Mercedes-Benz, BMW could join V8 Supercars under new CoF regulations

By Matt Brogan | March 15th, 2010

Mercedes-Benz Australia has announced it will reveal a race-ready AMG C63 at next week’s Australian round of the Formula One Grand Prix in Melbourne.

The car, which will be used as a ride-day event vehicle for VIPs and AMG customers, was revealed as rumours surface that both BMW and Mercedes-Benz have shown interest in competing in future V8 Supercar rounds.

Reports indicate that the German pair, and indeed others, could join the Holden/Ford duopoly as new ‘Car of the Future’ (CoF) regulations open the door to a more modern mix of engine technologies. The move could pave the way for a much wider range of cars and manufacturers to join the championship from 2012.

Although Mercedes-Benz HQ (in Germany) specifically forbids participation in motorsport from its local operations, there’s nothing stopping private teams or dealerships from entering the championship when the rules change.

Under the new regulations, Mercedes-Benz would be able to use such engines as its DTM 4.0-litre DOHC V8. The unit is said to be capable of developing 447kW, which is only 37kW shy of current V8 Supercar outputs.

So far BMW have said they are not interested in participating on a manufacturer level, but the same rules that apply to Mercedes-Benz mean we could see the Bavarian marque appear on track as privateer or dealer-backed entries.

It’s understood the new CoF regulations will allow the use of independent rear suspension and DOHC engines of differing capacities – though the eight-cylinder format must be retained. It is also believed the new rules will use a performance balancing system that allows new engines to compete against old.

Additionally, the new regulations mean other manufacturers with similarly spec’ed V8 engines would also be considered eligible for inclusion in the championship. Currently Audi, Honda, Hyundai, Lexus, Nissan and Toyota all offer engines fitting of the new parameters somewhere in their respective lineups around the globe.

The Australian round of the 2010 F1 Grand Prix championship takes place in Melbourne from March 25 to 28.

http://navelcontemplation.blogspot.com Supercujo

If AVESCO draft these rules properly, they could be responsible for an amazing resurgence in multi-manufacturer high performance production car based tin-top racing.

Devil’s Advocate

Not to mention “Uncle Tony” will have to change tact and “preach” to an all new demographic as the current “target audience” would not be thinking the same thoughts as you!!!
David

I hope they ditch the E85 and go back to PULP. I miss the flaming exhausts…

Splatcat

Watch the V8′s, the exhausts still flame.

Jake02

I hope that Merc and BWW enter it, because then I’d actually show some interest in it…
AAA

How do the V8 Supercars compare with the Merc’s V8 race cars?

deco

Well Merc’s engine doesn’t put out as much power firstly. I don’t think Germans will come and blitz the sport personally.
red

i think the merc engines are about 30 years ahead.
MrQuick

Merc’s V8s race in DTM, which compared to V8s here are quite advanced.

The have much better Aero, as in proper wind-tunnel stuff, engines all run restrictors and would be more powerful than V8s here, and suspension is quite a bit more tech.

If you want to compare laptimes, those Merc V8s would utterly smash the V8s here, simply due to the aero and suspension. I remember a while back a DTM team wanted to bring a DTM car to Bathurst because they were confident that they could do low 1:50s easy.

Mind you watching those Mercs race in DTM is quite boring in comparison to V8s here.

toxic_horse

Holden had much better aero than ford before the regulators forced them to have the same floorpan.

Millatime

Toxic Horse? More like lame donkey…

For more than 10 years the aero has been strictly regulated for parity.
Mad Max

Um actualy, they both have different floorpans. This change was mooted two years ago under “project blueprint” but neither Ford or Holden wanted it. The CoF changes that Mark Skaife has been working on basicaly means that both cars will adopt common floors, suspension, brakes etc with the engine and hang on body panels being unique between the different brands. The wheels and tires will go wider to allow other tyre manufacturers to bid for the sole supply contract as the current V8′s use a unique tyre size.

Devil’s Advocate

Mad Max, they already have common suspension, brakes, floor mounting point/subframe dimensions for mounting of suspension and other components, gearbox, differentials, wheelbase, ECUs, wheels, tyres etc.
Splatcat

Project Blueprint came in, in 2003

Robin Graves

I bet there are some bums winking at Holden right now. They have about 30 years of tech to catch up on. Imagine the rednecks when a conformadore gets annihilated by a Hyundai V8, will be another round of booing like when Richards creamed them in the GT-R. I’m all for it – will be awesome, and will drag Holden kicking and screaming from the dark ages, something that in the long run will benefit everybody.

craig simpson

How is holden behind 30 years in technology Miss graves. I’m not saying they are at german luxury technology levels but they certainly ain’t 30 years behind. Certainly there is nothing coming out of korea that will match the commodore or falcon for handling, comfort and storage.

In the forthcoming years, technologies such as hcci, stop/start and the updated dual mode hybrid will become available on commodore. This will allow the commdore to get close to about 5.0l/100km and better. Every time you change your batteries on a hybrid you are creating land pollution. batteries = poison. carbon = air for plants and trees!!!!!!

Secondly the v8supercars cotf will update the series to keep it inline with what they have been selling for years. independant suspension all round. Any other manufacturer would have to build up their own team. Do you think there is a chance in hell that hrt, triple8, FPV or Stone Brothers racing would be let go by ford or holden. Audi, BMW and Mercedes are are dream. They are all cutting down their motorsport budgets. A dealer team is not going to work either and full factory efforts are not allowed.

Radbloke

We’re talking V8 supercars here. Both Holden and Ford are currently using V8′s that were designed in the 50′s. This update should have come at least 10 years ago.
Oh and 5.0L/100km commodores? That’s classic! I dare say you will be waiting a long, long time for that day.
Robin Graves

You are in la-la land aren’t you? Pushrods are 1950′s mate, at least Ford has a modern V8 available right now. And you obviously havent heard of the Hyundai Genesis and Genesis Coupe, google them, you need to catch up yourself.

David

Robin, Ford’s OHC V8 is taller and heavier than Holden’s compact OHV “pushrod” engine. Four overhead cams versus one in the valley…

And Robin, I suggest you google “Zenvo ST1″ before you mouth off about pushrods.

Robin Graves

Doesnt matter what the Zenvo ST1 puts out or does or whatever, the fact is Pushrods belong in last century, valve train inertia. More mass equals heavier springs to stop valve bounce, which requires stronger pushrods, vicious circle that ends up in a compromise. A compromise that shouldnt exist in 2010. If GM went OHC, the engines would be better than they are now.
David

Grave Robber, you’re going on about compromises when OHC engines are typically larger, heavier, more complex and more costly than their “pushrod” rivals. Good luck with that.

Mad Max

The engines used in V8 supercars are pushrod NASCAR based engines. They are used due to their low cost as all of the development work was done over many years of NASCAR racing. If we are going to go down the path of multi OHC/multi valve, the cost will escalate and I don’t really think anybody wants to see that. Another point is that our V8 racing only runs a 7’500 rpm limit to aid durability and to keep costs low. NASCAR run a 9’500rpm limit so the engines are certainly strong.
Sure we can change to high tech engines at the blink of an eye. But my questions are, will it improve the racing, the spectacle, will crowds improve because we run high tech engines (will they really care at all) and will it cost the same or less than now? I suspect that the answer to all of these questions is, NO! So why change. My other question to all of the knockers of V8 racing is, how many races to you attend?

Robin Graves

“High Tech” – hardly. Datsun 1600 had OHC – I guess compared to GM rubbish that is a high tech car as the IRS system was better than the early IRS in Commodores. Time for GM to move on. And the only reason OHC engines would be heavier is because they are still made from cast iron rather than aluminium alloy. Its antiquated get over it like the rest of the world did 30 years ago.
David

Grave Robber, there’s more than one way to skin a cat. Remember that.

Hung Low

Cmon Robin, you are one of the few on here that has some extensive technical merit on cars, yet you cannot see the merit of a modern OHV engine?
Look at Chrylers new Hemi with variable valve timing and D.O.D, the adaptation of this technology on a OHV engine is quite an engineering feat in itself to allow it to be more emission compliant and economical than many other DOHC engines of similar capacity, the GM LS7 is a very impressive engine in its own right with a fat torque curve that only a OHV engine can give and its use of titanium and race spec internals!
The ACR Viper speaks for itself too with its Ring results!…yes they are all larger in capacity(ohv do not rev as well but also they require less revs for their max hp and torque, and generally they are under less stress than a high revving DOHC engine.

Hung Low

I do not favour any type of engine, I can appreciate that each has its place, even rotaries!
I will also add the merits of a pushrod engine:

In production- smaller physical size (a small block 350 is smaller than a modern 3.0L V6) means cars do not need to be designed around the engine i.e the same engine can be adapted to many models.

In racing: lower height = lower centre of gravity, a big advantage when a engine is essentially a ballast for handling.
Robin Graves

Not sure what you are getting at here. A 2V head will always have a narrower torque curve than a 4V head, the difference in charge velocity is a lot greater in a 2V than a 4V, so the volumetric efficiency is never going to be as good over a wide range of RPM. The GM engines are surprisingly good for a pushrod engine, so imagine how much better they would be with OHC? A little extra height is mainly camshafts and covers, the OHV still has to have rockers. Sorry but I disagree, OHV will never be as good as OHC and thats why nearly every other manufacturer now makes OHC, even Harley Davidson. Unless its a large diesel or stationary engine, OHV will always be a compromise. The higher up the rev band you go, the worse the compromise gets.

Devil’s Advocate

If/when Ford and Holden start loosing they will pick up their bat and ball and go home crying foul/poor us, threatening to start their own 2 make motor racing formula if they don’t get their own way. Hang on a second, hasn’t that happened before???

Andrew M

No, thats not quite right….

When Holden loses they now buy and convert the teams they cant beat.

On another note, I didnt think COTF details were released yet?? and also the focus of the COTF guidelines were to heavily address cost containment. They are actually in the process of regulating more components, so for this story to claim anyone can bring any old tech motor or suspension set up could spell doom for what has been very successful formula.
Heck, they have even just regulated the kind of wheel teams can buy and apparently it saves like $1500 per wheel.
Any major change to specs would just seem like a back flip.

deco

They didn’t buy them. Ford wouldn’t allow Team 888 to have red vodafone signage on the car.
Devil’s Advocate

Or that too Andrew M!!

Seriously, IIRC Mark Skaife is heavily involved with the COTF project to, exactly as you said, reduce costs. I believe it also involves working out if they can come up with a formula/set of rules that could allow other manufacturers to become involved without making the series favour a particular brand. ie like now with the cars already being essentially identical underneath the superficial panel work.

Technofreak

Oh stop teasing!! this would never happen! the bogans would never let it happen – yes I too see the boo’s and jeer’s if a real car actually became part of touring car racing in Australia again!

No, Australia is happy to hang back in the past while the rest of the world evolves…

Andrew M

Like it or not, you cant argue with success….
Devil’s Advocate

Try telling the “average” V8 Supercar punter that the race cars have more parts etc in common with each other than they have with the road car they are based off and see the response you get!!!!

deco

I’m pretty sure most people know this.

Devil’s Advocate

There are many I speak to that think otherwise. Let alone if you listen to an interview with most crowd members it makes you wonder otherwise!
craig simpson

how are these teams going to beat holden and ford’s top teams.

I don’t think the problems in the early 90′s had anything to do with european brands rather more to do with drunken idiots. I don’t recall an issue when the jaguar xjr’s won at bathurst in 1985.

I think the fact the gtr was 4wd and crashed and then declared the winner was the issue. I don’t have an issue with the european and japanese brands competing but european motorsport is very expensive. Just look at the dtm and F1.

The v8supercar series was designed to be relatively cheap in comparison and to produce close racing.

noj

Falcons and Commodores have become so close its almost feels like a one make series and one that is as boring as Bat Sh#t

noj

It will have to happen lets remember the Falcon will be imported soon. So no more Aussie built car series, I possibly think this has played a part in the decision.

Shak

The falcon wont be imported, it may just be built off of a global platform which is what all smart car makers are doing nowadays.

noj

It will be the Taurus.

Shak

These rules are very good for all involved. First of all it may spur the local teams to get the new tech now allowed, and allow a bit more fun into the race series. But judging by the examples at Clipsal last weekend, the series has all the excitement it needs.
ABMPSV

I will be a close racing. Yes Australian V8 is a bigger engine with more power but weights more too. DTM powerplants from Audi and Mercedes-Benz deliver an impressive output of approximately 480 hp. current-generation vehicles weigh in at 1,050 kilograms. maximum of three engines per two registered drivers is permitted.

F1MotoGP

DTM cars got 4 liter V8 not 5 liter V8 like here that is why power is less but less weight so it will be close!

Devil’s Advocate

Not to mention as touched on above, a single engine in DTM has to last a lot longer than an engine in the V8 Supercars with the rules a lot more harsh after an engine failure. This quest for reliability also reduces the power.

I agree with what MrQuick said above in that DTM is quite boring to watch, even worse than the V8s. A downside of too much aero! Then again, if people want to watch close racing there is always the motorbikes…

I have another idea, maybe the COTF should be like a larger version of the “Aussie Racers” formula, now THAT is close and exciting racing!!!

Andrew M

Another part of the COTF regulations is to increase the life of the engines.

Currently they are only good for about 1000k’s

Hugh Jorgan

Exiting times ahead but there’s no point in talking about which car would be faster (Aussie vs German). When they race in this supposed new series, it will under the same rules. If the “V8 supercar of the future” is making the cars cheaper, then I fail to see how they’ll let the Germans use the Aero they’ve spent millions developing. Currently AVESCO mandate wheel bases, drag coeffiecents, downforce, diff ratios at tracks etc etc. My guess is the very strict pariety in V8 supercar won’t change.

toxic_horse

Yes its true.

Chris

If the BMW Benz or Audi Mnufacturers dont tip in money, you wont see any of those cars on the grid. I am in the industry and no dealership could afford to field a competitive car, how many ford or holden dealers run cars now ??
Hung Low

They can bring in as many manufacturers as they want but parity will make this event as dull as Nascar!
Production racing is where its at i.e The Bathurst 12hr which screens highlights this Saturday at 13:00 on Channel 7!………good scrap in the wet between an HSV R8 and BMW 335i(John Bowe).
It was not the best year for the event as the rain took its toll and the pace car was out frequently, but this class of racing needs more support as it is what Bathurst used to be…factory car racing!

toxic_horse

I agree. they should let the v8 supercars do what they want but the Bathurst 1000 should go back to production cars.
Will

Gosh Hung Low, regarding the Production Car series there is actually an area of overlap. Congratulations!

The Original Stevo

The only thing that resembles what you can buy on the showroom floor is a few panels and a badge. How about going back to production cars such as it was in the early 70s. The cars could have a limit of $100,000 value (maybe even selling 300 to the public at that price per year).
Fiesta ECOnetic

If they dont let others in to race V8 supercars will be dead by 2015. Fact. It will be called V8 commodore race

Will

Whilst I agree that the V8 Supercars in the current incarnation is due for extinction over coming years, any facsimile of a Commodore will be manufactured either in China or Korea by 2015.

ABMPSV

New formula should be on cars which I can buy at the dealer than teams could change only ..say, brakes, shock absorbers, tyres. They should use only say 3-5 engines a year. I would enjoy it more. Todays V8 race cars got nothing to do what I buy in the shop. I would change Bathurst to 12h race.

F1MotoGP

What about include diesel cars too. In the WTCC diesel and petrol cars race next to each other we could do it here.

ABMPSV

I am sure with new rules Mercedes will do very well. I just checked the new E class 220CDI. What a car!!! Engine: 2143cc, four cylinder, Power: 125kW @ 3000-4200rpm
Torque: 400Nm @ 1400-2800rpm, Top Speed: 210 (electronically limited), 0-100km/h: 8.3 seconds, Fuel Consumption: (As Tested) 7.9 litres/100km. Price $80,900. Holden Caprice WM cost $75490. Mercedes is a better choice!
http://www.sydneymercedes.com.au Mercedes-Benz Sydney

I enjoy watching almost all forms of motor sport. Having another item on the menu to pick from will be appreciated. I think it will help expand the sport and give more drivers opportunities for good competition and career development. It’s a welcome move!
Shak

One thing many people have not picked up on is the fact that any car in V8SA have to run on E85, and i dont think MB, or BMW have any BIO-Fuel engines in any of their global catalogues. Even if they do, i dont think they would want to spend R&D money to try and develop one to suit a single race category. But lets hope they find some way around the newfound rules and regulations.
peter

i think that v8 supercars should not let anyone else enter other than ford or holden. Lets keep it aussie
http://lololol bocajbee

M3? M3? M3? M3? M3? M3 ? M3? M3>>>>>>>>>>>>Falcadores
http://Audi Robj

Same rules for all so bring it on. It seems Falcons days are numbered right. So Holden V’s the world.
Richard

I used too love the touring car championship of old but sinse the Holden/Ford monopoly I hate it. This is the best news ever!
Mithra

it’ll never happen, as long as holden and ford can keep going as they are without sinking cash into it they’ll keep backing it, even though people like me who are motorsport crazy don’t watch it because its just old school bogan cars.
bring back group 3 I say, let EVERYONE play, or if its ‘super cars’ they want, why not based them on road cars, then go ‘super’ like DTM or Super GT, we have the basis (Australian GT championship) hell even formula fords lap quicker than those bogan pieces of junk