Top 10 automotive brands

By Alborz Fallah | July 31st, 2007

A survey conducted by Interbrand and BusinessWeek (the New York-based global business media organisation) has put together the top 10 automotive brands, ranked by brand value.

2007 Interbrand Ranking
Top100 Ranking	Automotive Ranking	Auto Brand	Brand Value(US $ Bil)
6	1	Toyota	32.1
7	2	M. Benz	23.6
13	3	BMW	21.6
19	4	Honda	18
41	5	Ford	9
54	6	VW	6.5
68	7	Audi	4.9
72	8	Hyundai	4.5
75	9	Porsche	4.2
92	10	Lexus	3.4
98	11	Nissan	3.1

Toyota has once again taken first place with a brand value estimated at US$32.1 billion, putting the Japanese manufacturer ahead of Mercedes Benz which has an estimated value of $23.6 billion USD.

The big winner though is Honda which ranks ahead of not only Ford but VW, Audi, Porsche and a whole lot more! Another notable mention in the top 10 is Hyundai which has managed to nudge Porsche out of eight place.

adam

Wheres GM or Crysler!?
http://www.caradvice.com.au/ alborz

Somewhere down the very bottom
rick Harris

No GM ? Times sure have changed……….I guess the Daewoo curse has struck………..
adam

lol so much for Fords, demise…
Glen

As much as I’d love where Ford is atm I think it may be helped by its premium motor group (jag, Aston, Volvo) but still a great result. And the thing is I think Ford are now at Rock bottom so should be starting to head back up very shortly
oh what a con job

I’ d like to see the questions asked in this survey. the average toyota owner is ignorant of most aspects of how a car works so how can they critisise it if they think torque steer is normal. Would the distance travelled by these cars be factored into the data? As with all these things the results are predictable toyotatoyatatoyotatoyotatoyatatoyotatoyotatoyatatoyota
I think it is a crock. I can’t wait untill these darwin bombing fridge makers are put in there place. europe wont cop the 10 gen corolla and it will be the begining of the realisation that toyota is a brand for dorks, its the new volvo, they suck, yet everyone falls for the media bias and the fact that the low tech cars they make were once well assembled with good components. its 2007 not 1994.
http://AustralianCarAdvice Dingo

Con Job – suck eggs dork because the ‘BIG T’ is screwing GM to the wall and crying princesses like yourself have your nose out of joint. I haven’t seen Japan start a war for over 60 years unlike the yanks who are never not at war. Toyota might be for dorks but Holdens are for uneducated bogons who think rattly, squeeky, poor quality, oil dripping, falling apart cars are cool. Yeah right… sucked in Con Job and i hope Toyota keeps bugging you for years yet. I suppose Daewoo’s are cool aswell… MORON !!

TOYOTA – 32 BILLION

GM – BROKE, POOR, POVO DEBT RIDDENED UNSOLVENT WONNA BE’S.

The thing is Con Job… dicks like yourself are the dumb pricks shedding tears from those watery little girly eyes. Another good thing about all of this – proves how SOFT people like yourself really are.
Andrew. M

dingo where did con job say he was a GM fan?? i hope you arent biased against GM. but i suppose thats where those sort of comments come from (GM fans).

anyway Glen i dont think that the ford figure would include jag and aston. as it is worded “brand value” that means to me the same as “make” and also the fact that Lexus is listed different to toyota.

yes good point on ford though, they are prob at their worst right now and once the global unification kicks in to make them more efficient you would have to say they would be muscling at the top of the tree.

big notable mention to Hyundai though. they sure have turned around after breaking in to the market with “cheap” cars
Paul

QUOTE = As much as I’d love where Ford is atm I think it may be helped by its premium motor group (jag, Aston, Volvo) but still a great result

Ummm what now? They have 1/3 the brand value of the top placed Toyota, I wouldnt say its a great result.

As for “Oh what a con job”, mate your blabbing on about Toyota owners, what your talking about is more reliability surveys etc (which n e way knowing what torque is means nothing, either car has to go to dealership many times or it doesnt)… from my understanding this brand valuation is based on a set methodology, nothing to do with questionaires or any of that crap. Here is one example of how they calculate it from overall top brands:

“THE FIRST STEP IS figuring out what percentage of a company’s revenues can be credited to a brand. (The brand may be almost the entire company, as with McDonald’s Corp., or just a portion, as it is for Marlboro.) Based on reports from analysts at J.P. Morgan Chase, Citigroup, and Morgan Stanley, Interbrand projects five years of earnings and sales for the brand. It then deducts operating costs, taxes, and a charge for the capital employed to arrive at the intangible earnings. The company strips out intangibles such as patents and management strength to assess what portion of those earnings can be attributed to the brand.
FINALLY, THE BRAND’S strength is assessed to determine the risk profile of those earnings forecasts. Considerations include market leadership, stability, and global reach—or the ability to cross both geographic and cultural borders. That generates a discount rate, which is applied to brand earnings to get a net present value. BusinessWeek and Interbrand believe this figure comes closest to representing a brand’s true economic worth.”

http://bwnt.businessweek.com/brand/2006/

So you couldnt be anymore wrong, just hack it that Toyota are the worlds best car manufacturer. In fact, if you look at that link above they are 7th in overall WORLDS best brands.
Paul

In fact now I see that the example I gave was the exact same people just 2006… so yes that is exactly how they calculate brand value NOT from asking customers questions, maybe a more appropriate name would have been Oh what an idiot instead of the one you chose ‘Oh what a con job.
Andrew. M

paul did you leave example else where cause you havent posted here yet. what are you saying?
Paul

Maybe example wasnt the word, the quote I just gave… you can see it right? ‘Oh what a con job’ was suggesting that Toyota werent actually number 1 because survey of customers isnt accurate, he is wrong, this isnt a customer survey… its based on financial figures as the quote highlights.
Andrew. M

yeah i got the last bit though…..agreed i dont know who he was trying to con
Graeme

GM is not a brand. Ever seen a car with a ‘GM’ badge on the front. The real point is there’s no sign of Chevrolet or Cadillac on the list.
oh what a con job

bite me ding-bat your the one crying because someone has critisised the pathetic cars you love so much. i dont love holdens but they are a car designed for the US then well tuned to our roads. Paul your comments are noted and i did miss the point in the artical, now i know it’s just an accounting exercise where I assume the manufacturer supplies the data. Go toyota your the best and always were. How could i be so wrong maybe all the toyatas ive driven (late models not the good old stuff) were secretly sabotaged by ford and gm. Toyota wont last at the top because market leadership is just that, they must be innovative and bold. They can’t just copy everyones ideas or hire everyones talent with their big bucks. I dont count cool looking beige interiors or “we cant pass a frontal offset crash without it” knee airbags as innovation. oh forgot they invented the “o2 advantage” a combustion engine that mixes air with fuel wow never been done before. or the vvti innovation of timing your exhuast outlets only, sorry they just caught up and now time both inlet and outlet valves ( not that they get any pull but it sounds good. You toyota plebs dont realise they have dudded you for years and are rich from selling cars to you all “sucker” is the word ha ha ha cant admit I’m right?
Paul

Lol Toyota dudding people… come one they sell some of the most reliable and quality vehicles going around. They havent built their empire as far as I know based on being massive innovaters. Thats more Honda, they are the ones who have the adverts! What I see as dudding people would be say selling a 2 star safety rated Barina… and the rest of all that Korean trash that Holden are now selling in Aus under their name. Toyota are rich because they have deserved it, the Corolla and Camry are two of the best vehciles (over all their years) that have ever existed in terms of doing what they are designed to do, get you from A to Z for as long as possible… along with doing it in safety and comfort.
adam

That was true 10+ years ago, every other auto maker had caught up to Toyota and they primarily sell on reputation these days.

Wasn’t it Toyota who just recently admitted that there quality had slipped and they now have to refocus again.
They still can’t make class leading vehicles for style or dynamics.
You right, they do a great job getting from A to B, nothing more than that though and less than what Mazda, Honda and many more are able to achieve as an overall package.
When was the last time Toyota won a major award, eg wheels?
Astro Boy

Yeah ford is a surprise, they actually returned a $750 million profit in the April June quarter. That profit was reduced by the north american section which is still losing money. The problems GM and Ford have are more to do with the costs of labour. Ford and GM in north america have to pay for pensions and various other costs related to retiring labour. Toyota do not have this problem as they have not been providing such benefits to their employees. Toyota has this massive advantage over FORD and GM, they dont have old people dragging them down sapping money out of them.
oh what a con job

I don’t know why you think i love holdens Paul my spelling is not that bad is it? But holden have a smart strategy, make the safest car by giving the driver an intense fear of crashing, therefore they are more attentive and won’t speed. Ford Rules!
Sam™

audi is best out of all of them

toyota are now cutting corners and will lose reliability in time me thinks

meh @ M.benz and bmw. always overrated
http://AustralianCarAdvice Dingo

Yes, some brands have caught up to Toyota for quality and reliability and the predominate of those are other highly respected Japanese brands like Honda, Subaru, Mazda etc of whom i also hold in the highest of regard. The fact is though, Ford and GM have not and struggle to match the finest from Japan and Europe. Infact, explan how Hyundai has advanced far more in the quality, reliability and refinement of thier vehicles then the American counterparts… ??

People like yourself ‘Con Job’ are the fools that keep critising Toyota yet each analysis that is released in any part of the world always rates Toyota (and other respected brands like Honda) as one of the better manufactuers while Lexus has evolved to become of the worlds most respected and regarded brands. Thier advancement into supercars is sure to boost thier image even further while i have little doubt that the TRD brand in Australia will evolve with respect.

However, i do acknowledge that Toyota has had some growing pains in recent times and something that Toyota has come forward and highlighted themselves and i have absolute confidance that they will resolve thier shortcomings that thier reputation was biult upon and if it was any company that would that this very seriously it would be them. GM however, never gave a sh*t about quality, reliability & dependability because it not apart of thier corporate behaviour but have only started taken it more seriously in recent years simply becauase they have to – they have no other choice otherwise they will sink. Here is a good example – the rear main seal was a consistant and ongoing problem for 15 years yet Holden continued to sell Commodores by the thousands without any concern what so ever… not only is that pathetic but just a typical corporate behaviour of GM.

ADAM – WHEELS has no repected what so ever because it is very clear cut that thier loyality lies with Holden. Independants that do not depend on advertising income from manufactuers like RAC, NRMA etc are alot more professional and objective in thier reviews and have awarded Toyota many awards up and above Holden. According to WHEELS everything Holden does is great for local motoring and would rate a Jackaroo as a better off-road vehicle the a ’70 series.
http://AustralianCarAdvice Dingo

Then we have Holden who trys to con the Australian population that they are an Australian company making cars for Australian conditions. WHAT CRAP…

Holden hasn’t been Australian for over 60 years when they were 100% purchased by yanks hence making them an American company. Making cars for Australian conditions – yeah right… travel inland to the vast remote, unforgiving land of this great continant and who rules the roost here… Toyota – that’s for sure – not Holden or Ford.

The very backbone of our economy that is also the very DNA of our society is the Resource Sector, Heavy Industries, Farmers, Agriculture and Tradies from all walks of live predominateLY drive Toyota or Nissan workhorses… why – because they have proven beyond doubt to be the most rugged for THE REAL AUSTRALAIN CONDITIONS. Yet, If Holden is SO AUSTRALIAN how come their workhorses are few and far between… ?? Explian that… !!

What about the Snowy Mountain Scheme – one of the most historic Australain undertakings of all time. Tell me Con Job… were the hell was Holden then ?? I’ll tell ‘ya – no were to seen but the humble Toyota slugging it out day in/day out. Infact, Holden doesn’t even sponsor our very own national sport… pathetic for a so called Australian Company. Thier cars are only good for driving on the roads that Toyota helped to biuld.

If that is not a ‘Con Job’ from Holden then what is. I have far more respect for Toyota for what it has done for this great nation then Holden or Ford because if it was not for the industries, miners, farmers and tradies that Toyota so proudly serves then our economy would be nothing.
http://AustralianCarAdvice Dingo

I’ll go again… most Holden vehicles in the past have been nothing short of being trash. The Sunbird, Torana, Monaro and then the Commodore have all been troublesome cars. The VL appeared with the Nissan donk that coincidantly was a good engine under Nissan guise until those genuis Holden engineers got thier mittens onto it and stuffed it. Then came the VN – VT era that once again engineered models that have been troublesome, unreliable and dismally engineered that have showed no grace or dinity beyond the first few years – Basically, they literally fell apart as they age.

The SB Barina arrived on our shores and once again failed under our more ardious conditions with overheating issues, cracked heads and a pathetic A/C that was reclassified as a Air Cooler instead because it failed to cope with the conditions. The TR Astra was an absolute pig with the one of the most aweful drivetrains ever to be sold here and now they are trying to sell us 2 star crash rated Barina’s and all that other pathetic Daewoo trash.

And lets not forget all those names that came and gone over the years including recent vehicles like the Crewman, Adventra, Jackaroo, Zafira, Frontera and most recently the Vectra and Monaro. Those are only a few Holdens that have all tried and failed for various reasons and i can name a sh*t lot more like the Calibra, Cruze or the Ozzie 5.0 V8 replaced by a oil drinking, piston slapping, siezure prone pig.

Lets not forget the issues that have already plagued the VE with 3 recalls to date and published letdowns. WHEELS has identified shortcomings including the Statemans that dislodged a suspension rubber of somesort while under review and the fact that MOTOR encountered 12 seperate faults from 12 differant tested variants including those never ending electrical gremlins when a fan failed to engage then all of a sudden just bursts to life and the boot on a Caprice that decided to open by itself while driving along.

Then we get the all the ‘HOO HAA’ about how far forward Holden quality has advanced but that leaked Australian Quality Survey revealed that EVERYSINGLE HOLDEN MODEL WAS RATED ‘BELOW AVERAGE’. That right… not one single Holden could even score par while some were also rated as the absolute worse in thier class like the Adventra and Commodore second last to the Falcon.

And some more – then we also get all the ‘HOO HAA’ about how safe their vehicles are yet not 1 single current Holden model out scores a Toyota. Infact, they are rated with less stars in many classes while the Aurion bettered the much hyped VE and only marginally bettered the aged BA/BF.

I have only just started about how some companies try to fool the customer and i believe Holden would have to be the worst offender of all. To me, i’ll take a Toyota over a Holden or Ford any day of my life.
http://AustralianCarAdvice Dingo

Astro Boy – you blame the pension payout for GM and Ford’s dismal financial failings yet that is just 1 of a string of reasons. Others include manufacturing inefficancies, high recall costs, declined customer base, poor managerial directions, corruption and less then favourable corporate behaviour to name only a few.

Infact, Toyota is renouned for being one of the most efficiant vehicle manufactuers in the world while thier KAIZEN Philosophy is so highly regarded that even multi-national corporates like Rio Tinto now promote it amoungst it’s own ranks. The thing Astro -the corporte behaviour of companies like Honda and Toyota is a damn lot more disciplined then that of tier American counterparts. Thier focus and foresight is also on the boil while the recent successes (Toyota, Honda) and failings (GM, Ford, Crysler) are undisputable examples.
Andrew. M

Dingo,
why did you make us read all that. “the con job” is not a holden or GM fan nor am i or anyone else who has posted here as yet….. so you wasted your fingers typing cause no one will get upset with what you just said.

one thing though is so what if toyota sponsors “australias own sport”? they dont do it for a favour do they. its called advertising. they get a 100% tax deduction for it. so they dont do it cause they are nice blokes. even schemes where they donate vehicles for…. its called exposure and again 100% tax deduction. all this is more benifit to toyota than it is to AFL or whereever they throw their vehicles.

the other thing is its a bit tough to say the falcon ute isnt loved by the tradies.
the falcon ute appears to be the most loved by the tradies if you ask me… have a look at the sales…..
I am a tradie and ill keep my falcon ute anyday over the Hilux for many reasons but ill only go into it if you wont be bored.

as for inland i think they use toyotas and nissans, well because they have no opposition from ford or GM in 4×4′s. once again its no credit to toyota because they are not doing anyone favours. its called business
http://AustralianCarAdvice Dingo

Andrew – Toyota has their advertising methods just like every other automotive manufactuer like Holden and Ford racing on Sundays to sell on Mondays. Regardless, sponsoring our very own national sport is putting a financial foot forward that Holden has not done especially considering that they try and con our popultaion that they are an Australian company (of which they are NOT).

Holden and Ford has offered thier various competition against Toyota and Nissan for years with thier utes (and that failed Adentra and Jackaroo)Rodeos, Couriers and Rangers but none of them have been successful to the same degree as thier Japanese counterparts. Regardless, why not considering Holden supposedly provides vehicles for Australian Conditions.

I acknowledge i may have gone overbaord by writing a novel (sorry) but i do hope that some readers acknowledge my reasons why i believe Holden and Ford are not the companies that they like to believe they are. Besides, you gotta admit that what i put forward is on the boil so there is no denying that !!
Paul

QUOTE = Wasn’t it Toyota who just recently admitted that there quality had slipped and they now have to refocus again.
They still can’t make class leading vehicles for style or dynamics.
You right, they do a great job getting from A to B, nothing more than that though and less than what Mazda, Honda and many more are able to achieve as an overall package.
When was the last time Toyota won a major award, eg wheels?

Dunno if they admitted their quality had slipped but common sense would dictate that producing say 1 million vehicles a year wont have the same quality assurance as 1 vehicle a year. It’s the side effect of producing more as they have had to due to demand, but even with such increases in demand I would still back their quality to be superior to that of the local brands here and many others.

As for last award… umm Best Large Car by NRMA and some other mob, Toyota Aurion, 2007. There are more as well, but Im not going to bother digging them all up. They have many class leaders in terms of sales which at the end of the day, is a great indication of what is the best vehicle OVERALL (So price, features, quality, reliability, performance and every other factor considered when buying a car) especially when you have a foreign brand getting them which usually are at a disadvantage as they don’t have the local image to fall back on, ie Ford and Holden.
adam

Paul…

No, producing a larger amount of vehicles is no excuse for falling quality, they dropped the ball, like many other manufacturers do.

But Toyota are NOT the best Paul!

They can sell, no doubt there, but they aren’t class leading…thats reality.
As i said, honda and mazda do better as overall packages.
Paul

As I said… the market isnt stupid, they buy the best overall package… obviously Toyota is doing something right. Lets not just look at what the package has on paper but other issues inheritant with the brand, such as quality and reliability

As for producing more meaning less quality, sorry but this is true, you cant tell me that a manufacturer like say Lambbo who only make a very limited number of vehicles and all by hand from the ground up will have worse reliability than a manufacturer who has to produce millions each year. There are going to be more quality issues. And anyway Im not even sure if they have admitted it tbh and they are still well above what the locals here have to offer so who cares.
adam

Paul..

You love Toyota regardless of whats perception or reality…
thats why Toyota sell, just take a look at yrself.
no more needs to be said.
http://AustralianCarAdvice Dingo

ADAM – i am going to burst your bubble big time. Lads like yourself go on about Toyota perceptioned quality but the VERY FACT IS – IT IS NOT PERCEPTION.

Remember that leaked Australian Quality quality about 2-3 months ago… well, Toyota scored ABOVE AVERAGE or DOMINATE in every single segement where as companies like Holden scored BELOW AVERAGE in every single segment. Infact, Holden even scored dead last in some areas so feel free to take time and re-read through that.

Also, CNN Money.com released thier extensive survey late last year of the 47 most reliable vehicles… Toyota and Honda alone filfilled 32/47 of those postions while more of those were from Toyota.

Apart from that, JD Powers and associates for many years have rated Toyota as one of the forefunners (Lexus towards very top of course)while thier very latest survey rated them in 7th position only betten by marques such as Lexus, Porsche, Mercedes Benz, Lincoln, BMW and the only non-premium brand… Honda. I wouldn’t even expect a mass produced brand to beat marques but if you really wanted to go into it then Lexus was ranked 2nd behind Porsche.

I guess what i am getting at is that your spill is nothing more then just sh*t words because various statistics from renouned resources prove you very wrong indeed. If you don’t believe me then feel free to persue these facts yourself and that goes for any other blogger who may be reading this.

Get your FACTS RIGHT buddy and stop spilling crap with out anything to support such non-sense what so ever. My comebacks however is supported by various recent analysis and like i said… feel free to check it all out yourself and don’t come back on this site until you have. Take some advice – check out that leaked Australian Quality Survey first to see how pathetically Holden and Ford performed as against reputable brands like Toyota, Honda, Mazda and even Hyundai.
adam

Dingo…i’m curious what field of work do you do?

If you believe one study well, you support my ‘Toyota’ theory also.

these reports are not black and white, many factors come into play.

Ask yourself…how is it that Lincoln which is pure Ford in NA can outrate Ford and match the prestige brands?? being the same damn vehcile!?

factors that you and many fail to take into account…

1.Dealership experience, point of sale and aftersales service.
2.The expecation of Toyota buyers compared to Holden buyers…Toyota USED to be the best 15-20 years ago, the reality is most have caught up, think about the fact that a one time Toyota buyer, like our Paul!
Its been pointed out before that is a Toyota lover had a problem with a Toyota they are less likely to report that problem as opposed to a holden or Ford buyer.
surveys are not foolproof, ever lied on one yrself?

3.Also what sells the best is not always the best! god if a crowd jumped off a bridge, would u? i guess not…
many a better vehicle will not always outsell an inferior one…
4. Marketing…if i have to eplain this one, why should i even bother…

Yes there are reports out there…can you tell me how they work exactly?
yes Toyota quality is great, but thats not to say many aren’t either.

Try this, feel the air vent rotation knobs on an 04 camry..feel some of the plastics quality…then try an 04 Ba falcon…one has rubber coated knobs and one doesn’t…one example…toyota is not as far ahead as you think.
Where i work, with cars, we have as many problems with Toyotas as any other make or model.
If you believe everything you read, your a fool.
adam

by the way…some of the reports you ‘refer’ too state that some of the new model Fords in NA are matching and beating Toyota models…yes…perception is far from reality.
http://AustralianCarAdvice Happy Dingo

Adam – for some time now i have been employed by Rio Tinto but previously to that i was employed as a Spare Parts Interpreter (4yrs) for Holden during the VT era so i too have industry knowledge. Although my time with Holden wasn’t a negative one, i was however absolutely gob samcked and dismayed for the entire time of the absolutely dismal quality and unreliability of Holden vehicles – it truely blew me away how such poorly engineered vehicles (not all of them though – the Vectra was good as with the Rodeo) could sell so well. The VT sold in numbers because it looked great in that era but the engineering of the car was incredibly poor in standards compared to that of Toyota and Honda. Just 1 single example of so many is the Rear Main Seal that Holden allowed to persist for nearly 15 years… 15 years !!. Companies like Toyota would have sourced a immediate fix just like the lifting dash on earlier wide body Camry’s.

SB Barina’s and TR Astra’s were absolutely horriable cars that struggled with our conditions. Thier A/C’s were so inadequate for our more ardious environment that they were reclassified as Air Collers instead. They also had overheating problems, cracked heads while the exterior mouldings required replacment from brand new because they had faded before even hitting our shores.

New Statesmans used to go to the local Panel Beater to have doors, bootlids etc re-aligned because they weren’t fitted correctly from new. These examples are so few of so many that i could spend an hour describing that weren’t just one of issues but common and highly regular. The GEN3 – awful !!

The fact is Adam – ALL manufactures and all cars have thier warts but some have more then others while others have more yet again. Toyota certainly has theirs (just like every other manufactuer) but Holden and Ford engineering in Australia has NEVER even nearly been a match of that of Toyota’s. Time after time, published surveys indicate this and that leaked Australian Quality Survey is a fantastic example.

Like it or not, Commodores and Falcons may be big comfortable RWD vehicles but they are also very poor quality ones at that and literally rattle, squeek and fall apart with age. Basically, they have a tenancy to be troublesome and DO NOT AGE WITH ANY GRACE OR DIGNITY WHAT-SO-EVER !!

Personally, i want a lot more in a car then this and find it in more reputable Japanese and European brands not American counterparts.
Andrew. M

Happy dingo,
adam points out a good thing in QUOTE……..
“Its been pointed out before that is a Toyota lover had a problem with a Toyota they are less likely to report that problem as opposed to a holden or Ford buyer.surveys are not fool proof”

yep i betcha the average person that buys a commy or falcon is more particular about it since they are buying it because they care what it is for starters.
honestly i reckon 95% of people that buy toyotas just buy them because they are just a car and as long as it goes they dont care.
im a picky bugger myself and maybe too picky but i dont believe my falcon or falcons in general are as bad as you go on about. i had my car in the beaters at the start of the year and it went back 5 times until i was reasonably happy with,it and this included visits with an assesor to back up my worries so i guess you could say i am picky but it also means if something is wrong i will notice and wont let it go
on the other hand my dad has an EF falcon with around 350,000+ k’s on it now i guess,and he is the complete opposite. if something is wrong like alignment or knocking shock or whatever as long as it still starts he doesnt care. and as for servicing i dont think he knows of the word.
in the wrap i am surprised how well it still goes considering the lack of attention it gets and i think when i drive it i will break it. but it still goes extremely well and nothing has fallen off it. the only thing i could truely fault it on is the handling has gotten a bit sloppy which isnt bad considering the miles and the shocking road he travels to get home. so what im saying is ford hasnt heard any complaints from him so is it fair to assume that he is driving the perfect model? (prob not)

interesting to see that your experience only comes from the holden side meaning to me you havent seen the equivalent toyota or ford side of things to make a fair judgement.
adam

happy Dingo…

I have worked for Holden, Ford, a spare parts company a broker company and now an auction company…
and no…i didn’t work for Ford and holden out of loyalty…it just happen to be…
Now…i agree with the issues you have listed for Holden, but take a look at any old camry, magna anything…they age just as badly…
Your also fogetting that the VE commodore and Holden in general, Ford too have changed since the days of VT.

The wide body camry…

Clicking brake caliper when you stop in reverse, cracked, swelling dash panels, door trims that fall off, dash siwtches and controls that break and lose there markings, engine mounts that can wear prematuarly…etc…

This goes for BMWs and MERCs too they age no better than the mainstream brands…I’ve seen an 01 camry that had a rear demister problem that costs a small fortune to fix…
I’ve seen a ton of 04 taragos that have issues with engine lights that stay on…

like you said all have issues, some more than others, but the clincher is…Toyota has many more than many like to understand, believe and accept.
And as i said many Toyota buyers will not mention issues as they refuse to believe that their ‘Toyota’ is not truley a perfect vehicle.

Wasn’t it Toyota who used the Holden starfire 4cyl engine in early 80s coronas?? or they used the commodore for the lexcen?
yeah Toyota is perfect…not.

When Toyota can make a car that doesn’t look like a fridge and handling dynamics that don’t suck, then you might have one of the best car manufacturers in the world…not yet.
New corolla for instance…cleen sheet design…yet we have a car with a 1.8 slug that can’t match the mazda 3s or focus 2.0 for power or fuel consumption and handling dynamics that still don’t beat the older opposition!? why not? all this from the richest car company in the world…!
But…it’s a ‘Toyota’! nah sorry give me a mazda 3 with the same reliability but puts a lil bit of fun and emotion into driving, i’d rather drive a stainless steel side by side, ice despenser fridge than a conventional safe as house white fridge.

their quality slipped recently, they admit that and before you use the excuse that they are building more…i could always use that excuse for GM and Ford also.
http://AustralianCarAdvice Happy Dingo

Adam – Toyota is globally renouned for producing quality, reliable, dependable and durable vehicles that companies like Holden and Ford simple have not been able to match. No one has ever said that Toyota’s are faultless because that is stupid… even a Rolls Royce comes with faults but regardless Holden(GM) and Ford have engineered and manufactuered some of the worst cars ever to grace the roads and our roads have been no exception.

Unlike Holden and Ford, when Toyota identifies an issue with thier vehicles they investigate WHY and determine a responsable FIX as soon as possible unlike Holden who allowed the rear main seal issue to persist for 15 graceful years… not only is that dismal but pathetic on thier behalf. Like i mentioned earlier, many Holdens and Fords are of poor quality and simply do not age with any grace or dignity what-so-ever and a typical Toyota will prove be to far less troublesome then a typical Holden or Ford and this has been proven beyond any doubt for many generations. Even trying to compare Holdens quality to that of Toyota is just desperate.

You talk of fridge cars – just about everything that Holden has sold over the years have been no better – Camira’s, Jackaroo’s, Barina’s, some Astra’s (TR), Rodeo’s, Zafira’s, Frontera’s are just some examples of past vehicles while it’s current fleet is probably even worse with Daewoo Barina’s, Viva’s and that dog awful Epica. And… lets no forget the Cruze, Combo, Tigra and even the Omega… tell me Adam – how do any of those vehicle ingnite any passion beyond that of a Fridge.

What’s Holden explanation for introducing Daewoo’s to it’s fleet with that horrid 2 star Barina, poor excuse Viva and the Epica that is based on a 10 year old design. Then we have the Commodore persisting with that clunky 4 speed box and the somewhat harsh, ruff/ gruff and vocal Alloytech that is barely better then then the old Buick. Lets not forget that horrable GEN3 that drank oil, slapped pistons and sometimes even seized. Infact, some example were indentified to have had some pistons completely void of rings.

The worst car ever that Toyota sold in Australia was the Lexcen while the best car ever that Holden sold was the Appollo. I’ll also use this opportunity that remind you that Holden has been one of the most inconsistant automotive companies in Australia and has virtually rebadged just about every car over the last couple of decades because it hasn’t been able to engineer it’s own. The MB/MF/MH Barina was a great little machine because it was a Suzuki while they have borrowed some of Toyota’s examples as i just listed as well as Izuzu engines and of course Nissans L6 for the VL which co-incidantly was a reliable engine in Nissan guise until those genius Holden engineers got thier mittens onto it and stuff it.

And, regarding Toyota’s business behaviour – don’t ever critiise it because it is very obvious that it has been extremely successful considering thier MASSIVE WEALTH – maybe GM and Ford should sit up and take note how a REAL PROFITABLE ENTITY is guided instead of hemerouaging Billions of dollors every passing year.

And before i end it here – explain to me how Holden dismally scored BELOW AVERAGE IN EVERY SINGLE SEGMENT. It suggests very little for any company when all of it’s product range is rated BELOW ORDINARY against it’s competition. Toyota however scored ABOVE AVERAGE or DOMINATE in every competed segment so the facts are right there to prove that Toyota engineers a vehicle that is not only better in quality but in refinement, reliability, dependability and durability that it has so rightfully earned it’s reputation upon.

I agree that Toyota has experianced some growing pains in recent times and that has been admitted by them themselves and have currently redevoted themselves to fix thier shortcomings and if it is any company that has the capacity to do so – it is them.

Ooh yeah – what about the latest round of NCAP testings… Holden bragged how safe it’s new VE is but only marginaly bettered Fords 5 year yr old design while been bettered by the Aurion. Infact, no Holden eqivalent to Toyota actually betters them when it comes to safety ratings. Holden only manages to match or score less – not better. And i’ve never seen a decent off-road vehicle to competantly compete against Toyota’s heavies such as the Hilux, Prado and Cruisers considering Holden likes to PRETEND that they make cars for Australian Conditions.
Adam

happy dingo…

Take a look a round at 15 year old cars, toyotas age no better…they age all the same!
I agree Holden rebadged daewoos are crap, didnt say all of Holdens or any other range apart form toyota are all great.

But drive an aurion, ve, Bf 380 and u will come back saying how boring the aurion is!
sorry to say Fords euro offerings are far more interesting than most of the competition from toyota…

feista drives better than a yaris and is just as reliable, same as focus against the new corolla! the new falcon will have a very good chance of beating the aurion…

So tell me for such a fat, greedy less profitable Ford to be able to match Toyoyas reliability and beat them on a more desirable car and yet toyota is the richest car maker!? how does that work out, they should be the best! and they are not.
there is no reason toyota can’t make a reliable car with DESIRABILITY!

I also mentioned to you in the states that Ford is matching and beating many toyota models…

Now Toyota used to be the best, now everyone else is catching up…you want to continue to live in the late 80s and early 90s?? cause thats what your doing, things change.

Oh, by the way…the Aurion recieved no more crash safety star ratings than the Aurion…4 stars wasn’t it??
So how is that any better than VE?

Come 08rion falcon i’d be very curious to see how the Aurion fairs, not just the VE.
http://AustralianCarAdvice Dingo

Adam – you are absolutely dead set WRONG !!

15 years ago we are referring to such vehicles as VN Commies EF/EL Falcons and SV10 Camry’s (i think that it correct). There is absolutely noway that any resonably level headed person would say that the SV10 Camry aged worst then the VN & EF/EL. Come on Adam… get real will ‘ya – the VN was nothing more then an absolute pig of a car and certainly one of the worst quality vehicles ever produced by any manufactuer in that era.

Lets move forward a wee bit to the next generation of EA/EB/ED Falcons, VR/VS Commodores and the probably the most dependable Camry ever made – the bland but ever humble widebody. The WideBody Camry rightful earn’t itself an honourable reputation for it’s impeccable reliability, dependability and durability and most certainly has aged with far more GRACE & DIGNITY then any Falcon or Commodore ever has. Infact, the widebody is commonly renouned for having travelled in excess of 200 00 km’s with little more then just schedule maintainance. No EA/EB/ED or heap of crap VR/Vs would never have been able to achieve that as common as the Widebody did and that is a sure thing.
http://AustralianCarAdvice Dingo

regarding Toyota being a FAT PIG – you are right there, they have become the BOSS HOG of the global automotive industry and no doubt lov’n it.

Why would Toyota want to engineer thier vehicle any differantly – get serious Adam and have a look at ‘em -they are selling more cars then they ever have and making an absloute absurb amount of wealth from it so i beg the question… who has the better corporate vision – Toyota or Ford ??

And allow me to let you in on a little secret that you most likely don’t know… just so Ford could enter the booming hybrid market on it’s own home turf of the USA, Ford purchased some dated Toyota patent Hybrid technology just so they can make a dismal attempt at breaking into the ever increasing hybrid fortunes. Couldn’t do it on thier own so instead purchesed it’s way into it from Toyota.

And allow me touch a wee bit on the Corolla/Focus thing – although i have nothing against the Focus because i believe it is a fine little car, it’s reliability infact doesn’t match that of the Corolla (as the leaked Quality Survey indicated)and most certainly hasn’t earn’t itself the same level of GLOBAL RESPECT and the Corolla has. Infact, the Corolla is undoubtedly one of the world’s most STEADFAST common family vehicles to ever grace the roads. It is also the WORLD’S SINGLE BIGGEST SELLING CAR EVER and that can not be achieved on at a global level if it doesn’t exhibit the merits it so rightfully does.

Before Toyota abandoned the WRC, the Corolla was the WRC king not the Focus and had been for many years. Right here in Australia with the Australian Rally Championships (ARC) the TRD Corolla convincingly rules the roost yet again and most certainly not the Focus. There are no exhibited values of the Focus that betters that of the Corolla and that is the stone cold truth of it all wther you accept it or not.

With regards to the Aurion crash test – yes the VE and Aurion both received 4 stars but at differant levels with in that achievement. The Aurion was infact granted a score of 30/37 whereas the VE 27/37 which actually put’s the Aurion is a more favourable scoring… wouldn’t you agree ?? Apart from that, there is no vehicle in the current Holden or Ford range that actually betters that any Toyota – at best they only match not better.
Paul

Look guys Toyota dont have a perception of quality, they have quality… its been built up over years. A perception doesnt last if its just that, a perception. When you see 10+ year old Camrys and Corollas still ticking over like new and see hardly any Commodores or Falcons in comparison… you know they dont last. Mind you given their sales dominance back then you should see alot more. Its one reason why people are switching to Toyota, they are sick of the locals and what they offer… or lack thereof.

QUOTE = yep i betcha the average person that buys a commy or falcon is more particular about it since they are buying it because they care what it is for starters.
honestly i reckon 95% of people that buy toyotas just buy them because they are just a car and as long as it goes they dont care.

Mate you’ve just taken a quote out of the local buyers handbook. Its the local brands that have buyers who dont care, if your so infatuated with a brand or follow it because its local you aernt as particular. On the other hand Toyota is a foreign brand, people dont go in looking for positives like they do with locals but more focus on negatives, give themselves an excuse not to buy them. Your statement is completely wrong. Here is even an example, Omega vs ATX… why would people buy the Omega? Because they AERNT as particular about things.
Andrew. M

dingo, (the happy one)
first gain some model knowledge,
the ef/el didnt compete with the VN, and the ea,eb,ed wasnt with the vr,vs

88-94 was ea,eb,ed and for holden vn,vp
94-98 was ef,el and for holden vr,vs

also if you say ef,el were bad cars you havent had anything to do with them.
i would say the ef,el were possibly the best fords ever made (pre ba of course)
i have never seen bits hanging off them (due to age) and most of them have 300,000+ k’s on them now and still go quite hard and in that time prob the tranny would have just needed a couple of services.
and also they still look a lot more desirable than the equivalent camry just take an ef fairmont for eg and put a nice set of wheels on it and it is easily the best looking car that came from pre 2000.

on the otherhand the VR/VS did fall apart a bit with age from dash switches to seats and consoles to door cards. and not to mention the terrible problems with the security ignition system that they had and i suppose several electronics problems in general. oh yeah and the roof lining too.

but anyway what im getting at is i think you are “taring ford with the same brush” as holden. you keep saying ford is as bad as holden yet fail to compile a similar list of faults for ford. so either remove ford from your hate list or give some better reasoning as to why fords age with no grace as you say.
are you just putting ford in the same boat as holden just because they are the other major player here in OZ?

also can someone please tell me what they mean by better fit and flushness when they bag out ford over toyota? i dont get it. give some examples
Andrew. M

dingo,
dont get caught up in this biggest seller is better either. not that i have anything against the corolla but it is the biggest seller because it is also sold in a lot more places. one main place being asian cities (yep they make up the most of our population),
and they will pretty much only buy their products. now you say OZ people are bad for that but asian countries are by far a lot worse when it comes to where stuff is made.
also on the other playing ground (europe) the focus is the no1 seller.

Paul,
you must only be looking for toyotas when you drive around. i tell you what i see by far a lot more older falcons and commys. have you ever seen an XF – EL falcon? still plenty of them out there i tell you, and with miles too. the legendary 250cross Flow is known to easily rack up 500,000 k’s
http://AustralianCarAdvice Dingo

While i’m at it – it go again but this about you your stupid living in the ’80 comment and prove how WRONG you are.

Before i get into it with recent findings i will (once gain) refer to that god-send leaked Australian Quality Survey. I advice you Adam to re-read it and describe to me how any Ford matched any Toyota… it’s simple, they didn’t. Infact, in some cases Ford and Holden occupied the wooden spoon position of DEAD SET LAST like the Falcon did (Commodore a close second last)in the Large Car sector while the V6 Camry was miles up the list in second place behind the Maxima. Infact, ALL Holden vehicles were rated BELOW AVERAGE in every single segment… that’s right, they couldn’t even scratch AVERAGE in 1 SINGLE thing at all… pathetic.

The most very latest JD Powers reliability findings was only recently published (about 4-5 weeks ago)with Lexus in second postion (behind Porsche as No.1)and Toyota in 7th only bettered by Marque brands except Honda who was the only non-premium brand to be in the top five.

Lincoln however faired very well in 3rd (i think) but that is a low mass produced US only marque not a mass produced brand like Toyota.

Top 5 …

1. Porsche
2. Lexus
3. Lincoln
4. Honda
5. Mercedez Benz

Toyota 7th. – like i said, only better by marques and that can only be expected. No GM brand or mass produced Ford off-shot in the top 10 at all.

Take time and read that TOP RELIABILTY brand listed above… once again Lexus and Toyota make it into the TOP 10 with no mention of Holden (GM) or Ford. Toyota also topped the MOST DEPENDABLE survey also recently published by JD Powers while CNN Money.Com published thier top 47 MOST RELIABLE late last year. Of that top 47 – Toyota and Honda alone fulfilled 32/47 with more of those coming from Toyota then Honda.

The differance between you and me Adan is that i support my comments with FACTS AND FIGURES unlke yourself who has done little more then just cluthched at straws. You want to believe that GM and Ford are matching Toyota but in realilty that have been supported by the most recent findings (not the ’80/’90 bull shit mentioned by yourself) they are NOT !!

And talking about the best – maybe Toyota really is… have a look at how much respect and recognition Lexus has received in recent times with some absolutely fantastic vehciles that have either just been released or will be in coming months. Infact – it was the LS460 that won the 2007 WORLD CAR OF THE YEAR AWARD … not no GM or Ford that’s for sure. That’s right Lexus (Toyota) currently holds the most honourable automotive award of all in thier very own mittens.
Andrew. M

Dingo so are you saying the less produced the better quality? not always.
be even if we run with that i love the way you shrug off lincoln to please yourself yet i suppose you could also discount porsche as i wouldnt say they would produce any more than lincoln. no thats not fair. you have to go by the list in its entirity if you are going to use it at all other wise you are “biased”
http://AustralianCarAdvice Dingo

Andrew – you are right… i shouldn’t tar Ford with the same brush as Holden. The fact is Andrew, i actually don’t mind Ford and yes they have generally proven to be less troublesome and age with more dignity then a typical Holden. Regardless, thier quality, refinment, reliability and dependability didn’t and still doesn’t match that of any reputatble Japanese brand like Honda, Toyota, Subaru or Mazda (i’ll take it a bit easy with the Mazda thingy because i know what you are about to say).

I haven’t had any direct experiance with the EF/EL of which were good cars and certainly looked great in that era but a very close mate of mine (Grant) owned a 6cyl EF (Futura) when i had (and still do as a second car) a poxy 4cyl widebody CSI. The thing is, Grants EF proved over the years to be alot more troublesome then my Camry ever did. They sold it in a couple of years ago because of aging problems and the fact that it was quite thirsty on fuel -tThey purchased a Focus instead.
http://AustralianCarAdvice Dingo

Andrew – i most certianly did not or have not shrugged of Lincoln at all, i even mentioned it’s achievement.

I believe i have used the list to it’s entirity and invite any blogger to persue and read what i have listed above. Bias i may be and accept the ctritism but explain how i am any differant to any Holden or Ford loyalist… i’m not !!

I take it that it is acceptable for a Ford or Holden supporter to be bias but because i support Toyota i’m deemed otherwise. However, it appears (generally) that i have far greater knowledge of Ford or Holden then ‘they’ do of Toyota.
Andrew. M

Dingo,
yeah you would expect a bigger and more powerfull car to be a bit more thirsty but thats nothing against the ef falcon. actually i dont think the thirst is that bad. i have seen and heard of them getting 700k’s out of a tank so thats not bad. just curious (not starting anything) what does your 4cyl camry get?
actually i think the big/roomy and powerfull falcon does quite well. personally i think the fuel economy that 4cyls give is over rated and not as good as percieved. round figures 3L 100k’s better from a 4cyl. no way in the world would i trade that piddly consumption reduction for also reduced space and reduced power. maybe for a second car (shop runner or the missis) but definatly not as a full replacement. ever taken a long trip in a 4cyl?? shocking.
and if you are into long trips the 6cyl would most likely return better fuel figures than a 4cyl
http://AustralianCarAdvice Dingo

Il be absolutely honest with you Andrew and list the consumption on both of my cars wather it is good or not

Car 1…

2003 2.4 4cyl Camry Sportivo manual with a 70 ltr tank – just recently drove from Gladstone to Mackay and then to Longreach for a Holiday and acheived 800km’s per tank at either 100 or 110km’s (max speed limits varied)with Cruise engaged (when possible), A/C on, 2 adults 1 child and a full car of holiday luggage… you know hat it’s like with the missus and kids – i take 1 small bag and she takes the whole house. That was using Premium 95 octane.

Car 2…

1994 (gutless/poxy) 2.2 4cyl 4speed auto also with a 70ltr tank and also achieves 800km’s per tank at similar speeds and load but does not have Cruise control.

It is also my understanding that a 3.0 v6 Camry achieves similar milage as a Falcon or Commodore of about 600-650km’s

When i tow – each cars will consume more juice then a truck.
Adam

Dingo…take your blinders off, the comment about a wide body camry doing over 200,000klm just with basic servicing…woopdy doo!

ok…in out fleet EB falcon done 850,000 klm original engine, on its second transmission and diff.
2 ELs falcons, one has done 250,000 no work at all the other 260,000, no work at all.

So what does that prove???? nothing more than what a Toyota can do.

friends of mine owned a 2000 model echo sedan, they simply went to get the windows tinted, when they did they discovered that the tint would scratch off the galss every single time they would wind one of the windows down, why? because Toyota didn’t bother to put soft felt lining along the doors rubbers that contact the window glass! also when they traded up to a mazda 6, the 2.3l 6 was cheaper to service than the echo 1.5l!
Oh yeah what a feeling ‘Toyota’

I understand why Toyota does well, delusional people who still live in the dar ages…and no one markets better than Toyota…
Adam

i don’t believe that many of you still ‘think’ Toyota quality has gotten better again!
They have good quality, but they have NOT got any better, in fact they had slipped, so yes ‘perception’ is very much in play!

jeez..
when the last generation RAV4 was released, during the wheels testing procedures dscovered the structure of the RAV was not very rigid the door frames were moving in the body frame of the cars themselves…

yes not is all as it appears…
Adam

Dingo…

Lincoln, its so easy to see who knows cars and brands over who just read little reports, reports who are made for people like you…you don’t even know what Lincoln is!
let me inform you…and this is were your quality argument comes a little undone…

Lincoln is a luxury re-badges Ford sold america and they sell around 150,000units a year, on top of the normal Fords…
so same cars, with different trims and styling but the same mechanically! so how come the scaore is so different???

It’s a rebaged Ford in america…

How many cars have u driven???

me…plenty and all makes and models…
Steve V

Boys Boys, settle. Getting back to the point of the article. We can argue into next century as to whether Toyota, Ford, Holden etc. make the most reliable / best value brand motor car. Truth is having owned all three and then some, they all have the good, bad and the ugly. The real story in this article is the arrival of the new ‘tour de force’ HYUNDAI. They have a past reputation of being crap but now just keep proving everyone wrong with their build quality and inclusions for the price. To even be mentioned in the same list as Porsche, Honda, BMW etc. Hyundai is the real story!
http://AustralianCarAdvice Dingo

Adam – it is shame about the window tint but is there more to it like cheap tint that wasn’t applied correctly. I have 2 friends that are ex-window tinters and have commented that is often the reason or seals that have dried out because they have been exposed to the eliments and not garaged. How many bloody Holdens especially Commodores and Falcons do you think i have witnessed with the exact same problem.

Now tell the real reason why your fleet cars have travelled so many KM’s… is it because they are Taxi’s that are always warm. Any car that is always warm will always travel a damn lot more milages then a typical family hack. Once again… THE FACT IS, A TYPICAL HOLDEN OR FORD HAS PROVEN BEYOND ANY DOUBT THAT THEY ‘WILL BE’ MORE TROUBLESOME THEN A TYPICAL TOYOTA AND THAT HAS BEEN THE CASE FOR MANY GENERATIONS.

Where the hell have youu been… !!

No one and especially myself has said that Toyota quality has improved. THAT HAS NOT BEEN MENTIONED ON 1 SINGLE OCCASSION THAT I CAN THINK OF. However… the fact is Adam is that the quality or refinement of Holden or Ford vehicles DO NOT MATCH that of Toyota and if you like to pretend that they do then you really are the illusional one here and most certainly not myself.

Tell me fella… why do you find it SO HARD to accept that the quality of Toyota vehicles still outclasses that of any Holden or Ford…. ONCE AGAIN (AND I’M GETTING SICK OF MENTIONING THIS) – explain why Holden was rated ‘BELOW AVERAGE’ in everysingle segment. They couldn’t even match ‘PAR’ in anything at all while Ford didn’t fair much better themselves.

Toyota however scored either ‘ABOVE AVERAGE’ or ‘DOMINATE’ in every segment and the FACTS are right here for you to read. Accept it or not i really couldn’t careless but it does not change the fact that TOYOTA ENGINEERING IS OF A HIGHER STANDARD THEN HOLDEN AND FORD AND THAT IS A FACT !!

You know what i reckon… i reckon you haven’t even sighted that leaked Australian Quality Survey … have you!! because no one could possibly be so stupid to pass comment otherwise.

Illusional people are those who simply CAN NOT and WILL NOT accept FACTS AND FIGURES that are colloberated by reputable organisations even by such firms like RAC/NRMA.

And here are some recent examples from ‘MOTOR’ – they published the fact that out of 12 differant variants of the VE that was road tested they were hassled by 12 differant faults including those never ending electrical gremlins were the fan wouldn’t engage no matter how much they played around with the dials but then all of a sudden just burst to life and a bootlid on a Stato that decided to lift by itself while driving along.

Also… remember the Stato that lost a suspension bush as some sort when been road testing for ‘Wheels Car Of The Year’ or the problems they have experianced with FPV Falcons and required towing back to dealerships. And what about ‘MOTORS’ January 2007 edition of the Performnace Car Shootout of 20 cars and the HSV dropped out at a very dismal 18th because it suffered from that common and renouned premature brake fade issue 9amoung other issues). On this occassion it experianced brkae fade after i pathetic, dismal lap… just 1 little tiny lap and no brakes !!

Keep it going Adam because i am really starting to enjoy this especially when Holden and Ford people like to PRETEND AND BELIEVE in wacky ways that they can compare engineering to that of reputatable Japanese companies.

And please explain how Holden and Ford’s reputation not only in Australia but globally become common knowledge and renouned for thier less then desirable quality, reliability and dependability. I suppose you have also been enlighted by Fords latest recall of 3.5 million vehicles associated with the Cruise Control or even the very simple fact that the VE has suffered 3 recalls in less then a full year of being on sale.
http://AustralianCarAdvice Dingo

ADAM – I have driven many, many differant cars and the reason for that if i haven’t already mentioned it is because i was employed by Holden in Spare Parts for nearly 4 years and enjoyed my exposure to the auto-industry. Being employed by any particular brand also gives you exposure to other companies because of the associated liasoning and or course all dealerships sell used cars. Am i wrong…!!

you may have auto experiance fella but bear in mind you are also chatting with somehere who also been exposed so your battle will not come much the same as Holdens and Ford’s battle against Toyota. The thing is, i firmly believe that much better vehicles can be purchased elsewhere then from Holden or Ford and for extremely justified reasons.

Here is something else for you to have a ponder of… explain why Toyoya off-road vehicles and workhorses are the most highly regarded and respected of all… it is because of thier ruggedness and tenacy to be a damn lot less troublesome in harsh, rugged, unforgiving, remote conditions. No Holden or Ford has ever even come close to achieving the same reputation Toyota has.

Travel to the lands of REAL AUSTRALIA were the Farmers, Agriculturlist, Miners, Industry Workers and Tradies work tirelessly in unforgiving conditions and what brand dominates the landscape… i’ll give a wee clue – NOT HOLDEN OR FORD THAT’S FOR BLOODY SURE
yet Holden is so pathetic that they advertise they sell vehicles for Australian conditions yet thier reputation is in tatters much the same as Ford.
Adam

Pick and choose what you will answer…

I said we have FORDS that last well past 200,000 and you make up an answer to my own experience…they are not taxis…your an idiot plain and simple.

You never did answer why Lincoln, which is the same car mechanically as you average run of the mill Ford can match the all mighty Lexus and toyota?? How do they Dingbatt!?

you work in spare parts for 4 years, woopdy doo!

I worked for a vehicle broker company for 4 years, ford and Holden, and now an auction company, with pre-delivery vehicles for the past 2 years…
I have driven EVERY make and model, new and old and i have delt with every used car and new car dealership!

people who have not driven current model cars or don’t drive many makes and models reguarly wouldn’t know what they are talking about, you only know Holden back in the VT era, nothing more or less…

so get over yrself…
http://AustralianCarAdvice Dingo

Adam – i am not familiar with Lincoln motor vehicles because they have never interested me in the slightest – probably because hey are not sold here in Oz therefore i am unable to reply with an educated explanation on this particular matter.

However, you have also not responded with an explanation why Holden or Ford have not been able to offer the Australian community any real reputable rugged off-road vehicles especially considering Holden has a habit of promoting that they manufactuer vehicles for Australian conditions… am i wrong ??

Only knowing Holden in the VT era is exactly were you are WRONG. Ever sense i have left the automotive industry i have always maintained a very strong interest in the automotive arena and the familiarisation of the industry has enabled me maintain a satisfactory understanding of the changing environment. What has helped very much so indeed though is that i am currently employed by Rio Tinto in the mining industry (just west of Biloela)which of coarse employs predominately Toyota vehicles with examples from most other manufactuers.

One thing for sure and that is the humble Hilux and Cruiser remains the most rugged of all with ‘SOME’ mechanics at work starting to question the extended term durability of the new Ford Rangers that were purchased as the interior trims are beginning to lossen already.

I’ve taken a interest in this deveolpment and have noted the solid nature of the Hilux interior to be far more robust then that of the Ranger, Rodeo, Triton but to a lesser degree against the Navara. Now that is from my experiance with Rio Tinto and the environment i work in which to me is the ‘REAL WORLD’ not dressed in a funny suit selling/buying/auction cars and then thinking you know them in the so call ‘REAL WORLD’ that so many clowns like to use.
Adam

Dingo…

Your right you no nothing of Lincoln, so do not use the American quality statistics in an argument if you know nothing about Lincoln…I do…
The reality is the gap between asian and american autos makers is not as big as you like to make it…in some cases euro makers are worse than the ammerican makers…

As for ruggered offraod vehicles…ok…

I agree %100 that the landcruiser/hilux are some of the most durable work trucks around…thats what they are work trucks imported from japan and made by toyota japan, not Toyota AUS.

What is the top selling vehicle here? the commodore…
for the last hmmm 40 odd years big large 6cyl RWD cars have been the top sellers…
Do you think that the large car class is worth having a competitior in?? i think it is! as Toyota and the rest have been trying to tap into Ford and Holdens large car share for the past 20 years!
Why? because profits exist there…and Ford and Holden make unique vehicles for this class, does anybody else? NO…

So if i were Ford or Holden, i’d let Toyota and the rest has the light/heavy truck segement, profits aren’t as big, lets face it, fleets are biggest buyer, not the private buyers for these types of vehicles.

I will die the day i see any other ‘local’ assembler apart from ford or Holden actually design, engineer and build an exclusive model for AUS, as Ford and Holden have done…i don’t care if its Ford or Holden or not…but they are the only ones to do so…! FACT.

Oh, by the way Ford AUS is actually in the middle of engineering a new ranger/truck platform for the entire Ford world, along with a RWD platform, Holden too with Zeta!

Now i say, if Toyota or any other ‘local’ assembler doing these sorts of programs for their parent companies!?

So open your eyes and look at reality for a change…

As for where you work…Rio Tinto…

Do you drive EVERY make and model, new and used?? EVERYDAY?? for the past 6 YEARS??

Any other assumptions you would like to pass off as fact?
Andrew. M

ah here it is, i lost this post for a bit

whats that i hear???????
hey adam you know of ef falcons that go for ever too?
well right on brother i second that!!

i told dingo of an ef in another post that has like 350k’s on it and like you say it also has had nothing wrong with it.
uuummmmmm im trying to think of something to be fair….. ah a couple of batteries yeah ill start with that one.
ah a good transmission service….
ah i think the backlight in the radio display is gone…. i think
ah shock absorbers….

well i think that is bloody excellent for a 12 yr old car with 350,000k’s on it, and even if the camry didnt do a couple of batteries or shocks in that time or even need a transmission service it still wouldnt be enough to get me away from a falcon

summing up ford does make quality and reliable and fuel efficient cars TOO!!!!!
http://AustralianCarAdvice Dingo

Adam – yes that gap between American and Japanese manufactuers is less then what it was because in recent years the American duo have simply had no option but to wakeup to themselves and dramatically improve thier vehicles because the Japanese brands are now applying force that is inadvertantly is having a pronouned negative affect on the American automotive manufactuers that has not witnessed on this scale before.

The more reputable Japanese manufactuers like Toyota, Honda, Mazda Subaru etc have and still engineer quality, refined, reliable, dependable and durable vehicles because it the very DNA of thier corporate behaviour whereas the American duo haven’t given a damn how crap the vehicles they have provided to the market until their sales hence fortunes began to decline heavily and only then did they WAKE UP AND TAKE NOTE with thanks to such brands like Honda and Toyota.

The aame can be said with many Euopean marques who have also relaxed in recent years but Toyta throuh Lexus has also made such recognised brands to SIT UP AND TAKE NOTE. Toyota is argueably the empire that has had more effect on the global automotive industry in recent generations then any other brand stretching from everyday hack transports to CRAFTED MARQUES.

Sadly and even to thier own recogintion, they abandoned the performance market to persue the lucaritive market and to a certain extent has proven to be more finacial beneficial then other approach any other manufactuer has been able to achieve.
However, they now relise that to regain greater recognition they need to re-establish those grounds and that is exactly what they have set out to achieve ranging from less challenging projects like those from TRD to highly competitive ones like the IS-F, LF-A etc not to mention other projects suchs FT-HS AND Supra.

Where-as companies like GM and Ford are putting a foot forward to repair there tattered reputaton associated with the poor quality and reliability issues of thier vehicles Toyota is putting a foot forward to challenge the more exciting performance market and as far as i’m concerned, the luxuries that the American companies once enjoyed is long gone and i’ll bet you they will find the global market far more brutal then it ever was.

As GM AND Ford are taking the challenge to Toyota, Toyota is taking the chaLlenge right to thier very own door step with recent examples like the introduction of the Tundra truck and Nascar racing to name only two combined with their already extremely competitive range, growing populraity of hybrid vehicles and of coarse the renouned respect that Lexus now enjoys. The very and probably the single biggest differance between the brands though is that Toyota has a massive finacial warchest to fight with weheras Ford and GM are still incurringg mass losses of which is not favourable in thier persuit to stabilise.
Andrew. M

dingo if ford and GM are taking anything from toyota it isnt little things like quality, price, range etc like we argue about.
if they are taking something it would be the global strategy that toyota has and ford and GM are now employing to become a more efficient “global” company as a whole.
you see that is where ford, gm and toyota were really different.
ford and GM have lots of divisions around the world that pretty much fend for themselves and provide a product directly for the market they manufacture the product in. but times they are changing. no longer will the falcon and commodore be kept in australias own little basket.
likewise with the focus and ranger ute which will come here. ford must have seen that ford AUS can design and make a ute that is what people want (for eg falcon ute) so they will give it to those who can do better with it (AUS).

toyotas biggest winner is staying the same and being conservative.
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Phill

More Toyota propaganda that they probably paid for.What the hell is brand value anyway