Ford Kills the I6 Engine – Official Details
July 18, 2007 by Alborz Fallah
Ford Australia have just confirmed the company will import a global new Duratec V6 engine from 2010. The move will see a range of basic and high performance engines as the powerplant of Australia’s iconic Falcon, Falcon Ute and Territory model lines.
“The Australian car market has fundamentally and permanently changed,” said Ford Australia President Mr Tom Gorman.
Ford says the move is primarily an attempt to not only meet emissions ratings but also give the company the flexibility to potentially incorporate future alternative fuel strategies, such as diesel technology.
Ford also blames the diminishing demand for large cars and the corresponding increase in popularity of smaller, imported vehicles (VFACTS figures show a drop in market share of 16.7 per cent in the lat 9 years.
“Although we remain committed to our current local vehicle lines – Falcon, Falcon Ute and Territory, it is imperative that we improve our ability to respond to the increasing consumer desire for alternative fuels, improved performance, and better fuel economy while spreading the investment required across a broader base of vehicles. Importing the new engine from 2010 will allow us to achieve these goals.” Mr Gorman added.
The decision to ditch the I6 engine will mean Ford will discontinue its Australian I6 engine operations in Geelong come 2010. Ford says redeployment opportunities will be maximised wherever possible and the company will work closely with its employees and unions to minimise the impact on the 600 people affected by the decision.
Despite the news, construction continues at the company’s new Research & Development Centre, ($1.8 billion investment program), and is due for completion later this year. Everything will also remain unchanged at the Ford’s test facilities at Lara along with usual operations at the company’s stamping plant and Ford Discovery Centre.
Ford has announced the company’s remaining 1400 employees in Geelong and 3000 in Campbellfield will not be directly impacted by the decision.
“We look forward to working with our employees to ensure we can deliver on the next step in our process to continue building our business here in Australia.” Mr Gorman said.
The new engine will come from high volume US engine facilities that are expecting engine production to hit nearly one million per year by 2011. Ford Australia currently only produces 70,000 engines each year.
Ford have also confirmed a slight change of plans for its Campbellfield manufacturing plant with moves to help increase productivity and capacity utilisation.
“We are currently investigating a number of alternatives that will allow us to return our Campbellfield manufacturing facility to 100 per cent capacity,” said Mr Gorman.
2010 will see the end of one of Australia’s most loved engines, the inline six engine will undoubtedly receive a worthy farewell in due time.
Print it: 
Andrew.M…. aaaaaaaaargh
QUOTE = the I6 has a huge difference in torque compared to the V6. go have a look. did you know that the ford I6 is known as having the most torque out of a 6cyl in the world and the most torque out of 6 or 8 in australia?
For starers I do have an idea, nothing I have said is wrong really… Im aware they are more balanced and have more torque etc but V6s are now prity decent, they are cheaper to build, more compact and have lower emissions. You wanna argue these facts do so at your own risk. As for the torque issue, I said there is a difference, although I really cant say its huge as you claim, the Commodore which is 3.6L has 330Nm while the Falcon has I think 380Nm… so 50Nm HOWEVER we all know torque has a positive relationship with dissplacement. So Inlines having ‘HUGE’ differences in torque to V6s is somewhat SUBJECTIVE…. but Im not denying they tend to have more.
And as for your facts, here is one, did you know the Aurions V6 has the largest volume of air intake than any other 6 cylinder in the world? You could say its related to an efficient intake system pre-intake manifold but I think it also has something to do with it being V6. Such breathing helps produce power… thats why the Aurion despite having a significantly lower dissplacement can comfortably produce 10kw more then the current Falcon (translates into a bigger difference at the wheels as RWD’s lose more through the drivetrain). And I know you will go on about torque this and torque that, but power is still relevant.
QUOTE = now i know you didnt start this one but i think it is subjective to say the V6 is more refined than the I6 due to them getting the same fuel consumption while carrying more weight and sporting .5L more capacity
as for sound give me an I6 anyday. i reckon V6’s sound tinny. the I6 has an unmistakable sound especially when you give it some right from the heart
Well I didnt mean to say more refined then other and get into that… the point I was making is that any difference that may exist is neglible. As for sound, each unto their own… but I dont see say the Buggatti Veyron or any other supercar for that matter strapping two I6’s together? Lol and I know its a size issue, but Im sure if there was a will there would have been a way.
QUOTE = You claim Wheels mag is not a great source of motoring info? what is in your opinion, the same info on the net and other mags as you state you obtain your info from? Everybody has friends and relatives that has cars you can drive.
You own a toyota, explains a lot to me.
I use various sources to get a better picture, when you have many other sources contradicting wheels like the Aurion fuel consumption argument against the Commodore etc you tend to think that source isnt very credible. As for relatives, yes Im not the one disputing your knowledge, so congrats you drive other cars… I was just stating that Im hardly someone who hasnt driven many cars. As for Toyota, well when your a uni graduate and have a debt to pay and earning jack all Im sure you would be able to afford a R32 or whatever. At this stage in my life I need reliability which Toyota offers… but the Toyota V6 in its defence is hardly an under performer, in years gone by (as we see now with the Aurion) it was in fact a far superior engine to its comeptiton, for example the Gen3 had 800Ml less dissplacement then a Commodore yet only 10kw less (obviously less torque).
QUOTE = I work in the motor trade, i have worked for Ford and Holden. I have worked for a vehicle broker company.
You?
Oh k so no-one else is entitled to their opinion… espcially when its about trivial things like the characterists of an I6, the Aurion, whats subjective etc. Mate your turning into abit of a joke with this credibility thing. Im sure people with far more experience then you have said things which are wrong, so your experience is hardly something that makes you the be all and end all for car knowledge. If anything it shows you may have bias (given you worked for Ford and Holden) which isnt something that is contructive.
QUOTE = I have no doubt the R32 is a great sounding and performing engine…it is $55,000. Not an engine or price point you can compare to family sedan V6 engines costing $30,000.
That wasnt my friggin point, I was comparing it to them… I was defending V6s in general. When someone says they sound like shyte and then you have the best sounding car under $100k which is V6 (not mentioning all the great cars over that much which like 90% are in the V-Formation) then Im going to mention that aernt I!?
QUOTE = The falcon consumes no more fuel in the real world, and if it happens too, the difference wouldn’t be worth arguing about, just like Aurions Torque disadvantage compared to falcons inline 6, agreed?
Not 100%… the torque difference does mean the Falcon has better pulling power, but to the extent that it doesnt negatively effect your driving (ie struggles so much under load its ridiculous) I agree.
QUOTE = proved me wrong in regards to the design of Aurion?? what!? you even admitted you made a mistake on one of your comments, due to being a bit tired, remember?
The Aurions front and rear ends were restyled by an aussie in japan, the whole car was NOT designed by an aussie…got that yet?
I mentioned how I used the word ‘built’ instead of ‘developed’ as being wrong, NOT that you werent wrong in your initial post. Sure you didnt say ‘by an Aussie’ rathter ‘in Australia’, but your point in that post was to show how un-Australian the Aurion is when in fact an Aussie was involved in the design process. As for front and back redesigned, yes I already knew that obviously… the centre section is from the Camry afterall….
QUOTE = As for profit figures…as i said last time, if your so up to date with auto information you would know this, remember your knowledge is pretty good according to you, who obtains his info from the net and other sources, thats were i got that info from too.
I’ll see if i can track it down for you…
Lol I never really say I have a great deal of knowledge. But Im hardly uninformed, that is my point. And I hope you do track it down as I still find it hard to believe, as said, 3 or so cars in the top 5 of sales in Australia while no Fords are… sure there are explanations why those sales dont translate into profits, but I would imagine the difference is so great that they should still have a better profit than Ford or at least not 1/3!
QUOTE = You seem to be a blind Toyota buyer who will believe any infomation thats generated about Toyota thats not negative. marketing works a treat!
Just for kicks, what model toyota do you own? what other cars did u test drive before purchase? be honest.
Lol give me an example of my blindness as a result of marketing? If your referring to the sludge issue then your wrong, I already said Toyota was hesistant at the start to fix the issue… but in the end did the right thing. Cant think of any more examples… And again with the credibility. I already said I have test driven many vehicles (the same kinda thing that gives motor mag authors etc the knowledge to comment on them) and driven many other family and friend vehicles. So what I went up against isnt that relevant. But for your info anyway I already said I have the 1MZ-FE, so if your that knowledgable you should know that means its from like 1996 or so onwards. I own a Gen4 (1999) Vienta (ie upper spec Camry), bought used, hardly anything special. Cars I tried were obviouly similar, test drove all the cars around the same age : Sonata, you could say Falcon (family owned one), Magna (Test drove dealer one and family owned one) and didnt test drive but have driven it since but also the Commodore of that same period (which Im glad I didnt buy as its a POS). Also before I decide on a family car for certain reasons I also test drove smaller cars; Lancer (Have driven one a coupla time since), Suzuki Baleno (Family bought one since), Elantra… again all of the same era. Now this has to do with our previous arguments what? Because I own a Camry I cant comment on other cars despite having driven many and reading a hell of alot more on them…. I really dont see where this is going.
Paul…
1.The reality is Aurion consumes as much fuel as a falcon, remember Aurion is FWD and it;s lighter. It’s not like toyota makes a RWD class car to go head to head with falcon and commodore directly, so falcon and commodore are actually quite efficient when all things are considered.
2. I worked for ford and holden, not due to bias…most people who work in the car trade actually are less biased than consumers and couldn’t give a toss about motor vehicles in general, sales training teaches you to build one brand up over another, theres a difference. the broker company i worked for sold all different makes and models, you couldn’t be biased otherwise you could lose a sale! i now work for a company that deals with all brands.
3. You can have your opinion, i fail to see where your opinion is left as that though, you sprout off as if it’s fact. I drive all late model and new vehicles, not old models.
3. you claimed you proved me WRONG with the Aurion being australian designed and developed. hence my reply back.
4. profit figures are correct, i don’t care if you believe me or not, how about you try and prove me wrong, as your only proof is that Toyota is market leader so it should be more profitable!? selling more volume does not always equal more profit!! GM was the top seeling atomotive brand for 74 years, and yet it was not always the most profitable…
4. I understand why you bought a Toyota…would you believe that in america Fords latest models are actually matching and beating some Toyota models for consumer satisfaction and quality!
Sorry perception is the biggest hurdle, most other brands have caught up with toyotas reliability.
i have never actually owned a toyota, yet i have never had any issues with cars ive personally owned, does that prove anything? no, not all all.
At the end of the day, they are all the same, with positives and nagatives…
Personal chocie plays a big part.
One thing i cant understand though, i have never bough a Toyota for one main reason…style and handling dynamics….
why the hell would you buy a corolla, which even with the brand new model just released, can’t outhandle or outperform the mazda 3, it even drinks more fuel!
And reliability is the same, oh and by the way toyota has top selling models, but very rarely do they have class leading vehicles…thats a fact also.
No bias involved!
QUOTE = 4. profit figures are correct, i don’t care if you believe me or not, how about you try and prove me wrong, as your only proof is that Toyota is market leader so it should be more profitable!? selling more volume does not always equal more profit!! GM was the top seeling atomotive brand for 74 years, and yet it was not always the most profitable…
Im aware more sales doesnt always mean more profit, I did already say that.
Now to prove you wrong Adam, your going off old profit results, how about CURRENT results where Toyotas profits more reflect their real results (tax adjustments have occured etc).
Toyotas profits:
“Toyota Net profit for the period rose to $184.3 million, from $54.5 million the previous year.”
http://www.industrysearch.com......rket-27127
Ford profits:
“Ford swung to a NET LOSS of A$40.3 million for its 2006 fiscal year, from a net profit of A$148.2 million in 2005.”
http://www.autonews.com/apps/p.....feed=rss02
FURTHERMORE as I said Toyota gets more sales, here is a quote from the above article about market shares:
“Total Australian car sales topped a record 1 million units in the year to June, according to industry figures, with FORDS MARKET SHARE of 10.4 percent lagging TOYOTA’S 22.2 percent and General Motors unit Holden’s 14.5 percent.”
In your defence Im sure Fords profits have gone down due to development costs, its a cycle you see among car manufacturers… but I have proven you WRONG. So much for industry experience…
———————
People buy it for reliability… it may be a perception or it could be the truth (surveys of satisfaction cant always be relied upon as stats can be manipulated). Im sure people also consider that the Corolla has been around for ages now and been reliable for most of that while the Mazda3 in terms of reliability is a new comer. Same applies to the Camry.
As for class leading, well I think it can be subjective, I honestly think the Aurion currently is the class leader. The current falcon isnt as it lacks safety features (to be corrected with the new model), the Commodore lacks a decent range with a base model having a 4 speed tranny and also a lack of standard safety features and the 380 again lacks safety features and has he least powerful engine in the class. And even with the Camry and Corolla they might not be class leaders but they are at the top of their markets.
^
Im still looking for results that are more comparative, but given the increase in Toyotas profits its not going to be 1/3 like in previous years where Ford was making a $150mil profit and Toyota only $50mil
The point was that toyota AUS has been less profitable than both Ford and Holden for at least the past 6 years.
Thats with Ford exporting fewer than 8000 falcons a year! while toyota would be completely unprofitable if it wasn’t for 60,000 units they export every year.
Everything is subjective to you! So when auto information supports your opinion, your happy to use it, otherwise if it goes against your well founded opinion, it’s ’sunjective’ come off it!
paul…
add up the profit for the last 6 or even 10 years and you will see ford and Holden wip toyotas butt!
ford and Holden have remained more profitable, while making and developing models here with less exports consistentley with less market share!
do you understand yet?
Well I will go off CURRENT trends not digging up old info… fact is Toyota in recent history has been doing well. At the end of the day they have a larger market share then both Ford and Holden and are now making large profits as they reap the success of the Camry, Aurion and Corolla to name a few. Ford and Holden on the other hand are struggling and thats even with government hands outs which I read somewhere totalled like 600 million!!! As a taxpayer as well I am concerned at this given that a recent handout to Ford was to develop the I6 so it would meet newer emissions standards yet they now scrap the I6. Can we have our money back then to?
QUOTE = Everything is subjective to you! So when auto information supports your opinion, your happy to use it, otherwise if it goes against your well founded opinion, it’s ’sunjective’ come off it!
Well yes…. most things I say are subjective. Everyone has some form of bias but Im just highlighting extreme cases… please tell me with a straight face that post by I think it was ‘Sam’ about the torque, sound and refinement is 100% accurate!?!?
LOL
Paul…
current trends? it was only in the last finacial year Ford AUS lost 40 million, Holden the last 2.
It has only been in the last 2 years toyota AUS has been able to pull any profit.
Also take into account the level of loss vers profit, there is a huge difference for Toyota.
do i have to mention to you 2 major things…
1. Ford and Holden invest much more than toyota in local product development. Ford not only does RWD, it s doing a new truck platform to service the world, along with the engineering work on the Indian market fiesta, same goes for Holden. Was it Ford who actually developed the territory, not just another ‘import’ from the Ford world.
toyota AUS holds no major responsibility for its parent company.
I guess you call the avalon a success too!?
2. ALL local assemblers receive goverment handouts and concessions, yes Toyota too and they actually spend their own money before the concessions are handed out.
One last thing, where is Toyotas affordable RWD platform??
I agree Sam might be a little optimistic…please point out where my extreme bias exists?
I could also put FrugalOne in the same boat.
Lol I know Toyota get handouts for things like building here but Ford and Holden get ALOT more… for development etc which are significant.
As for affordable RWD… Lexus, at around $60k or so thats affordable. For everyone else, FWD (Also doesn the Hilux or whatever come in RWD?). And I dont know how this is an issues, again much like I6 vs V6 have various adv and disadv same applies to FWD and RWD.
How much more Paul?
NO, not Lexus and i knew you would try that one! $30,000 range like a falcon or commdore, Hilux!? yr kidding right? unless we were comparing a ford courier! or holden rodeo. Come on admit there is no RWD Toyota for $30,000.
You call $60,000 affordable for the average punter? oh, thats right i see lexus sells as many as Ford, Holden and Toyota per month!
No, it’s not like the V6 debate, RWD is different to FWD…rear wheel drive and front wheel drive.
I’m talking a class of car, V6s can come in all shapes and sizes. In reality the RWD class is different to FWD.
Would that be why Lexus is RWD and not just using the camry/aurion FWD platform that Lexus once used in some of there model ranges…it appears to compete with BMW, MERC they had to configure RWD!
If you want to get technical…
Aurion is not all that efficient compared to a falcon or commodore, due to its FWD which is lighter than RWD.
take the new camry 4cyl…it drinks as much as the bigger cars…why on earth would you buy one over the aurion!? The packaging is not good at all.
paul what i am doing with the I6 comments is trying to defend it from the ill informed people like yourself.
THE I6 IS NOT OUT DATED
the real reason the I6 is going is because ford want to create a global engine they can mass produce and the I6 is not as easily suited to the type of vehicles they would need to use it in due to its height.
emissions prob wouldnt be an issue if they put an alloy block on it just like the V6.
i fail to see many advantages of the V6 apart from the global stragegy ford are implementing
can you name any?
FACT: the ford I6 is as efficient as the toyota V6 even after you add kgs and more capacity.
FACT: the I6 generates quite a bit more torque and i bet if it were the V6 with more torque you would sprook up even 20nm. you have obviously never towed or carried weight before.
also where you say V6’s are more compact i would have to say the opposite based on my observations. the V6 maybe shorter but the V6 has more spread. and seeing that you dont put components ontop of the motor i dont see what the advantage of being shorter would be.
also to comment on the profit and handouts stuff….
I agree with adam in that you can not judge profit V loss over a single year. these things have to be judged over a period as adam suggests eg 6 years. the reason you cant is cause this years toyota report wont reflect any development costs as that was covered over the previous reports, and you definatly cant compare this years ford report to it cause guess what…. they are reflecting the part of the cycle that does show development costs at the moment. you obviously arent doing a business degree at uni right now.
and last one on the handouts…. yes toyota do get them too im not going looking for exact figures now but it would make sence that toyota get less for development etc since they well dont do a lot of that here compared to holden and even more ford.
Adam…
1. Ive had the FWD vs RWD argument to many times to get into it again. When your looking for a family car for most people its totally irrelevant, unless you are towing something huge FWD or RWD it doesnt matter.
2. Lexus etc go with RWD not because its superior but because they are more enjoyable to drive… when you have people forking over alot of money you give them what they want, which is RWD because of soceities perceptions
3. I agree the Camry is prity crap, I dont know why people buy them… for example Camry Sportivo is the same price as Aurion ATX! But overall FWD is a more efficient systems, its fact they lose less through the drivetrain and weigh less… which means better fuel consumption not to mention faster acceleration with a given engine and also a higher traction threshold as the weight of the engine is over the drive wheels.
Andrew.M…
1. I dont know what the hell your whinging about. All I have MAINLY been saying is that the V6 doesnt lose much if anything over the I6. For Ford the strategy is to reduce costs which Ive already mentioned; through a cheaper engine to build in the V6, through consolidating the design and development of the engine and finally through economies of scale (instead of building 70,000 inlines in Aus build that many V6s in a production line already building 1,000,000 and each unit gets built for less).
2. Your facts are nice but wrong. Ive proven to you that in terms of torque the difference isnt massive, Ive proven this, no need to talk anymore about it. In terms of size, it is fact they are a more compact unit… this is just stupid honestly to be trying to argue it, its why they dont use it in FWDs or they dont use it in supercars when strapping two of them together… because of size restrains of a inline 6. Its just common sense, one row of 6 cylinders as opposed to 2 rows of 3 cylinders. Lol have you ever seen a V6 before?
3. Toyota recorded a bigger profit then Ford has for a while. Now you mention development and associated costs… what has come out this year? Camry, Aurion, Corolla. If anything its only going to be a bigger nextt year while Ford are obviously aware of the exact opposite conditions because their cutting workers. On top of all this previous profits have been helped significanlty by govt grants, dont quote me but I remember reading that the year they made $150mil profit while Toyota only made $50mil… they had got a grant of like $70mil. So lets go to our respective manufacteres and as for their books, eliminate grants, consider tax issues such as how Toyota had a significant sum of money disputed in the year they only made $50mil profit etc… and then see who has been going better. On top of this the fact that Toyota now has the biggest market share, to be precise it is OVER DOUBLE the market share Ford has, and you try to tell me with a straight face they will have more profits next year! Fair enough the Orion comes out, but double the market share is a huge gap.
1. Paul i am not whinging, i am (as i stated) defending the I6 from the critisism you gave it in suggesting the I6 was over the hill. i am simply saying (not whinging) that the I6 is still easily competitive and in some parts it has an advantage over the V6.
2.ok i still havent seen you prove the torque thing yet. do you know what torque is? im starting to think not. i ask my question again have you ever towed or carried weight? also im thinking not thats why i say you dont know what torque is.
what i was saying about size (as i said) was based on my observations and sorry i forget the feeler guage everytime i look at something. ok now i will get a tape measure next time i pop the bonnet of a “V” motor and i mean really. i will post the measures i find on here. hey better still for my interest can you pop the hood of your camry and measure the width of your camry donk and let us know and i will do the same with my inline. what i stated earlier was i reckon the V6 looks wider than the I6 and once we both measure im sure it will solve it. either way it doesnt matter but i would be surprised if the I6 comes out wider.
oh yeah how come they dont use the “V” configuration on those rice burners that sport eastwest motors? those are the ones with real space restraints.
3. gee paul whooo up when did i predict future profits?? thats right toyota have released new models already meaning their development costs were not this year but in the previous ones. so little expenditure now cause that was paid for like 2 yrs ago as for ford not releasing something yet that proves my point further. the money is spent before they make it meaning mostly now and last year for ford and 12mths+ before now for toyota. get it?
also read articles on the ford cutting “POSITIONS”. they will actually create more from this restructure they are doing. and noone has been cut.
ok also what was toyotas grant in comparison?
also stop talking about now. you cant talk about one year in terms of business. like adam says it is considered over a trend of like 6-8 years (usually 2 cycles in car business)
also a quick ponder on what you said, does any profit from the corolla go to toyota OZ? (apart from what the dealerships make on mark up etc of course)
[quote]Adam…
1. Ive had the FWD vs RWD argument to many times to get into it again. When your looking for a family car for most people its totally irrelevant, unless you are towing something huge FWD or RWD it doesnt matter.
2. Lexus etc go with RWD not because its superior but because they are more enjoyable to drive… when you have people forking over alot of money you give them what they want, which is RWD because of soceities perceptions
3. I agree the Camry is prity crap, I dont know why people buy them… for example Camry Sportivo is the same price as Aurion ATX! But overall FWD is a more efficient systems, its fact they lose less through the drivetrain and weigh less… which means better fuel consumption not to mention faster acceleration with a given engine and also a higher traction threshold as the weight of the engine is over the drive wheels.[quote]
Paul…
1. My point is that from an engineering perpective RWD is a different set up to FWD, ok? So everyone talks about efficiency, yet the lighter FWD aurion can’t beat a heavier RWD falcon or commodore for fuel efficiency. Funny thing is falcon and commodore were always refered to as gas guzzlers, i take it now aurion can be called a gas guzzler too? it certainly isn’t an efficient FWD vehicle, but a side step alternative to bigger RWD vehicles perhaps?
2. take a read of your number 2 point, you contradicted yourself. RWD is used in the luxury car segment as RWDcan be tuned better for handling dynamics, hence like you said driving enjoyment. Not just ’societies perceptions’! lexus also had to swicth to RWD as BMW and MERC are RWD.
You never did answer my value question in relation to a Lexus costing $60,000 and that being easy to afford for most average punters…oh thats right Toyota doesn’t make an affordabel RWD vehicle! when they do i wonder if they could package one as well as a falcon or commodore? i guess we will never know…
3. toyota simply stuffed the latest camry up, i agree a 4 cyl FWD should be more economical, but the new camry isn’t…i’d be buying the aurion over the camry any day, just goes to show you the thick heads who go out and buy a camry without a 2nd thought, thinking there getting an efficient 4cyl car! We give the general public way too much credit…
i forgot to ask you again…how much more grant money does Ford and Holden receive over Toyota??
Andrew.M….
I didnt say it was over the hill, summed up I have said (or meant to have portrayed) that the adv of V6 (cheaper costs, comparable performanace) outweigh any disadv (less torque, not as balanced). As for torque, nah I dont know what it is, thats a button on your radio right? Fark me mate, I did give you evidence, Commodore v Falcon, a difference of what like 50Nm out of an engine which has nearly half a litres more displacement! Lets do torque to displacement ratio for some insight:
I6 Falcon : 95Nm per L
V6 Commodore : 92Nm per L (94Nm per L for SV6)
So you care to tell me again there is a massive difference? We all know torque is related to disiplacement, if the Falcon has so much of a advantage being inline we should see a better torque to displacement ratio. We dont. Finally admit defeat? I doubt it. And Im not measuring my engine, as it would be difficult anyway to get an accurate reading. You cant just measure the maximum dimensions, as where the heads of the engine are its wider for a V6 (still shorter though), once you get down to the block its SUBSTANTIALLY SMALLER on top of that. So overall its smaller. Go research it, this is just common sense. Lastly in terms of profit true maybe some of it development costs of new models were spent previously, I did mention originally its all difficult to compare as the manufacturers run by a cycle of development and then reaping the benefits. But Toyotas profits currently are higher then what Ford Aus have got in a while I believe, so they are on top. Their market share is also higher then its ever been, so I would expect them to have higher profits if you were to compare both companies during the period where they are selling a new model.
Adam…
1. It is more efficienct, I said previously the difference can be neglible in the real world but if you were to impossibly test a Falcon and a Aurion in the exact same conditions… meaning same pedal depressions etc and same roads… the Aurion would return better results. And why do we even argue this it is FACT they are more efficient. Here is a quote from of all sources wikipedia lol (its from another more credible site though) about FWD adv:
“Improved drivetrain efficiency: the direct connection between engine and transaxle reduce the mass and mechanical inertia of the drivetrain compared to a rear-wheel drive vehicle with a similar engine and transmission, allowing greater fuel economy. ”
2. I didnt contradict myself… enjoyment and handling are two different things. A AWD is arguably less enjoyable in terms of reckless behaviour yet smashes a RWD or FWD around a track. And I didnt talk about your affordable RWD as I alreaday said, who cares, FWD is better for driving on the streets.
3. Well I guess people buy the Camry because the lower models are cheaper then the Aurion… and they dont care about all those other issues, they know they are reliable based on history. In saying this, its mainly uninformed older people buying them or fleets. The Aurion is the way to go.
As for grant money I dont know, enlighten me? I know its less then Ford and Holden though who have got 600 million recently… Toyota gets some for building in Australia etc but the others get it for bullshyte like developing new technologies like hybrids or the I6 meeting emmissions standards. The hybrids in particular is annoying, Ford on an international level would be doing it… why the hell does the minow Ford Aus do it!!!
paul…
1. i never said FWD was less efficient than a RWD setup, i’m saying the aurions efficiency is not any better than a RWD falcon or commodore, which it’s NOT!
I know the techincal terms, no need to bring them up in order for you try and win this debate. In the REAL world the Aurion drinks the same amount of fuel as the falcon and commodore, so would you say it guzzles fuel? The falcons inline 6 cyl engine is TECHNICALLY less advanced than the Holdens 3.6 HF V6, yet beats it in operation, execution is everything, not always what you start with…FWD is technically more efficient, yet in the REAL world has no decernable benefit over the RWD falcon and commodore.
Another example…toyota uses strut front suspension, just like BMW uses on some models, yet who can tune the struts to perform like there is no commonality between the two??
Understand the point yet?
2. RWD can be fined tuned over FWD for everyday driving dynamics, an Aurion or any toyota for that matter has inferior dynamics to most other vehicles in their respective classes. The new corolla can’t even beat a 3 year old mazda 3, or an astra, or a Golf for handling, hang on they can beat a kia, hyundai, sorry!
FWD is a huge benefit in snowy conditions. Drive a BF11, a VE and aurion and tell me which is nicer, easier and FUN to drive…you might learn something there…
3. What you have just said proves my thoughts in relation to general Toyota buyers…not all of us want white goods on wheels;)
Most other makes and models are just as reliable, but bring a little more excitment and emotion in everyday motoring.
Toyota is safe in some peoples mind, doesn’t make them better…you need to think outside the box a little and realise not everything is black and white.
You claimed the grant money is more for Ford and Holden, prove it.
Your last few sentences make no logical sense to me…
if i understand it right, i would respond with, why does Toyota get it, everything they do in AUS they do internationally!?
Also, falcons torque level is the highest, but the killer is the rev range at which the torque arrives…
383nm@2,500, no other engine has the low kick in of torque…
I find it amusing that you basically agree how profit figures can be obscured in the auto sector…but then go on and on about Toyota having profit this last finacial year, if one bloody year counted, Toyota AUS wouldn’t be here NOW! your wrong about the profit, admit it, get over it, your WRONG!
Your splitting hairs, my original statement was Toyota has made less profit than Ford and Holden over the last 5 years, regardless of whos market leader or not.
OK?
Adam there are a million things I could talk about from your last post, I get the feeling we are just going to keep going around in circles. So Im gonna do the right thing and end it. Although I would still like to here from Andrew.M about this hige difference in torque still.
fair enough…One point though. Toyota worldwide is cash rich…why can’t they…
Build class leading vehicles, with distinctive style?
mazda and Honda can, yet are small in comparison.
It’s taken toyota AUS 30 years to build a competitive vehicle against falcon and commodore.
I recall Toyotas Aussie boss back in 1992 saying the then new wide body camry would steal the sales crown away from falcon and commodore…then i realised how arrogant Toyota AUS could be when it came to what Aussies wanted in a full sized vehicle, ever wonder why commodore and falcon have remained with RWD unique platforms for so long? It would had been easier for Ford and Holden to switch to a common, corporate FWD platform, but they didn’t. Much like what everyother manufacturer selling cars here today does.
If fuel prices remained low and didn’t shoot through the roof, our car market wouldn’t have changed all that much compared to how it’s drastically altered in the last 2 years.
thats not to mention Toyota AUS offers, no affordable V8s, utes, wagons. the expensive Lexus excluded for V8s.
Adam stop temptin me, just quickly:
1. The widebody camry was decent, but back then people were still against the Jap brands. The engine in the original Gen3 was decent, 140kw and 260Nm from 2500rpm… better then the Commodore and just off the Falcon. Sure it wasnt quite as big but it offered decent room and styling wise imo they were all ugly back then. So I dont think it was all arrogance on Toyotas part. Now though Toyota is slowly changing; the Aurion, Corolla and Camry are very distinctive and I think their recent profit success has come off the back of this… finally buyers get the reliablity etc of a Toyota engine with the decent looks they always wanted.
2. Toyota Aus offers a larger range of passenger and commercial vehicles then Holden by a country mile and than Ford. In abit more detail:
V8s – Well the AVERAGE price of the local V8s isnt to far off the Lexus 8’s
Utes – Ummm Hilux, by far the best in its class
Wagons – Use to offer the Camry in wagon form, obviously sales told them it was pointless having them in their range as Ford and Holden are dominant in this deparment.
More temptation?…
1. My point was it’s taken Toyota very long to even come close, why? because they persisted with FWD.
Hence why commodore and falcon remained RWD and have had unique platforms.
The camry finally has more attractive styling, while the Aurion is a half hearted atempt at changing a camry into a lardge car.
Corolla…distinctive!? ok. Toyota AUS profits come of the back of exports otherwise altona would be in the red. This would indicate that Ford has been running very lean and efficiently comapred to both Holden Toyota with miniscule exports.
2. A bigger range does not = equal a better choice or better cars. The average price of local V8s is most certianly far distance from the Lexus V8s…
The cheapest V8 lexus i could find starts from $123,000 while the cheapest Ford V8 starts from $44,990, a difference of $78,000, in your honest opinion, is this difference ‘not far off’??
hilux…is the best in class, not by a country mile though…as the hilux is the most expensive, so it would want to be! price also comes into the equation of a vehicles overall abilities.
I didn’t know you could buy camry/aurion ute!? falcon and commodore make safer, more comfortable car based utes than Toyotas Hilux.
Toyota AUS does not offer a wagon in camry or corolla due to the fact they take corporate platforms and don’t have the flexibility to build there own like Ford and Holden…
Ford and Holden are dominant with wagons…just like they hold the majority of the large car class, why?
fuel prices are the biggest factor for large sedans falling in sales, not Toyotas so called efficiency, reliability or reading the market right.
Next…
well where do i start??
1. well if you look at what i said you will see i said the I6 would be NOT AS WIDE as the V6.
my I6 4.0L is 210mm wide (take off headers of course). so unless you can tell me your V6 is 209mm wide I am right. i know v6’s narrow at the bottom but i still think it would struggle to beat that, they dont narrow to nothing. i said the main dimension change was in height, so how does it give you more space when nothing is fitted on top or below the motor when you reduce the height? hey im not saying V6’s arent easier to package, i dont know that i dont pack them for a living and im sure you dont either, but i have said dimensional measures would certainly be smaller
2. how do you sum up the I6 is less balanced? just curious. i mean when compared to the commy (cause thats what falcon always gets compared to and vice versa) people say the I6 is much more balanced and smoother.
3. since when was “comparible” performance considered an advantage to V6. doesnt that mean they cancel themselves out as it could also be an advantage in the I6 score board. comparible means no advantage to either side. gee you are really digging there.
4. ok you cant buy an engine by the Litre. i see what you are trying to do though. you are the master of manipulating facts ill give you that. you must be studying to be a politition.
for 1 you math was wrong. i see you rounded down the falcon yet rounded up the commy.
ok to satisfy you you must times 96nm x3.6L for the ford to get a true comparison with the commy (not break it down like you did) otherwise you could say…
9.6nm per .1L Ford
9.2nm per .1L Holden
now that would be just as silly and you can see it illustrates nothing
now back on track……….
so you could say a 3.6L ford would be….
3.6L ford = 346nm
3.6L holden = 330nm (thats how you do the comparo you tried to do)
but i say since the ford has the extra .4L and uses no more fuel i.e. is more efficient, then it can count.
dont pull the sv6 into it as that competes with the XR6 turbo.
in summary the difference is still 53nm cause it is.
and if you doubt 53nm isnt much or doesnt mean any thing then you cement my opinion that you dont know what torque is.
i will also re-frase
have you ever felt the torque difference in vehicles before?
oh yeah as adam said the key with the falcon is also the very low range where it is all on tap. the F6 is a great show of that with 550nm all from 2000rpm
5. the profit thing. ok you are now admitting that you have to judge profit over a period of time. so why are you hung up on the “now”?? toyota is in their “cream” part of the cycle whilst ford is in the “labour” part of the cycle. so you must take the average of the last 6-7 years to ensure figures arent falsefyed. in summary what adam reflects with the figures is right.
so are you saying you would buy a business based on 1 years of figures? (dont get cut im not trying to say toyota are going down the drain)
6. correction….. used on roads at low speeds there is, well, NO difference. you cant say the FWD is better at these conditions especially when you had said previously that there is no difference.
1 main reason i believe RWD has better connection to the road is not because of opinionated road tests but also tyre wear. we all know tyre wear is indicative of grip levels, and well rears on a FWD dont wear.
also you state greater fuel efficiency from FWD, so where is it? hey ill talk your language he he he…..
toyota 3.5L =2.83L per 100k’s per Litre
Ford 4.0L =2.55L per 100K’s per Litre
so where is this greater efficiency?? he he he
hey did i say thats the way you prove the world too?
gee id hate to see a RWD toyota fuel figures then.
7.grant money,
well dont ford and holden develop a lot more in australia? YES
so isnt it fair they get more? YES
would you think it would be fair to give asians coming here on holiday or work visa etc the pension or whatever? NO
I too am waiting to hear to grant toyota gets
8.hybrids and enviro friendly stuff……
mate ford AUS are doing it, they are developing a hydrogen car and they also have a gas model falcon hello!!! the only car here produced on gas.
what does toyota have especially toyota AUS.
and on the prius (the car toyota fooled people with cause they are now figuring out it wasnt all it was cracked up to be) lets have a look at your style figures on this one…….
prius 1.5L = 70.7g of co2 per km
falcon petrol!! 4.0L = 60.7g of co2 per km
NOTE: sorry i get confused when you demonstrate how good toyota AUS is by using the corolla???
9. and yes toyota does offer a much larger range. maybe thats why they sell more too. ill let you do the comparo figures on “units sold divide by models”
toyota doesnot beat ford for sales in any category that ford AUS competes.
large car….ford beats toyota sales
SUV……….ford beats toyota sales
utes………ford beats toyota sales
10. utes brings me to the last one,
hilux is NOT by far the class leader. falcon ute ring a bell? i mean how do you make your judgement?
yep falcon gets hilux on sales
yep falcon is more powerfull than hilux
yep falcon handles better than hilux
yep falcon is more comfortable than hilux
yep falcon has more features than hilux
now ill be funny…. do you know what a ute is?
This is so crap, i want a aussie made car not inported american crap, i suppose that what you get when ford australia has a american for a boss…….
Adam…
Well then your point is crap then mate. I said previously, the widebody for example was competitive, just as powerful etc… but when its in a market that back then was more resistant to foreign brands its going to be an uphill battle. We still see this resistance in the fleet market, not really in the private sales though. It had nothing to do with FWD. As for the Aurion being a half hearted attempt, well lol that half hearted attempt is currently at least (Orion may change things) the class leader!!!
I didn’t quite get the last big of your post… fuel is why the large car market is going down, not Toyotas reliability etc? Not sure if that makes any sense.
Andrew.M…
1. I already said Im not going to bother with this argument, as its just dumb… V6s are a more compact unit. Period.
2. Umm what now? I don’t think I ever said (or at least meant to say) an I6 was less balanced… that it ridiculous. The whole reason why they get more torque is because I6s are more balanced, but as I showed, the difference that may exist is negligible. And your example, yes the Commodore is a POS. You compare benchmark vs benchmark local engine wise, so Aurion v Falcon. Again backing up a negligible difference as the Aurions engine is a derivative of one which was like the top 10 engines of the year…. What about Fords I6?
3. Not sure what that’s about
4. Lol all your little workings are just proving what I already did mate. Breaking it down was just one way to show you how wrong you were…. You showed another away, of how wrong you are!! And your way of working it out is WRONG I think…. You wanna do it your way then its simply:
Commodore 3.6L = 330Nm
Falcon 3.6L = 342Nm ( (380/4) * 3.6 )
Even if we go off yours, 16Nm…. Is this a massive difference? Hardly. Then we consider the true difference of 12Nm, hardly any difference as well especially when you consider that tuning gets the SV6 to 340Nm so the difference is only 2Nm!!! Massive difference? Do you really wanna continue this stupidity?
5. Toyota had a dispute in regards to taxes I believe in recent years… this effected their profit figures. And as I also said Ford etc get larger govt handouts, 70million the year they made a 150million profit while Toyota only made 50million profit. You don’t think these handouts distort the true position of the company compared to its competitors!? A 80million profit turns into 150million.
6. What is your point that rears don’t wear as much? Is it that FWDs are cheaper… which is a good thing lol!!! Id understand where your coming from if FWDs had a tendency is oversteer because of a lack of rear grip, but this doesn’t happen, so what is your point exactly? In fact the lack of work of the rear is highlighted as a positive of them, with a RWD you can experience bad understeer (going to hard into corner) and oversteer (powering to much through one). In a FWD you only experience understeer (Powering through or going to hard into a corner) so you control this and your set, apply power out of a corner and it keeps the arse down and follows the rest. Oh and btw Im not saying FWD cant oversteer at a ll, brake lifting makes them oversteer due to a lack of weight at the back, but you really have to induce this, Im talking normal circumstances.
7. What they develop? An I6 which is now scrapped. Something like 600 million taxpaper dollars put into it, to get emissions down, to develop hybrid technology etc…. for what? Think about it, that’s a lot of money wasted.
8. Lol I just touched on that… all of which is now USELESS given that they are no longer using the I6 which they developed all this technology on. As for your figures Im not sure, your trying to say the I6 emits less? You have to be kidding. As for Prius, Im one of the people who will say its not all its portrayed as… but its still alittle more enviro friendly then your average car and its developing and fine tuning a technology that in the future will be substantially better for the enviro. Lets think long term here not short term.
9. Camry + Aurion sales I think might be over Falcon sales in ‘large car’ segment. And the Corolla is over Fords Focus or Fiesta. I again don’t know what your getting at, Toyota sells A LOT more cars then Ford, this has to mean they outsell Ford in many areas.
10. Hilux is more of an SUV kinda thing but people looking at utes will go look at the Hilux, which is a class leader. Tell me, is your Falcon ute sold overseas? Didn’t think so… the Hilux is an international car.
Paul,
1. yeah lets let that one go i still claim im right as all i said was the I6 is narrower than the V6. not that it counts for anything, really does it?
2. well whether you meant to say the V6 was more balanced or not, you did say it. i just picked you up on it thats all so dont black mark me for that one
3. this was about where you listed advantages of the V6 and you said comparitive performance. im saying if it is comparitive then how come you see it as an advantage to the V6?
4. paul both of our figures were wrong the ford should have read…
3.6L ford = 345nm i must have miscalculeted i think you need to check the torque figure on the falcon before you comment on my math again.
yes i admit that its like 16nm (when done like that) but the falcon has an overall difference of 53nm and thats all i have said.
i have said previously that if ford went to the V6 they would lose a lot of torque.
is that correct?
do you think 53nm is a lot?
5. Q5. had nothing to do with taxes so why bring it up? take fords grant off and dont ford still reflect more anyway?
Q5. was about the fact that profit should be guaged over several years and not one. do you agree.
would you buy a business based on 1 years of figures?
6. i dont know how you cant understand what im saying here………..
high tyre wear means high griplevels right?
low tyre wear means low grip levels right?
stop throwing under and over steer at me i have never once said the word. what i have said before is that on road conditions you wouldnt notice between RWD and FWD
oh and no comment on the fuel consumption think?
7. well they didnt spend 600million on it then scrap it straight away did they? how old is the DOHC motor? figure that out then add 3yrs cause it had quite a servicable life.
still why do you whinge toyota gets less grant money? do you think its fair since they do develop less here? not just talking about the I6 i mean as a whole company.
8. what i have proved with the prius is that it only emitts less because it is a smaller motor.
and the other point stands that ford is doing more than toyota since they have 2 projects to toyotas 1
9.gee dont go adding multiple models to satisfy yourself.
easy…. does falcon sell more than aurion OR camry?
and if you read my comments properly i said FORD AUS. focus is not FORD AUS!!!!!
just for you FORD AUS models
Falcon
Falcon ute
Territory
if you dont know what im on about you must have “selective reading”. yes toyota sell more OVERALL but fail to outsell any one of FORD AUS models. TRUE?????????
yes toyota also sell more overall cause they are uncontested by ford in many categories true??????
10. mate where the car is sold means nothing especially when we are talking australian made, yes poor old australia who cant export outside of NZ.
hilux is not a SUV. even if it were what does it matter?
still, tell me how you figure the Hilux is a class leader? also a 10 yr old falcon ute scores better than a brand spanker hilux in terms of safety (forgot that one)
Im getting tired of this as its going around in circles, so I will just answer the biggest issue I see…
QUOTE = 6. i dont know how you cant understand what im saying here………..
high tyre wear means high griplevels right?
low tyre wear means low grip levels right?
stop throwing under and over steer at me i have never once said the word. what i have said before is that on road conditions you wouldnt notice between RWD and FWD
oh and no comment on the fuel consumption think?
Lol but as I said Andrew.M…. FWDs dont oversteer, so there is no issue of rear grip. And your more wear = high grip levels is FLOORED… the reason why RWD have more rear wear is because they are the powered wheels mate, so naturally they wear quickr, not because they have more grip!!!!
Black and white questions for Paul……
1. does the Ford I6 have a lot more torque 53nm?
2. why is the V6 aurion no more fuel concious than the ford I6? considering you said it was a more efficient vehicle.
3.how is the hilux a class leader?
4.why does the I6 emmit less co2 than its competitors V6 variants
5. yeah i dont care about FWD RWD stuff im not one of those “torque steer bandits” but did you know you can control the rear of a car with acceleration?
6. does the Falcon, Falcon ute and territory (thats the 3 Ford AUS mods) outsell its toyota competitors?
please answer all questions and not skip over the ones you got nothing for, even if it means you just acknowledge it
1. Does the GTS’ 6L pushrod have more torque then the I6? Torque has a positive relationship with displacement, Ive already showed you there isnt a massive difference between V6 and I6…. its time to admit defeat.
2. What are the official figures? The Aurion does consume less fuel, but under normal driving your hardly going to notice it alot as one driver might say his Falcon gets for eg 7L highway while the Aurion says 7.2L… yet the Aurion driver had to slow down and speed up or overtake etc. As I already said, if you could somehow get them in identical driving situations the Aurion would return better efficiency, but realworld, not a difference… but it exists. And when I mention FWD efficiency its not just fuel efficiency either but also other things like getting the power to the wheels (less is lost than in RWD)
3. Its an internatationally sold vehicle. How about the Falcon? You really think a car designed and developed here is better then something which has had alot more money poured into it? Hasnt top gear also recently been testing it and has been amazed with its quality? I will admit Im not the person youd go to for info on utes etc… but the above facts Ive stated would indicate its above the local competition.
4. I dont know what this has to do with anything, you previously mentioned all these grip things, I assume your changing of the subject is admitting defeat? And I dont understand your question, control the rear of a car with acceleration? What are you talking about exactly… RWDs? FWDs? Im lost in translation.
5. What are you getting at? Toyota has a 22% market share while Ford has only 10%. Obviously Toyota sells ALOT more cars. As for answers, Toyota sells more Aurions privately (those who use their own money) then Falcons (Camrys + Aurions might even outsell them no matter what)…. Falcon ute wise I really dont know, the Hilux is quite popular but Id be incline to say the Falcon just wins because they are part of a culture in Australia rather then being better then something like a Hilux… and lastly the Territory I honestly think Toyota might have them, they offer the Kluger and Prado which you could argue are both against the Territory and combined they would be close (gut feeling though would say territory might just have them). Again I ask, what is your point?
1. far out Paul we are talking about stock standard 6cyl’s. but you pointing out the GTS prooves a flaw in your beliefs. (im not saying its not related to displacement but so is everything in terms of motors usually)
do you want to rate the aurion fuel economy and co2 emission standards like that too? the falcon would smash it if you showed the figures like that!!!!!!
new question…..
how come the 4.0L typhoon 270kw has the same amount of torque as the 6.0L GTS 307kw (550nm)
do your sums on that please……. so if the GTS were a 4.0L how much would it scale to???
2.paul,
QUOTE………….
“Improved drivetrain efficiency: the direct connection between engine and transaxle reduce the mass and mechanical inertia of the drivetrain compared to a rear-wheel drive vehicle with a similar engine and transmission, allowing greater fuel economy. ”
you call this you credible source???
so as it says FWD allows greater fuel economy so where is it.
you contradict yourself when you say…..
“Aurion would return better efficiency, but realworld, not a difference… but it exists.”
how can it exist if you say in real world there is no difference? what world are you in? also as you are fully versed in the relationship between displacement and true performance could you please tell me what fuel figures a 3.5L Falcon would deliver?
3.Paul once again we are talking with in australia!!!!
thats right the only place on earth where the 2 can be compared. please list a few things that make it a class leader over the falcon ute….. WAITING.
and the fact that the vehicle is sold internationally has nothing to do with its class leadership does it?
4. yeah let #4 go any way it wont resolve and i didnt change subject i just tried to explain it differently. i have said you wont notice the difference under normal conditions anyway. all i was getting at was the relationship between tyre wear and grip. do you believe there is such thing?? have you ever bought pirelli’s, paid like $300 each and wondered why they wear soo quick? yep thats because they really hang on.
5. i agree with your first 2 lines i cant and havent denied it.
no no no stop using fleet arguments!!!! what is toyota’s fleet sales as a whole company??? people in glass houses dont throw stones.
main fleet sellers for toyota =
landcruiser
corolla
hiace
hilux
tarago
camry and ive prob missed some
sales are sales and it doesnt matter. point is i dont try to take fleet sales off toyota because they are still sales. so dont take it off others.
also you cant put 2 cars sales together. what is toyota so shit they put 2 cars in the clas and then only just make nearly the same sales?
so are you also saying the falcon ute isnt part of culture? who hasnt heard of a hilux? or recognise it as a work vehicle?
so are you saying the hilux is better than the falcon? thats fine to say that BUT please give me the reasons………..
the main things the falcon has over the hilux is..
power,comfort and styling the main things people look at so quick what do you have??
once again with the territory you cant add sales together even though it still doesnt meet territory sales.
what you are saying in doing that is ford are a more efficient company because they are able to extract 2x the sales from 1 model compared to toyota only getting half
well you point out that performance and displacement have a direct effect, then ill tell you so does models/products offered and sales
do this…..
#of models ford has divide by total sales
#of models toyota has divide by total sales
1. Mate are your kidding? Maybe because its turbocharged….. we are talking NA, not boosted. Torque is related to Displacement. The different between the Commodores best NA V6 and the Falcons best NA V6 is a “HUGE” 5Nm when put in real terms.
2. Are you not getting my point? Real world there are so many variables like driving style which make any difference (something like .3L per 100km) really insigificant as we argued in another article. BUT given the exact same circumstances (impossible) the Aurion would return marginally better fuel consumption more notably. And as I already said your interpreting efficiency as fuel efficiency, its about more than jus that as I said.
3. I already said I dont know heaps, but the Falcon not having any internationally appeal speaks leaps and bounds. As said, the Hilux is world know for its durability, the Falcon isnt even know for that locally. Its just a fashion statement.
4. Lol ummm not its not neccesarily because they are really haning on mate, usually the more expensive tyres use a softer compound which wears quicker. Granted in most cases they do grip better but it also has alot to do with tread pattern. Again your point is floored, I already said there are other variables in your ‘no grip in FWD rear end’ arugment in relation to wear, just admit you were wrong!
5. The Corolla, which is Toyotas highest selling fleet vehicle… sells something like 50% to fleets while Ford and Holden are in the 80s. I think in light of this we should consider it.
QUOTE = well you point out that performance and displacement have a direct effect, then ill tell you so does models/products offered and sales
do this…..
#of models ford has divide by total sales
#of models toyota has divide by total sales
Ummm what is your point? That Toyota is smarter… because they offer real 4WDs… or people movers etc. These are areas Ford dont even compete in. Then you forget your Toyota v Australia LOCAL only argument and consider things like the Corolla against the XR4 and Focus and again they win. The only area they win in is the locals, the Falcon and Territory… and its not because of a better product but more blind loyalty to the Australian product. The Aurion for example is FAR superior to the current Falcon yet people still buy it… the only reason for this is blind loyalty.
1. ok this one is getting off track.
does the 6cyl motor available in the falcon have and always had like 53nm more than its competitors?
(yes or no)
is 53nm a lot (yes or no)
what i have said is if ford were to drop their current motor for the proposed V6 they will lose 53nm or so, and that is true. they have always had that big torque difference over its competitors.
2. im not going on about efficiency in terms of other things, just the fuel part. ie the part i quoted.
also you have to assume these fuel tests are done fairly. how do you know it wasnt the falcon that was stopped at more sets of lights? thats right you are just ASSUMING the aurion would be better cause you are a little bit biased to it arent you? come on admit it i wont tell.
and since you love to relate stuff to displacement why havent you commented on this one yet? fuel economy……….
toyota 3.5L =2.83L per 100k’s per Litre of disp
Ford 4.0L =2.55L per 100K’s per Litre of disp
which means
toyota 3.5L = 9.9L 100k
ford 3.5L = 8.9L 100k
plus the toyota is FWD so if it were RWD would you say it would be like 11L 100k?
3. paul yet again we are talking in AUSTRALIA. australia is a small country and just because other countries dont recognise us yet doesnt mean we dont come up with some good stuff.
ok so you can get a daewoo in a lot more countries than the falcon so are you saying the daewoo is better too? where it is sold means nothing in relation to its qualities and im sure they dont rate that when they do road tests which means when they look for a “class leader” they rank it against what they can get next door to compare it to.
has a falcon and hilux been compared (yes or no)
does the falcon offer more (yes or no)
the falcon isnt a fashion statement if any ute is its the maloo. but as a ute the falcon is the better. what does every farmer typically have? a rusty old falcon ute. because they are rugged and durable.
4. paul tread pattern has nothing to do with grip. that is purely related to compound. the tread pattern acts as a means of sheading water of the road when it rains. (oh yeah whats rain? he he)
i would have let it go but you had to add this ……
just admit you were wrong!.
now you can admit you are wrong by stating tread pattern has a lot to do with grip.
5.well i thought corolla was at least 60% fleet, you wouldnt be trying to make it look good now would you. dont tell me you dont know the exact figure cause you would be silly to know everyone elses fleet % and not “your brand”….. toyotas”
thats exactlly my point toyota wins sales in classes ford doesnt compete in.
forget the focus corolla thing.
ford AUS means AUSTRALIAN MADE not australian sold
focus is just new here too dont forget same as fiesta.
so tell me how does the corolla go against the focus in europe cause thats an established market for them.
also with 4wd’s anyone who knows about them will tell you that the toyota actually lacks in offroad ability. i dont know where this comes from…. QUOTE
“That Toyota is smarter… because they offer real 4WDs”… yep im guessing you dont know about utes or 4wd’s now
oh yeah where i was going with that thing you quoted me on is how come toyota needs to add the sales of 2 models to equal (or if that) the sales of 1 vehicle of ford (aus made). is that efficient production? so whos bottom line in the large car and suv department would look better?
there are also plenty of blind loyal toyota fans like yourself too dont forget especially in the hilux/lancruiser department
1. Haha nah mate, recently we have been talking inline vs V. Sure there is a different between the V6 that Ford would use instead, its a smaller engine afterall.
2. Haha well done, you could say in those terms the I6 is better… but we all know the trade off of performance is fuel efficiency, so Toyota to get that 3.5L V6 to have more power then Fords 4L I6 have had to per L reduce its efficiency. But I think you will find that Toyota didnt just say its the most fuel efficient, they also mentioned the fact that it returns better efficiency while having more power.
3. Tread pattern does effect dry grip to mate, maybe not alot… but it does. Anyway it all started from your lack of rear grip thing, you know its wrong now… FWDs have no real issues with a lack of rear grip.
4. Haha I said ’something like’, 60% sounds better but eitherway its nowhere near the 88% and 81% of Ford and Holden. As for competing sales and all that… as I said its really hard to say its a better product because it sells more then a foreign product isnt it, of course the local will get more sales. Eg the Mihandra pik up, very popular in India, not even considered by anyone in Australia.
As for the last bit, are you FOR REAL!!! Alot of our arguments are questionable, and can go eitherway… but Toyotas 4WDs lacking offroad ability? How about class leading for their price!!! The Landcruiser is one of the most popular 4WDs worldwide based on its offroad capabiltiies, particularly the troop carrier version. And you dont have to look far for reviews on other Toyota 4WDs such as the Prado which also get favourable results. Id like to see a Prado + Landcrusier up against Ford Australias best the Territory!!! And this leads to another point, I find it funny that being a land with wide expanses of outback that the local brands Ford and Holden dont offer true 4WDs, thats almost criminal!
1. ok now qoute me on where i said I6 set up in general VS V6 set up in general……
i have originally said the I6 falcon motor has a big torque advantage vs the V6 they will trade for
2.well you finally see my point on fuel efficiency. thank you and i point out that the falcon 4.0L also pollutes a fair bit less when approached from the same angle.
power isnt always a trade off with efficiency. a great example is putting on a better exhaust, more power and you will actually use less fuel. also how come the move from BA to BF saw a power increase yet a fuel consumptipon decrease?
also i dont rate the most powerfull car in terms of the power figure they love to splash out with. the most powerfull car has to have the ability to sustain the power under load aswell. aka pulling power i suppose (somewhere where the toyota suffers).
just like a running race. you have to have stamina aswell or you only look good for a little bit
3. tread doesnt do shit for dry grip!!!! ok then why do race vehicle, drags and circuit racing run slicks??????? gee its a wonder they stay on the track you reckon? pffft tread is for a compromise when it rains
once again you have taken me out of context. i have never said RWD grips better than FWD in normal conditions. i simply commented on the observations that rears on FWD dont wear and simply applied the theory no wear = no grip
go drive some go carts too and you will learn how the RWD helps them turn better under acceleration. they pretty much wont turn unless you put some gas in to them.
4. the thing im getting at with fleet sales is it doesnt matter…. sales are sales….
now would you cop that the mazda actually outsells the corolla when you only consider private sales. yep so as far as you are concerned the corolla isnt the biggest seller is it?
last bit.
well landcruiser best in class for price?
well hilux and landcruiser are prob the worst value for money in their class.
yep most people will tell you the partol is actually better off road. they have had coil overs for a long long time giving them better flexibility over the toyota leafs.
well it wouldnt be landcruiser against territory it would be landcruiser against explorer. cause the landcruiser isnt australian either ford also can draw from its over seas bank.
i do agree though in that i dont know why either ford or holden dont care about 4wd’s here.maybe they see them dying i dont know (even though its just a case of importing them like toyota does) especially when the explorer is i believe the biggest seller by far over there
You guys need to get laid. Shut up!
ryan i am getting laid while i type thats why some of my spelling sliiiiippppppsssss
Straight six…
1960-2010 RIP.
A BFII (For apparent improved refinement and the ironing out of bugs from the BA, BA Mk II and BF models) Fairmont with the i6 engine and a 6 speed ZR Sports-Auto would easily be on my top 5 cars list, combine that with the fact other than the foreign trans is probably the only true Australian car today, “apparently” has great comfort, room, road holding and steering so really either a very good send-off or a possible last-minute reversal of the decision is very much in order. If they continue making V12s and V8s why not a 4.0L i6.
when i saw the prado vx i told my dad to by that car prado vx then he said ok then he the 4.0L prado and it splashing in the rain water it splash it on one car then the othter car give as hon then are prado ran in the water .
i like prado its my dream car
the prado vx is the powerfull then all the prados