Ford Kills the I6 Engine - Official Details
18 Jul, 2007
92 Comments 
Ford Australia have just confirmed the company will import a global new Duratec V6 engine from 2010. The move will see a range of basic and high performance engines as the powerplant of Australia’s iconic Falcon, Falcon Ute and Territory model lines.
“The Australian car market has fundamentally and permanently changed,” said Ford Australia President Mr Tom Gorman.
Ford says the move is primarily an attempt to not only meet emissions ratings but also give the company the flexibility to potentially incorporate future alternative fuel strategies, such as diesel technology.
Ford also blames the diminishing demand for large cars and the corresponding increase in popularity of smaller, imported vehicles (VFACTS figures show a drop in market share of 16.7 per cent in the lat 9 years.
“Although we remain committed to our current local vehicle lines – Falcon, Falcon Ute and Territory, it is imperative that we improve our ability to respond to the increasing consumer desire for alternative fuels, improved performance, and better fuel economy while spreading the investment required across a broader base of vehicles. Importing the new engine from 2010 will allow us to achieve these goals.” Mr Gorman added.
The decision to ditch the I6 engine will mean Ford will discontinue its Australian I6 engine operations in Geelong come 2010. Ford says redeployment opportunities will be maximised wherever possible and the company will work closely with its employees and unions to minimise the impact on the 600 people affected by the decision.
Despite the news, construction continues at the company’s new Research & Development Centre, ($1.8 billion investment program), and is due for completion later this year. Everything will also remain unchanged at the Ford’s test facilities at Lara along with usual operations at the company’s stamping plant and Ford Discovery Centre.
Ford has announced the company’s remaining 1400 employees in Geelong and 3000 in Campbellfield will not be directly impacted by the decision.
“We look forward to working with our employees to ensure we can deliver on the next step in our process to continue building our business here in Australia.” Mr Gorman said.
The new engine will come from high volume US engine facilities that are expecting engine production to hit nearly one million per year by 2011. Ford Australia currently only produces 70,000 engines each year.
Ford have also confirmed a slight change of plans for its Campbellfield manufacturing plant with moves to help increase productivity and capacity utilisation.
“We are currently investigating a number of alternatives that will allow us to return our Campbellfield manufacturing facility to 100 per cent capacity,” said Mr Gorman.
2010 will see the end of one of Australia’s most loved engines, the inline six engine will undoubtedly receive a worthy farewell in due time.
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July 18th, 2007 at 2:29 pm
FIRST
Shame but reality
The whole car will be dead within 10 years if not less, they need one thing to survive…BUYERS!
Who wants a Orion when its going to have a obsolete donk?
No more rooted head-gsks. and cylinder heads, thats 1 good point!
Aurion must be laughing!
Poor Geelong, poor employees
Cheers
F_O
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July 18th, 2007 at 2:30 pm
good bye old friend, you have had a great run, i wonder what ford are planning for the farewell run
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July 18th, 2007 at 2:33 pm
It is reality, lets hope Ford AUS does a good job installing the new V6 into falcon:))
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July 18th, 2007 at 2:36 pm
Frugal one…what are you on about…?? Aurion laughing? Aurion V6 is not made here and the Aurion is not developed or designed here!
wake up…
head gasket issues, again, not sure what pipe your smoking?
have you driven the ZF 6speed auto and inline 6 combo?? doesn’t sound like it.
Why do people who have no logical sense in relation to auto information bother to post on an auto forum!?
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July 18th, 2007 at 2:42 pm
I have a heavy heart today.
It is people like you Frugal one that have failed in this country with your lack of faith in it’s products.
As for buyers I wouldn’t worry to much, the Falcon will remain the best car in this country and one of the best sellers.
RIP the best engine ever made in this country.
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July 18th, 2007 at 2:45 pm
What a sad day for Aussies. Especially Ford Australia and Falcon I6 devotees. Scary how easily such a brand name Aussie icon can be killed…..almost like Vegemite being lost overseas. Loyalists are likely to buy an I6, put it in storage and watch the failure of Falcon forever more. I6 R.I.P.
Silly silly pencil pushers.
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July 18th, 2007 at 2:49 pm
Wouldn’t surprise me if they change the Falcons name in 2010 as well.
They have already ripped the heart out of the beast.
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July 18th, 2007 at 2:52 pm
yeh call it the Yankon….
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July 18th, 2007 at 3:01 pm
Well it was meant to happen with the last euroIII emissions coming in and Ford just got it over the line but these new ones are tight. I know i will not buy a V6 Falcon, ill miss the torque too much so it looks like from 2010 onwards im only getting v8s.
The sad thing is if Ford US allowed Falcon imports into north america there may have been enough funding to keep I6 alive being one of only a couple inline 6s left in the world. Looks like if you want one you better save up for a bmw.
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July 18th, 2007 at 3:01 pm
Surely it wouldn’t cost too much to get it up to the new standard.
They are making a big mistake because now they wont have any control over the quality of the next engine. If it is coming from the USA it will be slapped together and have problems.
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July 18th, 2007 at 3:02 pm
This engine will be missed. My brother has a XR6, and the I6 a great engine. It absolutely smashes its direct rivals (think VE and Aurion) for torque, and anyone who tows a boat/caravan/trailer will appreciate how valuable this extra torque is. Its very reliable, refined, powerful and remarkably fuel effecient for a large car. Nothing in this price range currently comes close to the I6 and the 6-speed auto combo in the Falcon.
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July 18th, 2007 at 3:05 pm
Glen,peanut and jbot….
Hear, Hear, Hear!!
Glen my sentiments exactly.
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July 18th, 2007 at 3:26 pm
Before you write off the new V6 read this…
Torque for the 3.5 V6 is 325Nm at a high engine speed of 4500rpm. The V6 can be built in capacities up to 4.0-litre and it may be possible to tune the engine for the sort of heavy duty torque applications for which the Falcon’s in-line six is renowned.
In fact, the 3.5-litre engine is the base powerplant for the F150 commercial vehicle, so torque probably won’t be an issue for a sedan.
This new engine will be ‘E85-compliant’, meaning it could conceivably run on fuel containing 85 per cent ethanol, by volume. The engine may also spawn diesel variants which could be offered in future Falcon and Territory models.
A ‘Twin Force’ version of the V6 with twin turbochargers may replace the XR6T Barra engine.
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July 18th, 2007 at 3:36 pm
Geelong is a hole, a blight on this country and this death blow should surely mean its demise. But in reality if ford can’t do it here well and within cost then they have no business making engines here at all. How poorly must ford be run fi they are struggling making like 5k cars a month when mitsu is swimming along now making 1000.
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July 18th, 2007 at 3:38 pm
Nick…wake up! Mitsubishi shut it’s engine manufacturing too…are some people half alseep?
Agaian become a CEO and start making these decisions away from yr computer desk…
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July 18th, 2007 at 3:50 pm
What about the engine for the Phoon,what will FPV do!! Cut it?
V6 ,BLAH !!!!!
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July 18th, 2007 at 3:59 pm
Sad but necessary news. The biggest downfall for the V6 will possibly be torque, but I’m sure they will sort that one out.
RIP I6.
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July 18th, 2007 at 4:20 pm
i believe the i6 engine will go out with a bang a super fast typhoon massive amount of torque and power no stupid electronic speed restrictions top speed of +330kmh. the last car with this engine in it will be a collectors edition.
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July 18th, 2007 at 4:21 pm
We’ll they had better go out with a bang.
I want to see a twin turbo version released for the last hurrah. It has to be released in all its glory. No detuning so as to fit in under the V8.
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July 18th, 2007 at 4:21 pm
Glen
BMW have or are stopping the production of their i6 engine for a v8. that was a sweet engine 253kw no turbo
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July 18th, 2007 at 4:39 pm
Hi Again!
Frankly the IL6 was ok, but passed its lifecycle!
Let me explain, the engine *is* made in Geelong, where its loaded onto a Double-B-Semi, which has to then travel over 100km to Broadmeadows to be fitted into a vehicles……This is silly!
New V6 will be much more simple, deliever in SKU onsite in Broady and no transport or plant-issues to worry about!
Anyway, the Falcon sales are so little now i dont know what they just dont axe the whole car, esp. seeing the Orion is nothing more than a rehash of whats on the market now with the current model.380 Mitsu has shown it CANNOT be turned around.
What *could* work is pick-up-trucks, F150 style, Fords/USA brilliant and top selling vehicle for over 20 years straight.
GET OVER IT, LARGE CAR SALES ARE FINISHED!
Cheers
F-0
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July 18th, 2007 at 4:42 pm
jbot, you have summed it up perfectly! After 9 years working in a Ford dealership, this would have to be the best Falcon I have had the pleasure of driving. Give me a Falcon instead of the over-rated Commodore & Aurion anyday. Those who jump on the Commodore bandwagon, simply have not driven the Falcon. Get ya blinkers off!!! The sad truth is if Ford did a better job of marketing the Falcon, maybe a different story.. rarely was it advertised and when it was it came across as desperate with price cutting. That’s the only thing Holden & Toyota do better. The Falcon is too good a car to forget… the last true Aussie car.
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July 18th, 2007 at 4:46 pm
Only in the M3.
There is only so much you can extract out of 3.2 litres normaly aspirated.
BMW Motorsports policy is 100 hp for every litre,no less.Wish every one had that policy!!!!!!
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July 18th, 2007 at 4:48 pm
Typical of my beloved ford once again choking when the going gets tough.
The reason no one(but ford followers) buys you cars mr.ford is because of advertising! how is your marketing department(MIA i guess)”no one want’s big cars” says a ford “manager” what CRAP! tell that to all the commodoore buyers!”no one wants v8’s says another once again CRAP! wake up and smell the fish oil and get your act together, the technology in the falcon is superiour to holden , but where is the marketing!!please ford i beg you take the fight to holden don’t let holden take the fight!!!
I love my v8 ford and and i am a passionate ford man, give my something to through at those holden followers every time pulling the ” we have more kilowatts” card Thats why fence sitters by commodores mr.ford,.I could put you back to number 1 with just half of your marketin/advertising budget! wake up mr.ford or sadly R.I.P
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July 18th, 2007 at 5:43 pm
My anti-spam keyword was XR6
Apart from the job loses I don’t see this as a bad thing. That cyclone 3.5L V6 engine looks GREAT and should drop a few kg’s to make up for the loss of torque. Which the Falcon seriously needs right now. Can you imagine a new falcon weighing LESS than the previous model?
“i believe the i6 engine will go out with a bang a super fast typhoon massive amount of torque and power no stupid electronic speed restrictions top speed of +330kmh”
The axle will have exploded at around 250km/h !
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July 18th, 2007 at 5:55 pm
Frugal One,
your comments are unfounded and show how little you know about Ford and the car industry in general.
Large cars sales are shinking but the is still a huge market for them in this country, it would be sheer stupidity to scrap an established product such as Falcon.
And what is your answer to declining large car sales, The even bigger F series truck. Just what every family in Australia needs and the environment.
The falcon is a large family sedan that is great value for money, I for one will buy another one for me and my family.
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July 18th, 2007 at 8:15 pm
i cant see a reduction in fuel consumption with this new engine.
for one the large amount of torque on the falcon pretty much makes the current I6 say “what extra 100kgs”.
also you only need to look at the likes of the aurion V6 to see the “heavier” falcon already uses the same amount of juice.
Torque, Torque, Torque, i cant say it enough. it will mean a drop of like 75NM!!!!!!!
you look every one who tows uses a falcon
i thought ford were heading in a good future thought direction when they were (and still are) the only one to offer LPG as an alternate fuel in their line up.
why not run with this one…..hot up an LPG engine!!(in the form of a turbo) show the world how to do it. you have all the combinations just put em together.
emissions standards will keep getting tougher so it makes sence to smash standards so they wont have to worry about it again for quite a while.
the LPG motor even has more torque than this v6
oh yes and to old mate saying big cars are dead so bring in the F Trucks…..What The????
as for the send off model just let rip ford and tell the world to jamb the emissions standards for 1 model and save a few $$ on it just by throwing away a few mufflers and the cat converter. who needs that many mufflers. 1 is more than enough.
great posts guys. good to see the true ford heart. do you reckon they would get emotion if holden got a new style engine?? nope. nothing historical about the engines they have always imported
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July 18th, 2007 at 11:26 pm
What happened to the hystericaly well researched, informative and well written post about the ‘Mass sackings’ in Geelong?
Lots of comments coming alongm and then, all of a sudden - it was gone - just like that!
Where did it go????
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July 18th, 2007 at 11:55 pm
it went offline, had some sense beaten into it and is now back
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July 19th, 2007 at 8:32 am
the xd falcon weighed less than the xc..
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July 19th, 2007 at 12:10 pm
QUOTE= Frugal one…what are you on about…?? Aurion laughing? Aurion V6 is not made here and the Aurion is not developed or designed here!
What rock did you come from under Adam? Honestly who gives a shyte if its not made here… Im a consumer, I want whats best for me. As for design, the Aurion was designed by an Australia. And eitherway again who cares, congrats on your sense of patriotism but unfortunately we dont have an Aussie car manufacturer, all the money goes overseas anyway so why show loyalty to these so called “Aussie” brands.
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July 19th, 2007 at 12:26 pm
RE
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July 20th, 2007 at 2:59 pm
Paul…
Why does eveything have to be explained in such detail for some to understand?? If you were truly an auto enthusiast, you would get it…
1. I was refering to Frugal Ones comment so did you understand the context of the reply? appears not.
2. The Aurion was not designed here, the front and rear styling was altered by an aussie in japan. I don’t car if it’s desinged here or not either, but i’m sick and tired of people putting Holden and Ford down for sound buisness decisions that have to be made, while Toyota does the exact same thing. obviously you do care, as you seem to think the Aurion was designed here and though it was relevant to mention it.
Also let me inform you Toyota AUS makes one third the average profit of Ford AUS while making even less than Holden, so Toyota HQ bails Toyota AUS out, otherwise they would survive by themselves. Ford and Holden, not so much now, have had to fund there own model developments for the past 20 years.
Where does the platform for the camry/aurion come from?? they certainly don’t develop them here, while platforms for falcon and commodore have had to be developed by Holden and Ford not just re-developments of platforms from overseas…
has nothing to do with patriotism!? Just simple facts.
Maybe you crawled out from under a rock perhaps?
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July 20th, 2007 at 3:01 pm
Paul..re-read Frugal Ones original comment…and you tell me whos needs to be brought up to speed in relation to reliable auto facts.
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July 20th, 2007 at 4:34 pm
For starters Adam what we are talking about here has NOTHING to do with being a car enthusiast or not… your ranting on about the Aurion.
1. As for context, there is no context, you say it wasnt designed or built here… prity basic, I stated yes an Aussie was involved in its design and who cares about it being built here.
2. No I didnt say it was designed here, but an Aussie was involved in the design process… this is common knowledge, go google it because Im not going to school you. Now also explain to me, here is a chance to go into detail… what business practices Toyota have used in Australia that Ford and Holden are using that get critised? I havent seen any sackings recently by Toyota, if anything, more hiring! And I see Toyota sponsoring just about everything these days while the ‘locals’ hardly do anything like that.
As for profits… Im maybe Im confused but aernt Holden and Fords the ones struggling internationally while Toyota go from strength to strength. And Id again like more ‘detail’ about where you get these figures from, the Corolla is second in overall sales while previous and current vehicles like the Echo, Yaris, Camry and Aurion trail not to far behind. Hard to believe given this, and the fact that for example Ford dont even feature in the top 5 more sold vehicles… that they only make 1/3 profit. Granted sales revenue isnt profit, but its a good indication and they would have to have VERY poor business practices to be only making 1/3 profit of someone like Ford Aus who dont sell anywhere near the same amount of cars. Put simply, I think your lying.
Lastly again you talk about where its design and built… are BMWs designe and built here? Merceded maybe? What about Honda’s? List goes on… the best cars in the world AERNT designed and built here, Id say its a good thing it isnt designed here or built (in the case of the engine) here!!! Not that it matters, again, Im a consumer I dont care where its from as long as its the BEST which going off prviate sales (the better indication of a quality product) Toyota are doing very well.
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July 21st, 2007 at 1:15 am
who cares about the aurion, its a FWD boring soul less piece of shit
i just cant believe ford are discontinuing the legendary I6. 30 years of history and its gone. terrible, definatly the end of an era for ford.
as ive stated, to go out with a bang they need to release a twin turbo variant with at least 300-320 Kw, in a coupe and specificly designed as a sports car that can really put it to the japs and euro’s.
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July 21st, 2007 at 9:22 am
Paul…
I’m ranting? I don’t use google for reliable auto information.
You said Australia designed the Aurion, not an ‘aussie. An aussie guy by the name of Nick Hogios, who was selected from a wheels talent trial, who was hired by Ford AUS and who styled the BA XR series falcon and then was poached by Toyota AUS and who facelifted the Aurion and did the work over in Japan.
That good enough for you Paul?
It’s easy to say Toyota AUS doesn’t sack workers when Ford has been building engines here for the past 40 years and has to finally let them go…would you prefer Ford to import engines for the past 40 years, Toyota has already globilized, understand the point yet?
If you had kept up to date with auto information you would already know the profit figures of Holden, ford and Toyota and the rest. Toyota may be market leader but has not overtaken Ford and Holden for profit, FACT.
Mazda sells far fewer than Toyota, yet has pulled the same sort of profit. Maybe Toyota chops the prices and profit, buying market share, yes thats true too, take a look at the average transaction price of mazdas for instance compared to Toyota. I work in the auto trade and have had many toyota dealers admit that one.
Ford lost 40 million last finacial year, the first loss in about 3-4 years. Holden the same story.
Toyota has lost money for the past 4 years and pulled a minute profit this last finacial year.
Toyota worldwide is the richest car company, but not the local outpost, add the profit and loss for each over the last 10 years and the trend suggest Toyota AUS has been making less money than Ford and Holden.
Again…i don’t care whats made or produced here, just don’t go accusing Ford or Holden of letting Aussie workers down when they have employed far more workers over the years and employed more product developers over the years compared to the local Toyota outpost…who fettles a global platform for local consumption. where were you when Holden was put in charge of RWD global platforms for GM? or the fact that it appears Ford AUS is rumored to gain the same responsibility for Ford worldwide?
Satisfied? do some reserch that doesn’t involve the local media and ‘google’ and come back to me…
I’m schooling you it appears…
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July 21st, 2007 at 9:24 am
Paul…also, i said the Aurion is not ‘designed’ or ‘developed’ here, i DIND’T say not assembled here, theres a difference, can you read?
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July 21st, 2007 at 9:28 am
Paul…’FrugalOne’ also stated head gasket issues with the falcon…i guess thats a similar fault to Toyota oil sludge issues in 4 and 6 cyl engines…i take it you don’t believe that one either?
Your a consumer who cares about whats the best deal for you, thats fine, but it shows in your lack of auto knowledge.
just keep buying into the Toyota propaganda.
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July 21st, 2007 at 10:12 am
1. I meant to write Australian but left out the n… so understandable why you misinterpreted it
2. I really dont care if they imported the engine, if it made the Falcon cheaper then my answer would be YES. No problems with Toyota engines which are imported.
3. Well no I am not aware of profits nor do I care. But I still say, I find it hard to believe when you have like 3 Toyota models in the top 5 for sales and someone they make 1/3 the profit of Ford who have NONE in the top 5 of sales. Sure they could be doing other things with the revenue, but the difference in sales is that large I still do no believe it. And hey I might be wrong, but I would think not.
4. Ok for starters mate have a look at my posts, Im pro-ford in relation to the recent events… they are doing the right thing. Holdens recent sackings werent though!
Lol your not schooling me at all… you musnt be readding my posts as Ive said Im in support of Ford on this one… furthermore your other information in relation to the Toyota designer I already knew. Congrats on trying to prove a point, but I think you’ve failed… the whole argument originated around ‘oh toyota dont design or build here’. Ive showed that an Aussie helped desinged it… and getting developed etc here isnt neccessarily a good thing (as I said previous…. I dont think Porsche, Lambo, BMW, Merceded list goes on do that stuff here!! Australian cars aernt exactly world leading).
QUOTE = Paul…also, i said the Aurion is not ‘designed’ or ‘developed’ here, i DIND’T say not assembled here, theres a difference, can you read?
Can you? I never doubted that, I know what your talking about… and as Ive said repeatadly who cares where its designed, developed or even built. Look at the Corolla for example, not developed or designed here or in many other countries… yet its the worlds most popular car.
QUOTE = Paul…’FrugalOne’ also stated head gasket issues with the falcon…i guess thats a similar fault to Toyota oil sludge issues in 4 and 6 cyl engines…i take it you don’t believe that one either?
Your a consumer who cares about whats the best deal for you, thats fine, but it shows in your lack of auto knowledge.
just keep buying into the Toyota propaganda.
Lol that occured because Toyota extended the service intervals (trying to help consumers) and in some cases it caused sludge. In many other cases a lack of maintenance, which in ANY car causes sludge, had caused it. Im not very familiar with the head gasket issues of Ford, but did they pay for it all? Toyota are rebuilding etc for everyone effected, sure initially they have some resistance as the cause wasnt quite clear… but now they are honouring their duty to their customers. And that was ONE engine, the 1MZ-FE, so I am a consumer who wants the best and I dont see a reason to doubt Toyota given that their engines are the best and they did fix the problem when it occured. If you were to totally ignore a manufacturer because of past experiences then Holden for example wouldnt get any business as they are the kings of unreliability… yet they top the sales with the Commodore. Even more so their V8s are selling well which have a history of oil drinking etc!
And you keep talking about a lack of knowledge, whatever makes you sleep at night… but you’ve highlighted nothing new to me.
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July 21st, 2007 at 10:14 am
^
Lol I wrote design and built somewhere in their… when your writing a short stort mistakes are understandable!
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July 21st, 2007 at 10:46 am
Paul…ok, understand. Your wrong about the profit though, sorry. Just look up the information.
Nick Hogios didn’t design the aurion, he changed the front and rear only, big difference.
(Trying to help consumers) in relation to longer intervals, more like trying to show reduced service cots for marketing reasons, ford and holden do the same in this regard.
I’d be doing oil changes every 10,000klm on any car, regardless. Head gasket issues for falcon were prior BA and on engines done around 150,000-300,000klm.
I know 4 people with older falcons with no issues at all, the wrong coolant being used or not servicing the cooling system was the biggest issue with head gasket failures.
Where i work we have just as many issues with toyotas, as with any other make or model, they used to be the best, but most others have caught up. reputation sells Toyotas more than anything these days.
But one fact remains…Toyota does not invest the same dollars as Ford and Holden in AUS for product development, thats fact, regardless of whats better, worse or is top selling.
And they ALL recieve tax payer funded concessions.
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July 21st, 2007 at 1:40 pm
guys who gives a shit about the aurion and toyota. the falcon has over 30 years of australian heritage, and now its just had its soul ripped out of it.
and now ford moves to a inherently unbalanced, unrefined, torqueless, crappy sounding v6
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July 21st, 2007 at 9:45 pm
Unrefined…. torqueless….crappy sounding - All subjective.
Unrefined : Im gonna go back to the Aurion again I know, buts it more refined then the current Falonc I6.
Torqueless : They have less yes, but I dont think the difference is all thar large.
Sound : I actually like the sound of a V6 I dont know whats wrong with it. Look at the R32 for example, with a decent exhaust its the best sounding car under triple figures.
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July 23rd, 2007 at 7:35 am
Paul…come on…all subjective?
You comment that the Aurion is smoother is ’subjective’ also.
I agree the Aurion is smoother, but the difference would not be all that great. right? just like falcons torque advantage?
The falcon can outhandle it, out perform it and drinks no more fuel, while being RWD and heavier, did i mention it can tow better too? All subjective?
Take a look back through the Wheels car of the year on jan 03 when the BA won the award, take a read at some of the judges comments in relation to the way the BA falcon steered and rode against the Merc E-class…
Yes an R32 sounds and performs great, for the money it would want too, bit it’s a far cry from a standard V6 corporate engine.
Paul, yake a read of the latest goauto.com web site for an article of Ford’s actions…you need to read it.
by the way Paul do you actually get to drive any of the cars your commenting on? I do…
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July 23rd, 2007 at 8:10 pm
The I6 will be missed by all I think it’s fair to say.
But it’s easy to see why the execs would cut it, Ford Aus. has been doing poorly in local built sales for a while now, and exporting was really the only option unless they could make them run at 7L/100 (probably possible with the right engineers on it).
So if you want to export a large car there had to be some trade off, that being some sort of contract that would suggest the US would only import something of ours if we imported something of theirs.
That would be my hunch, better to sacrifice 600 and save the company. Sad but true.
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July 23rd, 2007 at 9:57 pm
QUOTE = Paul…come on…all subjective?
As soon as I posted it I realised Torqueless isnt really subjective, inline engines generally have more torque. Sound and refinement are subjective though…. you will get Holden owners trying to tell you the Allyotech is refined while sound wise again its subjective and really is unfounded and I quite like the V6 sound.
QUOTE = You comment that the Aurion is smoother is ’subjective’ also.
I agree the Aurion is smoother, but the difference would not be all that great. right? just like falcons torque advantage?
Sure Im not trying to have a go at the Inline…. talk to other people about that. Im just pointing out that there ISNT that great of a difference!!!!!!! So no need to tell me.
QUOTE = The falcon can outhandle it, out perform it and drinks no more fuel, while being RWD and heavier, did i mention it can tow better too? All subjective?
Outhandle maybe…. outperform no and it does drink alittle more fuel. What your saying is subjective yes.
QUOTE = Take a look back through the Wheels car of the year on jan 03 when the BA won the award, take a read at some of the judges comments in relation to the way the BA falcon steered and rode against the Merc E-class…
Yes and wheels is the best source for info on how cars perform.
QUOTE = Yes an R32 sounds and performs great, for the money it would want too, bit it’s a far cry from a standard V6 corporate engine.
For the money? You make it sound like its ordinary, its $55k for what you get (the features and performance) its a great deal.
QUOTE = Paul, yake a read of the latest goauto.com web site for an article of Ford’s actions…you need to read it.
Why? I know what has happened… instead of saying that tell me the difference between what Ive said (like how the V6 is a good decision as they will save on costs etc) and what this article says.
QUOTE = by the way Paul do you actually get to drive any of the cars your commenting on? I do…
Of course I havent driven every car that I talk about, but I think my knowledge is prity decent… I have got it through reading alot of material online and offline, road testing cars (maybe alittle sad given I didnt intend to buy them lol), driving a number of cars from family and friends and being driven in many other cars from family and friends. Im no less informed then most people around here.
Now you answer me this, what makes you come to ask this question? Because I state the R32 has a nice sound? Head along to youtube and you will quickly realise that. Or is it because I talked about the Toyota engine which had sludge problems which I happen to own? Or maybe its because I talk about the Aurion which I have test driven and know people who own them? Most of our arugments have been about the Aurion which I have test driven (and I doubt you have) or other issues which aernt even related to having driven cars such as the sludge issues with Toyota or whether certain comments are subjective or not. This is the second time you’ve had a go at my credibility, I already proved you wrong in regards to the design of the Aurion when you stated “Aurion V6 is not made here and the Aurion is not developed or designed here!” when it was designed by an Australian which is good enough and Im not the one who is yet to show me evidence that Toyota makes only 1/3 the profit of Ford Australia despite having at least 3 vehciles in the top 3 sales in Australia while Ford have NONE (So the jury is still out on this one and Im happy to be proven wrong).
Im eagerly awaiting a response.
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July 23rd, 2007 at 10:13 pm
people dont get carried away,
did i miss the bit where 600 people get sacked?
Paul the aurion is not a new design anyway. it is just a poor mans lexus.
you also have no idea on the I6 either so you should quit on it before you bury yourself
I6 info……
the I6 has a huge difference in torque compared to the V6. go have a look. did you know that the ford I6 is known as having the most torque out of a 6cyl in the world and the most torque out of 6 or 8 in australia?
also the V6 twin turbo motor they consider to bring here still doesnt have the same amount of torque as the current single turbo I6 made right here.
now i know you didnt start this one but i think it is subjective to say the V6 is more refined than the I6 due to them getting the same fuel consumption while carrying more weight and sporting .5L more capacity
as for sound give me an I6 anyday. i reckon V6’s sound tinny. the I6 has an unmistakable sound especially when you give it some right from the heart.
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July 24th, 2007 at 7:50 am
Paul…
You claim Wheels mag is not a great source of motoring info? what is in your opinion, the same info on the net and other mags as you state you obtain your info from? Everybody has friends and relatives that has cars you can drive.
You own a toyota, explains a lot to me.
I work in the motor trade, i have worked for Ford and Holden. I have worked for a vehicle broker company.
You?
I have no doubt the R32 is a great sounding and performing engine…it is $55,000. Not an engine or price point you can compare to family sedan V6 engines costing $30,000.
The Aurion is smooth, so is the Mit 380 and falcon, but they sound different.
The falcon consumes no more fuel in the real world, and if it happens too, the difference wouldn’t be worth arguing about, just like Aurions Torque disadvantage compared to falcons inline 6, agreed?
you can’t bring up your own points and use the same method of argument then turn around and not let others use the same point of difference.
proved me wrong in regards to the design of Aurion?? what!? you even admitted you made a mistake on one of your comments, due to being a bit tired, remember?
The Aurions front and rear ends were restyled by an aussie in japan, the whole car was NOT designed by an aussie…got that yet?
As for profit figures…as i said last time, if your so up to date with auto information you would know this, remember your knowledge is pretty good according to you, who obtains his info from the net and other sources, thats were i got that info from too.
I’ll see if i can track it down for you…
You seem to be a blind Toyota buyer who will believe any infomation thats generated about Toyota thats not negative. marketing works a treat!
Just for kicks, what model toyota do you own? what other cars did u test drive before purchase? be honest.
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July 24th, 2007 at 9:01 am
Paul…I found some figures for you…and some from this site too! who would have thought?
Now i could only find a round up of profit vers loss for Holdena & Ford, funny thing is i couldn’t find any finacial results for toyota past 2 years…its like the information is protected. Now, i obvioulsy can’t prove this 100% at this point but for the past 5-6 years Holden and Ford has made more profit than loss compared to toyota AUS. Remember this is for Toyota Australia, not worldwide.
I keep seaching for you.
http://www.caradvice.com.au/32.....lion-loss/
http://www.caradvice.com.au/28.....lion-loss/
http://www.drive.com.au/Editor.....3&vf=1
http://www.smh.com.au/news/Bus.....12662.html
http://www.theage.com.au/news/.....42370.html
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July 24th, 2007 at 12:01 pm
Andrew.M…. aaaaaaaaargh
QUOTE = the I6 has a huge difference in torque compared to the V6. go have a look. did you know that the ford I6 is known as having the most torque out of a 6cyl in the world and the most torque out of 6 or 8 in australia?
For starers I do have an idea, nothing I have said is wrong really… Im aware they are more balanced and have more torque etc but V6s are now prity decent, they are cheaper to build, more compact and have lower emissions. You wanna argue these facts do so at your own risk. As for the torque issue, I said there is a difference, although I really cant say its huge as you claim, the Commodore which is 3.6L has 330Nm while the Falcon has I think 380Nm… so 50Nm HOWEVER we all know torque has a positive relationship with dissplacement. So Inlines having ‘HUGE’ differences in torque to V6s is somewhat SUBJECTIVE…. but Im not denying they tend to have more.
And as for your facts, here is one, did you know the Aurions V6 has the largest volume of air intake than any other 6 cylinder in the world? You could say its related to an efficient intake system pre-intake manifold but I think it also has something to do with it being V6. Such breathing helps produce power… thats why the Aurion despite having a significantly lower dissplacement can comfortably produce 10kw more then the current Falcon (translates into a bigger difference at the wheels as RWD’s lose more through the drivetrain). And I know you will go on about torque this and torque that, but power is still relevant.
QUOTE = now i know you didnt start this one but i think it is subjective to say the V6 is more refined than the I6 due to them getting the same fuel consumption while carrying more weight and sporting .5L more capacity
as for sound give me an I6 anyday. i reckon V6’s sound tinny. the I6 has an unmistakable sound especially when you give it some right from the heart
Well I didnt mean to say more refined then other and get into that… the point I was making is that any difference that may exist is neglible. As for sound, each unto their own… but I dont see say the Buggatti Veyron or any other supercar for that matter strapping two I6’s together? Lol and I know its a size issue, but Im sure if there was a will there would have been a way.
QUOTE = You claim Wheels mag is not a great source of motoring info? what is in your opinion, the same info on the net and other mags as you state you obtain your info from? Everybody has friends and relatives that has cars you can drive.
You own a toyota, explains a lot to me.
I use various sources to get a better picture, when you have many other sources contradicting wheels like the Aurion fuel consumption argument against the Commodore etc you tend to think that source isnt very credible. As for relatives, yes Im not the one disputing your knowledge, so congrats you drive other cars… I was just stating that Im hardly someone who hasnt driven many cars. As for Toyota, well when your a uni graduate and have a debt to pay and earning jack all Im sure you would be able to afford a R32 or whatever. At this stage in my life I need reliability which Toyota offers… but the Toyota V6 in its defence is hardly an under performer, in years gone by (as we see now with the Aurion) it was in fact a far superior engine to its comeptiton, for example the Gen3 had 800Ml less dissplacement then a Commodore yet only 10kw less (obviously less torque).
QUOTE = I work in the motor trade, i have worked for Ford and Holden. I have worked for a vehicle broker company.
You?
Oh k so no-one else is entitled to their opinion… espcially when its about trivial things like the characterists of an I6, the Aurion, whats subjective etc. Mate your turning into abit of a joke with this credibility thing. Im sure people with far more experience then you have said things which are wrong, so your experience is hardly something that makes you the be all and end all for car knowledge. If anything it shows you may have bias (given you worked for Ford and Holden) which isnt something that is contructive.
QUOTE = I have no doubt the R32 is a great sounding and performing engine…it is $55,000. Not an engine or price point you can compare to family sedan V6 engines costing $30,000.
That wasnt my friggin point, I was comparing it to them… I was defending V6s in general. When someone says they sound like shyte and then you have the best sounding car under $100k which is V6 (not mentioning all the great cars over that much which like 90% are in the V-Formation) then Im going to mention that aernt I!?
QUOTE = The falcon consumes no more fuel in the real world, and if it happens too, the difference wouldn’t be worth arguing about, just like Aurions Torque disadvantage compared to falcons inline 6, agreed?
Not 100%… the torque difference does mean the Falcon has better pulling power, but to the extent that it doesnt negatively effect your driving (ie struggles so much under load its ridiculous) I agree.
QUOTE = proved me wrong in regards to the design of Aurion?? what!? you even admitted you made a mistake on one of your comments, due to being a bit tired, remember?
The Aurions front and rear ends were restyled by an aussie in japan, the whole car was NOT designed by an aussie…got that yet?
I mentioned how I used the word ‘built’ instead of ‘developed’ as being wrong, NOT that you werent wrong in your initial post. Sure you didnt say ‘by an Aussie’ rathter ‘in Australia’, but your point in that post was to show how un-Australian the Aurion is when in fact an Aussie was involved in the design process. As for front and back redesigned, yes I already knew that obviously… the centre section is from the Camry afterall….
QUOTE = As for profit figures…as i said last time, if your so up to date with auto information you would know this, remember your knowledge is pretty good according to you, who obtains his info from the net and other sources, thats were i got that info from too.
I’ll see if i can track it down for you…
Lol I never really say I have a great deal of knowledge. But Im hardly uninformed, that is my point. And I hope you do track it down as I still find it hard to believe, as said, 3 or so cars in the top 5 of sales in Australia while no Fords are… sure there are explanations why those sales dont translate into profits, but I would imagine the difference is so great that they should still have a better profit than Ford or at least not 1/3!
QUOTE = You seem to be a blind Toyota buyer who will believe any infomation thats generated about Toyota thats not negative. marketing works a treat!
Just for kicks, what model toyota do you own? what other cars did u test drive before purchase? be honest.
Lol give me an example of my blindness as a result of marketing? If your referring to the sludge issue then your wrong, I already said Toyota was hesistant at the start to fix the issue… but in the end did the right thing. Cant think of any more examples… And again with the credibility. I already said I have test driven many vehicles (the same kinda thing that gives motor mag authors etc the knowledge to comment on them) and driven many other family and friend vehicles. So what I went up against isnt that relevant. But for your info anyway I already said I have the 1MZ-FE, so if your that knowledgable you should know that means its from like 1996 or so onwards. I own a Gen4 (1999) Vienta (ie upper spec Camry), bought used, hardly anything special. Cars I tried were obviouly similar, test drove all the cars around the same age : Sonata, you could say Falcon (family owned one), Magna (Test drove dealer one and family owned one) and didnt test drive but have driven it since but also the Commodore of that same period (which Im glad I didnt buy as its a POS). Also before I decide on a family car for certain reasons I also test drove smaller cars; Lancer (Have driven one a coupla time since), Suzuki Baleno (Family bought one since), Elantra… again all of the same era. Now this has to do with our previous arguments what? Because I own a Camry I cant comment on other cars despite having driven many and reading a hell of alot more on them…. I really dont see where this is going.
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July 24th, 2007 at 12:28 pm
Paul…
1.The reality is Aurion consumes as much fuel as a falcon, remember Aurion is FWD and it;s lighter. It’s not like toyota makes a RWD class car to go head to head with falcon and commodore directly, so falcon and commodore are actually quite efficient when all things are considered.
2. I worked for ford and holden, not due to bias…most people who work in the car trade actually are less biased than consumers and couldn’t give a toss about motor vehicles in general, sales training teaches you to build one brand up over another, theres a difference. the broker company i worked for sold all different makes and models, you couldn’t be biased otherwise you could lose a sale! i now work for a company that deals with all brands.
3. You can have your opinion, i fail to see where your opinion is left as that though, you sprout off as if it’s fact. I drive all late model and new vehicles, not old models.
3. you claimed you proved me WRONG with the Aurion being australian designed and developed. hence my reply back.
4. profit figures are correct, i don’t care if you believe me or not, how about you try and prove me wrong, as your only proof is that Toyota is market leader so it should be more profitable!? selling more volume does not always equal more profit!! GM was the top seeling atomotive brand for 74 years, and yet it was not always the most profitable…
4. I understand why you bought a Toyota…would you believe that in america Fords latest models are actually matching and beating some Toyota models for consumer satisfaction and quality!
Sorry perception is the biggest hurdle, most other brands have caught up with toyotas reliability.
i have never actually owned a toyota, yet i have never had any issues with cars ive personally owned, does that prove anything? no, not all all.
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July 24th, 2007 at 12:32 pm
At the end of the day, they are all the same, with positives and nagatives…
Personal chocie plays a big part.
One thing i cant understand though, i have never bough a Toyota for one main reason…style and handling dynamics….
why the hell would you buy a corolla, which even with the brand new model just released, can’t outhandle or outperform the mazda 3, it even drinks more fuel!
And reliability is the same, oh and by the way toyota has top selling models, but very rarely do they have class leading vehicles…thats a fact also.
No bias involved!
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July 24th, 2007 at 1:05 pm
QUOTE = 4. profit figures are correct, i don’t care if you believe me or not, how about you try and prove me wrong, as your only proof is that Toyota is market leader so it should be more profitable!? selling more volume does not always equal more profit!! GM was the top seeling atomotive brand for 74 years, and yet it was not always the most profitable…
Im aware more sales doesnt always mean more profit, I did already say that.
Now to prove you wrong Adam, your going off old profit results, how about CURRENT results where Toyotas profits more reflect their real results (tax adjustments have occured etc).
Toyotas profits:
“Toyota Net profit for the period rose to $184.3 million, from $54.5 million the previous year.”
http://www.industrysearch.com......rket-27127
Ford profits:
“Ford swung to a NET LOSS of A$40.3 million for its 2006 fiscal year, from a net profit of A$148.2 million in 2005.”
http://www.autonews.com/apps/p.....feed=rss02
FURTHERMORE as I said Toyota gets more sales, here is a quote from the above article about market shares:
“Total Australian car sales topped a record 1 million units in the year to June, according to industry figures, with FORDS MARKET SHARE of 10.4 percent lagging TOYOTA’S 22.2 percent and General Motors unit Holden’s 14.5 percent.”
In your defence Im sure Fords profits have gone down due to development costs, its a cycle you see among car manufacturers… but I have proven you WRONG. So much for industry experience…
———————
People buy it for reliability… it may be a perception or it could be the truth (surveys of satisfaction cant always be relied upon as stats can be manipulated). Im sure people also consider that the Corolla has been around for ages now and been reliable for most of that while the Mazda3 in terms of reliability is a new comer. Same applies to the Camry.
As for class leading, well I think it can be subjective, I honestly think the Aurion currently is the class leader. The current falcon isnt as it lacks safety features (to be corrected with the new model), the Commodore lacks a decent range with a base model having a 4 speed tranny and also a lack of standard safety features and the 380 again lacks safety features and has he least powerful engine in the class. And even with the Camry and Corolla they might not be class leaders but they are at the top of their markets.
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July 24th, 2007 at 1:10 pm
^
Im still looking for results that are more comparative, but given the increase in Toyotas profits its not going to be 1/3 like in previous years where Ford was making a $150mil profit and Toyota only $50mil
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July 24th, 2007 at 1:37 pm
The point was that toyota AUS has been less profitable than both Ford and Holden for at least the past 6 years.
Thats with Ford exporting fewer than 8000 falcons a year! while toyota would be completely unprofitable if it wasn’t for 60,000 units they export every year.
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July 24th, 2007 at 1:58 pm
Everything is subjective to you! So when auto information supports your opinion, your happy to use it, otherwise if it goes against your well founded opinion, it’s ’sunjective’ come off it!
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July 24th, 2007 at 2:01 pm
paul…
add up the profit for the last 6 or even 10 years and you will see ford and Holden wip toyotas butt!
ford and Holden have remained more profitable, while making and developing models here with less exports consistentley with less market share!
do you understand yet?
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July 24th, 2007 at 2:55 pm
Well I will go off CURRENT trends not digging up old info… fact is Toyota in recent history has been doing well. At the end of the day they have a larger market share then both Ford and Holden and are now making large profits as they reap the success of the Camry, Aurion and Corolla to name a few. Ford and Holden on the other hand are struggling and thats even with government hands outs which I read somewhere totalled like 600 million!!! As a taxpayer as well I am concerned at this given that a recent handout to Ford was to develop the I6 so it would meet newer emissions standards yet they now scrap the I6. Can we have our money back then to?
QUOTE = Everything is subjective to you! So when auto information supports your opinion, your happy to use it, otherwise if it goes against your well founded opinion, it’s ’sunjective’ come off it!
Well yes…. most things I say are subjective. Everyone has some form of bias but Im just highlighting extreme cases… please tell me with a straight face that post by I think it was ‘Sam’ about the torque, sound and refinement is 100% accurate!?!?
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July 24th, 2007 at 3:55 pm
LOL
Paul…
current trends? it was only in the last finacial year Ford AUS lost 40 million, Holden the last 2.
It has only been in the last 2 years toyota AUS has been able to pull any profit.
Also take into account the level of loss vers profit, there is a huge difference for Toyota.
do i have to mention to you 2 major things…
1. Ford and Holden invest much more than toyota in local product development. Ford not only does RWD, it s doing a new truck platform to service the world, along with the engineering work on the Indian market fiesta, same goes for Holden. Was it Ford who actually developed the territory, not just another ‘import’ from the Ford world.
toyota AUS holds no major responsibility for its parent company.
I guess you call the avalon a success too!?
2. ALL local assemblers receive goverment handouts and concessions, yes Toyota too and they actually spend their own money before the concessions are handed out.
One last thing, where is Toyotas affordable RWD platform??
I agree Sam might be a little optimistic…please point out where my extreme bias exists?
I could also put FrugalOne in the same boat.
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July 24th, 2007 at 4:05 pm
Lol I know Toyota get handouts for things like building here but Ford and Holden get ALOT more… for development etc which are significant.
As for affordable RWD… Lexus, at around $60k or so thats affordable. For everyone else, FWD (Also doesn the Hilux or whatever come in RWD?). And I dont know how this is an issues, again much like I6 vs V6 have various adv and disadv same applies to FWD and RWD.
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July 24th, 2007 at 4:36 pm
How much more Paul?
NO, not Lexus and i knew you would try that one! $30,000 range like a falcon or commdore, Hilux!? yr kidding right? unless we were comparing a ford courier! or holden rodeo. Come on admit there is no RWD Toyota for $30,000.
You call $60,000 affordable for the average punter? oh, thats right i see lexus sells as many as Ford, Holden and Toyota per month!
No, it’s not like the V6 debate, RWD is different to FWD…rear wheel drive and front wheel drive.
I’m talking a class of car, V6s can come in all shapes and sizes. In reality the RWD class is different to FWD.
Would that be why Lexus is RWD and not just using the camry/aurion FWD platform that Lexus once used in some of there model ranges…it appears to compete with BMW, MERC they had to configure RWD!
If you want to get technical…
Aurion is not all that efficient compared to a falcon or commodore, due to its FWD which is lighter than RWD.
take the new camry 4cyl…it drinks as much as the bigger cars…why on earth would you buy one over the aurion!? The packaging is not good at all.
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July 24th, 2007 at 5:53 pm
paul what i am doing with the I6 comments is trying to defend it from the ill informed people like yourself.
THE I6 IS NOT OUT DATED
the real reason the I6 is going is because ford want to create a global engine they can mass produce and the I6 is not as easily suited to the type of vehicles they would need to use it in due to its height.
emissions prob wouldnt be an issue if they put an alloy block on it just like the V6.
i fail to see many advantages of the V6 apart from the global stragegy ford are implementing
can you name any?
FACT: the ford I6 is as efficient as the toyota V6 even after you add kgs and more capacity.
FACT: the I6 generates quite a bit more torque and i bet if it were the V6 with more torque you would sprook up even 20nm. you have obviously never towed or carried weight before.
also where you say V6’s are more compact i would have to say the opposite based on my observations. the V6 maybe shorter but the V6 has more spread. and seeing that you dont put components ontop of the motor i dont see what the advantage of being shorter would be.
also to comment on the profit and handouts stuff….
I agree with adam in that you can not judge profit V loss over a single year. these things have to be judged over a period as adam suggests eg 6 years. the reason you cant is cause this years toyota report wont reflect any development costs as that was covered over the previous reports, and you definatly cant compare this years ford report to it cause guess what…. they are reflecting the part of the cycle that does show development costs at the moment. you obviously arent doing a business degree at uni right now.
and last one on the handouts…. yes toyota do get them too im not going looking for exact figures now but it would make sence that toyota get less for development etc since they well dont do a lot of that here compared to holden and even more ford.
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July 24th, 2007 at 6:46 pm
Adam…
1. Ive had the FWD vs RWD argument to many times to get into it again. When your looking for a family car for most people its totally irrelevant, unless you are towing something huge FWD or RWD it doesnt matter.
2. Lexus etc go with RWD not because its superior but because they are more enjoyable to drive… when you have people forking over alot of money you give them what they want, which is RWD because of soceities perceptions
3. I agree the Camry is prity crap, I dont know why people buy them… for example Camry Sportivo is the same price as Aurion ATX! But overall FWD is a more efficient systems, its fact they lose less through the drivetrain and weigh less… which means better fuel consumption not to mention faster acceleration with a given engine and also a higher traction threshold as the weight of the engine is over the drive wheels.
Andrew.M…
1. I dont know what the hell your whinging about. All I have MAINLY been saying is that the V6 doesnt lose much if anything over the I6. For Ford the strategy is to reduce costs which Ive already mentioned; through a cheaper engine to build in the V6, through consolidating the design and development of the engine and finally through economies of scale (instead of building 70,000 inlines in Aus build that many V6s in a production line already building 1,000,000 and each unit gets built for less).
2. Your facts are nice but wrong. Ive proven to you that in terms of torque the difference isnt massive, Ive proven this, no need to talk anymore about it. In terms of size, it is fact they are a more compact unit… this is just stupid honestly to be trying to argue it, its why they dont use it in FWDs or they dont use it in supercars when strapping two of them together… because of size restrains of a inline 6. Its just common sense, one row of 6 cylinders as opposed to 2 rows of 3 cylinders. Lol have you ever seen a V6 before?
3. Toyota recorded a bigger profit then Ford has for a while. Now you mention development and associated costs… what has come out this year? Camry, Aurion, Corolla. If anything its only going to be a bigger nextt year while Ford are obviously aware of the exact opposite conditions because their cutting workers. On top of all this previous profits have been helped significanlty by govt grants, dont quote me but I remember reading that the year they made $150mil profit while Toyota only made $50mil… they had got a grant of like $70mil. So lets go to our respective manufacteres and as for their books, eliminate grants, consider tax issues such as how Toyota had a significant sum of money disputed in the year they only made $50mil profit etc… and then see who has been going better. On top of this the fact that Toyota now has the biggest market share, to be precise it is OVER DOUBLE the market share Ford has, and you try to tell me with a straight face they will have more profits next year! Fair enough the Orion comes out, but double the market share is a huge gap.
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July 24th, 2007 at 7:31 pm
1. Paul i am not whinging, i am (as i stated) defending the I6 from the critisism you gave it in suggesting the I6 was over the hill. i am simply saying (not whinging) that the I6 is still easily competitive and in some parts it has an advantage over the V6.
2.ok i still havent seen you prove the torque thing yet. do you know what torque is? im starting to think not. i ask my question again have you ever towed or carried weight? also im thinking not thats why i say you dont know what torque is.
what i was saying about size (as i said) was based on my observations and sorry i forget the feeler guage everytime i look at something. ok now i will get a tape measure next time i pop the bonnet of a “V” motor and i mean really. i will post the measures i find on here. hey better still for my interest can you pop the hood of your camry and measure the width of your camry donk and let us know and i will do the same with my inline. what i stated earlier was i reckon the V6 looks wider than the I6 and once we both measure im sure it will solve it. either way it doesnt matter but i would be surprised if the I6 comes out wider.
oh yeah how come they dont use the “V” configuration on those rice burners that sport eastwest motors? those are the ones with real space restraints.
3. gee paul whooo up when did i predict future profits?? thats right toyota have released new models already meaning their development costs were not this year but in the previous ones. so little expenditure now cause that was paid for like 2 yrs ago as for ford not releasing something yet that proves my point further. the money is spent before they make it meaning mostly now and last year for ford and 12mths+ before now for toyota. get it?
also read articles on the ford cutting “POSITIONS”. they will actually create more from this restructure they are doing. and noone has been cut.
ok also what was toyotas grant in comparison?
also stop talking about now. you cant talk about one year in terms of business. like adam says it is considered over a trend of like 6-8 years (usually 2 cycles in car business)
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July 24th, 2007 at 7:35 pm
also a quick ponder on what you said, does any profit from the corolla go to toyota OZ? (apart from what the dealerships make on mark up etc of course)
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July 25th, 2007 at 7:51 am
[quote]Adam…
1. Ive had the FWD vs RWD argument to many times to get into it again. When your looking for a family car for most people its totally irrelevant, unless you are towing something huge FWD or RWD it doesnt matter.
2. Lexus etc go with RWD not because its superior but because they are more enjoyable to drive… when you have people forking over alot of money you give them what they want, which is RWD because of soceities perceptions
3. I agree the Camry is prity crap, I dont know why people buy them… for example Camry Sportivo is the same price as Aurion ATX! But overall FWD is a more efficient systems, its fact they lose less through the drivetrain and weigh less… which means better fuel consumption not to mention faster acceleration with a given engine and also a higher traction threshold as the weight of the engine is over the drive wheels.[quote]
Paul…
1. My point is that from an engineering perpective RWD is a different set up to FWD, ok? So everyone talks about efficiency, yet the lighter FWD aurion can’t beat a heavier RWD falcon or commodore for fuel efficiency. Funny thing is falcon and commodore were always refered to as gas guzzlers, i take it now aurion can be called a gas guzzler too? it certainly isn’t an efficient FWD vehicle, but a side step alternative to bigger RWD vehicles perhaps?
2. take a read of your number 2 point, you contradicted yourself. RWD is used in the luxury car segment as RWDcan be tuned better for handling dynamics, hence like you said driving enjoyment. Not just ’societies perceptions’! lexus also had to swicth to RWD as BMW and MERC are RWD.
You never did answer my value question in relation to a Lexus costing $60,000 and that being easy to afford for most average punters…oh thats right Toyota doesn’t make an affordabel RWD vehicle! when they do i wonder if they could package one as well as a falcon or commodore? i guess we will never know…
3. toyota simply stuffed the latest camry up, i agree a 4 cyl FWD should be more economical, but the new camry isn’t…i’d be buying the aurion over the camry any day, just goes to show you the thick heads who go out and buy a camry without a 2nd thought, thinking there getting an efficient 4cyl car! We give the general public way too much credit…
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July 25th, 2007 at 7:53 am
i forgot to ask you again…how much more grant money does Ford and Holden receive over Toyota??
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July 25th, 2007 at 11:42 am
Andrew.M….
I didnt say it was over the hill, summed up I have said (or meant to have portrayed) that the adv of V6 (cheaper costs, comparable performanace) outweigh any disadv (less torque, not as balanced). As for torque, nah I dont know what it is, thats a button on your radio right? Fark me mate, I did give you evidence, Commodore v Falcon, a difference of what like 50Nm out of an engine which has nearly half a litres more displacement! Lets do torque to displacement ratio for some insight:
I6 Falcon : 95Nm per L
V6 Commodore : 92Nm per L (94Nm per L for SV6)
So you care to tell me again there is a massive difference? We all know torque is related to disiplacement, if the Falcon has so much of a advantage being inline we should see a better torque to displacement ratio. We dont. Finally admit defeat? I doubt it. And Im not measuring my engine, as it would be difficult anyway to get an accurate reading. You cant just measure the maximum dimensions, as where the heads of the engine are its wider for a V6 (still shorter though), once you get down to the block its SUBSTANTIALLY SMALLER on top of that. So overall its smaller. Go research it, this is just common sense. Lastly in terms of profit true maybe some of it development costs of new models were spent previously, I did mention originally its all difficult to compare as the manufacturers run by a cycle of development and then reaping the benefits. But Toyotas profits currently are higher then what Ford Aus have got in a while I believe, so they are on top. Their market share is also higher then its ever been, so I would expect them to have higher profits if you were to compare both companies during the period where they are selling a new model.
Adam…
1. It is more efficienct, I said previously the difference can be neglible in the real world but if you were to impossibly test a Falcon and a Aurion in the exact same conditions… meaning same pedal depressions etc and same roads… the Aurion would return better results. And why do we even argue this it is FACT they are more efficient. Here is a quote from of all sources wikipedia lol (its from another more credible site though) about FWD adv:
“Improved drivetrain efficiency: the direct connection between engine and transaxle reduce the mass and mechanical inertia of the drivetrain compared to a rear-wheel drive vehicle with a similar engine and transmission, allowing greater fuel economy. ”
2. I didnt contradict myself… enjoyment and handling are two different things. A AWD is arguably less enjoyable in terms of reckless behaviour yet smashes a RWD or FWD around a track. And I didnt talk about your affordable RWD as I alreaday said, who cares, FWD is better for driving on the streets.
3. Well I guess people buy the Camry because the lower models are cheaper then the Aurion… and they dont care about all those other issues, they know they are reliable based on history. In saying this, its mainly uninformed older people buying them or fleets. The Aurion is the way to go.
As for grant money I dont know, enlighten me? I know its less then Ford and Holden though who have got 600 million recently… Toyota gets some for building in Australia etc but the others get it for bullshyte like developing new technologies like hybrids or the I6 meeting emmissions standards. The hybrids in particular is annoying, Ford on an international level would be doing it… why the hell does the minow Ford Aus do it!!!
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July 25th, 2007 at 1:07 pm
paul…
1. i never said FWD was less efficient than a RWD setup, i’m saying the aurions efficiency is not any better than a RWD falcon or commodore, which it’s NOT!
I know the techincal terms, no need to bring them up in order for you try and win this debate. In the REAL world the Aurion drinks the same amount of fuel as the falcon and commodore, so would you say it guzzles fuel? The falcons inline 6 cyl engine is TECHNICALLY less advanced than the Holdens 3.6 HF V6, yet beats it in operation, execution is everything, not always what you start with…FWD is technically more efficient, yet in the REAL world has no decernable benefit over the RWD falcon and commodore.
Another example…toyota uses strut front suspension, just like BMW uses on some models, yet who can tune the struts to perform like there is no commonality between the two??
Understand the point yet?
2. RWD can be fined tuned over FWD for everyday driving dynamics, an Aurion or any toyota for that matter has inferior dynamics to most other vehicles in their respective classes. The new corolla can’t even beat a 3 year old mazda 3, or an astra, or a Golf for handling, hang on they can beat a kia, hyundai, sorry!
FWD is a huge benefit in snowy conditions. Drive a BF11, a VE and aurion and tell me which is nicer, easier and FUN to drive…you might learn something there…
3. What you have just said proves my thoughts in relation to general Toyota buyers…not all of us want white goods on wheels;)
Most other makes and models are just as reliable, but bring a little more excitment and emotion in everyday motoring.
Toyota is safe in some peoples mind, doesn’t make them better…you need to think outside the box a little and realise not everything is black and white.
You claimed the grant money is more for Ford and Holden, prove it.
Your last few sentences make no logical sense to me…
if i understand it right, i would respond with, why does Toyota get it, everything they do in AUS they do internationally!?
Also, falcons torque level is the highest, but the killer is the rev range at which the torque arrives…
383nm@2,500, no other engine has the low kick in of torque…
I find it amusing that you basically agree how profit figures can be obscured in the auto sector…but then go on and on about Toyota having profit this last finacial year, if one bloody year counted, Toyota AUS wouldn’t be here NOW! your wrong about the profit, admit it, get over it, your WRONG!
Your splitting hairs, my original statement was Toyota has made less profit than Ford and Holden over the last 5 years, regardless of whos market leader or not.
OK?
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July 25th, 2007 at 2:49 pm
Adam there are a million things I could talk about from your last post, I get the feeling we are just going to keep going around in circles. So Im gonna do the right thing and end it. Although I would still like to here from Andrew.M about this hige difference in torque still.
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July 25th, 2007 at 3:09 pm
fair enough…One point though. Toyota worldwide is cash rich…why can’t they…
Build class leading vehicles, with distinctive style?
mazda and Honda can, yet are small in comparison.
It’s taken toyota AUS 30 years to build a competitive vehicle against falcon and commodore.
I recall Toyotas Aussie boss back in 1992 saying the then new wide body camry would steal the sales crown away from falcon and commodore…then i realised how arrogant Toyota AUS could be when it came to what Aussies wanted in a full sized vehicle, ever wonder why commodore and falcon have remained with RWD unique platforms for so long? It would had been easier for Ford and Holden to switch to a common, corporate FWD platform, but they didn’t. Much like what everyother manufacturer selling cars here today does.
If fuel prices remained low and didn’t shoot through the roof, our car market wouldn’t have changed all that much compared to how it’s drastically altered in the last 2 years.
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July 25th, 2007 at 3:12 pm
thats not to mention Toyota AUS offers, no affordable V8s, utes, wagons. the expensive Lexus excluded for V8s.
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July 25th, 2007 at 6:09 pm
Adam stop temptin me, just quickly:
1. The widebody camry was decent, but back then people were still against the Jap brands. The engine in the original Gen3 was decent, 140kw and 260Nm from 2500rpm… better then the Commodore and just off the Falcon. Sure it wasnt quite as big but it offered decent room and styling wise imo they were all ugly back then. So I dont think it was all arrogance on Toyotas part. Now though Toyota is slowly changing; the Aurion, Corolla and Camry are very distinctive and I think their recent profit success has come off the back of this… finally buyers get the reliablity etc of a Toyota engine with the decent looks they always wanted.
2. Toyota Aus offers a larger range of passenger and commercial vehicles then Holden by a country mile and than Ford. In abit more detail:
V8s - Well the AVERAGE price of the local V8s isnt to far off the Lexus 8’s
Utes - Ummm Hilux, by far the best in its class
Wagons - Use to offer the Camry in wagon form, obviously sales told them it was pointless having them in their range as Ford and Holden are dominant in this deparment.
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July 26th, 2007 at 7:39 am
More temptation?…
1. My point was it’s taken Toyota very long to even come close, why? because they persisted with FWD.
Hence why commodore and falcon remained RWD and have had unique platforms.
The camry finally has more attractive styling, while the Aurion is a half hearted atempt at changing a camry into a lardge car.
Corolla…distinctive!? ok. Toyota AUS profits come of the back of exports otherwise altona would be in the red. This would indicate that Ford has been running very lean and efficiently comapred to both Holden Toyota with miniscule exports.
2. A bigger range does not = equal a better choice or better cars. The average price of local V8s is most certianly far distance from the Lexus V8s…
The cheapest V8 lexus i could find starts from $123,000 while the cheapest Ford V8 starts from $44,990, a difference of $78,000, in your honest opinion, is this difference ‘not far off’??
hilux…is the best in class, not by a country mile though…as the hilux is the most expensive, so it would want to be! price also comes into the equation of a vehicles overall abilities.
I didn’t know you could buy camry/aurion ute!? falcon and commodore make safer, more comfortable car based utes than Toyotas Hilux.
Toyota AUS does not offer a wagon in camry or corolla due to the fact they take corporate platforms and don’t have the flexibility to build there own like Ford and Holden…
Ford and Holden are dominant with wagons…just like they hold the majority of the large car class, why?
fuel prices are the biggest factor for large sedans falling in sales, not Toyotas so called efficiency, reliability or reading the market right.
Next…
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July 26th, 2007 at 7:42 pm
well where do i start??
1. well if you look at what i said you will see i said the I6 would be NOT AS WIDE as the V6.
my I6 4.0L is 210mm wide (take off headers of course). so unless you can tell me your V6 is 209mm wide I am right. i know v6’s narrow at the bottom but i still think it would struggle to beat that, they dont narrow to nothing. i said the main dimension change was in height, so how does it give you more space when nothing is fitted on top or below the motor when you reduce the height? hey im not saying V6’s arent easier to package, i dont know that i dont pack them for a living and im sure you dont either, but i have said dimensional measures would certainly be smaller
2. how do you sum up the I6 is less balanced? just curious. i mean when compared to the commy (cause thats what falcon always gets compared to and vice versa) people say the I6 is much more balanced and smoother.
3. since when was “comparible” performance considered an advantage to V6. doesnt that mean they cancel themselves out as it could also be an advantage in the I6 score board. comparible means no advantage to either side. gee you are really digging there.
4. ok you cant buy an engine by the Litre. i see what you are trying to do though. you are the master of manipulating facts ill give you that. you must be studying to be a politition.
for 1 you math was wrong. i see you rounded down the falcon yet rounded up the commy.
ok to satisfy you you must times 96nm x3.6L for the ford to get a true comparison with the commy (not break it down like you did) otherwise you could say…
9.6nm per .1L Ford
9.2nm per .1L Holden
now that would be just as silly and you can see it illustrates nothing
now back on track……….
so you could say a 3.6L ford would be….
3.6L ford = 346nm
3.6L holden = 330nm (thats how you do the comparo you tried to do)
but i say since the ford has the extra .4L and uses no more fuel i.e. is more efficient, then it can count.
dont pull the sv6 into it as that competes with the XR6 turbo.
in summary the difference is still 53nm cause it is.
and if you doubt 53nm isnt much or doesnt mean any thing then you cement my opinion that you dont know what torque is.
i will also re-frase
have you ever felt the torque difference in vehicles before?
oh yeah as adam said the key with the falcon is also the very low range where it is all on tap. the F6 is a great show of that with 550nm all from 2000rpm
5. the profit thing. ok you are now admitting that you have to judge profit over a period of time. so why are you hung up on the “now”?? toyota is in their “cream” part of the cycle whilst ford is in the “labour” part of the cycle. so you must take the average of the last 6-7 years to ensure figures arent falsefyed. in summary what adam reflects with the figures is right.
so are you saying you would buy a business based on 1 years of figures? (dont get cut im not trying to say toyota are going down the drain)
6. correction….. used on roads at low speeds there is, well, NO difference. you cant say the FWD is better at these conditions especially when you had said previously that there is no difference.
1 main reason i believe RWD has better connection to the road is not because of opinionated road tests but also tyre wear. we all know tyre wear is indicative of grip levels, and well rears on a FWD dont wear.
also you state greater fuel efficiency from FWD, so where is it? hey ill talk your language he he he…..
toyota 3.5L =2.83L per 100k’s per Litre
Ford 4.0L =2.55L per 100K’s per Litre
so where is this greater efficiency?? he he he
hey did i say thats the way you prove the world too?
gee id hate to see a RWD toyota fuel figures then.
7.grant money,
well dont ford and holden develop a lot more in australia? YES
so isnt it fair they get more? YES
would you think it would be fair to give asians coming here on holiday or work visa etc the pension or whatever? NO
I too am waiting to hear to grant toyota gets
8.hybrids and enviro friendly stuff……
mate ford AUS are doing it, they are developing a hydrogen car and they also have a gas model falcon hello!!! the only car here produced on gas.
what does toyota have especially toyota AUS.
and on the prius (the car toyota fooled people with cause they are now figuring out it wasnt all it was cracked up to be) lets have a look at your style figures on this one…….
prius 1.5L = 70.7g of co2 per km
falcon petrol!! 4.0L = 60.7g of co2 per km
NOTE: sorry i get confused when you demonstrate how good toyota AUS is by using the corolla???
9. and yes toyota does offer a much larger range. maybe thats why they sell more too. ill let you do the comparo figures on “units sold divide by models”
toyota doesnot beat ford for sales in any category that ford AUS competes.
large car….ford beats toyota sales
SUV……….ford beats toyota sales
utes………ford beats toyota sales
10. utes brings me to the last one,
hilux is NOT by far the class leader. falcon ute ring a bell? i mean how do you make your judgement?
yep falcon gets hilux on sales
yep falcon is more powerfull than hilux
yep falcon handles better than hilux
yep falcon is more comfortable than hilux
yep falcon has more features than hilux
now ill be funny…. do you know what a ute is?
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July 27th, 2007 at 12:44 am
This is so crap, i want a aussie made car not inported american crap, i suppose that what you get when ford australia has a american for a boss…….
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July 28th, 2007 at 8:03 pm
Adam…
Well then your point is crap then mate. I said previously, the widebody for example was competitive, just as powerful etc… but when its in a market that back then was more resistant to foreign brands its going to be an uphill battle. We still see this resistance in the fleet market, not really in the private sales though. It had nothing to do with FWD. As for the Aurion being a half hearted attempt, well lol that half hearted attempt is currently at least (Orion may change things) the class leader!!!
I didn’t quite get the last big of your post… fuel is why the large car market is going down, not Toyotas reliability etc? Not sure if that makes any sense.
Andrew.M…
1. I already said Im not going to bother with this argument, as its just dumb… V6s are a more compact unit. Period.
2. Umm what now? I don’t think I ever said (or at least meant to say) an I6 was less balanced… that it ridiculous. The whole reason why they get more torque is because I6s are more balanced, but as I showed, the difference that may exist is negligible. And your example, yes the Commodore is a POS. You compare benchmark vs benchmark local engine wise, so Aurion v Falcon. Again backing up a negligible difference as the Aurions engine is a derivative of one which was like the top 10 engines of the year…. What about Fords I6?
3. Not sure what that’s about
4. Lol all your little workings are just proving what I already did mate. Breaking it down was just one way to show you how wrong you were…. You showed another away, of how wrong you are!! And your way of working it out is WRONG I think…. You wanna do it your way then its simply:
Commodore 3.6L = 330Nm
Falcon 3.6L = 342Nm ( (380/4) * 3.6 )
Even if we go off yours, 16Nm…. Is this a massive difference? Hardly. Then we consider the true difference of 12Nm, hardly any difference as well especially when you consider that tuning gets the SV6 to 340Nm so the difference is only 2Nm!!! Massive difference? Do you really wanna continue this stupidity?
5. Toyota had a dispute in regards to taxes I believe in recent years… this effected their profit figures. And as I also said Ford etc get larger govt handouts, 70million the year they made a 150million profit while Toyota only made 50million profit. You don’t think these handouts distort the true position of the company compared to its competitors!? A 80million profit turns into 150million.
6. What is your point that rears don’t wear as much? Is it that FWDs are cheaper… which is a good thing lol!!! Id understand where your coming from if FWDs had a tendency is oversteer because of a lack of rear grip, but this doesn’t happen, so what is your point exactly? In fact the lack of work of the rear is highlighted as a positive of