CarAdvice embarks on Aussie V8 showdown

Article
Gallery

By Paul Maric | April 20th, 2009

Key Dates:
Wednesday 22nd April, 11AM – Spingy Motors dyno testing.
Tuesday 28th April, 6AM onward – Economy drive to Tarcutta, first live feed at 6AM from South Yarra.

AMD versus Intel, Labor versus Liberal and AFL versus soccer – er that should be football, lifelong rivalries that rarely ever reach a conclusion. Passionate followers will never be swayed and future generations follow on with what their elders have taught them.

Well, with baited breath CarAdvice is stepping into the fight, putting Holden’s new Active Fuel Management (AFM) SS Commodore up against Ford’s BOSS XR8. The gloves will be removed in earnest to bring readers a duel worthy of boast.

CarAdvice will set out to see not only which vehicle is the most efficient in a long distance drive, we will also performance test the cars on both a rolling road dynomometer and with our VBox measurement equipment.

It WILL be the ultimate showdown.

The following diagram illustrates where we will drive. Unlike some other publications that go to the effort of taping gaps and folding mirrors during economy drives, we will simulate genuine driving conditions, just as average drivers would normally undertake.

In addition, you will be able to follow our journey via live Google Maps updates and four live video updates from South Yarra, Glenrowan, Tarcutta and Glenrowan again.

So, make sure you log on to CarAdvice on Wednesday 22nd April from 11AM Eastern Standard Time for some live video from our dyno day and again on Tuesday, 28th April from 6AM for the main event to see how we’re going on our economy drive.

In addition to the live video, you will be able to chat to us – live – as well! So if you have any questions that you must have answered right away, we’ll be on hand to answer them.

We have no idea how the results will pan out, we are genuinely very keen to see the results!

Brett

Look forward to it! But maybe disable the comments section of that article when you publish it, just to save your website from going into meltdown….
Gambler88

everytime there’s a duel between holden and ford, the comments section were always in meltdown. i’m expecting the same this time round, can’t wait til the results are publish. i always like reading the comments section, especially the personal attacks against each other ;p
HAL

CA, it might be a good start to the upcoming review if you make sure you have a picture of the SS rather than the SV6 above
Bavarian Missile (.)(.)

Gambler88 /The Fact/Star , heres a tip for you, if your going to continue to change your name on this site you need to change your writing style .We can spot you a mile away.Oh and usual you will be the one that will start the attacks.

On topic look forward to the test.So is it a marathon drive between 4 drivers or a 2 day trip between 2?

Economy hey,so I guess no racing boys
Ezz

AFL v Soccer? That’s an odd rivalry. One of them definitely can’t be compared to a V8.

League v Union maybe…Power and Strength v Power and Strength with some recent gains in agility.

Perhaps save the AFL v Soccer comparison for the Toyota Echo v Holden Barina shootout

****
Ezz

I should qualify the latter with the fact that alot more women like these two sports than say, League or Union which, like V8s, are a bloke’s domain. Same may be said for the cars I mentioned.

****
Duck

HAL, the picture is a SS! What are you talking about!?
HAL

Yep Duck, you are right. massive egg on my face…..
HAL

oh, and apologies CA.
adam (aka mada)

If this comparison doesn’t interest you why bother even making a comment? simple as that.
You do have a choice to read or not to read, believe it or not…

I look forward to the results, particuarly fuel consumption.
Blaze

Perhaps an economy contest on the way up to Sydney, and a race on the way back to Melbourne?!
Minnow

haha.. Your bad HAL
Minnow

This should be great, apparently ford has put some work into improving the v8′s fuel consumption. Have the cars done similar kilometers? (in regards to breaking in)
Mr Brooksy

Will be an interesting read… the article that is, not the rubbish comments damning V8′s to Hell, or whining because its not modern, or doesnt have a fake flower on the dashboard.
Pat E

Considering i have to sell the XR8 i will be very interested to see how they go. I have a customer that regularly buys Fords and Holdens, he has always thought the Ford product to have better consumption and torque, but the Holdens have handled better…
Shak

already 15 posts and the actual article hasnt evn started yet. Im actually going to be watching the comments instead of the article for free entertainment.
harmful81

Didnt we just have the Aussie v8 showdown on the weekend?? Correct me if im wrong but i believe the outcome was quite obvious there.
Gambler88

Bavarian Missile, i seriously don’t know what you’re going on about The Fact/Star are certainly not me. i think you got mixed up with our writing style….
Pious

I am not being critical, but what could be good is the economy run followeed up by thrashing them around a track – see which one is the best all rounder. Banging them on a dyno isnt really that helpful
Phill

This one will be a good read.Go The Blue Oval.
Old CarAdvice Reader

“…and AFL versus soccer”
I dispute to that, AFL versus NRL maybe.

I wonder how well the Falcon’s V8 will go against the new de-tuned V8 in the Commodore? I know the Holden’s V8 used to be a little faster than the XR8′s Boss 290, but I’m not too sure about this A.F.M. V8 update in the Commodore. Interesting to see what happens…
Andrew M

Minnow,
great question in that have they both done similar k’s prior to the test???
That is a big factor.
I reckon both models should have at least 10,000k’s on the clock to give a more accurate idea of what a prospective owner can expect

harmful81,
Yes the showdown did take place on the weekend.
How did it go again? I forget ha ha ha ha ha
Here’s a shout out to DJR…….top job
Bob

Guys, was the XR6 Turbo also considered in this test?

I think it would make a very very interesting competitor in both performance and fuel economy stakes, against the V8′s from both stables. It’s own brother in the XR8 and the AFM on the new SS.

Would be a very interesting review as nobody appears to have done this before – nonetheless I’m looking forward to this one.
Starky

AMD vs Intel – wow you guys are bigger nerds than me for bringing up rival processors in a car comparison. How bout ATI and Nvidia or Microsoft or Apple next time… nonetheless, bravo. I suppose this is why you are indeed a website and not a magazine (yet).
Should be good, but I agree with Bob in that the XR6 Turbo should be included. I’m expecting the SS to narrowly win, but with both cars having worse figures than given in ADR81 or whatever it’s called. Should also win in handling, which is why the lack of XR6T is strange.
Minnow

Andrew M, yeah thats what i meant. I would imagine the Falcon would take slightly longer to break in as the block is iron and the commodore being an alloy block. So the falcon might be relatively tight at around 10000k’s compared to the commodore.
Limited Slip

Minnow……….what difference does the iron block make to the engines running in? The Commode block is alloy but do you think the cylinders are alloy?? You are kidding arent you?
BK

Same old boring thing again with ford vs holden. Theres nothing special about this.
Troppa

BK – The Tida Vs Corolla Showdown is on drive.com
Escort_Ghia

Minnow it has nuthing to do with the ford having an iron block its the softwear in the ECU that ford used they do it to protect the engine and upgrade it at every service sorta like a flash tune thing.
Devil’s Advocate

“harmful81 Says:
April 20th, 2009 at 3:24 pm
Didnt we just have the Aussie v8 showdown on the weekend?? Correct me if im wrong but i believe the outcome was quite obvious there.”

In all fairness Harmful81, what happens in the V8 Supercars has no real relevence what-so-ever as they are SO FAR removed from the road cars it is not funny. For example, they even said during a telecast earlier this year that there is hardly a panel on the road car that would fit on the “FG” racer. I am also lead to believe that the “VE” racer is not much different in that department.

What would make this the ultimate test is having an XR6T and and SV6 along for the ride as well doing exactly the same thing. I know I wouldn’t be surprised if the V8s were just as good as the 6s on the open road, or at least very close. It will be interesting to see the results none the less and am SO looking forward to reading the comments. I know I will get a good laugh and a few head shakes/eye rolls!
Devil’s Advocate

“Troppa Says:
April 21st, 2009 at 1:11 pm
BK – The Tida Vs Corolla Showdown is on drive.com”

Gee Troppa, that is a really imaginative and original response!!! LOL. ….and some people wonder why….

I know I will be interested in the result, however it is hardly what you call a world stopper and/or a war starter. However there are some that think that way….
http://www.v8supergeek.com Luke

well, the audio in that video is useless.
AussieCars

@Devils

On an economy test wouldnt using an XR6 be a little fairer than using an XR6T?

As pointed out the first video posted is useless….try using a proper mic next time boys
http://www.v8supergeek.com Luke

Well maybe actually using a proper camera instead of a phone is more like what I’d be thinking.
KC

What kind of terrible phone did you record that on. Even a $50/month n95 takes better video than that. Can’t hear anything. Also if you want us to watch live updates, why are the updates just teasers? Thats not an update.
Duck

Sorry Car Advice but………………..I can’t hear a thing! I can’t hear stuff but not words clearly!
Duck

I can hear words but I can’t understand it.
Old CarAdvice Reader

I agree Duck, the quality is so bad I’m having trouble understanding what they’re saying. But if this is from a mobile phone, well, you can’t expect much better.
Biggles

Why were the results covered up?
Siebe

These dyno tests are taking a while…
Limited Slip

Devils advocate………you are right ……….the panels from an FG roadcar and V8 supercar may be the same shape but they are different. On the FG roadcar the whole side of the car is one piece and the V8 supercar has its panels riveted to a subframe for ease of replacement and to save money on expensive body repairs as it is much quicker and easier to remove and replace rivets the to cut and weld panels on. I dont know about the Commode.
Paul Maric

Very sorry guys.

We had a monumental technical stuff up with the live streaming bizzo. It’s something new we’re trying and it didn’t work as planned and as tested earlier.

KC – it actually was an N95 8GB…thanks for the technical advice though.

We are working to rectify this and had an actual video camera there on standby which taped the dyno testing and results. So that will be available on the site at a later date, so it wasn’t totally fruitless.

Again, apologies for the stuff up. It will be fixed and ready for part two of the test which is the economy drive on Tuesday from 6AM.

The dyno results were very interesting. We’ll hold back on publishing those until the weekend when we have the video to go with the results. Either way, the results surprised even us!

The dyno we were using was brand new and Springy Performance were using new DynoLogic software which approximates to an accurate degree the flywheel kilowatts.
Andrew M

If one shows different power to the claimed, does that bring into play the argument of who uses what system to rate them??

I remember ford and holden use to use different scales for measuring KW, do they still??
Falcodore

I remember Wheels doing a dyno test on the XR8 and SS and the Ford actually put more power to the wheels than the SS. And that was before the AFM Holdens.

Wonder if it will be a similar result.
http://www.gamblesports.org GambleSports

Good thanks for the info
Paul Maric

Andrew M:

It’s irrelevant which system either Ford or Holden uses.

There’s one way to compute torque and power on an engine dyno and likewise on a rolling road arrangement like the one we have used.

If either manufacturer wants to bluff figures, they will be caught out when the cars are actually tested using industry standards.

Either way, both the SS and XR8 were within 10% of their claimed flywheel power figures. It’s just that one was further than the other in terms of the accuracy of the claimed figures.

There was also an interesting discrepancy with torque.

Either way, you guys can check out the figures and discuss it amongst yourselves once it all goes online.
Buck

I agree with the other’s who have noted that it would have been nice to see the XR6T included.

Interestingly I note that the claimed ADR fuel consumption figure for the XR6T is 12.1 litres per 100Km’s significantly better that either of the two here on test and I suspect the fact that maximum torque is made from as little as 2000 r.p.m all the way out to 4750 r.p.m.. means in real world conditions it wouldn’t just be in fuel economy where the XR6T would be ahead.
Paul Maric

Buck:

We’re XR6T converts – trust me.

The basis of this test was to find out if AFM (Active Fuel Management) was really worth all the time and effort Holden has spent on the project.

If we wanted an all out performance war, the XR6T would have been at the top of the list.
Andrew M

Paul,
just firstly,
I thought one was using what could be termed a metric system for measuring power and the other an imperial scale.
Both scales were considered to within industry standards.

Dont know if thats still the case. Perhaps someone who has had more to do with that side of things can elaborate.

Also, if this test is to see if the AFM is worth it, why isnt it an SS Commodore versus an AFM SS Commodore.
Thats the only true indicator
http://www.caradvice.com.au Paul Maric

Andrew M:

We used the same dyno, the same tester and the same conditions for both cars. It cannot possibly be any fairer than that.

The XR8 is a direct competitor to the SS, the AFM SS competes in no way with its manual sibling.
Andrew M

With the Dyno,
Im not saying any results will be unfair.
I was just offering some reason as to why actual results may differ from those stated

I also know that the XR8 is the direct competitor, but as you said earlier the aim of this test was to see if the AFM is worthwhile.
The only true way to evaluate that is to run it against the previous model Auto SS (before the AFM was introduced)

hypotheticlly speaking, say the pre AFM SS was better than the XR8 to start with, and the AFM still proves that, how will it be decided if AFM has bettered the SS.

On the flip side, say the SS was previously worse than the XR8, and it still is, it doesnt mean the AFM is a waste of time.
For example if the XR8 is 14L/100k and PRE AFM SS was 16L, and the AFM is 15L
WOuld you class the AFM as a waste of time because it isnt better than the XR8 even though it made for improvement in economy over the pre-AFM
http://www.caradvice.com.au Paul Maric

Andrew M, it sounds like you’re clutching at straws.

If you order an auto SS, you get AFM, you get no choice in the matter. That makes it directly comparable to the auto XR8. The products Holden used to offer are totally irrelevant to the new car market.

With all these comparisons, it’s nigh on impossible to sway loyal brand supporters.
Andrew M

Paul,
No straw clutching here, you obviously dont understand my point. I realise that AFM is a must with the Auto.

QUOTE Paul……….
“The basis of this test was to find out if AFM (Active Fuel Management) was really worth all the time and effort Holden has spent on the project.”

Sorry, but I just cant see the logic that benchmarking the economy of the SS AFM against the XR8 will give a clear cut answer to the question of whether or not AFM was worth the time spent on it.
So lets say the SS was already more economical than the XR8 before they added AFM.
Lets say the AFM SS is still more economical than the XR8.

how is it to be determined from that whether or not the AFM is worthwhile???
The only way to give a clear cut answer is to compare the Pre and post AFM models

Did ford compare their 6cyl falcon to the 6cyl commodore to find out whether it was worth while fitting the ZF6 to the falcon??
KC

It was an n95 8gb? I don’t know what settings you’re using as I have the exact same phone and it sure takes better audio and video than that: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIlhAlBoUmM
Paul Maric

KC:

Due to the bandwidth limitations of live streaming, the maximum we can stream in terms of the video size is 320×240. Although the camera supports 640×480, it can’t be streamed at that size.

It’s easy to tape it and then upload it like you’ve done, but it’s unrealistic for it to happen with the setup we have at the moment.

Part of the issue was with the audio quality, which was inherently set to low. This has been fixed. The other issue we had was that the microphone wasn’t facing us and it was being blocked by the tripod it was tied to.

As I mentioned earlier, we’ve fixed this and it won’t be an issue with the subsequent video feeds we do on Tuesday.

We encourage you guys to chat to us and ask any questions you may have. That way we can make it as interactive as possible.
Rick

Hey guys really looking forward to this test – great thing to do, testing two Aussie muscle cars over the ANZAC weekend!

Personally I think that AFM is a gimmick and a complication that is unrequired, those small gains could be had by using a better transmission or exhaust system.

Don’t forget to make comment on the braking capabilities of both cars also – I take it that the V Box equipment can do that as well as indicating the handling traits of both cars.
Ian

PAUL i belive that holden (apart from propagander marketing)didn’t spend anything on it as it is a GM(usa)design, they have had it in the states for a while and it should not be marketed as australian idea or that holden has come up with it because they didn’t. That is misleading.
Bret

Ian,
Spot on!
Benjie

Great spelling Ian.

Of course Holden spent money on the technology you dingbat.

They didn’t implement it here and hope for the best. The reason it took them this long to implement the technology was because they couldn’t get it to work and had to develop it.

Paul didn’t say anywhere that they marketed it as their own.

And Ian, you don’t need to come back as another user to try and amplify your half-brained comments.
John

Isn’t having a V8 economy showdown a little like seeing which heavyweight boxer can arrange flowers the best?

Pointless.

If you don’t want to fill up your V8, don’t buy one!
steve

are you using PULP on both cars?
Bret

Benjie,
“Develope” is a pretty strong term for tweaking a few parameters in some software for a crate motor fully imported from the States.

See, it’s people like you that shows that the GMH propaganda machine is worth much more than any real engineering development.

And BTW no, I’m not Ian either. Perhaps it’s you that is so shallow to have multiple aliases??
Devil’s Advocate

AussieCars Says:
April 22nd, 2009 at 12:31 pm
“@Devils
On an economy test wouldnt using an XR6 be a little fairer than using an XR6T?”

If anything AussieCars, it would be a fairer test using the XR6T over the XR6. The reason I mentioned the XR6T with the SV6 is that BOTH of them are higher performance versions of the base model car. ie, upgraded/modified engines as well. If you went the cooking XR6, you may as well use an XT as the only difference is a more sport biased suspension, a bit of fibreglass stuck on here and there and a couple more creature comforts inside. If anything, the XT (with the ZF option ticked of course) would be even more economical than the XR6, not to mention faster due to it being lighter!
http://sds silva

wait till FG SERIES2, 320kW standard for XR8, some say 570Nm standard, and some say GT/GT-P may be 330kW but with 600Nm all from the very same architecture starting from old BOSS260 ” in fact 294kW” de-tuned to 260kW;) , while the current XR8 290kW or as previous BA/BF GT is 312kW de-tuned to reliable 290kW. Not to mention that current 315 GT is actually making 338kW, but restricted again to 315kW. ciao