Car Advice

2009 HSV Clubsport R8 Review & Road Test

HSV CLUBSPORT

Pros: Pulls like a wounded bull; engine note; interior room.

Cons: Fuel consumption; automatic gearbox; wheels look small.

By Paul Maric |
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Price: $32,670 to $51,240

Our Rating:  

2009 HSV Clubsport R8 Review & Road Test

So wrong, but oh so right!

Model Tested:

  • 2009 HSV Clubsport R8 – six-speed automatic – $67,320

Options:

  • Leather seats $2490;

CarAdvice Rating: rating11.gifrating11.gifrating11.gifrating11.gif

- by Paul Maric

When Aussies set out to design a car, they sort out the main part first – the engine. In HSV’s case, it’s gone for the ‘bigger is better’ approach and dropped a 6.2-litre Chevrolet V8 into the engine, yep that should do the job!

HSV then went ahead and tinkered with Magnetic Ride Control (MRC) to optimise the drive. Fitted as standard to the GTS, Grange and Senator, the system jars the ride and is overly firm in my opinion. That leaves us with the only other sedan in the range, the Clubsport R8.

Our red Clubby served a dual purpose. Not only was it used to cart around the winners of our Victorian Red Cross Bushfire Appeal 2009 auctions, we also held on to it to do a road test … err well that was the best excuse we could find to keep it for as long as possible!

The E-series HSV range has been out for a while now. Launched soon after the VE Commodore range, HSV built on Holden’s work to bring its high performance range. Over that time, HSV upgraded from the defunct 6.0-litre LS2 engine, opting for the newer 6.2-litre LS3. HSV also released the W427 – a 7.0-litre, 375kW V8 ball-breaker – during that time.

During our charity lunch, the two auction winners had a chance to ride shotgun in both the Clubsport and the FPV 5th Anniversary GT and handed over their opinion – along with the contents of their lunch when Road Test Editor Matt Brogan was behind the wheel! More on that later.

First point to deal with is the gearbox fitted to our test vehicle. Back in 2006 when the VE was released, the six-speed automatic optionally fitted to HSV’s V8 range did the job. It was nothing special, but we made do.

HSV Clubsport R8

With the introduction of Ford’s revised, 315kW BOSS engine and ZF automatic ‘box, which was also fitted to our FPV test vehicle, it’s like comparing chalk and cheese. The six-speed unit in the HSV is now so far behind the game that it’s time for a rethink.

Where the ZF Sachs gearbox in the FPV will shift through gears smoothly, the GM unit screams through gears and changes up cogs in an uncanny, jaw shattering style, there’s nothing civil about it. Heaven forbid the gearbox forgetting to change up, which often happens when using the sequential shift mode.

So, it’s not looking good for the HSV you’d think. Well, that’s about where the downsides finish. While the automatic gearbox is a genuine pig, you really cannot scoff at the rest of the package.

Take for example the acceleration. Both of our charity auction winners commented on how much harder the HSV seems to pull when the loud pedal is sandwiched between a size 13 and the floorboard.

HSV Clubsport R8

Then there are the upshifts! Sure, they’re about as rough as an uncut diamond, but chirping into second gear – especially when you consider the size of the massive 275mm rear tyres – is most certainly something of which to be proud!

The steering is a bit vague, but it’s not too bad when you consider the car’s great mass. I feel that the steering wheel is a bit big though, it makes changing direction through a set of tight corners somewhat uneasy.

Stopping the car is a set of massive AP Racing slotted rotors. Brake feel is consistent and strong throughout the entire application. This leads me to the Electronic Stability Control calibration, superb, there’s no other word to describe it.

HSV has managed to knock together a mighty fine safety package. It lets you have enough play before it kicks in, which is great when it’s absolutely bucketing down. If you’re overeager on the throttle, the Clubby is more than happy to dance.

HSV Clubsport R8HSV Clubsport R8

As I mentioned earlier, I don’t think much of the MRC calibration in HSV’s Grange, GTS and Senator. It makes the ride extremely firm and takes away from the fun of the whole thing. The suspension calibration in the R8 on the other hand caters more toward comfort.

There’s no perfect compromise between the MRC system and the standard suspension setup. As such, the Clubsport has a fair bit of body roll when punted through a set of sweeping bends. The whole package remains composed though, lending to the impressive chassis dynamics with which HSV has worked.

Our test car was well and truly run in, it had some 13,000km on the clock and to be honest, it went harder than any other HSV I’ve driven. It seems some of the press cars we are handed with a handful of kilometres on the dial are still a bit tight. Put some hard earned kilometres on them and they slingshot like you would never believe.

HSV Clubsport R8HSV Clubsport R8

Another point of concern, yet again tending towards the car’s age, is the dated interior, and it’s certainly beginning to show its age. Dark overtones and bland colours take away from the whole experience.

The driver and front passenger seats are built for big people. They’re wide as nothing else and cause people like me to move around a bit when attacking apexes. The side bolster and bottom bolster are good, they are spaced just too far apart to offer proper support.

Interior room is really world class. I’m yet to see any other international sedans on the market with the same amount of room as a Commodore. With abnormally sized feet and arms, I always have the driver’s seat almost all the way back. This means no leg room for rear passengers.

It’s a totally different story in the Clubsport though. Rear seat passengers still have acres of room with which to play and bucket seats also mean plenty of head room. It’s really hard to fault the Commodore’s ability to move people, quite quickly too in the Clubsport’s case!

HSV Clubsport R8HSV Clubsport R8

So, what are we working with under the bonnet?

It’s a 6.2-litre V8 that produces some 317kW (one upmanship on the Ford BOSS anyone?) and a stellar 550Nm. The claimed fuel efficiency figure of 14.5-litres/100km is, err, achievable, if you try. However, expect north of 15-litres/100km if you want to be more realistic.

Fret not about the gearbox, it’s also available as a six-speed manual. That unit is far more respectable and more of a pleasure to work with, and until GM invests in some decent gearboxes, I’d steer clear of the auto brigade.

What’s it worth then? You can expect to fork out $67,320 for the Clubsport R8. However, with the current economic downturn, put your haggling cap on, as there are some bargains to be had.

HSV Clubsport R8HSV Clubsport R8

Without a doubt, this is a performance bargain. To the best of my knowledge, there’s nothing in this price range, or even within cooee, that matches the Clubsport for comfort, space, performance and looks.

Yes, FPV’s GT offers a good rebuttal, but simply can’t match the Clubby’s pulling power and cornering ability.

Our charity auction winners were from opposite sides of the fence in terms of their brand preference. But, they did agree that Aussies have something to be proud of in the HSV and FPV range on offer in Australia.

It’s horses for courses really. Either way, there’ll be no convincing FPV fans to cross the fence and the same vice versa.

Either way you look at it though, whether you sink your money into the red or the blue, you’re getting a people moving, tyre frying, head turning weapon for your hard earned cents.

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Specifications:

  • Engine: 6,162cc Vee-8 (LS3)
  • Power: 317kW @ 6000rpm
  • Torque: 550Nm @ 4600rpm
  • Induction: Naturally aspirated
  • Transmission: Six-speed automatic
  • Differential/Driven Wheels: Limited slip/rear wheel drive
  • Brakes: 365mm 4-piston front/350mm 4-piston rear, slotted rotors
  • Top Speed: N/A
  • 0-100km/h: 4.96s (claimed)
  • 0-400m: N/A
  • CO2 Emissions: 345g/100km
  • Fuel Consumption: 14.5-litres/100km
  • Fuel Tank Capacity: 73-litres
  • Fuel Type: 95RON+ petrol
  • ANCAP Rating: Four-stars
  • Airbags: Six-airbags
  • Safety: ABS brakes with EBD and BA. ESP.
  • Spare Wheel: Full size spare tyre
  • Tow Capacity: 1600kg
  • Turning Circle: 11.4m
  • Warranty: 3-year/100,000km
  • Weight: 1777kg
  • Wheels: 19-inch alloys with, front 245/45R19, rear 275/35R19 tyres.

 

Reader reviews of the HSV CLUBSPORT

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  • Alex

    Why do these cars have to look like that? It’s so ugly and completely tasteless but it obviously has something to offer so why can’t they make it look decent? Is it really so hard?

  • Nightshifter

    I think the whole car looks alright until it gets to the rear brake lights……

    The interior also looked very American……

  • http://caradvise.com.au Schah7

    Us Aussies are very lucky to have such a Choice of top class performance cars at a bargin price.!
    Comparing the engines:
    Holden 6.2 litre 317kw
    Falcon needs only 5.4 litre 315kw to produce virtually the same power.
    One up for Falcon I’d say.

  • Tim

    God I love those rear lights, especially when they light up. Everything else….rubbish. Sorry to be so brutal, but this car has nothing going for it at that price. Engine is nice and big ofcourse but its not refined, gearbox – crap, reliability – crap etc.

    Now now, I understand this isn’t marketed to the same audience that will buy a 70K BMW, but in this day and age I would hope that when I pay that much money for a car – it will have a proper gearbox, decent interior, nice looks and an engine to match. This though, excels in some areas, crumbles in others.

  • Allan D

    Tim,

    I picked up a brand new clubby for 51k driveaway. I don’t think you can get anything even remotely close in performance for that price.

    I bought a 6 speed manual which is quite good. Come with short shifter as standard. You will actually pay less for the 6 speed manual.

    To put it into perspective, I paid more for my Bmw 120d Msport, which is a 120kw diesel.

  • Chris

    Yes the engine is good on the clubby but you do notice the difference in the transmission going from the FPV into the clubby and Matt and I know the brakes are brilliant. The exhaust nice of the FPV is so much nicer.

  • GGG

    Allan D: Was that for a 2009 build? Cheap, regardless.

  • Allan D

    GGG,

    I bought it in December 08, I believe it was built in August 08 according to the badge in the engine bay, so probably an 08 model? Still has a 6.2Ltr LS3 with a Tremec Tr-6060 though.

  • Allan D
  • Gibbo

    The interior right accrosss the VE range from omega to senator realy needs to be up dated, it looks too bland and cheap.

  • http://skyline The Salesman

    You just can not get any more Aussie than owning a Holden with a big V8 meat and potatoes, carton of beer and don’t look at me because I will punch you in the face mate, car.
    I love it because it just doesn’t make sense and it doesn’t have to, it goes hard, look good and for the price you just can not argue it. As history has shown us these old cars are a good investment. You will pay many times over the original purchase price to buy an old V8 anything Holden or Ford. I just wonder if we will still have room for them in the modern, environmentally friendly, carbon emission and fuel conscious future. I hope so. Now, were is my meat pie?

  • Mick

    Chris, I have to agree with you on the FPV exhaust, when those baffles open up the noise is great.
    The Clubby seemed to launch better than the GT because of the greater rear grip, and it held better through corners as the GT was waiting to step sideways at every opportunity.

    But it comes down to brand preference in the end, lets face it your not going to invest your hard earned into a HSV of FPV unless there is some loyalty there.

  • Mick

    Well said Salesman, make sure there is plenty of tomato sauce on that meat pie of yours!

  • Limited Slip

    Cheapness is all over this car from the horrid interior and handbrake to the awful body kit. For a 6.2 litre engine the performance is nothing to brag about but with pushrods and 2 valves per cylinder I guess it is at the cutting edge of American GM engine technology !!!

    F6 is miles ahead……and the GT has more finess and character with its lovely DOHC V8

  • myked

    It’s an interesting thing brand loyalty. Where the heart seems to over-ride any type of logical thought!

    If you want to buy an “iconic” Australian brand then which happens to have a V8 under the bonnet then how could you possibly buy anything other than this car?? To get anything else comparable in European then you would have to spend upward of $150K.

    If you wanted a faster car Aussie car that is just as much fun to drive then you might have to look over the fence… but I’m sure the loyalist will be happy with this!

  • Limited Slip

    The Salesman……….yep…….nothing more Aussie than owning a Holden(American Owned) with an American engine and American transmission ! It even has an American quality interior ……..lol Pie with sauce? More like ……do you want fries with that .

  • http://skyline The Salesman

    Its what it means to Aussies thats important. Yes you are right of course. But most Aussies dont know and Holden are not about to tell them.

  • nobody

    I’m no holden fan by any measure, I don’t like the exterior or interior of this thing. I don’t think I like a thing about this thing but you know what – it doesn’t matter because I’m sure if I had a go in one of these things and stepped on the pedal I’d be a happy man. The engine’s a ripper.

    Also as pointed out it’s great value for money compared to the Euro’s though one can argue it depends what kinda package you’re after.

    As good fun as this would be, I wouldn’t take this over a similar Ford by any stretch of the imagination. Just suits my personality better.

  • lazybones

    “You just can not get any more Aussie than owning a Holden with a big V8 meat and potatoes, carton of beer and don’t look at me because I will punch you in the face mate, car.”

    Brilliant :)

    I’d say an XR6 Turbo gives you more bang for you buck, but at 47Kw less power.

  • Bavarian Missile (.)(.)

    Why is it that the press cars are all auto,more enthusiasm can be feed back through a manual I personally think.

    An honest review Paul but out of interest when you drove the Gts did they have as many clicks on them ,I found the Fords dont loosen up till at least 10-15000 ks.

    Steering still Vague ! That was what I didnt like about the Monaro I drove before buying the BA GT ,whats the difference in their set ups ?

    Either either what ever your choice they both make damn good tourers for those long weekends that are coming up.

  • Devil666

    Limited Slip, do you live under a bridge? Because your trolling efforts today are brilliant.

    The car is cheap, why are you complaining about cheapness?

    The body kit is the same as the one on the Ford, how can you possibly mention it without being an incredible hypocrite.

    The LS3 is a fine engine with a delicious torque delivery that just seems to get better and better right to the redline. The LS9 is the pinnacle of GM engine tech BTW, and yes, its more powerful and torquier than the Supercharged 5.4 in the Ford GT.

    Score: 2 wins for GM and old school pushrods.

    If I wanted DOHC I’d buy anything AMG63.

    “More finesse and character”? Is that a euphemism for slower and less powerful?

  • Good read

    I’d choose a turbo Falcon over this anyday!

  • Adam

    I agree with the salesman!

    This car is soooo politically incorrect that you just can’t help but love it.

    People need to realise that we won’t have brutal beasts like this in the future. Make hay while the sun shines! If I had the money I would get one (though more likely in SS V guise)

  • ChopstaR87

    and GM’s Third win be the first to go bankrupt! lol!!!

    as you all most likely know, i am a Ford fan… so i’ll take a 310Kw 565Nm turbo inline 6 made here in australia please with a 6 speed ZF Auto (yes its Euro) that eats this machine in every way….

    But saying that its a good performance for the price, its just that you get more from the F6 for basically the same price .. and if you people have read the lastest wheels Mag the F6 is only 1Km/h Slower at the 400m mark! whats that telling ya.

    really good car… only holden fans would buy it,just like only Ford fans buy GT / F6

  • ChopstaR87

    correction for above comment

    ***1Km/H slower then the W427 at the 400m mark***

  • V2

    These cars are still being produced!!!! Are these cars aimed at children?? They look like hot wheel cars. Here is a tip Holden, grow up!. I cannot wait for holden and ford to die so we can choose from only european cars.

  • Bavarian Missile (.)(.)

    Quote…….”and if you people have read the latest wheels Mag the F6 is only 1Km/h Slower at the 400m mark! whats that telling ya.”

    If you take the spare tyre out of the GT when you run you’ll get that extra bit you may need to win,or flash it and nail it ;)

    As Paul said though,” It’s horses for courses really. Either way, there’ll be no convincing FPV fans to cross the fence and the same vice versa.”

    I think there are probably more Ford fans on this site but Im guessing if either HSV or FPV were to go you would have fans throwing a leg a over the other side to satisfy that need for raw grunt Australians so love ;) ))

  • Dan

    Myked – “To get anything else comparable in European then you would have to spend upward of $150K.”

    Keep in mind that those $150K Europeans have inflated prices due to Aus govt’s measures in place for market protection. If you were to remove those and place this car on equal footing with the Euros, it would be priced the same, and obviously, we know which one is the better car don’t we? It’s understandable why it’s there of course (to protect our local jobs), however don’t believe that the Euros can manage to do it better becasue they charge more, as that’s just incorrect. Aussies still have a lot to learn in that respect.

  • Shane

    Um, slight correction on the engine, its not actually a Chevrolet engine (and most Holden people who badge their cars as Chevs need to wake up!). The engine is actually built by GM Powertrain for Chev / Holden / Pontiac etc. Chevrolet do not actually build these engines, therefor Holdens are not actually Chevs. In relation to the 2009 VE HSV’s, its seriously time for an update, the current Ford/FPV’s look far superior, smoother and more modern. The VE is really aging.

  • myked

    Dan, totally agree…

    Speaking as an owner of an FPV F6 (and ex-Holden owner), i love the car, engine/drive train. But the finish and interior are atrocious, and i know that the Holden can’t do any better. If the European cars we in the same ballpark price wise the choice would be a lot simpler!

  • Dan

    Exactly. Hence those protection measures are needed, otherwise Ford and Holden wouldn’t get many sales.

    Having said that, it’s all about economies of scale. Falcodores are sold locally only, so there is no global market for them at all. The Euros are obviously sold globally, they ought to be better refined.

  • CA

    Dan stop stirring again. Be Warned.

    Oh and BTW: “Dan” IS “Good Read”

  • Supply & Demand

    I prefer the SS and SS-V exterior, when fitted with the optional 19″ wheels. Not saying the HSV is ugly, far from it, I just think its a little over-stated.

  • Dan

    CA said – “Be Warned.”

    You got a problem with something mate?

  • SteveH

    I know the performance of these things is good in a straight line, but rather than go for DOHC engines and try and bring their technology at least into the latter half of the 20th century, they just make the engine bigger. At least Ford have DOHC in their V8′s and they put out pretty much the same power as the 800cc larger Holden engines. I also remember looking at a Wheels or Motor magazine where they ran the Ford and Holden on a dyno and found the Holden to lose power quickly after about the second dyno run.

  • Will

    One ponders the bar of General Motors logic. General Motors is about to go to the wall and they market a machine like this. Had the performance been achieved via diesel electric or diesel this would have been a land mark machine that would be eligible for Australian automotive history.
    This is marketed to idiots with small penis’ and who’m after purchase query how they will insure such a machine and will forever replace drive train components. Just another Luzt wet-dream.

  • Will

    Er, Luzt should read ‘Lutz’, sorry guys.

  • Joober@Work

    Jeremy Clarkson said it best, Moronic…

  • http://caradvise.com.au Schah7

    Limited Slip / ChopstaR87 / SteveH: SO CORRECT
    and all you HOLDEN/O.H.V. lovers: SO WRONG
    D.O.H.C v O.H.V
    Is just about EVERY Car Manufacture[worldwide]are “Wrong” &
    G.M/Holden[Bankrupt] has it “Right”?
    Sorry Chaps your ol’ ineffecient push-rod V8 is past its
    “use-by-date”
    The year is 2009 NOT 1959!

  • Joober@Work

    Steve – Agree, but there is always a following or cult in regards to ‘there’s no replacement for displacement’ its a quick sure fix to gain power… Disregarding all the economic, enviromental impacts.

  • ChineseDriver

    As a Chinese without any bias towards Holden or Ford.
    I think the Ford Falcon range is a more attractive choice.

    Ford feels more civilized, while Holden feels like a tough man without much brain.

    Sorry if my comment offend anyone.

  • Dan

    ‘there’s no replacement for displacement’

    Oh yes there is! Turbo and technology :)

  • Bavarian Missile (.)(.)

    Wsnt there talk of the next V8s for FPV reverting back to push rod engines ? There is only so much grunt they can extract out of the 5.4 quad cam . Sure pushrod engines are old I agree,but hey if you can still extract good grunt out of them why bother going hi tech……..Do we all remember the problem the first lot of FPVs had with their valve trains and oil usage ?

  • http://caradvise.com.au Schah7

    ChineseDriver it could well be your “home-country” that picks up G.M/Holden [when they go bankrupt] and give “that”
    car some much needed finesse and over-due engine technology

  • SteveH

    Agree Dan, give me the F6 any day. I know there is the mentality of no replacement for displacement, but even the W427′s engine is pushrod isn’t it? Imagagine how much power a 7 litre DOHC from Europe or Japan would be putting out, in a far more refined package

  • http://caradvise.com.au Schah7

    Bavarian Missile [.] [.]
    I hardly think so
    FPV are either picking up the new 5 litre D.O.H.C 4valve V8
    or the other newly released 6.2 litre V8 also with D.O.H.C
    Heads.
    P.S the “Anti-spam word:” I had to use was “Buick” what a joke THAT v6 was! LOL.

  • ChineseDriver

    Schoah7.

    you know what, many GM cars made in China, are actually powered by Holden engines. About 5 years ago, we used to own a ‘Buick Regal (2.5L)’, and on the engine cover it says ‘Made by Australian Holden factory’.

    Don’t worry, even China bought GM or Holden or whatever, the only thing they can do is to pay that company to develop new technologies, because in China’s side there’s simply nothing with ‘finesse and over-due engine technology’.

  • http://caradvise.com.au Schah7

    SteveH Exactly!
    Hey BMW only need 5 litre v8 to equal THAT 7 litre POS
    G.M v8

  • Dan

    Schah7 – “Hey BMW only need 5 litre v8 to equal THAT 7 litre POS G.M v8″

    Present and in the past. It’s all the same. Back in 1989 LS400s 4L 4 valves per cyl V8 developed 196kw, back when Holden and Ford managed 140kw out of their 5L dinosaur donks…

  • Bavarian Missile (.)(.)

    I guess Ill have to recheck my inside source at FPV then Schah7 . Either way lets hope they dont have the problems they had with the BAs hey,that was a nightmare although even with a broken rocker it didnt run too bad !

    For those looking at buying an early BA GT some time look out for these problems.

    http://www.carsales.com.au/advice/2008/large-passenger/fpv/gt/used-car-advice-fpv-ba-gt-gtp-200304-7500

  • http://caradvise.com.au Schah7

    Bav Mis [.] [.]
    That was back with the BA, lets just hope with the on going
    experience they’ve sorted those issuses out!

  • Name (required)

    f6 any day v8s r the dinosaurs of the future
    the f6 and the xr6t are the best value for money when it comes to purchasing brand new and modding

  • Phill

    Dan – When I went to Holden school in the early ninetys,one of the trainers said Holden had a 5 liter V8 with a three valve head(experimental) that produced 220kw,too bad that didn’t make production hey.

  • Dan

    Concept and reality, not same Phill :)

  • Phill

    Dan – Someone should tell Toyota that the next time they wheel out a concept sportcar.

  • Joober@Work

    “Present and in the past. It’s all the same. Back in 1989 LS400s 4L 4 valves per cyl V8 developed 196kw, back when Holden and Ford managed 140kw out of their 5L dinosaur donks… ”

    Agree – but too look at it, how much does it cost and effort was it to build the 4L engine vs the 5L? I think Holden and Ford are more cost conscious therefore less refined and less in terms of quality therefore less in output…

  • Dan

    Phill, then what’s the point of your comment about Holden’s mystery 220kw V8 back in the 80s? Assuming what you say is true, they obviously couldn’t get it working reliably enough to be released on the market, otherwise they would! And it still wouldn’t have been better than the four valve 4 litre V8. It was probably the same motor as the one sold, except they leaned it out heaps to produce more power yeah? Ping is power! Probably didn’t last after the first two dyno runs before needing to get rebuilt lol!

  • the fact

    it is still a commodore and asking for $67,000…over price.

  • Dan

    Joober, half arsed effort in other words yeah? :P

  • SteveH

    As opposed to all of the multi-valve engines Toyota already produce Phill?

  • Phill

    Right on there Joober,How many markets was that lexus sold in compered to the commodore,heaps meaning more development money,its very simple to work out.And Dan toyota pulled there TRD Aurion from the 08 12hr for fear of a DNF.(thats the engine blowing up)

  • Dan

    LOL Steve. Holden is only now learning about multivalve engines. Something that other brands have been into back in the 80s! Holden has gotta catch up sometime I suppose.

  • Bavarian Missile (.)(.)

    I understand what you saying Joober ,and unless you have owned Ozzie Muscle cars or been involved with them you really cant appreciate the rawness of them,and that what Australian want.I know loads of people that can afford European technology and do as well in some instances but they still hunger for that loudness that the local product delivers.

    Of course Ford and Holden can make boring subdued cars if they want but thats not what their customers want , I think for such a small market Australia delivers a bloody good product ,who else in the world does similar ? 20 million people remember………..

    Ford and Holden are careful of entering another horsepower war from what happened back in the 70s,remember it was little old Ford in Australia that first came up with a fast four door back in 1967 .

  • Mike

    Great post dan, why did CA tell you to “be warned”? FPV any day of the week over this.

  • Bavarian Missile (.)(.)

    SteveH best not bring the T word into it cause we know where that will lead !

  • Phill

    SteveH Toyota and Nissan copied the Ford cosworth DBA racing engine that was around in 1959 for there first multivalve engine.

  • Dan

    Phill – “SteveH Toyota and Nissan copied the Ford cosworth DBA racing engine that was around in 1959 for there first multivalve engine.”

    Empty argument Phill. Where was this multivalve engine in the 80s and 90s Fords? Also, care to provide a reference to this claim? Or was it made on the spot?

    Mike, no idea. Someone playing jokes or something.

  • SteveH

    That will be the last time I mention the T word BM, promise.

    Can’t Holden source their engines from one of the GM companies though? To say that in the current day that Australia is too small a market to warrant the expenditure on a new engine is not really correct as all of the Holden engines are sourced from somewhere else in the GM ‘empire’

  • Phill

    Dan You will look at the bore centers,bore spacing,stroke and bore diameter,they are the same and the japanese love technical stuff not surprising they mass produced it in bulk numbers first.

  • Dan

    Good point Steve! Their V8s are US sourced, not Australian. The engine is used in many other cars GLOBALLY, not just the commodore. That sorry excuse Phill put forward just doesn’t work.

  • Mal

    For the same money I’d take a Passat R36. 0-100 in 5.6 seconds is more than fast enough, DSG gearbox, 4 Motion All Wheel Drive, a decent interior, plus it doesn’t hurt looking at the Passat =)

  • Dan

    Phill, references please. Not wild claims.

  • EOTC

    ^ now you’re talking Mal. Couldn’t agree more….

  • Joober@Work

    BM – Definately Agree! its unique, unique feel and sound that no other manufacturers offer or willing to offer.

    Also to add, its the “v8 interest group” are such a significant number of people(part of our culture) that it warrants production as a mass market car. Where else in the world apart from the U.S and Aus, v8′s are so prominent. and as mass produced its bang for buck. and I mean bang not just as in performance but + standout + feel

    M3, LS400, or any other Euro/Jap V8 are typically reserved for prestige or higher end buyers. As higher end buyers, quality, refinement and power are required from an engine. More development, spending goes into it + you cover the costs with the premium price you pay for one.

  • Phill

    Dan – One Word “Google”

  • Bavarian Missile (.)(.)

    Mal sure the Passat will put a smirk on your face but raw loud Aussie Muscle full noise brings a smile to any REAL car enthusiast face . Its a muscle car people are buying here .

    I think there are some identity crisis’s happening on this thread….Oh dear !

  • Camski

    Mal, isn’t that the truth =D

    I couldn’t get over the hilarity of a 5 Door Station wagon out running a 2 (kinda 4′ish…) door coupe round the track. The cars in question here are the R36 and RX8.

    VW have put together a really nice package here, and that V6 exhaust note is the best thing this side of a 350Z.

    But as has been said, there’s no denying the fact that there’s something special about Holden’s and Ford’s, more specifically, their HSV and FPV variants =)

  • Dan

    Phill, two words, “prove it”.

    Not gonna google around looking for proof of your wild claims. You make a statement, you back it up. Simple.

    Bavaria – “M3, LS400, or any other Euro/Jap V8 are typically reserved for prestige or higher end buyers. As higher end buyers, quality, refinement and power are required from an engine. More development, spending goes into it + you cover the costs with the premium price you pay for one.”

    Did you know M3, IS-F and other refined V8s go for the same price in US as we are paying for our un-refined V8s? Thanks to good old Aus Govt’s local market protection… Prices of those premium cars would have been the same as the R8 if it wasn’t for that. The premium we pay for them here, is the artificial BS added on top to protect the locals.

  • Hummerbug

    Haaaa Dan your a funny bugger !

  • Golfschwein

    Is the bloke who thought the VL Commy had a 3 speed auto transmission really qualified to comment at all?

  • Dan

    Golfschwein, the VL DID indeed have a 3 speed auto transmission hahaa. Pathetic hey!

    I figured I’ll post a reference for you also. It’s in the table under the picture to the right :)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holden_VL_Commodore

  • Hummerbug

    Ummm Dan any looney can write on Wikipedia?? Did you write that article?? Just need to know thats all…

  • JasonP

    True Joober.

    Whether it’s an FPV or HSV, they are value for money, considering the performance they give.

    They can be economical if driven gently, & mine has proven to be bullet proof reliable for the 62000km covered so far, as have all the V8s I’ve owned.

    They do need to trim the weight of them though, however recent “premium” Euro & japanese brands could do the same.

    Mine is 1805 kg, without passengers.

  • Fezza

    Oh snap golfie! You just got pwned!

  • Dan

    Golfschwein, any looney can write on here also, hence why I am more willing to believe wikipedia than yourself ;P

  • Hummerbug

    Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

  • Golfschwein

    Only the V8 had a 3 speeder. The 6 cylinder had a 4 speeder, which Dan didn’t seem to remember (or know) at the time.

    I don’t read links. Sorry.

  • Dan

    Golfschwein, so now you are saying the VL DID have a 3 speed transmission. You sound heaps confused mate! Feel free to backpedal now :)

  • Golfschwein

    I made myself clear, Moron. Must go now. Very busy writing successful mortgages!

    :)

  • JasonP

    The VL V8s were 3 speed autos, the 6 & Turbo 6s were 4 speed autos.

    Australia is down to approx 10% Import duty, which isn’t enough to explain why IS250s, M3 are the price they are, except they are priced at what the market will bear….

    Sales Tax etc applies to all passenger cars equally, until you cross the Luxury Car Tax threshold of approx $57000.

    The fact is the M3 & the IS250 (now there’s 2 cars that’ll never be “cross-shopped”; not talking about the IS-F) could easily be priced way cheaper than they are.

    Cars in the UK & many Euro markets seem to be far more expensive than in the US, although not quite as expensve as here.

    New Golf prices in Oz & th UK are very similar.

    Besides, if people want to pay more for a perception that an imported car is better, then our Gov’t is well within it’s rights to tax those buyers to support local jobs.

    I’m sure as hell taxed heavily to support the rights of people wanting to have several children that they obviously can’t afford to support on their own.

  • Dan

    Alright, off you go mr bank teller. You say one thing, then you say another. Not clear mate. Just make sure you lend the customers money, not just give it away alrighty?

  • JasonP

    He doesn’t really understand what a Mortgage Broker does, hey Golfy? :-)

    How can an Accountant slag off someone elses’ job?

  • Golfschwein

    Search me, jasonP. Small man syndrome?

  • JasonP

    Solidarity, Golfy my Brother.

    Got to write some more today, then might go for a blast in the VE V8.

    Life is good. :-)

  • Dan

    That was like an EPIC backpedal you did there Golfschwein. Seriously. First post you say one thing, second you say another.

    And the teller comment was in response to your name calling comment. I know what a mortgage broker does. One week TAFE course and you’re set to go lol!

  • Mike

    I made myself clear, Moron. Must go now. Very busy writing successful mortgages!

    TOOL

  • Dan

    Golfschwein/JasonP/Mike (same tool obviously), go write your “successful mortgages” then haha. What a joke! You are very busy indeed, supposedly visiting clients writing “successful mortgages” yet still having time to post on CA. Clown!

  • Chris

    Does anyone remember what this story was about as I have just read 95 comments and most of it seems to be about people attacking one another not discussing this vehicle.
    If you wont to continue this rubbish please do it elsewhere as I am sure alot of us are sick of all name calling stuff

  • EOTC

    Chris, it makes no difference when you pull them up for it. They just continue with the diatribe, it’s pathetic.

  • Phill
  • Dan

    Phill, no offence, but that is just another forum, and some guy on there merely states that he “believes that toyota’s 4age is supposed to be related to the ford/cosworth bda”. I thought you actually had some proof, and not some anonymous person’s opinion on some obscure public forum…

  • Tim

    QUOTE BM:

    “Its a muscle car people are buying here”

    Yeah, clueless bogans.

  • Dan

    LOL Tim!

    I’ve heard of a Holden dealer giving away blue wife beaters, king gee stubbies, double pluggers and a pack of winnie blues to their customers, as opposed to floor mats and weather shields etc.

  • Bavarian Missile (.)(.)

    Tim thats your opinion only,was that necessary ?

    So your saying ALL people that drive HSV and FPV are bogans !

    What exactly is a bogan Tim ?

  • Phill

    Tim and Dan you should have your own show “TOOL TIME”If you want more proof Dan jump on a plane to England.

  • Dan

    Phill, get back on google and find me proof to those wild claims you posted above, please.

    Bavaria, go to this educational site:

    http://www.bogan.com.au

    You’ll get enlightened. Tim is quite right. Bogans have a certain car of choice :)

  • JEKYL & HYDE

    DAN,

    was that dealership next to the toyota dealer who was offering the free cardigan,slippers,and lawn bowl package…

  • Marcus

    Damn I love the R8′s

  • Dan

    Hmmm, haven’t heard of that one… Well, at least you can have an intelliegnt conversation with the cardigan wearing person, than a bogan lol!

  • Phill

    Dan Check this websitehttp://www.travel.com.au/international-airfares/cheap-flights-to-europe you can by tickets to the UK there.

  • Phill

    Dan – put your teeth back in son

  • Phill

    Your dribbiling on the floor

  • Bavarian Missile (.)(.)

    I know of plenty of accountants,doctors,dentist,lawyers,and BIG business owners that drive FPVs for a fact,sorry Tim they dont qualify in the definition of Bogan I think you need to appoligise as some motoring jernos also drive them,perhaps even on this site .

    http://www.bogan.com.au/definition/index.php

  • Dan

    Bavaria, no doubt all sorts of demographic will drive one. The fact remains, it is a car of choice for Bogans. Doesn’t of course mean that all buyers are bogans, however it means that vast majority are bogans. Or put it another way, most bogans will buy one of those. Hope that’s clear enough for you :P

    Phill, I’ve lived in Europe. What’s your point? I’ve been waiting for half a day for you to prove your wild claim. You still haven’t delivered!

  • nobody

    Heard some Holden dealers are willing to give this drive away for ~61k, some less – even to around the low 50′s. Too bad I don’t have that kinda money to blow on a car.

  • Bavarian Missile (.)(.)

    More opinions not facts Phil,dont engage him ! I gave up weeks ago !

    I get more sense from a 9 year old!

  • Dan

    Bavaria, he makes a statement, and is unable to back it up. Pathetic!

  • http://integra holstein hore ).( ).(

    More a person with small appendage , could be a dentist or bogan seeking extension of ego ,thus prefer capacity over quality , shouting out ” LOOK AT ME IAM LOUD BRASH UNCOUTHED YOBBO DRIVING A TARTED UP TAXI “

  • Dan

    LOL! That too Holstein! :)

  • The Realist

    Sorry, for $70K I’ll spend my money elsewhere – plenty of new or used Euro cars for that money.

    And some of you need to drive the C63 AMG – nothing in Oz I’ve seen can match the noise that thing makes!!

  • Golfschwein

    I agree it’s a nice car, and there wouldn’t be too many people who’d deny themselves a drive of one. The badges denoting the kilowatt count are silly. Nothing dates faster than a kilowatts badge.

  • Wheelnut

    I agree Tim; I like the tail lights as well mainly because they help distinguish the car a bit more from the SS Commodore on which the Clubbie is based. However I believe the car would look better if it had the Airdam that the
    W-427 has.

    As for the interior sure it may be a bit outdated but there are also a number of Euros that cost twice as much and have interiors that are just as out-dated or tacky looking as the Clubbie – however I agree that the seats aren’t very supportive [yet the car was designed with Americans in mind] the Performance seats from the VT Clubbie are better.

    And whoever it was that said Falcodores are only sold locally – you’re forgetting about the Pontiac G8 [US] the Vauxhall VX-R8 [UK]and the Chevrolet Caprice [ME] which are re-badged Holden Commodores/Statesmans and receiving rave revies from journos and car enthusiasts alike

    Eitherway Doesn’t really matter what you think – ever increasing record sales of Both HSVs and FPVs proves that there are a considerable number of Aussies who love the look and the sound of a traditional Performance Sedan/Ute

  • Shak

    Wheelnut u r correct and i second ur motion. The falcon has better interiors and tranny, but the commodore has better engine drive and looks killer. The fact is Holden is loving their product regardless of what the home market says because their main markets are the middle east and the US. Ford on the other hand have to rely on local sales to shift Falcons. The bottom line their both Aussie and we should support both of them although i prefer the Clubby.

  • zero

    Golfschwein -you’re so right!
    if i would buy a v8, the c63 anytime
    i know guys about the price but that thing sounds !@#$%!

  • Dan

    Their main market is where? Middle east and US? Didn’t they stop selling the commodore in the US altogether? And aren’t the aussie sales a lot higher than middle east sales?

    So since it is a ‘global’ car, that’s even less of an excuse for its quality shortcomings!

  • Bavarian Missile (.)(.)

    Yeah agree Zero the announcement of grunt on a car has always been a w a n k point I thought . Make them guess I say !

  • Tim

    C’mon guys, it was a little stereotypical jab – don’t get offended about it. But it is 80% true, in 10 years time you will see 2009 R8′s driven by the current bogans sons/daughters. Hey, it happens generation after generation…another lowered VT with fully sik rims.

    Shock, horror though! I wanted one of these things a few months ago because of the attractice price tag and all the powahhh – but then I grew out of it.

    G’night folks!

  • Wheelnut

    Tim – in your original comment you were implying that your average “Bogan” would be able to go down to their local Holden HSV dealer Tomorrow and Buy a Maloo Clubsport or GTS BRAND NEW…. NOT in 10 Years time.

    Mind you even then; there would still be some Bogans who probably wouldn’t be able to afford an HSV given that some HSVs like the VL Walkinshaw SS Group A for example being sold for between $90-120K thats $30-40K more than what they were Brand New 20 years ago.. same applies to FPVs

  • Bavarian Missile (.)(.)

    Tim its still not 80% true, your comment was generalising on your own opinion not fact,stirring the pot about bogans driving this stuff off course will hit a nerve .I thought you were above the that and left it too someone else that seems to relish in s h i t stirring on this site ………

    I for one know that in the local FPV and Tickford clubs here in the West people buy the older model to collect not cause they are generally bogans or for their kids.I personally know one guy that has 4 GTs 3 Tickford products and 1 BF GT-P ,why cause hes an enthusiast not a bogan !

    Their daily drivers are normally not FPVs but Japan eco boxes !

    So out of interest if you didnt buy a HSV or FPV Tim what did you buy ?

  • luvalambi

    I Think tis proves one point people, that Aussies are PASSONATE! Doesnt matter what car you drive or what car feels the best it always comes down to the individual! I remember the days when my old man took me fishing in his EH Holden , now i can tell you i had no idea at 12 years old the difference between a four cylinder and a six cylinder but the best part was the smell of the interior ! You know that smell of a bench seat and dash board that has been sitting in the sun all arvo or the fact he had to pull the choke out to get the thing started at 5am in the morning before we went fishing, ! and he would sit there for five minutes while the car warmed up???? I to this day still wait for a minute or two before driving off (weird i know) force of habit. He now owns an AP6 Valient and he put bucket seats in the damn thing and when i told him off he said ” But i prefer bucket seats” then it all hit home ! Live for today ….lIVE FOR YOUR CAR AND MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL , LIVE….

  • Dan

    Wheelnut said – “Mind you even then; there would still be some Bogans who probably wouldn’t be able to afford an HSV given that some HSVs like the VL Walkinshaw SS Group A for example being sold for between $90-120K thats $30-40K more than what they were Brand New 20 years ago.. same applies to FPVs”

    Ummm, they represent like 0.00001% of all HSVs ever produced. Even the poorest bogans will be able to buy the other 99.99999% of 10 yr olf HSVs. Thought I’d correct you there mate :)

    Wheelnut said – “you were implying that your average “Bogan” would be able to go down to their local Holden HSV dealer Tomorrow and Buy a Maloo Clubsport or GTS BRAND NEW…. NOT in 10 Years time.”

    There are bogans who can afford them both new and old. Ever heard of the term cashed up bogan? Then there’s some who live in a homeswest house, yet spend all their money on a new HSV. Met few of those personally too.

    Bavaria, not all of these cars are bought by bogans. But a large percentage is. It’s the sort of a car that all bogans aspire to own. Seeing one driving on the street, one can make a fair assumption that it is a high chance that a bogan is driving it. Call it a stereotype, but there’s a reason for that.

  • Mick

    Well that’s another comments section of a Holden/Ford/Toyota article headed for s**t creek!
    The comments section is supposed to be to put forward your point of view about a car, not spend 100 posts having an argument between each other!
    CA you guys need to do something to stop every article becoming an argument between the same few people!

  • luvalambi

    Dan i grew up out west in place called Braybrook? Not sure if your from Victoria or not but i tell you now in those days if you didnt have a monaro with a shaker on top or an SLR then you were’rt hip? Basically you didnt exist ha ! Nowadays nothing has really changed in 23 years and the bogans you mention are the ones who hold their manhood proud and love to feel a car that ROAAAAARRSSSS ! Rather than something that tinkers ! Abit like a Corolla or maybe a Sportivo or whatever that stupid name is ??

  • Tim

    Thanks for the comment Dan, thats what I wanted to say. Call it stereotypical, but a bogan with 6 kids drinking VB really really wants an R8 because its the best car ever (for them anyway). But really, I didn’t say it to insult anyone – just a little jab at a semi-true fact, sorry if anyone got offended. Oh and I find the old HSV’s/Monaroes/Tickfords/Fords as really good muscle cars – true enthusiasts own them. These days, the ‘muscle car’ thing is trying too hard with the over sized bodykits and ‘aggressive styling’…aka – this R8.

    BM, instead I bought a Subaru Liberty 3.0R-B. Not the latest one with the ugly fish grill on the back bumper but the 2007/early 08 model. Sure its definately not the fastest thing around (7 secs to 100km/h) but it is safe, as reliable as you can get, AWD and luxurious/comfortable for everyday driving and still has some in the tank for a good weekends thrashing with the 6spd manual. Love it!

  • follow europe

    it shows how the car building mentality of australian and american are very similar. when you build a car don’t worry about dynamics and handling. all you need to worry about is the amount of horsepower and torque. this is why american company are facing bankruptcy. i hope holden and ford don’t go down the same path……

  • Cupid Stunt

    Like the more sensible ones have said this is a decent value for performance gutsy Australian car. OK it’s dated in some respects but not so far off the league that makes it cr8p. It could be FWD then it would be cr8p.
    Dan get a life your neither clever, funny or entertaining!

  • Dan

    What gave you the false impression I was trying to be a smartass, funny or entertaining?

  • Golfschwein

    Interesting stats there, Dan, y’know, 0.00001% and all.

    Got anything to back it up? Come on, Dan. BACK IT UP, BOY! Show us the proof!

    heh heh, maybe you’re just expressing an opinion.

  • Bavarian Missile (.)(.)

    Yeah Tim I forgot you mentioned you had a Subbie……….great cars , doesnt make me a ricer for driving one though does it ;)

    Did you take an HSV for a run out of interest Tim ?

    Morning Golfie……….

  • Falcodore

    FE, have you been living in a cave for the past decade? The Commodore and Falcon are praised for their dynamic abilities. Go and actually read some articles about them.

  • Dan

    Golfschwein said – “Interesting stats there, Dan, y’know, 0.00001% and all. Got anything to back it up? Come on, Dan. BACK IT UP, BOY! Show us the proof! heh heh, maybe you’re just expressing an opinion.”

    Certainly. As you know I’m all about the facts. Opinions I tend to keep to myself.

    Total number of HSV’s produced to date is about 60,000, as per the HSV website:

    http://www.hsv.com.au/news/about.asp

    Total number of VL Group A HSVs produced is 750. It’s common knowledge, however since you are after references, here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holden_Special_Vehicles

    I might have exxagerated with the zeros for effect. After rounding it’s about 1%. WOW! The Walkinshaw is the only valuable HSV out there. None of the VN, VP, VR, VS, VT, VX, VY, VZ, nor VE have any sort of a collectible status. Hence aren’t worth much second hand, and won’t be in 20 years from now. Perhaps arguably the W427 might, but you would be merely speculating, as other than the VL, over the last 20 years, nothing that ever came out of HSV has become anything collectible. So that’s 1% of HSVs. What about the 99%? Well, those will be the cheapies avalaible for anyone on centrelink to buy… a fact I have elaborated on above. :)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holden_Special_Vehicles

    See, not hard to prove the facts. Still waiting on Phill though. He has some massive difficulties. Next time, consult with the truth, and not the fairies mate :)

  • Dan

    Falcodore said – “FE, have you been living in a cave for the past decade? The Commodore and Falcon are praised for their dynamic abilities. Go and actually read some articles about them.”

    Why do you think everyone calls them boats and barges. For their handling deficiencies ;)

  • Hummerbug

    Quote Dan- “Why do you think everyone calls them boats and barges. For their handling deficiencies” are you talking about the Aurion Dan??? ;o)

  • Dan

    What is the title of this article Hummerbug? What comment am I replying to? Put your glasses on pops and read again :)

  • Hummerbug

    Sorry Dan i thought if we were going to start on ” Boats & Barges” then The Toyota Aurion would be the first cab of the rank… Wouldnt it?… Glasses are on and the nails are out LOL

  • Dan

    You’re only trying to divert attention from the HMAS Commodore’s failings Hummerbug. No doubt the Aurion is a ship also, however as opposed to the HMAS Commodore, it’s honest and doesn’t deny it’s a boat. HMAS Commodore on the other hand wants you to believe it is a paper weight and doesn’t float on corners, which we all know is definately not true haha.

  • Hummerbug

    Haaaaaaaaaaaa HMAS commodore haaaa oh thats great :o )

  • Dan/Hummerbug

    I crack myself up sometimes!

  • Dan

    What the fark? That ^^^ wasn’t me!

  • Bret

    I just love smoking crack!

  • The Realist

    Wheelnut Says:
    March 31st, 2009 at 8:59 pm
    “As for the interior sure it may be a bit outdated but there are also a number of Euros that cost twice as much and have interiors that are just as out-dated or tacky looking as the Clubbie”

    Like what? BMW? MB? Audi? All of those are vastly superior.

    Which Euros are you referring to?

  • Bret

    Some euros aren’t that good, for example Vw, Renault, Peugeot, Citroen, Vauxhall, Opel, Skoda etc.

    No all euros should be considered as premium, as they’re just ordinary cars, like Holden is.

  • Falcodore

    Dan, i have actually driven a VE and i can tell you they do steer and handle very well, especially for such a big car.

    As for you saying that you only deal in facts, thats like a crack dealer saying he just sells a good time, it doesnt hurt anyone. COMPLETE BS!!!

  • Dan

    Falcodore, I have driven the VE countless of times as well. It doesn’t handle well, sorry. If anything, the Falcon handles significantly better than the VE. Has a better steering feel and so on. Historically the Falcon always had the upper hand in that department.

  • Devil666

    Dan, you said:

    “it’s honest and doesn’t deny it’s a boat.”

    That is a total load of BS. Have you not seen Toyota’s marketing campaigns? They (Toyota), very, very much deny Aurion is a boat.

    And it is.

  • Dan

    Last time I checked I didn’t see any ads denying Aurion being a boat. Most cars that size are boats haha.

  • Falcodore

    Dan, you must be the only person that thinks the holden doesnt handle well. Even Edmunds, who have a long term Pontiac G8 (SSV) test car in their fleet, find themselves constantly comparing its ride/handling/steering/power to the BMW 550i.

    Havent driven an FG Falcon yet but from what ive read it is the better car. Looks better too IMO.

  • The Realist

    Bret Says:
    April 1st, 2009 at 6:02 pm
    “Some euros aren’t that good, for example Vw, Renault, Peugeot, Citroen, Vauxhall, Opel, Skoda etc.”

    Wheelnut said the following:

    “As for the interior sure it may be a bit outdated but there are also a number of Euros that cost twice as much and have interiors that are just as out-dated or tacky looking as the Clubbie ”

    Cost twice as much? So we’re talking $130K to $150K – the Euro’s you mentioned don’t fall into that category. I only see BMW, MB, Audi and Jaguar.

    I’d love to know which cars from the four brands above have interiors as “out-dated” or “tacky” as the Clubsport!

  • Phill

    Dan – Since you lived in Europe you Know were to buy the tickets,or do your own googling fool.Anti spam word Toyota that means “Dan Buzz Off”

  • the fact

    whether you like it or not GM HOLDEN will shut the door sooner or later.so the australian government should not hand out any more money for them.this is a lesson for all other car markers in australia you cannot survive if you design your car only for fleet market and bad reputation on build quality .any wonder out of 10 commodores sold only 2 went to private buyers.sorry…if you not lift your game for so long then nobody to blame.

  • Dan

    Phill, you make a statement. And you can’t back it up. You fail! Why should I buy airplane tickets for? All I am asking you to do is to provide some credible proof to your wild claim. With a thing called the internet, I don’t have to fly to Europe to see the proof you apparently have over there. Go on. Post it here. Of course you won’t. You made up some rubbish which cannot be proven. You fail Phill.

    Falcodore, I’m not saying Commodore doesn’t handle well for its size. It may indeed handle well for a boat. But overall it is not a well handling car. No muscle cars are. They’re good for straight line, that’s it! Give it some tight twisties, and a smaller better handling car with much less power will beat it!

  • Phill

    Dan – Toyota coped the dba racing engine in 1970,not 59 (I stand corrected) and that became there 4cyl hero engine in there sprinter,and your still a tool,and just go back to Europe anyway,and stay there.

  • Dan

    Phill, this is your tenth post after your wild claim, with still no proof, so no, you don’t stand corrected until you actually prove it. I’ve been waiting for second day now for you to produce something of credible nature to support it. Which further convinced me that what you have said is just a wild claim. Not true. You made it up. In your frustration all you can come up with is a pathetic attempt of an insult. I’m still waiting Phill…

  • Bret

    The Realist, Dan is playing sillies again and using OTHERS NAMES, as well as his own many alieases.
    I never made any comment regarding any Euros.

    I suspect that he’s resorted to that because most are now just ignoring this little twerp’s BS rants.

  • Falcodore

    So the BMW handles like a boat to does it Dan, because if you actually read my comment PROPERLY you would see that is what they are comparing the G8 too!And stop trying to pass off YOUR OPINION as fact. If you back-pedal a bit faster you might just actually realise the facts.

  • Dan

    Falcodore, I don’t know why you are bringing BMW into this. The Commodore is a boat, always has been, and most likely always will be. End of story :)

    Bret, are you back on crack again this morning? Are you seeing things, hallucinating, or thinking someone is out to get you? Seek help mate, seriously!

  • Falcodore

    Dan, you did read my comment about Edmunds comparing the G8 to the Bmw 550 did you not?

    Go and read something other than a Lexus brochure for a change and stop ignoring the facts.

  • Dan

    What the heck has this got to do with Lexus?? There’s HEAPS more better handling cars than the 550 too. And many more better handling than the R8. On a scale of good handling cars, the R8 will be sitting in a very average or below average spot. They’re good for going in straight line, that’s it!

  • Bavarian Missile

    Falcodore ,save your forehead and keyboard its his opinion hun not fact,we all know that!

  • Dan

    I’d kick this R8′s ass in my 180SX on a track, easy. This R8 is a whale!

  • Tim

    Yes, the R8 is a whale…it can go straight very well – but corners nahhhh. The family Commodore though is a good stearer and you can’t deny that. The R8 on the other hand, with its performance credentials and when compared to other sports cars is a whale. I think thats what Dan was trying to say.

    R8 and the Commodore Omega are different cars.

  • Dan

    That’s right Tim. The R8 will easily outmanouver a Kia obviously. It will have a challenge out-manouvering most performance vehicles though. Sorry for the confusion Falcodore.

  • naD

    I just came back from living overseas(Europe)so I went to buy an large aussie 4door sports sedan,after all Australia is the home of the affordable performance sedan,so I bought a new camry sportivo,can’t wait to line on of these clubsports up at the lights.

  • HAL

    NaD, you’re taking the p.ss right?

  • Rick

    Poor Dan, just likes the foreign stuff, is quite willing to buy a Badge for $70,000 with the performance of a Mazda 3.

    Should read some magazines where professionals test these things the VE and FG more than hold their own when it comes to dynamics.

    By the way those of you who read the latest Wheels and saw the comparo between the HSV and FPV should note how the F6 is soundly beaten by the GTS around Calder Park and even the much heavier FPV GT beat it. 0-100 and standing 400m also went the GTS’s way. The f6 wins the 80-120 and 120-160 times though. Seems the Turbo is hard to drive quickly.

  • naD

    No IM serious Hal,before i came back i did research on the net to find proof that the Clubsport could beat a camry sportivo and I couldn’t find any so thats why i picked the sportivo,I am a Toyota Fan anyway,so bring it on Bogans

  • HAL

    Ok, now I know you’re taking the p.ss. Too funny……

  • Dan

    NaD, lay off the crackpipe! Or I’ll beat your sportivo with my skateboard! :)

    Rick, I’ve come to realise foreign is better than local. As much as I’d like to support local, being patriotic and all, I also dont want to feel short changed with the stuff I buy.

  • naD

    Dan – I checked on the net,my sportivo would beat your skateboard…go to http://www.imakelovetomytoyota.com theres a dan on that forum is it you.

  • Dan

    You’d only beat my skateboard in your sportivo if I wasn’t riding it. I’m sure you are the forum administrator and sole founder of that site NaD. Does membership come with complimentary crack? You seem to be fully high on it at the moment…

  • Andrew M

    NaD,
    I would pull 4 leads off of the R8, and put diesel in the tank and still give your sportivo a spank.

    ^^And i can obviously ryme whilst doing it ha ha ha

  • naD

    Dan – My friend,my sportivo would beat your skateboard with you on it,in a freestyle contest in a skatebowl(weres the hostility coming from I feel like your brother) and sorry i thought that was you on that other forum. Andrew See when you have been around as long as I have you learn things about cars,I know Toyota has a formula 1 team,Clubsport doesn’t have a formula one team does it,So camry to beat clubsport.Its all to do with Passion Toyota make the sportest cars around.

  • Falcodore

    whats nad spelt backwards? Think we know who the dan is on the toyota lovers site

    Nad, a base model Mazda6 will out-perform a camry sloppyjo, so i dont think the Clubsport will have much trouble…or dans skateboard for that matter.

    Lay off the drugs old man, they’re turnin whats left of your brains to mush ;)

  • Dan

    Sigh… keep puffing on that crack pipe NaD, keep puffing…

  • Andrew M

    Pehaps “NaD” is the “Dan” on this site talking to himself????

  • Dan

    Perhaps Andrew M is also smoking crack at the moment. Crikey, looks like an epidemic!

  • Bavarian Missile

    Nad is a hair removal cream for women .It also maybe a feral dog…….he owns a Sportivo….

  • Falcodore

    Was just thinking the same thing BM

  • Golfschwein

    “Toyota make the sportest cars around.”

    Sportest…for the smuttest peepul.

  • Golfschwein

    Oh, hi all. NAD is also a hi-fi brand. Nyuk nyuk.

  • Dan

    Golfschwein – “Sportest…for the smuttest peepul.”

    Translation from bogan talk: Sportiest… for the smartest people.

  • Golfschwein

    Dan, you should’ve been a detective!

  • Bavarian Missile

    Quote ““Toyota make the sportest cars around.”” oh say the ricers Golfy…………

  • Dan

    Don’t see too many riced up toyotas. I see lots of riced up barinas and lancers and so on though.

    BY the way, you finally decided to remove those tits from you sig bavaria?

  • Falcodore

    I see riced up toyotas Dan, with their ugly body kits n all. They’re called sportivo (sloppyjo) ;)

  • Golfschwein

    Spotty vovo.

  • Falcodore

    Golfy, dont degrade an iconic aussie biscuit like that :)

  • Andrew M

    Golfie,
    i took a sip of softdrink just as i scrolled down to your comment. it nearly came back through my nose.
    Classic!!!!! ha ha ha ha

    Well followed up Falcadore!!!

    Dan,
    Lighten up dude. Perhaps you need a turn of the crack pipe????

  • Wheelnut

    I wonder if ;when Nad is in his sportivo and trying to outrun any other car on the road – let alone an R8 Clubbie if he says to himself “Go Nads Go Nads Go Nads”…. I mean the guy sure sounds like a Dick

  • Dan

    Andrew M said – “Dan, Lighten up dude. Perhaps you need a turn of the crack pipe????”

    Mate, I’m fully chilled out :) But the guy is insulting my skateboard!!

  • Phill

    Dan – I had a look and found that at the sites i looked at(eight of them)all beleived that it was a copy,only one said it wasn’t,(Japanses car fan I denial)none were offical manufactures sites(Im sure Toyota would be proud to tell the world that they copied an engine design)read between the lines.Let me tell you about aussie cars and aussies car culture,there built to travel long distances,say Sydney to Brisbane,Melboune to Adelaide not for short commutes or Quick drives throuht a mountain pass like your 180.If you drove Brsbane to Sydney in a Clubsport or GT,you would arrive much relaxed then if you took a small high revving Japanese sports car,that said if I were driving around the mountian roads of japan there no way I would pick a Large 4 door sedan weather if from Australia,Europe or the USA.This is why our cars are the way they are.When people who call themselfs Austrilan and a car enthusist,then use the word bogan,to me are not very aussie,seems they don’t understand there own countrys car culture.Heres a Thought could the reason large car sales are in decline because in general less people take those long trips these days compered to 30 years ago?and just need a short trip and commute car.

  • Rick

    Well Dan I’ve never felt short changed buying local, but I would feel short changed paying top dollar for poor performance and greater maintenance costs.

    I acknowledge that the high end Euro’s and most Japanese cars may be screwed together a bit nicer especially inside a vehicle but I don’t think that makes them stronger or necessarily a better buy, there are so many aspects to a car and build quality is just one component.

    Still there is a stigma associated with buying local, that is undeserved, but fostered by many anti Ford/Holden proponents, but I don’t care, for my needs the local stuff is just great!

  • Dan

    Phill said – “I had a look and found that at the sites i looked at(eight of them)all beleived that it was a copy”

    So… in other words, still no proof. Were they even reputable sites at all? Or just forums like the previous one. Often I come across utter crap on the internet, and let’s face it, any muppet can write the most ridiculous statements on their own websites or forums. If you can’t find any reputable source to confirm your theory, then I’m sorry to say, but it ain’t true.

    But I totally understand your point about long drives and all. I can think of plenty other cars, that aren’t local that could do the job just as well, and you’d be just as relaxed at the en dof the journey. Even smaller cars can get you over long distances in equal if not better comfort, although if there’s people in the back seat it can be a problem. HAving said that, I would take my 180SX on any long drives, harness and roll cage don’t make much for a comfortable drive haha.

    All depends on what you want Rick. For 70 odd K, I’d be after something that has abit of refinement in it. Other than the engine and perfomance, sitting in this car feels like you are getting yout 29,990 omega interior… For a daily I guess it’s not a bad compromise, personally though I prefer to have a nicer daily, and a weekend car with balls to thrash around on the weekend. :)

  • Dan

    Oops, I meant to say “I wouldn’t take the 180SX on a long drive”

  • J

    Dan, seriously dude get off of here and get a job, get some realworld experience and knowledge.

    Otherwise mate, just “get a life”.

  • Dan

    Do you actually have anything intelligent to say J?

  • http://TOLLDNATA.COM.AU SKYSTAR AIRPORT SERVICES AUSTRALIA NOW TOLL DNATA

    I like this car, this is an inteligent car, i am passionate about many things including Saftety eqipment used at airports, and when i was searching for the latest in safety vest technolagy this car took my eye, maybe we can use it as a chase car for the jets as they land at Perth airport. Oh and Lloyd I am still waiting for you in the carpark. This car is cool!

  • Devil’s Advocate

    The Salesman says “You just can not get any more Aussie than owning a Holden with a big V8 meat and potatoes, carton of beer and don’t look at me because I will punch you in the face mate, car.”

    That is funny considering that the VE Commodore has the least amount of Australian made content (or at least used to) of all the Australian built cars, Toyotas included. Even funnier is the fact that the main drawcard of the car, the “Aussie” V8, arrives pre-built in a crate from overseas, just like the transmissions etc. We are not in Kansas anymore Toto….

    On another note, just because the local cars are big, doesn’t always mean they are the most comfortable over long trips. The other day I had to drive the work Falcon from Townsville to Cairns and by the time I got there, my back was killing me. The HUGE transmission tunnel forces your legs to the side and prevents you from sitting square on to the wheel. The lack of foot rest also makes it worse. For information I am only 174cm tall so I would hate to see how a tall person goes in it because I felt cramped and severly restricted for drivers seat leg room. I have NEVER had problems like that driving interstate etc in our Mazda 6. So much more front seat leg room.

  • Wheelnut

    Devisl Advocate – Your back may have been killing you however that could simply mean that you didn’t have the seat or the steering wheel adjusted properly in a postion that would have been more “ergonomic” for your body.

    Because depending on what model Falcon or Commodore you are in the seats; particularly the drivers seats are fully adjustable fore and aft up and down seat angle lumbar supports etc.. Not to mention the steering wheel with its height and reach.

    My Cousin is approximately 6 foot 4 and he has a VE Calais drives from Sydney to Wollongong/Lithgow regularly and hasn’t had any back problems

  • Devil’s Advocate

    Sorry wheelnut, but it was killing me due to not being able to straigten my legs properly, not in the straight knees sense either. I am also not that stupid and do know how to adjust the wheel/seat/lumbar supports etc. The seat/wheel etc was adjusted every which way to try and compensate, but the transmission tunnel intrudes so much that you can’t align your legs correctly with the rest of your body, hence causing extra stess on your lower back to try and compensate for the “un-natural”, read incorrect alignment. It forces you to angle your legs to the right which is NOT ergonomic, especially to someone who is currently suffering from tight ITBs. I am sure I wouldn’t be the only one. Even my “healthy” work collegue who drove some of the way was complaining about similar problems and couln’t wait to get out of the car. All the adjustments in the world can not make up for a lack of a left foot rest and a transmission tunnel intruding so far into the footwell. Try sitting in your favorite arm chair for a few hours with your legs angled only to one side and see how comfortable it is.

    When I got back home and jumped into the 6, I could move my left leg much further to the left and rest it on, shock horror, a footrest! The difference to the feeling in my lower back was immediately noticible and made it feel like I could point it towards Cairns and drive there immediately without any discomfort.

    Oh BTW, I was talking about the Falcon only and NOT the Commodore. I was just providing an alternative theory that just because a car is big, it doesn’t always mean it is comfortable. Just like you can’t say all small car are uncomfortable! For information the work Commodores I have driven over long distances don’t give me any trouble at all as the transmission tunnel doesn’t intrude as much as the Falcon… :-)

  • Bavarian Missile (.)(.)

    Must be the seats though Devil ,what model Falcon where you in ?

    Im 5’8, similar height to you and have driven a BF AND BA GT long distances here in the West and havent felt sore after.

    Perhaps hit your work up for a Grand Tourer next time or take the Mazda 6 ;)

  • Wheelnut

    Devil – In relation to the seating position of the driver in both the Falcon and the Commodore; some Motoring Journalists have said that you feel like you are sitting ON the Falcon whereas you feel as though you are sitting IN the Commodore.. which can make you feel more comfortable in the car

    However; they have also said when going into a corner at reasonable speed the Falcon seats tend to give you more lateral support and hold you in place more.

  • Devil’s Advocate

    It was a BF Futura. The shape of the seat was actually quite good with good support, shape and range of adjustment, it was just the fact that my legs were splayed to the right due to the transmission tunnel preventing me from moving my left leg to the left of how my body was aligned in the seat. I can do this in the 6/Commodore etc which helps reduce the tension in my ITB. There is also minimal space in the footwell between the brake pedal and the transmission tunnel limiting where you can place your left foot. Somehow I don’t think Ford have a smaller transmission tunnel in the GT Falcon so I don’t think that would be any different for me. I guess the Falcon doesn’t suit my body!!! I wonder if the FG is any different… LOL. :-)

  • Hayzel

    Firstly J and Phil are low IQ idiots…goes to show how dumb and obnoxious fans of this car are, damn bogans. This is what happened when you drop out of school after year 9……assuming that you both went to high school.

    One fact that really uncovers the truth of this R8 as a sad piece of engineering is the fuel consumption. Premium car brands like BMW, AUDI, Mercedes, etc keep on extracting more and more power from their engines while reducing fuel consumptions, even hondas!!!

    Holden extract more power from their engines while increasing fuel consumptions…..where is the precision in that. This is pathetic realizing how global warming is becoming more rampant and while car manufacturers starting to produce green cars…holden came up with this….

    I’m sure everyone still remembers how nissan skylines beat the shit out of holden and ford in V8 supercars banning them after a while…This goes to show how fans of this car really try to shut their eyes on alternatives and tenaciously defend the brand to death. Stupid if you ask me.

    Then again if you don’t really care about quality and reliability caring only about performance..then go ahead buy it. I turn more heads with my nissan 350Z, get more prestige with lexus IS250, BMW 3 series and Audi A4 while getting all the reliability and supreme qualities of motoring.

    Let’s imagine that we have meet the parents moment. I turn up in my AUDI and a bogan turn up in his HSV, hmmm I wonder which one of us will get the daddy attention and ended up marrying the daughter.

  • Shibu Jacob

    The way its going nothing will remain true ozzy,from holden to hungry jacks everything is owned by US companies.Sad but a reality.Soon the chinese will be buying over companies,from what you read in finance news.The car does have good specs but the exterior leaves a lot to be desired.Who does the designs?

  • Jen

    Hmmm…just finished reading the comments here, made me wonder just how many of you own or at the very least driven the HSV GTS 40th Anniversary Model. Well I do own one, my first actually, its awesome car, my dream car. I’ve had diehard Ford people tell me they love it.The ones that dont agree, I believe are just plan and simply jealous!! I dont care about all your engine, gearbox, badging crap. Bogans we made be, go ahead call us want you want if it makes you feel better, then you can eat my dust!!!
    P.S. Oh… by the way, this Bogan paid cash !! gee a Bogan with money, what next!!! OMG

  • feageagefeaga

    To Tim, Dan, and Holstein Hore: F_ck off morons, before you get your head kicked in.

  • Duane

    Hi there has anyone out there had any problems with the rear suspension on the E seris I have an GTS 2008 And it scrubs tyers out on the back and it’s at max toe ajustment and HSV keep saying the is OK. I have to say I’m very pissed off.

  • gramouna

    Paul Maric is not a good car reviewer. He went to Geelong High and struggled to give car advice and it still looks likes nothing has changed. He only says what suits himself. He knows that Ford have always been ugly looking cars and will never change.