After 77 years GM no longer No1
January 22, 2009 by David Twomey
With a 10.8 per cent downturn in worldwide sales last year General Motors has had to admit that after 77 years it can no longer claim to be the world’s largest car maker.
In an admission that will gladden some and bring despondency to others the huge US car maker said its worldwide sales fell to 8.36 million units in 2008, putting it about 616,000 units behind the 8.97 million units reported yesterday by Toyota Motor Corporation.
The 2008 results cap an advance by Toyota that has seen the Japanese car maker overcome a three million-unit deficit since the start of the decade, fuelled in large part by gains in the United States.
Last year, both companies posted sales declines, including huge ones in the US market.
GM spokesman, John McDonald, said that in future GM would describe itself as “one of the world’s largest automakers.”
GM Chief Operating Officer Fritz Henderson said that retaining the title wasn’t “terribly important,” to him. He said that it was more critical that GM, which hasn’t posted a profit since 2004 and has tapped US$4 billion in government loans to pay its bills, was strong financially.
Toyota said its sales across the group fell four per cent in 2008, dragged down by sharp declines in North America, Europe and Japan.
Don Esmond, senior vice president of Toyota Motor Sales USA, said the title means little to him, especially in a year that saw both companies losing sales.
GM fell 21.1 per cent in North America, the biggest of its four sales regions, and 6.5 per cent in its number two market, Europe.
The company gained 3.2 per cent in its Latin America, Africa, Middle East region, for a fifth straight record, and 2.7 per cent in the Asia-Pacific territory, which includes Australia.
No tags for this post.
*****PRIMO!*****
Not by a small amount either!
We all knew this was going to happen just a matter of when.
Serves GM right for not making a Prius type [I know, its coming]
“BigT = Biggest & Best!”
Cheers
F-0
Big T? Is that the big T in mighT HSV?
FFS lets not start another GM vs Toyota match
Its getting tired… very tired
Steady Holden Fans, here they come.
Just a quick point, if GM have been No.1 for 77 years & are crap, & if toyota are so good, why has it taken 77 years to beat GM, & then why is being No. 1 so important.
Apparently you can be crap & be No. 1, but wonderful, brown emmission don’t stink, & still take three quarters of a century to overtake the biggest.
Another point
This has only happened during one of the most challenging financial downturns since the Great Depression, not in boom times, toyota has announced Billion dollar losses (yes, yes, less than the Big Three), & wouldn’t it really be better to be No.2, but making money?
Toyota’s crap. I’d buy a Honda over a Toyota anyday! :-)
If the US government did not provide a multi-billion dollar bailout loan to GM, the company would already have gone into insolvency and become history. GM would no longer exist without US taxpayer money. Even so, GM has enough cash with that bailout, to last until Easter 2009, when it will need another bailout, or cease to exist.
It won’t last, plenty of companies are gunning for No. 1, such as Volkswagen Group and Hyundai.
Tony,
All Gov’ts bail out their own industries.
Bailouts even happen from other car companies.
Nissan was bailed out by Renault.
Mazda, back in the day, was bailed out by Ford.
Isuzu has previously needed GM money.
Mitusishi was bailed out by Daimler Benz (Mercedes parent company).
Also, for decades the japanese gov’t has manipulated their currency against the US Dollar, to make their exports more competitive, & the japanese banks were complicit.
That means Japan, at a financial & gov’t level, changed conditions & the rules to advantage their car exports over every other countrys’ car exports.
The US bailout with cash, the Japanese bailout with import laws & currency manipulation, & Australia even does it a little with cash incentives.
Don’t forget for decades it was so hard to get permission to import foreign cars into Japan, that most either gave up, or accepted that the volumes would be minimal.
Think GM, VW, Ford, etc, etc.
G.M. No 1 ah,
number one at what? car sales don’t guarentee success.i saw the gm bailout of the u.s. news the other day.guess what,they(the g.m. exect’s) flew in on their lear jets.what’s wrong with this picture people….
8.97 million Customers can not be wrong. Toyota have worked hard to get the No1 spot.
well done toyota all those customers know what is the best brand in the world! OH WHAT A FEELING!!!!!!!!
Well I’d have to say a weak congrats to Toyota for getting the number 1 spot. Mind you its all relative really isn’t it. GM is made up of lots of other car companies that’s it bought over the years, Chev, Pontiac, Holden, Daewoo, Opel, etc. Whereas Toyota are largely on their own, producing “luxo” versions under the Lexus badge.
Mind you, if I was Joe Blogs (which I am) I wouldn’t buy a Toyota or a GM product. I want something that gives a smile on the dial while driving (which rules out Toyota products) while having something that is reliable and well built across the board (which rules out GM’s).
Unfortunately, there is a problem, there isn’t allot out there that can do both, and most of cars that claim to have the passion and reliability cost an arm, leg, spine, spleen etc.
So what to do?
Buy from the smaller makers, who have to listen to us consumers or go under. “Number 1 means very little”… we hear ya mate!
hmm.. another “hit booster” article by car advice… would you expect any less??
well done toyota you worked hard! but its not hard to be number 1 when you have the best range,best reliability,best resale value,best dealer network,best backup and the best serviceing plan!well done no one will come near you for years to come!
Salesman,
Does that make 8.36 million GM customers wrong then?
I’m sure there’s people who swear the’ll never buy another GM or toyota product, or maybe never buy a Kia in the first place.
They’re potentially all wrong.
You do your research, & you buy the best thing that suits your needs for aprice you can live with.
I know a few who’d never buy a High & Dry, now very happy in their new i30s.
JasonP,
No they are not wrong. Toyota is not any better or worse then anything GM produces. It is clear from the numbers they are better at running a business.
Hard to argue, at least for the moment.
“wouldn’t it really be better to be No.2, but making money?” – JP
The point is Toyota has been making billions on its way to becoming No.1, GM has been losing billions on its way to becoming No. 2.
“toyota has announced Billion dollar losses (yes, yes, less than the Big Three)”- JP
WTF are you on about, so if Toyota reports losses of 2 billion and GM, reports losses of 15 Billion which company would you rather own shares in? If Toyota had remained as No. 2 they would still be reporting a 2 billion dollar loss this year, its the market, GM would still be reporting a 15 billion dollar loss as they are inept.
AND NO, DON’T ARGUE, THIS ISN’T ABOUT CARS, ITS ABOUT MANAGEMENT.
Max,
You may have glossed over the point I was making.
The point is, being No.1 doesn’t really mean anything.
GM has been No.1 for 77 years, & others think they make crap cars, lose billions, & take Gov’t handouts.
So being No.1 shouldn’t be the be all & end all.
But you’re absolutely right, if toyota were still No.2, they still would have lost money.
I’m not arguing the point that toyota is being run better than GM at the moment.
However, if you talk to knowledgable Honda Fans, they’ll tell you toyota is a big, unwieldly monolith, that always plays the boring card.
Audi will tell you that about Mercedes, too.
There would be some truth in this, but it wouldn’t be definitive.
I wrote this elsewhere when I read the same story but one has to ask a very simple business question.
“What is the value of being number 1????”
GM number one global vehicle manufacturer for 77 years straight and now (due to a lot of factors mind) struggling financially globally.
Toyota 71 years of turning profit (again due to alot of factors) records it’s first / poorest trading year dollar wise but can claim to be the number one global vehicle manufacturer.
Am I the only one to see a problem with this pisture??
VWAG has been plodding along not worrying about anyone else just making sure it’s products are up to the minute and where the market really wants them, and has had either a steady or increased market and returned unfathomable share market growth in a dead market..
Who is right???????
Frontman,
Who is right?
A car company that builds exciting “gotta have one” cars in various categories, built well, makes money doing so, & sells them everywhere.
VWAG does spring to mind, & I’d have a Golf over Corolla on any occassion.
Frugal One,
Do you drive a toyota ( or at least a prius)?
Had toyota not blown all that money on F1 for no results, they would have made a profit last year.
Could have saved money on TRD as well, but I’m glad they had a go.
There’s obviously some Aussies at toyota Australia who want sell some excitement.
Don’t forget that as far as Australia goes, they’re Aussies responsible for toyotas sales success in Oz. That keeps other Aussies in jobs.
When there doing the counting do thay count all gm owned brands or just one if so toyota have done good job as there a stand alone brand
Topdog,
Good point.
Do they include Diahatsu & Hino for toyota, & do they include Saab for GM?
Yeh i dont know hopefuly someone will know for sure.If there counting all there stock then that paints a different picture
Wouldn’t be that hard to beat G.M.[in sales] as #1
Check out G.M. has to offer:
Over weight
Poorly designed suspension/steering/brakes
O.H.V engines in their so-called “sports cars” range: Camaro Corvette including leaf springs!
Grossly over weight Chevy 4×4 long over due diesel engines
Reliability
The list goes on and on
G.M have cruzed on peoples[customers] ignorance for too long.
These “customers” have felt the frustration and seen the light.[with other up-to-date vehicles]
G.M will only slide down the ladder from here.
Farwell, I shed a tear Good Riddance
Guys VW is not a huge player in the US, unlike GM & Toyota(and others), therefore it has not been hit as hard as this huge market declines sharply.
All sales are included, saab, etc. I believe a certain ownership % is required. Being No. 1 is not the be all and end all I agree, In Toyota’s case however this is a mantle they have wanted to achieve for some time, so they would be happy.
I have to say guys, when you are the biggest producers and markets drop back 20 – 30% its only a matter of course that you will be hit hardest, ie Toyota, GM, Ford, et al.
I think though you are missing the point, those same Hi level sales in good times can lead to huge profits, I do not mean to harp on about GM and Ford, these are companies which have had huge Volumes and manged to lose billions, thats why I question the management, perhaps culture would be better.
BTW IMO, I believe Ford are on the way back, selling of non core business and have got good product, Ford is where GM would like to be in 2 years, except nobody wants to buy the likes of Saab and hummer..
Schah7,
Your comments sound just like those congress senators you are looking at what some want you top believe. Are you aware that both Ford & GM have more Hybrid & alternative fueled vehicles available to the world than Toyota? Are you aware that those Behemoths you mention (Pickups) are still the best selling vehicles for Ford GM & Toyota in the states??? Are you aware that the bulk of vehicles “sold” by Toyota are older generation high particulate diesels running in third world countries on high sulphar diesel.
I’m not getting into a slanging match, but with Toyota hitting the number one spot, it just goes to prove you still do not have to be the best to sell the most.
JasonP Says:
January 22nd, 2009 at 1:07 pm
Frugal One,
Do you drive a toyota ( or at least a prius)?
ATM no, had a HiLux and a Landcruiser in the past.
Currently have a BF11 Ute on LPG and with a BENCH-SEAT! :-)
Looking at buying a 2nd hand Prius for wifey, still looking early days [others on the list too]
Cheers
F-0
Yep Richo……. your not wrong baby !
Another doom and gloom story for GM……..
Theres plenty more out there today .
Chrysler if it merges with Fiat will have to return the bridging finance its received,BMW cuts 26,000 workers and may apply for state aid,{thats the worlds biggest luxury car maker folks} ,French government also has offered their manufacturers money on the table if needed……..
Second thing is Auto Blog announced this same story for the last two years and got it wrong……unfortunately I think Toyota may have done it finally………
JasonP you once again have made some great points,GM and Ford aren’t the only ones hurting out there and as you mention perhaps if Toyota had pulled out of yet another waist of time racing year for them they may have made a profit.
On the up side Ive just read no ugly Caddys for Australia its been canned !
But another downside is that the Zeta platform that underpins the VE Commodore has been axed by GM too!
True Duck but think ,the less competition against GMHs luxury end means more chance of selling there own label ……..
TO THE FRUGAL ONE,
fly on the wall tells me second hand prius’s are being passed in at 18k at the auctions…hope this helps
Frugal One,
Would love to hear your thoughts on a 2nd hand Prius, if you get one for The Leader of The Opposition.
Particularly regarding battery charge times etc.
And hold a competition for who can run the thing from a full charge to zero in the shortest amount of time.
Schah7,
So how come it took toyota so long to overtake GM?
It took 77 years!!!!!!!!
The only thing constant is change, Toyota’s turn at the top now, followed by Volkswagon or maybe Fiat?
The car industry in Australia is a much dire position than people think.
Congrats to Toyota this will help them in the future. But be prepared to pay more for (all) vehicles in the long term!
Agree if Toyota has anything to do with it u will be paying more. Thk goodness Hyundai is attempting to keep them honest.
If Hyundai can expand their range they may have a chance.
See many of Toyotas traditional demographic making the switch.
Jason P – there is a big differance between Toyota and GM and that is Toyota Motor Corp is known for producing high quality, reliable, dependable are durable products that usually offer very few problems not to mention the company itself is operated in a lean, efficent, stable, well managed fashion that has lead to massive multi-billion dollar profits over the past few years all while GM was the complete opposite.
Times change and sometimes change rapidly and Toyota along with others such as VW, Hyundai, Honda etc have been able to change with it alwhile GM completely missed the boat all together.
Basically, have a look at Toyota as a whole then have a look at GM … one of them is strong while the other is weak and on thier knees.
Bavarian – Toyota had a good motor racing season last year with sterling performances in NASCAR winnning 2 from 3 Manufactuer Titles, won the Australian Rally Championship for thier 3rd straight year and much improved performance in F1. That equates to 3 titles in a single season, not a bad effort wouldn’t you admit
Apart from that, Toyota is funding it’s racing programmes with it’s own money so has a right to enjoy motorsport on it’s own terms unlike GM who is racing on public funds.
For as long as GM is publically funded to continue exsistance, i believe they have no right to compete in motorsport at all.
Frontman – Toyota’s current selection of diesel engines not only perform with the better selection available but continue to revamp and introduce Next Generation Diesels.
Maybe you should take the time and put some effort into familiarising yourself with Toyota’s diesel technology before making wrong and informed comments.
Another point, if GM and Ford have more selection of hybrid vehicles available, why does Toyota comfortably outsell their combined hybrid effort ?????
Who the hell is J.J.T ……..yet another alias for Dingo……Never heard of him before !
Mate my comment to you was at Toyota in F1….they have been in it for 6 YEARS…….not one win ! Couldnt give two tossers about what else they race in,point is F1 in the epitome of car racing,there meant to be the biggest car manufacturer in the world and yet they stand on the podium once in 6 years and thats still not in the number 1 position.
Why does Toyota sell so many boring Pri-arses……….cause they are good at marketing,take a look at their Prius fuel calculator,made in their favor so you can only enter vehicles that will lose against the Prius in fuel economy…….its rigged by Toyota for their silly non knowing bland boring customers…….Please dont tell me your one of those miss informed fools J.J.T ?
Jason P – GM, Ford and Chrysler has been returning multi-billion dollar losses for several years and even to the point that GM and Chrysler are now insolvent and unable to fend for themselves so it is them who should have given up motorsport many years ago, maybe then they may have limited thier massive bleeding from the bank account.
Toyota on the otherhand has racked up mega billion dollar profits for the best part of the last decade and never even returned a loss in history until soon (expected) and even then it is will only 1/6th of thier last reported profit alone which was about 17 billion.
So while Toyota funds it own programme, GM is siphoning from the publc purse and after looking at the big picture and not part off, who should have abandoned motorsport when and who has the right to continue racing today … exactly !!
Bavarian – it is good to see Toyota and even Honda until recently competing in the most advanced motorsport of all and who is to say without continued persistance Toyota won’t start winning racing in the future.
You say Toyota has only stood on the podium once in 6 years which is incorrect as they have stood there on a few occassions including twice last year.
Toyota competes in it’s own right with it’s own money funded by it’s own bank account unlke GM who now competes in different motorsport events throughout the world on public money.
Big differance wouldn’t you agree !!!!!
Judging by some comments on this topic and site in general, it appears many bloggers including yourself are infact misinformed … you couldn’t even get Toyota’s stance on the podium correct.
Toyota sells many Prius’s because it is a good product and one that revolutionised hybrid transportation unlike examples from GM which have proven to be dreadfully unreliable. Lexus makes a better hybrid yet again.
J.J.T.
I’ll stand up & say that Toyota won’t win in F1. There you go. :-) They keep running their F1 team the same way they do their car business, but it doesn’t translate.
As for their wins in NASCAR, you do know that you can’t buy a rear wheel drive Camry, with a castiron 5 litre V8 up the front, don’t you?
From memory, Toyota use either a ford or Dodge V8 for their NASCARS.
They won the Australian Rally Championship this year did they? Against all the other manufacturers….wait they all pulled out. Suby & Mitsu, gone. You must have been the guy who watched the coverage on SBS, after 10 gave it the flick.
On Rallying, you did overlook the 12 month ban imposed on toyota for cheating in the WRC a few years ago. Ilegal turbos I think it was………
Honda went from disaster to disaster in F1, & pulled the pin. A good decision; they were embarrassing themseves. They haven’t been too flash in Moto GP lately either.
J.J.T. you seem a little worked up mate; don’t know why, you seem to be a toyophile, so you must be pleased.
We’re all entitled to our opinion, even people who like toyotas.
It’s just that some other companies build a little excitement into their cars.
Does any little kid lie back at night dreaming, “one day, I’ll drive a Camry” ? Very few I’d say.
But there’d be many who dream of an SS, HSV, FPV, XR6 Turbo, or an EVO 10, or(god help us), an STi.
Honda, Mazda, VW, Audi, etc, etc all build bullet proof cars, just like toyota, but they have some desireability as well.
I cannot think of a single toyota model, that I just have to have.
Neither for their styling, performance, or anything else.
if they built cars like Honda or VW/Audi, I’d buy one, & then announce it on this site for all to make comment.
Ah, don’t hold your breathe………
It matters not if the cars you make are boring or exciting. What matters is if you make a profit. The market can’t sustain the plethora of makers that exist today, some will wither and die or be absorbed by competitors. GM could be out selling Toyota 10 to 1 but it would matter little as they losing money on each car they make. That is like paying your boss to go to work and not receiving a salary for the dim witted around here. Even if the US government wanted to it can’t prop up loss making entities forever. The market will decided the winners and losers. GM’s market capitalisation is about 2 billion US dollars compare that to Toyota’s $105 billion or VW’s $125 Billion. That’s why no bank will touch them, GAME OVER BABY!
J.J.T. latebreaking news……..
Toyotas F1 Team has been put on notice to either win this year, or the pin wll be pulled.
As that won’t happen…………
Um J.J.T gee Im sorry I should have googled that first……perhaps it was because it just seemed after 123 races I hadnt seen many Toyota drivers on the podium…….Yesterday you tell me that Lexus is far superior to German makes and bring up JD Powers……another survey ! And what do I find on their site,Lexus wins in the poverty pac lux sedan against BMW coming second…..BMW winning the middle section with its 5 series and Merc the top of the range lux model……perhaps you should check your facts before posting mmmmmmmmmm
Mate some of us bloggers who have been on this site for a few years now have had the same arguments with Toyota lovers weekly {some daily recently}………..why ? cause you guys think that Toyota is all almighty and we are merely trying to bring you down to earth…..A true car enthusiast can see straight through Toyotas smoke and mirror marketing but hey you choose to believe what they tell you in their surveys you all seem to love so much!
Tell me when a Car editor goes to buy a car does he test drive it enjoy and buy it for its enjoyment or does he look up the nearest survey and buy it on behalf of their recommendation?
As far as the Hybrid thing……..its a crock….dont care what Lexus do, me I would take a German diesel over any Hybrid…….
hahaha yeah Jason….there gone !
he he he maybe I should get to know the product I have been selling for the last month whilst doing holiday stand ins. :-)
So what is Toyota’s are crap and Gm’s cars are great if the company is out of business you cant buy them. Steam powered cars used to be popular once.
Does anyone know how the workers at Rio Tinto are going???
Does anyone know how the workers at Rio Tinto are going???
Why do u ask?
Jason P – just goes to show how little you understand, Toyota build thier own NASCAR engines and are not sourced from Ford, GM or Dodge as you incorrectly stated.
Toyota was indeed banned for 12 months in WRC for the incorrect use of a turbo but they also rightfully (and legally) won a total of 3 Titles.
How many times has Ford, Dodge and GM been caught cheating in NASCAR … countless.
Infact, GM and Ford even rallied to have Toyota’s HP restricted last year because they were unable to compete against Toyota. Thier losing behaviour no differently displayed towards Nissan and the GTR in Australia many years ago.
As for the Australian Rally Championship, it has infact increased in the amount of manufactuers which now includes Toyota, Honda, Mitsubishi, Ford, Subaru, VW and on the cards – Mazda. That’s quite a few more then the ordinary 2 in the V8SC.
Toyota make many desireable platfroms themselves including SUV’s and 4×4’s while i believe Lexus is ranked amoung the most respected in the world.
‘IS’ series a good car especailly the IS-F. Wish Lexus Australia imported the IS350 aswell.
Before i conclude, don’t get upset because i corrected you on a number of matters. Just accept it the way it is. Some of your comments were bluntant wrong and quite frankly – shallow
ps. Toyota continues to fund it own way in motorsport unlike GM who now shouldn’t be allowed while sustained by someon elses purse
Conclude …..why ?
Come on J.J.T we all want to know what you drive……..a Sportivo Camry and a 4 cylinder wide bodied one as well ?
Starting to sound like Dingo to me guys……..If it is Im guessing he will be banned PRETTY SOON ………AGAIN!
J.J.T.,
Just finished reading a road test where the M3 flogged the IS-F; horses for courses.
What Toyota cast iron V8 block do they use in the rear wheel drive NASCARS? Can you tell me what model it’s from?
It was my impression that toyota merely throws dollars at a few NASCAR teams, who build their own cars.
At least a V8 Supercar uses an engine somewhat close to what you can buy in the road models. nd they use the same driving wheels. Whether they win or not, I can’t see what toyota is in NASCAR for. There’s nothing that translates to their road cars.
Lexus is so keen to copy the Germans styling, they even copied the “bustle back” from recent Beemers. Only thing uglier than the previous 7 series BMW, is the latest Lexus copy.
Imitation is the most sincere form of flatery, just don’t present it as your own idea. Lexus shamelessly copy BMW & M-Benz. I’m sure they build great cars; I just don’t aspire to having one, the same as I do a Beemer or Merc. And let’s face it, they’re (slightly) cheaper to buy, so more chace of me owning one, if I found them appealing.
As I said, you seem a little worked up, mate.
:-)
I’m not upset. Which were the shallow comments?
:-)
Easy to be profitable when u use the same Camry platform for just about every model including the high profit luxury brand Lexus.
Quote [Duck] : But another downside is that the Zeta platform that underpins the VE Commodore has been axed by GM too!
The Aussie Designed Zeta Platform on which the VE is built and has a lot of global potential hasn’t been AXED… its just that due to the current economic climate GM have decided to put any future plans relating to RWD projects ON ICE for the time being..
Holden will continue to build Commodores on the Zeta Platform for at least the next 10 years…. remmeber the VB-VL Commodores were built on the same Platform as the Opel Rekord its just that overtime Holden made a number of changes ansd improvements to it.
However; given that Holden have plans to make the OCmmodore more COmpact they could opt for the Smaller Alpha Platform which is also designed by Holden and just as Flexible otherwise there’s the Epsillon platform from the Opel Insignia both of which can accept RWD AWD and FWD
Hey “its great to be number 1″. I’d really like to buy a Toyota as they are mega reliable and just sooo trendy (everyone has one). The wife really wants a two seater sports car with say a 2litre donk, drop top (steel or fabric) don’t care whether it’s FWD or RWD. Me I want a medium/large wagon with a diesel donk. What would you suggest. He waits for answer.
“jasonp” hey buddy what article did you read where the m3 flogged the isf if i am correct so far i have read about 25-30 write up’s on the m3 vs isf vs amg63 and i would say so far its 50-50 with the beemer just ahead on handling only, get it write next time! the isf kills the bmw m3 in looks,power,torque,finish,and equipment levels and sheer value for money!
^^^
sorry mate,
no toyota kills any equivalent BMW for looks
jasonp stick to facts buddy toyota build’s there own nascar engines with trd america! stop making things up and get it right!
“jasonp” you dont seem to know what you are talking about! most if not all of your posts are made up rubbish, go do some more homework before posting again buddy!
Hey – feels great to be number 1 – correct but remember the engine capacities of both car. Can’t remember but aren’t they 1300cc difference with the Lex being 30 larger.
The GM bit losing the numero uno spot was inevitable. Poorly run business selling fossils to cowboys who now have no money to buy more. Toyotas reliability, whilst unfounded, has good reputation.
sorry 30% larger – friggin cheap keyboards
Feels Great to be No.1,
Just doing my homework now, buddy.
Will I have to skip lunch, & stay after school too?
:-)
I dunno, I think closely following the car industry for 30+ years at least allows me to express an opinion.
If you don’t agree with any of it, well that’s ok too. Even if I’m wrong on most if not all points, I’m allowed to express my thoughts.
PS I’m with Andrew M. “no toyota kills any equivalent BMW for looks”.
Especially the IS-F looking better than an M3? Not to me.
IS-F? AS-IF!
:-)
Jason P – Toyota competes in NASCAR as an equal and in the same rights as Chevrolet, Ford and Dodge therefore thier performance is equally credited as any other manufactuer. Or … if not warranted according to youself then same goes for all of ‘em.
NASCAR is infact extremely similar to the V8SC series and that they all operate a controlled chassis and even frame and the only true differance being is what manufactuer teams choose to align with to sources thier powerplants and the Toyota / TRD developed donks were simply producing greater HP to the point Ford, Chevrolet and Dodge teams whinged, swined and carried-on until Toyota had thier output artificially reduced simply because they were dominating the competition.
How typical of the American trio – instead of investing more and working harder to catch up, they take the easy path and have Toyota restricted instead … just as Holden and Ford done in Australia with Nissan.
And what comes of it all, well – it proves the American companies only ever look good when it is just them but as soon as outside competition enters the fray then all of a sudden the American owned companies don’t look so good after all … do they !!
Toyota literally made a mockery of them last year.
As for nothing to translate to road cars … correct me if i am wrong but wether it be F1, NASCAR, V8SC Series, Japanese GT, WRC or drag racing – it is all about expression of automotive engineering not to mention what most forms of racing these days have virtually nothing in common with production models bar a name.
V8SC series all run a single controlled chassis with little more then a Commodore / Falcon resembled frame attached not to mention Ford Australia hasn’t even sold a pushrod V8 for how long ????????
And before i conclude, bare in mind that the nameplates used in NASCAR by each manufactuer – the so called ‘Camry’ is the only car assembled in the US while the others are manufactuered across the US border eg. Mexico
and hasn’t that been raised on a number of accassions by many of the US population.
On a final note, it is infact TRD USA who wholely and solely engineer Toyota NASCAR donks and last year one of the titles they secured was the Craftsman Trucks of which they have now won for 3 consecative years after racing for only 5.
The Nationwide was the other secured Title and achieved in only thier second season (single handedly won 20 from 35 meetings) all while they same so close in grabbing the Sprint Cup aswell.
Oh well … 2 out of 3 is a damn good effort !!
J.J.T.,
Wasn’t saying that nothing translates to the road cars, I was saying I don’t know what benefit toyota get from it.
They don’t sell a RWD V8 Camry, just as Ford don’t sell a RWD V8 Fusion or Taurus.
I can’t stop myself watching V8 Supercars, but on the other hand, I found NASCAR (all categories) so boring, I switched off. And I’ve been a motor racing tragic for almost 30 years.
Toyota have wasted literally billions in F1; they should have just jumped in NASCAR earlier.
OK, so TRD engineer & build the V8 Camry donks; I stand corrected.
By the way, I’m not very impressed with V8 Supercar at the moment; it’s too contrived, & as you say, therace cars bear no relationship to the road cars.
I’ve been watching Classic Australian Touring Cars on DVD, & have been reminded of how great the racing was in Group A.
Commodore Vs Falcon Vs RX7 Vs Turbo Bluebird Vs BMW 635CSi.
The racing was close, you didn’t really know you’d win each race, & the cars were so much closer to standard compared to todays purpose built chassis.
Bring back Group A rules with safety upgrades, & the racing would be great.
Now Honda, having failed on a huge scale (This time around) in F1, but not as badly as Toyota, are making noises about joining NASCAR…………
God knows why……
Reels Great to be Number 1 Says: January 22nd, 2009 at 9:00 pm
“JasonP – hey buddy what article did you read where the M3 flogged the IS-F? if i am correct so far i have read about 25-30 write up’s on the M3 vs IS-F vs AMG63 and i would say so far its 50-50 with the beemer just ahead….”
Given that the AS-IF is such a high profile and eagerly anticipated car [by some] I would expect that there have been more than 30 odd articles/reviews written about it
by some of the world’s reputable international motoring journalists [and some not so]
I have read a number of articles on the IS-F and how it compares to the M3… Overall it appears the IS-Fs quite an impressive car which has a number of issues such as the rigid suspension which gives the impression that they’re trying a little too hard to impress.
Just because you haven’t read the same article as Jason myself or anyone else has doesn’t mean that it didn’t happen.
toyota sure know how to run a business
the first ever loss in 71 years thats astounding.
jasonP Says:
January 23rd, 2009 at 5:15 pm
“They don’t sell a RWD V8 Camry, just as Ford don’t sell a RWD V8 Fusion or Taurus.”
Toyota Japan do sell a fabulous RWD V8 – the Toyota Crown. I drove it while I was in Tokyo recently. Shame it isn’t sold here. It’s big, powerful, and the interior is more LS than Aurion.
Jason P – You have raised the question ‘why does Toyota bother racing in NASCAR’ a couple of times but anotherway of looking at it is … why not !!
Considering the North American market is the single largest market for Toyota (and many other manufactuers for that matter including most from Japan) and that approx 50% of thier profits are derived from the one environment then obviuosly North America is arguably the best market of all to be promoting themselves especially in the form of motorsport not to mention NASCAR is infact the second most popular and viewed sport in the US.
It’s not about the Camry or RWD for that matter, just racing !!
As for names, it’s just that and nothing else so what does it really matter. Wether they call it a Yaris or a Lexus IS-F … does the stickered name make any differance to the actual developed racing product !!!!!!
And before i conclude – considering Toyota had an absolute blinder of season last year (and they did), it sure as hell wouldn’t have done thier image any harm and not just in North America either but around the world and them some bragging rights :
* Toyota beat the American trio at thier own game on thier own soil … Oooch !!!
Toyota certainly got bang for thier buck last year in NASCAR and i believe they will remain competitive for the upcoming season aswell.
Oh yeah, Marcus Ambrose has made the switch to Toyota as of this year.
jasonp in the eyes of “phillis diller” the bmw m3 may look good but to every one else the new 3 series range is plain butt ugly! the isf would but a horn on a jellyfish and every write up agrees, the isf kills the m3 on looks no argument!
Truly wonderful news, serves them right for making sh*t cars.