Mercedes to use BMW engines?

By Karl Peskett | October 27th, 2008

In tough economic times, manufacturers have to diversify, as well as work on their strengths. According to one German magazine, BMW has done just that, and is willing to supply its engines to competitive marques.

With BMW cleaning up International Engine of the Year awards in several categories, and for several years, it makes sense to profit from its experience in this field.

BMW’s head of development, Klaus Draeger, has been reported as saying that BMW is moving forward with plans to sell its engines to Mercedes, as well as other brands.

“We are ready in principle to sell our engines to a competitor. And yes, we are talking openly with Mercedes about several possibilities,” Draeger said.

Aston Martin was also another name specifically mentioned in discussion. BMW’s V12 is said to be one of the first engines to make the transition across brands.

If the components are the right price, it would make sense for Merc (and others) to take on the engines and concentrate on other areas of its cars.

WVB

since when did MB need assistance from bmw re engine technology. I would suggest talking openly should lead to information sharing, i.e 2 way street.
anyway, who’s winning F1 at the moment.
Wheelnut

“In tough economic times, manufacturers have to diversify, as well as work on their strengths.”

This is the reason why I believe that Holden and Opel will survive despite GMs financial Problems. As both Holden design/build better RWD cars than the yanks and Opel design/build better FWD cars… they’re GMs Strengths

I seem to recall that GM signed a “partnership” deal with BMW [to supply engines] which means that even Holden could also benefit from BMWs expertise.
B///M3

BMW should not be selling their engines to their competitors, it is one of the things that make them the best of the best! If they go ahead with this deal, BMW will have to work twice as hard to stay infront of the market and the industry.

Don’t do it BMW!
davie

Interesting concept,

transmissions like the ZF 6-speed auto are already shared across BMW, Ford and several other marques.

Holden is considering purchasing the VM moturi (not sure what its called) diesel 6cyl engine from outside its GM stable.

Perhaps thats what some auto makers will become, simply buying parts of the shelf of other car or independent engine makers…
MisterTwo

Opel/Vauxhall used BMW’s 2.5 Turbo diesel in their Omega (VN Commodore) back in the mid ’90s.
AM fan

wheelnut: when did GM sign this “partnership” and what did it involve, i’m intrigued.
Richo

AM Fan – about 6 months ago.

GM decided they didn’t have enough cash to design the new northstar II V8 which was to go into cadillac motors and instead signed a partnership with BMW.

It relates specifically to V8 engines only at this stage. Basically GM will tip into the BMW V8 engine development kitty and in return they will have access to BMW’s V8 engines for their own use.

GM will however continue with its own “performance V8′s” such as the LS series of V8′s, they are mainly after “luxury V8′s” for cadillacs
MB

AMG now part of Mercedes Benz have proved they can make a cracker jack motor eg C63 they should be looking in house rather tahn external.
Devil666

I spose the old Benz TT 3 valve SOHC V12 is getting a bit long in the tooth, but as one of the most powerful production engines in the world, who gives a rats. I don’t see BMW having to reinforce transmissions and driveshafts from torque overload.

Torque is going to give you better fuel economy than outright HP, something Mercedes has always had over comparable BMW engines (albeit this latest batch of twin turbo engines from Bavaria has closed any gap in most comparable engines), and in these uncertain economic times, fuel economy is potentially the safest bet. That TT35d engine is the one i’d wanna see in Benz’s first.

Even so I would love to see a high power collaboration the new Benz 5.5 V8 with BMW’s twin turbo know-how.
Myke

I’m more surprised that BMW are sharing engines with their direct rival, it would be like Holden and Ford AUS sharing engines.
Wheelnut

That’s right Richo; and as HSV are looking at introducing a new Entry Level “Clubbie” – expected to be released as part of the VF range; and will have a small capacity V8 [They were looking at the Northstar V8 engine]it appears that it could possibly have a BMW under the hood.
Reckless1

Component sharing is not exactly new.

My Jackaroo has a GM4L30-E auto transmission, which was used in
1991–1995 BMW 525i
1992–1995 BMW 325i
1992–1998 BMW 318i
1994–2001 Honda Passport
1994–2003 Opel Omega B
1996–1999 BMW 328i
1996–1999 BMW 528i
1996–2000 BMW Z3
1996– Acura SLX
1996– Opel Frontera
1997–1999 BMW 323i
1997–2001 Cadillac Catera
1999– Isuzu Amigo
2001– Isuzu VehiCROSS
1991–1998 Isuzu Rodeo
1990–2001 Isuzu Trooper
1990-2003 Isuzu Jackaroo
acfsambo

Reackless1, transmissions have long been made by independant companies and have been bought by many different car companies. Engines have never really been made by independant companies, therefore sharing engines with direct competitors is not as common.

This sharing will ultimately create better cars, as companies can focus on some section more and put more money into what they are good at such as engines, transmissions, interior layout/quality, ect.
laurie

I seemed to remember when GMH put the Nissan 6 cylinder engine in the Commodore and Nissan got on trouble from GMH for saying “If It Works Well In Their Cars Just Think How It will Go In Our Car”

laurie
Reckless1

Acfsambo, The 4l30-e was made by GM. I think on a countback, there would be as many engines shared over the years as transmissions, probably a lot more.

Some engine sharing that comes to mind briefly is Isuzu diesels and petrols used by many other companies, MB engines used by Musso, MB engines & transmissions used by Chrysler, as Laurie says Nissan engine and trans in Commodore, VM Motori engines in many makes, etc.

I’m not convinced that sharing will ultimately create better cars. I don’t think it will make worse ones.
Dlr1

I think it has as much to do these days with the enormous R & D cost required to meet ever more stringent fuel economy and emission standards. Why spend hundreds of millions on your own V6 or V8 when you could combine R & D budgets and design a family of suitable engines. I expect more of this in the coming years. Currently VW and Mercedes share a Van platform (Sprinter/VW crafter) and use their own engines. And this concept is little different to the mid-late 80′s Nissan N13 Pulsar/ Holden Astra… Nissan body, Holden Family II 1.8 litre engine.
Shawn

Also AMG is far better than M division, so that’s another reason why Mercedes wouldn’t use BMW’s M engines.
http://faster DanMan

Sounds like some companies are worried about VW taking over…
Reckless1

VW is kicking goals at the moment.

In spite of the very long waiting periods for delivery.
Bavarian Missile

Quote “Also AMG is far better than M division, so that’s another reason why Mercedes wouldn’t use BMW’s M engines. ”

Yeah sure they are mate,M division invented the concept and Audi and Merc are the followers,its more than just an engine,remind me again how many engine awards Merc has won !hahahaha People that make remarks like that should back it up with why! I know I can baby!
Victory

BMW’s handle better than the others too. so even if they did sell engines to merc, which I can’t imagine, they would still kick amg butt.
but seriously, i love amg too
Cupid Stunt aka No Name

Yep right there Wheelnut – as Mister two said they supplied the 2.5 diesel to GM. They also supplied a 2.0litre CDTi to Rover/MG for the late nineties/early 2000′s. Apparently the Rover installaton was better than BMW at the time due to diffierent tuning.
Hi BM – you back on line Gal?
MB

Bavarian Missle you seem to forget who invented the motor car it certainly was not the Klatten or Quandt family. Was Daimler or Benz

You arguement could go the other way as well with how many COTY have BMW won ?

AMG was founded in 1967 M was 1970 what ????
James

BMW engines are world reknowned as top notch, obvious statement but it had to be said.

But in the manufacturing industry, “business” is business.
If BMW can make a profit or benefit by supplying parts to competition then it needs to be considered.

You have to remember manufacturers are in it for the money, as hard as that is to believe.
Bavarian Missile

Hey Cupid……….hows the weather in your part of the world? I have a good mate in the UK now whom works for Mercedes but drives BMWs ,funny that !

Back to MBs statement yeah AMG officially did start making racing engines in 1967 but when did they start making badged production cars ? BMW were already involved in racing prior to Motorsport being developed in 1972.

The M3 has won more European Touring Car races than any other manufacturer same with their engines, won more World Engine of the year awards than any other manufacturer.

Here’s the list of the 2008 winners:

International Engine of the Year 2008
BMW 3-litre Twin-Turbo (135i, 335i, X6)

Best New Engine of 2008
BMW 2-litre Diesel Twin-Turbo (123D)

Green Engine of the Year
Toyota 1.5-litre Hybrid Synergy Drive (Prius)

Best Performance Engine
Porsche 3.6-litre Turbo (911 Turbo, 911 GT2)

Sub 1-litre
Toyota 1-litre (Aygo, Yaris, Peugeot 107, Citroën C1, Subaru Justy)

1-litre to 1.4-litre
Volkswagen 1.4-litre TSI Twincharger (Golf, Touran, Tiguan, Jetta)

1.4-litre to 1.8-litre
BMW-PSA 1.6-litre Turbo (MINI Cooper S, Clubman, Peugeot 207, 308)

1.8-litre to 2-litre
Volkswagen/Audi 2-litre Turbo (A3, A4 Cabrio, A6, TT, Eos, Jetta, Golf GTi, Altea, Leon, Skoda Octavia)

2-litre to 2.5-litre
Subaru 2.5-litre Turbo (Forester, Impreza, Outback, Legacy)

2.5-litre to 3-litre
BMW 3-litre Twin-Turbo (135i, 335i, X6)

3-litre to 4-litre
BMW 4-litre V8 (M3)

Above 4-litre
BMW 5-litre V10 (M5, M6)

And they only lost to Toyotas Green engine by 2 points I believe ! Where the hell is Mercedes here.

Coty awards…………..who cares Holdens Camira and the P76 also won that,great! What about the last 4 years in WPCOTY ,thats Worlds Performance Car Of The Year ! BMW has been in the top 3 every year of the last 4 years………………no Mercedes in the Top 3 !

Were talking Engines MB not who made the first car ! Must say a lot about BMWs reputation for building Engines if Merc are coming to them,mmmmmmmmmm !!!!

Do you remember the Top Gear episode with the C63 and the BMW M3 ? The Merc may have been faster in a straight line but the car in general has too much grunt for the chassis,the Stig showed you that! Similar to the Shelby Super Snake and the W427……..the Shelby nails its arse with power but handling wise the Super Snake is too much of a handful!

BMW make the worlds best engines simple as that !
http://faster DanMan

Hmmm i dont know about engines (plural) but the best engine (singular) IMO was the BMW v12 Paul Roushe Made for Gordan Murray’s Mclaren F1.

What a motor!!
Dlr1

I don’t mind if BMW want to sell their engines, just promise me they won’t sell the iDrive interface! Yuk!
MB

Mercedes were racing cars prior to BMW even making cars let alone motorbikes or even forming the company.

So in oyur opinion engine awards outweigh vehicle awards.

I do remeber BMW & MB recently talking aobut platform sharing for the next generation A & B class.
Bavarian Missile

I spend 30 mins replying and backing up my statement MB and you respond with 3 Sentences !

So your telling me that Mercedes have more experience at building racing engines than BMW ,mmmmmmmm seems that extra time hasn’t made them better hey! I think both awards matter bearing in mind were talking WORLD awards not some local mag award !

Tell me when did Merc start badging AMG on their production cars ?

And besides without a friggin engine a car is just a pile of useless metal….unless of course you’re Fred Flintstone

A class Merc…she shudders…….urggggggggghhhhhhhh !

Admit defeat, BMW make the best engines in the world and that what this story is about ha!
mb

I have had my share of BMW’s in the past but moved onto to Benz’s some years ago nothing really appeals to me in the BMW range to actual put the $ down on.

Have driven current M3 & 335i & 135i yes great motors but the whole package just does not do it for me. But $ for performance 135i is the way to go.
Bavarian Missile

Yeah well MB Im the opposite,owned a Merc boring as bat s h i t and quality wise very disappointing considering 160k was spent,now have had 6 BMWs all trouble free and Im real hard on my cars {Wheelnut will tell you that} hence why I now drive an M3,I have to say the new V8 M3 doesnt do it for me like the I6s but I wouldn’t knock one back either, I do love their note though,orgasmic!!!!

Just reading one of my old BMW mags back from 1992 and they were talking about the engine Rosche developed ,it started life out of a an F1 they got an impressive 700 hp from the little 1.4 litre by the time Rosche finished with it he returned 1250 hp ! Thats simply awesome !

On another note you know who developed the first purpose designed fully functional electric car ????????? Yep BMW not Toyota,way back in 1991 !

So MB can you tell me when did AMG make their first badged AMG production car ?
mb

Most recent AMG’s have been stand alone ones, the first cars were the old 6.9 from the 70′s but first AMG produced cars would have been (guessing) 500E’s they have been more a tuner given MB’s conservative structure.

Have had a few BMW’s including E12 525 & 528i, E21 323i, E30 323i & 325is E36 M3 3.2 was the last. The only one I would consider atm is either a 130i or 135i 335i is tempting though.
acilk

“On another note you know who developed the first purpose designed fully functional electric car ????????? Yep BMW not Toyota,way back in 1991 !”

What? The electric vehicle was around before internal combustion…

And Toyota didn’t even have the first hybrid… Ferdinand Porsche developed a hybrid in 1901
Bavarian Missile

Yeah maybe but was it functional ? BMW claim that not me babe!

MB you had some good 3 series in there cant understand why they disappointed you………….please explain!
Bavarian Missile

Ok my mate in the UK who is more of an expert at Merc than me just came back to me !This is what he said MB

“Another misguided idiot, here we go …AMG is owned by merc now but if he wants comparisons alpina first started tuning BMWs in 1963-way before A.M.G. but thats not all ‘M’ was formed in 1973 -the first car they touched was the csl ‘batmobile’ which won the European touring car championship from 73-79 . The M1 was the first road car with the M535i being the next after the M1. tell him to sort his opinion from facts out cos BMW have a far more successful racing pedigree compared to practically anybody x

So there you have it MB is he wrong I doubt it………….this is a guy thats owned more than 43 BMWs and yep works for Merc !
MB

He is probably correct but I am not going to lose sleep over it.

As for problems with 3 (other than the M3) it was performance. The E30 could handle more power via the chassis but just didn’t have it. The E12 had those dodgy Stromberg carbs which were problematic. Now an E30 with a 335i motor would be great…this is why I like the 130i & 135i small car big motor good performance it is like a 323i E21 all over again.
acilk

“Yeah maybe but was it functional ?”

Well they were driving around as early as the 1830s…