Toyota-Subaru FR sports coupe cost concerns
October 21, 2008 by George Skentzos
The joint-venture between Toyota and Subaru to create an affordable sports coupe has hit a snag with engineers apparently having issues in developing the car toward its modest price tag.
Together with a few renderings based upon insider speculation, Japan’s Best Car magazine has reported that cost cutting is proving to be a problem for Toyota’s compact rear-driven sports coupe.
Based on a shortened version of the Subaru Legacy (that’s Liberty closer to home), the Toyota FR sports car will retain its 2.0-litre boxer engine from the current JDM Impreza, however any hope of a flagship turbocharged edition has been all but lost in the wake of this latest news.
Toyota is aiming for power output of around 147kW in its naturally-aspirated guise, a relatively small jump from the engine’s current 139kW output in the Impreza in order to retain good fuel economy despite its sports car designation.
As a spiritual successor to the AE86 which has now reached cult status, the new model will be quite light at just 1,200kg and nimble too with the low position of the engine resulting in a lower centre of gravity.
This will also dictate a low profile for the shape of the car which Toyota boasts will have impressive styling in an attempt to shed its bland image.
Best Car is quite certain the new car will be offered with a 6-speed manual gearbox initially, with an automatic transmission also to available later despite its ‘pure’ sports intentions.
The coupe will retain the Legacy’s suspension setup however its all-wheel drive origins don’t particularly translate well to rear-drive dynamics, although necessary in order to bring the car to market under the designated budget.
Members of Toyota’s development team have commented that the current suspension from the Legacy is “weak and terrible”, but since then a Legacy test mule has been spotted fine tuning the suspension system – a phase of development which is now complete.
Subaru is also expected to boast a similar model in its line-up based on the jointly-developed sports coupe, with both brands likely to make the car available on the Japanese market for under AUD$30,000 – the target which has caused this concern.
Source: 7Tune
Print it: 
So it took a combination of Toyota and Subaru to make something more exciting than the Corolla but that Toyota badge just makes the car boring.
I think its going to take Toyota a lot of work to make anything they make less boring that the past.
What possible technical/engineering input can Toyota have in the engine performance area?
They want this sports car to have 147Kw -over the years Toyota have needed the help of Yamaha to tune their “high” performance engines-including the(possibly)defunt LF-A V10.
Toyota will eventually take full control of Subaru and I believe(Subaru)may lose it’s individuality/uniqueness :(
the old celica was 147kw wasnt it? Surely with adv in technology, they can manage more than that now. Toyota will probably do a trd version later on and charge 60k for it. Why not charge 40k and slot in a supercharged 4 or v6.
Ditch the badge and the two middle lights and you’ve got a slick looking car.
well if subaru provied the chassis/platform and running gear including engine,
what the hell have toyota done apart from beating their chest??
thats right, toyota are there commenting that the subaru suspension isnt good enough.
have these very same toyota engineers driven any of their own vehicles??
oh sorry,
toyota seem to have supplied the g a y looking and outdated extra front lights straight out of the lexus box
You know what else is 147kw and 1200kg? A Mitsubishi FTO GPX which you can pick up for around 10k.
My 405 did that back in 1989, when new. You can pick one up for about $5K and it doesn’t attract the attention from the fuzz. Handles like it’s on rails. But be prepared to have your passenger carry the dashboard in their lap. Along with all the other bits that fall off which the French consider a “consumable”.
But damn they’re fun without getting a car loan.
SteveC
Quote [Andrew M] well if subaru provied the chassis/platform and running gear including engine,
what the hell have toyota done apart from beating their chest??
Its obvious isn’t it.. Toyota designed it! I mean look at it. Its got Ferrari headlights; Lotus Elise airdam; Lamborghini side vents; BMW taillights; Windows from a Porsche; Mirrors from a Corvette.
It’s a mixture of ideas from various other cars which look good on their own but when moulded together on the one car make the car look outdated and ugly just like the Camry/Aurion
What id like to know is … is this the start of Toyotas downfall given that this is now the latest to join a list of future models Toyota has put on ice.. a list which includes the new Supra – yet their cross town rival Nissan forged ahead and released the awesome GT-R
Oh that’s right Nissan haven’t wasted over $200m over the last 5 or so years in F1. Nor have they tried to be everything to everyone with an ever increasing range of cars in new sectors in an attempt to try and compete against the big boys.. which when compared to the established models are just like every other Toyota Bland Boring Poor Value for Money and in some cases Ugly
Not really sure why Subaru needs Toyota for this. If they are using Subaru’s platform and Subaru’s boxer engine…I would think Subaru would be more than capable creating their own rear-wheel drive platform.
And if I was to buy one of these..off goes the Toyota badge and slap on some shiny stars!!
Why are you people so obsessed with the badge? You should be grateful that Toyota is at least committed to making a low budget sports car.
^ I think Tim’s more grateful that most of the chassis and engines are subaru engineered and not the other way around. I know I am. Quite rich of Toyota to say the Liberty’s suspension is weak and terrible. Suggest Toyota look at the suspension setup of their equivalent car the Camry as an example of terrible.
Subaru need some more fluid looking designs in their current portfolio and this maybe a ticket. It does seem that subaru are providing a fair chunk of engineering clout for the project so i would like to see some subaru versions sans the stupid lexus lights as mentioned.
To give each some lineage to their involvement with the car, subaru should re-birth the virtual still born vortex and toyota the famed 2000GT names which i might add, the latter shows more than a passing resemblance in the colour shot. Obviously, it wont be a GTR or NSX but looks to be a worthy if not watered down toyota biased supra protege.
btw, I disagree with the big Ts disdain of the liberty’s quite excellent dynamics on tarmac. I think only a contemporary Mazda 6 pips it there.
A committee car with a budget.
Doomed to fail.
Looks good. Why should Toyota bring out a new Supra when they can save money using Subaru and adding a Toyota badge. (Q. how do you make a Subaru better? A. add a Toyota badge. He, He)
A little tweak of the suspension and some engine mods and presto. Will have a sharp price to i bet……
Very resourceful little fellows those lads at Toyota :)
Can you guys read the article before commenting on the looks? It’s an insider SPECULATION. Also, the main purpose of the article is about the issue of pricing.
I have had high hopes for this one. I thought it would be under AU$20k equivalent. But noooo….it has to be $30k. For that much amount of money, I would want a revamp MR2 SW20 with a VVTL-i engine.
Instead of the thirsty boxer engine with little torque without a turbo, why not put Toyota’s engine…? And reduce weight to 1000kg, less luxury.
And btw, 147kW (197hp) for a 2 litre N/A is quite impressive.
I suppose each to their own. Personally, I quite like the look of the car (assuming it does look like the pic)except for the two lights which are closer to the badge. Removing them would make the car look more sleek IMO.
As for the price, getting a RWD 4 cylinder car these days is pretty rare. So the price of below AUD30000 or under 2million yen seems pretty reasonable. For example, the Renault Clio RS which was review is approx 37k RRP and the CTR is 39990 RRP. So from that perspective, the Toyobaru seems reasonable.
Cheers
Ahh.
The wonders of internet and free speech… even if ignorant.
[1] Behind close doors, Toyota will inject fund to Subaru for this project. Assuming it doesnt get put on ice, the industry is going through major re-shuffling.
[2] Toyota is complaining about suspension?. And some posters here complain about Toyota complaining and use the Camry as an example of why Toyota shouldnt be complaining.
Toyota is not just Camry, Camry is produced and engineered like most passenger mass production vehicles…. cost efficient.
Please look outside the box and see what Toyota produces all around the world and in the past. Subaru wasnt born when Toyota was producing performance vehicles in Japan and around the world… OH thats right, just because Australia only gets a couple of Toyota vehicles, we should use them as representative of ALL of Toyota. Again, ignorance…. think big and globally people.
[3] By using Toyota badge, many marketing benefits.
Its funny all these Subaru nut huggers complaining about Subaru going in bed with Toyota and worried about being “conservatized”…. Again, ignorance is bliss.
You should be thankful that GM and Subaru are no longer together and its Toyota who takes them over. I mean, Honda, Nissan arent big enough to do so. For the long run its for the best. Just amazing how shallow people think… but then again its the net, anyone can post opinions.
[4] Toyota did not cancel the “Supra”, there was never a plan for a “Supra”. The FT-HS is not the “Supra”. Images online of sketches… where just.. SKETCHES. By artists.
The FT-HS is on shelf, again due to the industry re-shuffling.
Why is Nissan going nuts with Sports coupe?
I dunno, I’m happy they are. But bigger and more important question, Why isnt Nissan leading automotive world in terms of profits?
Exactly…. But again, from enthusiasts point of view, good on Nissan. But from business point of view, Toyota is cautious and understandable.
I think Toyota/Yamaha should re-manufacture the 3SGTE, I know the Beams was the last re-incarnation.
But that engine is gun, I know my MR2 GT still packs a lot, although the Gen 3 3S in it has been tuned and rebuilt.
But the boxer setup allows the engine to be shorter in height, important for keeping a lower profile.
30K for a 147kW NA coupe is nice.
To be honest, expect turbo technology to be phased out. Even Nissan, king of japanese turbos doesnt plan a turbo on any of their current future sports cars.
I’m still baffled by some here, who thinks Toyota = Camry, I just cant believe it. Please look outside your backyard, its very Yank to just consider what we see in this land.
Also, just a comment about Yamah tuning Toyota engines. From media reports it seems that Toyota is simply hand balling the performance tuning to Yamaha. But really, its more like outsourcing. Engineers from both companies work together, not just Yamaha.
The LF-A V10 is on shelf by the way because Lexus planned to price it above the Vanquish. Around 500K USD. And its unlikely they will be successful at that price range…. combined that with the re-shuffling market…. logic points to “putting it on the shelf”.
The 1.8L Celica (Yamaha) motor from 2000 had 147kW. So this is hardly impressive for 2.0L in 2008. Trust the current Toyota management to make a great idea zzzzz once again.
About the Lexus LF-A, the japanese race driver (name escapes me) who tested it at Nurburgring was quoted as saying “Toyota are good at making money, not sports cars” It would seem after sinking all that money and development into the car Toyota still cant get it right. I think that says a lot about why they outsource to Yamaha etc.
So James, what ‘exciting’ product does Toyota have overseas that we don’t have in Australia? Surely, a Scion is not very exciting..
“To be honest, expect turbo technology to be phased out. Even Nissan, king of japanese turbos doesnt plan a turbo on any of their current future sports cars.”
Ok.. then why are VW and co. phasing out all of their atmo engines and replacing them with turbos?
The thing kinda looks to try hard for my eyes, the com gen picture (blue one) looks okay, but the sketch just looks like a 2009 Passeo………. And predicted pricing is about the same catagory. (shudder)
Toyota is worried about the suspension and James is worried why we are worried? Well be Honest, the best handling Toyota (not lexus because all you toyota people get upset when we call lexus a trunped up toyota so you can’t go back the other way) was the MR2. It it was only above average in mid engine terms. (that’s all versions by the way) Sillycar was just plane awfull at pace, Supra was not that much better. Great in a straight line and very fast, just didn’t like going round corners “out of the box”
Secondly, the other fear that the subau fans have, id=s that Toyota will do anotjer Diahatsu. Ie bleed off the good stuff and let the company dwindle and die to eventually be absorbed apart from a small niche set up.
They should drop a 3.5liter v6 in it,and leave subaru to run with a turbo 4 and ditch the middle lights.
The thing looks like a catfish or wobbegong, something only a grandmother could love. Which is probably who will be driving it, nans and pops who think they’re cool.
Probably shouldn’t be too hard on toyota, at least they are trying to make something people might actually WANT to drive.
Toyota get Yamaha to build their 4 cylinder engines which produce 100Kw – the corolla; then Lotus take the same engine [from Toyota] tweak it a bit more and virtually double the power..
So shouldn’t Toyota get Lotus to do their dyno work?
Lotus could also help Toyota with their design and of course their handling
Looking at that the first CGI picture, I think the back of the car looks almost the same as the CGI picture for the new 200sx! Shape wise. it’s probably the same guy whos making all these artists impressions.
Also with the 1.8L celica engine, the problem with that engine is that it burns small amounts of engine oil (I think) at the high rev ranges ( > 6200 rpm) when “lift” engages. I remember reading about how this made the engine fail euro IV emissions standards or something along those lines and thats why toyota has sort of abandoned it.
Wheelnut you’ve got the 1zzge and the 2zzge engines confused.
They are really different engines with the only common feature being the displacement.
A Cheap (RICH) Boring car manufacturer, with a LOW Budget for a so called Sports Coupe. Yeah GoodLuck.
Not to mention they have already saved money on the styling, cause i can already see some Design cue’s from Other Cars on this Gay Toyota, (Starting with the Bonnet and the whole front end)
What part of “renderings based upon insider speculation” don’t you understand Car-enthusiast?
Lol, RoFlmaTic, I understand every single part of “renderings based upon insider speculation”, but if u were smart enough & have been into cars for more than the last Half Hour u would relise, that most renderings from insider information is always about 70% to 80% correct.
I mean almost every CGI shot of a car that comes out before a car’s release is pretty damn accurate and close to what the real thing looks like.
And if in this case it is different and the car looks like Nothing above, then i am predicting and pretty sure that the next so called Sports Coupe to come out of Toyota, will not in any way look Good.
I mean its already bad enough that Since Toyota took ownership of Subaru, that they have already ruined it a bit, Starting with the Impreza WRX.
From the 7tune website:
‘As is usual for many Japanese car magazines (Best Car and Holiday Auto in particular), renders are aways included in the article to give the reader an idea of what the final car could look like. These images from Best Car of Toyota’s compact FR sports car are only “informed guesses”‘
We are not talking CGI renderings based on camo test mules like the Falcon ones, which were rather accurate. That picture is totally some persons imagination.
I find it extremely ironic that a self proclaimed “car enthusiast” places so much emphasis on a cars appearance. That’s if this GUESS is anywhere near the appearance the car will take.
LOL, RoFlmaTic, Jeez ur just a hypocrite, u just stated,[[ "We are not talking CGI renderings" ]], and a few comments up u said [[ "Looking at that the first CGI picture" ]]. lol dude, how old are u 5, or 10, or maybe 14? Have u even reached puberty yet? lmao and please Get OFF the weed that ur smoking.
Now since u decided to only read one part of my comment, ill just restate the other bit(s).
“And if in this case it is different and the car looks like Nothing above, then i am predicting and pretty sure that the next so called Sports Coupe to come out of Toyota, will not in any way look Good.”
NOW this has nothing to do with CGI, Rendering, Japanese car magazines or anything else. Now the only good/OK looking Toyota(s) ever made are likely to be a 1995 Toyota mr2, 1992 Toyota Celica GT4, and probably the old 1973 Toyota Celica.
And as u probably already know all the Current Toyota’s are no where near what u might call good looking, So what in the name of all thats Holy might make u think that the Next Toyota is any different.
All Toyota cares about, is making more Fuel Effiecient cars for the Masses. & As u might of probably known from the difference of the previous Gen Toyota Corolla to the Current gen Corolla(but thats a different story).
Now here is some, weird and unlikely thought of but true facts. Toyota Prius’s Have More of an effect on Global Warming then Ferrari’s, y u might Ask, because Toyota sells way More Prius’s then Ferrari sells of its cars, Per Year.(Just thought i’d mention that to piss all the environmentalists off) LOL
And if you read what I said properly:
“We are not talking CGI renderings based on camo test mules”
Do you lose your concentration after reading the first 5 words of a sentence?
It’s funny how you’ve totally changed your opinion now. In your first post you were 100% of the belief that the renderings were the real deal, now you’re not quite so sure?
As for your “prediction”, here’s mine:
If this car is absolutely stunning you will still say it looks sh 1 t because you’re absolutely brimming with bias. I mean, dimissing a car because of the looks, (looks which hasn’t even been released to the public) is the clearest example of bias that you can get.
You’re not a car enthusiast, you’re a brand enthusiast. Car enthusiasts appreciate cars of all brands but you make your decisions primarily based on brand alone.
As for age, it’s clear who is the 10 year old here. It’s the guy who randomly capitalises non-nouns in sentences, mispells you with “u”.
Get off your pedestal, grow up, and reserve your judgment until at least after official images are released. Then maybe people will take your opinion seriously.
LOL dude, do u ever get off this site, sry it took me so long to respond, BUT it was the WEEKEND, i bet u were waiting for my reply lol.
Lol now, A Car-Enthusiast appreciates Most car brands, not all. Because not every single Car Manufacturer makes good cars, u see y would i be interested or appreciate a 4 Cylinder, fwd no good JAP CRAP (hence Corolla etc etc), when i love V8 Muscle & RWD, or AWD.
So y should i appreciate a Car Manufacturer (TOYOTA) that has given us nothing but old slush mobiles for the masses and for grannies to run around to the local supermarket in, and Hold up everyone on a highway or free-way, doing half the speed limit in the right lane.
Also as for u claiming i’ve changed my opinion on the Renderings/CGI, well i havn’t. In my first comment i was explaining that most renderings/Insider information is 70 to 80% correct.
Now sure i might biased towards Toyota & this car, but thats because of the Experience & all that i have seen from Toyota. In the Last 20 or more years, their has been nothing fun, or good coming out of Toyota that u can buy. Now Toyota is a car Manufacturer that builds car’s for the masses, and thats all it is going to do. And what might make u think that Toyota might change all that and decide to start building cars for NICHE markets, (such as Lamborghini, Ferrari, Buggati etc), or what might make u think that Toyota is going to build a car that is going to take on a GTR, HSV, M3 etc.
Now the Latest news on this car (Just in case u didn’t know yet) Is that it will share a platform with the Subaru Legacy, and have a re-engineered Engine from the Subaru Impreza, & Insider information are claiming that MAYBE it will come in a Convertible version.
Now as for capitalising non-nouns in sentences, it is to make the word STAND OUT, just in case some ppl miss it. How many times in a document do u see words in bold, underlined, Capitalised etc. LOL not to mention ur name isn’t any better.
Also Y should i type you when i can type U, or R for are, or y for WHY etc. This is not some formal contract, or english test for the HSC, where everyone might cry about any abreviations u make, (although some ppl seem to be crying about it).
And as for Mispelling, so much for UR’s. dimissing, lol what happened to the S did it run away, thats an F- for u in the English Exam. Not to Mention the (1 in S H I T).
Now i dnt really care about stuff like that, cause no one is perfect, and we are who we all are, after all thats what makes us HUMAN, right. And im not the one turning a little joke, sarcasm and irony into an argument.
And another thing whether this car is good or bad, fantastic or crap, at the end of the day Toyota is the Winner or Looser.
reminds me of something like a supra together with a coupe from Subaru
Wow…
Toyota haven’t created anything decent in my personal opinion since the Supra. And by the looks of it, they’re dragging a brilliant brand down with them. Subaru are known for AWD, Boxer, they’re amazing suspension and the best part, the engine noise… I don’t see the point in even having the Boxer engine in that car plain and simply because there’s nothing else that Subaru have to go with it. Bring back the “Boy Racer” any day.
On another note, the car itself, looks like a really ugly, longer version of the latest model Celica… Toyota, stick with making cars that are designed for people aged 60+. This car is just not going to cut it.
Loving it!! anymore updates?