Toyota worried about GM’s Chevrolet Volt?
September 18, 2008 by Alborz Fallah
Toyota’s rise to fame with hyrbid technology is one which has been questioned repeatedly. From claims the technology was stolen, a CNW Marketing/Research which found that the popular hybrid was less environmentally friendly than a Hummer H2, or even allegations the Japanese government funded the Prius. The list goes on and on and it’s clear that controversy is never far from Toyota’s hybrid program.
So today we can add yet another controversy to the list. With GM and the rest of the industry catching up to the Big T in terms of hybrid technology, Toyota is showing early signs of panic.
Reports from the U.S. today indicate that while Chevrolet is showing-off the new electric powered Volt, Toyota has gone as far as to raise concerns about the special-treatment promised for the Volt by new proposed legislation.
GM is hopeful that the new Volt will be given generous tax credits, a move which Toyota is fighting to stop. A Toyota executive recently told a congressional committee that the government should not enact laws that benefit only one plug-in hybrid design.
“(pending legislation) redefines plug-in electric vehicles to seemingly eliminate consumer tax credits for all but one plug-in vehicle design. Toyota believes this approach is counterproductive. It will discourage manufacturers from developing and consumers from purchasing ‘blended’ plug-ins that are affordable to the greatest number of consumers.”Robert Wimmer of Toyota said.
Toyota has been repeatedly delayed with the launch of the new Prius. No longer the only real hybrid on the market, the next-generation Prius has a lot to live up to. What we know, is that the Japanese giant has added to the new Prius’ battery pack, making it capable of running longer in all-electric mode.
The company plans to unveil the new Prius by 2010. Perhaps, right before the Volt, which is also scheduled to go on sale in 2010.
The difference between the Volt and the new Prius? The Volt is a true electric car, using a battery pack rated at 16 kilowatt hours, the vehicle is capable of running on electricity alone for about 60km, something even the new Prius can’t do.
Yes, it does have a conventional petrol engine, but that is primarily to recharge batteries and extend range. The Volt’s battery pack is larger than that of the existing Prius and the one being developed.
The new laws proposed in the U.S. will give tax credits to plug-ins with at least 6 kilowatt-hours of electric power. Credits would reach $7,500 for light-duty vehicles.
Is Toyota scared of the Volt? Should it be?
Meanwhile, General Motors Vice Chairman Bob Lutz wrote a lengthy defence of the newly unveiled Chevrolet Volt on his GM fastlane blog yesterday.
Here is a copy of the posting:
We’ve weathered a lot of skepticism since the Chevrolet Volt concept was introduced at the 2007 Detroit show. The Volt has been called “vaporware” by some members of the media. We’ve heard executives from other manufacturers tell the press that the battery technology won’t work. We’ve even been accused of using the Volt to “greenwash” our image.
Well, as everyone knows now, the Volt is real, and the covers have come off. And it represents nothing less than the first step in the reinvention of the automobile.
The vehicle’s design has come under some criticism, most of it, to me, unwarranted. The challenge to the designers wasn’t to design the most beautiful car imaginable and accept the compromises you have to make to do so. It was, make no compromise to fuel efficiency and electric range, and then do the most beautiful design possible, around those aerodynamic dictates.
When you look at the exterior of the Volt, you might notice certain aerodynamic shapes and design elements of some other cars you might see on the road. But beneath the skin, it shares very little with any other car that’s ever existed. So I submit that while it’s typically design that makes an emotional connection with buyers, in this case, the Volt is going to be bought for emotional reasons, but it will be for the emotion tied to the technology contained therein.
The Volt means a lot to General Motors, and to the industry, on a variety of levels. First of all, this is solid technology that is going to be proven reliable. It’s a practical way that we can electrify the automobile and drastically reduce our dependency on imported petroleum. It’s also important to GM to help reinforce and continue its proud history of technological innovation, and to help restore the image of leadership that accompanied that history.
In terms of the impact of Volt on the automobile industry, I think you’ll see lithium-ion technology filter out to the rest of the industry, even to our competitors who initially said it wouldn’t work. I think they’ve figured out that we may well be onto a winning formula here, with 40 miles of driving powered by electricity from a battery and a small engine — powered by gasoline or E85 — to create additional electricity to power the vehicle for several hundred additional miles. I suspect most of our competitors will have vehicles with technology similar to the Volt within four or five years.
What does that mean for society at large? I think it can have an enormous benefit. Our statistics show that 78 percent of Americans drive 40 miles a day or less. That means that nearly 80 percent of Americans can commute powered by electricity from the grid, never using a drop of gas.
When we achieve substantial production, and if our competitors do as well, and the public takes to this new way of driving — and there’s no doubt in my mind they will — we will drastically reduce gasoline and/or diesel consumption and we will simultaneously be drastically reducing our dependency on oil. This puts the country in a much more comfortable place geopolitically and also helps the environment. So at this point, I think it’s very hard to overestimate the importance of the Volt for GM, for the industry and for society in general.
The production version of the Volt represents our progress, and our commitment to seeing that all become a reality in short order. We’d like nothing more than to see everyone drive a Volt and stop going to the gas pump so often to fill up on ever-more-expensive fuel imported from an ever-more-unstable part of the world.
With the Volt, you go home, you plug it in, and you’re done. And for roughly 80 cents’ worth of electricity, you’ve got a fully-charged battery, ready to take on another forty miles of gas-free and tailpipe-emission-free driving. If that’s greenwashing, then come on in — the water’s fine.
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Tags: chevrolet volt
As we know, when emissions don’t come from the car’s tailpipe they come from the industry that created it. These guys have to stop saying emission free. There’s no such thing.
……………..In fact the ‘fine’ water is coming from the hydrogen car way out in front.
My god this article appears very differently in international media…
The problem is that the us governtmtent is going to susidise volt ownership to the tune of about $7500 in tax credits.
My god watch this turn into a GM vs Toyota thread.
Dont make Toyota angry. they have the time and the money to completly take over the auto indusrty. the name of the game is world dominance and they play to win..
While I’m not a fan of hybrids it is good to see one that isn’t ugly. Glad they didn’t make it look like the concept volt
Out of the frying pan into the fire, reduce oil use and increase the use of coal. Hardly the answer the environment needs. Nice try GM but the answer to the worlds problems it is not. I agree WVB hydrogen is a better alternative.
What is GM’s history of ’success’ in this High tech field of ALT energy cars… Oh thats right, they crushed the EV1… Hehe
It’s such a sign of desperation that they are hyping a car which MIGHT appear in 3 years time.. Some banks in the US thought they would be around for years and closed on Monday… GM might be the same.
I’m sure i will get alot of ‘anti GM’ and ‘anti enviro’ answer’s but thats not the case. I just hate really, really overhyped, hail mary pass crap like this.
Is it still looking like it will be AUD$50,000 when Holden starts to sell it?
It’s kinda cute how Toyota objects to GM getting Gov’t help in the USA,
when here in AU they are only too happy to accept it.
Bloody hypocrites. Hope the Volt steamrolls the Prius into oblivion.
First they made an electric car that was then taken back and crushed by GM, still know one really knows why (hire from your local video store “who killed the electric car”. Now it is back with a new body around it. I bet GM will only allow you to Lease one, if you do you should keep an eye out for a tow truck coming you way.
Jimbo,
Cant see this making it to left drive but working on theory I would guess about 65,000 to 70,000. *meh*
Love the bullet points reckless1, Their really working for you. One finger typing?
60KM range on electricity is hardly ground breaking for so much hype … and lets not forget tht is the expected range… real world and lab figures never really match….
anyway the shape of the car is soo confused … on the top its trying to look like a different car to the bottom …
perhaps some design cues from Daewoo??
I dont think Toyota is as worried as GM is – or else GM would not be creating soo much hype about a car thts not due for release for the next 2-3 yrs…
forgot to add if the GM reliability is anything to go by…. all the batteries would fail on the Volt and you would be running a normal petrol engine car….
isnt that what happened to the “mild hybrid” suvs from GM recently….
In all this heady Volt-o-mania, it should be remembered that GM is trying to boldly go where no lithium-ion battery has gone before. The vehicle’s success (i.e. its ability to live-up to the performance-related hype perpetrated its corporate shills) depends entirely on its li-ion battery pack’s ability to hold a suitable charge, discharge that charge, recharge that charge, and do so for a good long time, without losing its ability to charge, discharge and recharge appropriately. A Reuters article [via Planet Ark] kinda makes you wonder about all that… “Among the challenges to overcome are extending the life of high-power lithium batteries and bringing down their relatively high cost, Tien Duong of the US Department of Energy said on the sidelines of a lithium battery conference held at this government laboratory. ‘Life means 10 years, plus. For hybrids we know (their batteries) last 10 years plus.’
I don’t think that Toyota are worried at all… and such an assertion based purely on the facts in this article is pretty silly. Quite a misleading article title in my opinion.
There is obviously more than 1 way to make a hybrid car. And Toyota is taking exception to any proposed legislation that gives tax benefits to only 1 particular design of a hybrid car. How is that being scared :|
I just searched the market capitalisation of the auto companies.
Toyota is 158 billion, Honda is 60 billion, Ford is 10 billion and GM is 7 billion.
Dan the man and Salesman the shonky sales duet heaping shit on GM again. Getting a bit predictable guys.LOL
Haven’t u got some minds to play with or shonky sales movies to watch?LOL
At least the Volt appears to be more inspirational than the new Prius design if similar to the picture.
Toyota gone out of their way to make it uglier.
Who do u think got Toyota started in the first place of course the Japanese government.
I agree with u Reckless 1. Flat as a tack.LOL.
If Toyota didn’t complain when the Japanese government subsidised the development of the Prius then they shouldn’t whinge, whine and go on and on trying to stop the American government giving an American company some subsidies to build a proper hybrid!!!
AAAHHH so we meet again Mr. Realcars…..When ever GM’s under attack, we can be sure to find you.
Shonkey sales duet hay, then it’s off to the dodgy bat cave to counter attack this misgivious misfit.
Ill point at you my FOCUS ON THE CARS RAY GUN, Zzzzzzaaaaaappppp. Don’t thank me, im just doing my job….
The Big T is worried…worried why it produces boring cars and borrowed technology, and then the Volt crash lands the Big T and we have a stylish package and sweet looker. Something Toyota has yet to learn is how to give a car a soul and utter classic lines. One simply has to forget whichever car maker they follow and realise this Volt is a stunner and will be destined to sell well if priced right! And to all you negative obsessed Big T lovers and not Holden lovers…….lets just see how much this may sell for and reserve judgement on it! Seems to me Holden with Mike Simcoe, etc design hot lookers and this is a classic looking kickarrse car and Priarse should be worried! WHY… this car looks like it has soul!
SALESMAN…..I think you need to be beamed up with your drivel! Utter drivel!
I hope this will work for GM, just hope that toyota doesn’t spoil the party like they tend to do. This is a nice looking car, some quirky bits here and there, but still a good looking car.
Yes and I’ll reply beam me up no sign of intelligent life in this showroom.LOL
All it would take to kill the Volt is for ONE car’s lithium-ion battery pack to catch fire in an owners garage and burn the house down.
Considering how much of a fire a laptop battery makes makes a Volt should be a biggee.
I’ll take the middle road.
I hope this Volt works out for GM.
I hope the new Prius will work for Toyota.
Why? Advancements in tech is the way to go! I don’t care who..
Scared, perhaps not to that point, worried more like it, US is a big battleground for Toyota sales and therefore would strike at any opportunity to ensure a level or self benefiting market position. Unlike AU, this is small fry here so much so we have our government actually trying to lure Toyota with that Hybrid Camry.
I hope the Volt trounces the Prius, so that Toyota can actually wake up and smell the roses and make a car truly ingenious or cutting edge.
I don’t think Toyota are overly concerned.
For a start the Volt is a $40,000 small production run car.
Secondly, Toyota has the engineering resources to design a car very quickly, there may even be one mostly done. They are probably just waiting on the safety of the batteries.
They may decide to see if the GM Volt blows up, if it doesn’t they can jump in.
Hey is this right on the cost of charging the Volt?
Volt has 16 kilowatt hour battery
I pay about 14 cents per kilowatt hour
That’s approx $2.24 with no losses, lets say $3.00 to charge the battery
$3 for 60km, not bad. In my car I could only go 20km with 2 litres.
Sound right? they say 80cents in the USA
Naughtyius Maxiumus Says
SALESMAN…..I think you need to be beamed up with your drivel! Utter drivel!
Realcars Says
Yes and I’ll reply beam me up no sign of intelligent life in this showroom.LOL
In response to your insults on a level i hope you understand.
Nah nah, nah nah nah i don’t care.
Ah I’m back..
This has turned into a Fight over who has the best imaginary friend… I love it when people feel an affinity (not a nissan luxury brand!) with a corporation that see’s you not as a customer, but a hassle to be tolerated.. too funny.
In reality there are probably only about four or five people on this site who get to drive a different car home every night… with a fuel card… sucks to be you.
There are about the same number of ‘posters’ who personally insult others at any opportunity…
Anyway back to the VOLT. Anyone here want to but a first Gen laptop or mobile with their dodgy L-ION batteries? didn’t think so… So what makes you think that GM, that has made more mistakes in the past ten years than any other auto company in the world, going to get this right?
It’s like rocky and bullwinkle, ‘watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat, this time it’ll work’ ahhh NO. EPIC FAIL warning…
From wiser heads than here…. Truthaboutcars says..
‘But the production Volt brings to light a grim and stark reality: it’s just an ordinary-looking car. Where’s the (Pontiac) excitement and fun in that? Yes, GM has made an important (and necessary) step in the long-term electrification of the automobile. But it’s hardly alone in that. And it may not be all that exciting, either. In fact, the electrification of the automobile represents the triumph of the left-brain/form follows function/Japanese approach to car building: rational, systematic, measured integration of technology, continuous improvement, and cost-effective (profitable) production. The very qualities that lead to the Asian dominance of the American car market, and cars like the Prius (there never was a Prius concept, it just appeared one day, production-ready).
The glorious fifties and sixties are long gone and dead, despite Detroit’s best efforts to evoke them with retro pony cars and Volt dream-car concepts. And the much-hated Prius represents the force that killed that era. No wonder so much of the scorn being dished out at gm-volt.com is laced with Japanese model names: “Ugh; it looks like a bastard child of a Prius and a Civic.” What the GM faithful were looking for, what Lutz got them excited about, was the equivalent of the 1963 Riviera coupe powered by a nuclear reactor. And they were willing to pony-up. But what they’re seeing now is a forty-grand Cobalt. And falling gas prices. And rising electric rates. Suddenly, the Prius and Insight look… not so ugly after all.’
ooppppss.
Danman, absolute GOLD
Well, I think that sums it all up. If you are looking for a verbal tongue lashing then here is where you will find it. Now back to what I am sure the majority of are here for, the cars.
Danman and Salesman one person Golfy…………Dingo????
Only a love child between DanMan and the Sales man would be as ugly AND as useless as a Prius!!!!!
Sarcasm is most often used as an unintelligent form of humor to satirically and paradoxilly portray the minutinae and uselessness in some aspects of everyday life.
It is strongly associated with stupidity, with some definitions classifying it as a type of verbal unintelligence intended to insult or wound, you have achieved nothing in your life so in order to make yourself feel better you stoop to the only thing you understand. I blame the parents; did mum and dad not hug you enough? Or read bedtime stories?
Please EXPLAIN???????
I would say yes it is Carl!
What? Does this car really only have a 16 kilowatt hour battery?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
So say you drive using 64kw (pretty reasonable assumption?) you can go a whole 15 minutes before the battery is flat?
Hey BM……That Mr Sales man he teached us real good with his big fancy words, i wonder if i could ever be learned to use big words like he dunn???
Hey, hey ,hey.
No i’m in Brisbane.. Salesmen i think resides interstate. we both post the same kind of things but at very different times… I made the point earlier but it bears repeating. some people reagrd this site as an extension of the pub with their mates having some ‘banter’ over a few beers whilst others see it as a place to share personel experience with like minded people..
This site really needs logins with profiles and the ability to upload photo’s etc. would really personise things which in my experience eases tensions. IMO
Danman,
No i am a Brizzy lad too, Sunshine Coast. More to the point that is a great idea. Car Advice, can we make this happen?
Nice Salesman,
Shame about the Rain today…
Will try not to pump out too many sales into your PMA, LOL.
Cant believe people will drive 100 klm’s round trip to save themselves 50$. hehe.
I dont know about caradvice.. I emailed them and their website designer with some suggestions to improve their ‘unique hits’ and therefore increase there advertising rates… Good business. there only seem to be about 45 regular commentators.. unless they are doppelgangers..
Danman, Car Advice already have a full-fledged forum, with login, avatars, pic upload, smileys, etc. Just click “FORUM” up the top.
The relevance of the drivel esposed by Salesman highlights the inept devoid character he possesses to justify his existence with his gibberish. The co-efficient of linear expansion of your drivel is felt from here and you better calm it down as if symptons persist, then see your quack! You will need a whole flotilla of them to help you!
Morning Watto,seems someone has forgotten to take the Skittso meds again……….oh well let them talk amongst them self!
Hahaha NM your so eloquent with your wording,so descriptive and sooooooooooo right!
Will it ever stop…..stupid rain, bring on summer.
I don’t get to many from Brisbane, more north like Gympie, Roma, Mt Isa ETC. If they call from Brisbane they are price shoppers mostly, (Up the tree they go).
Coefficient of Linear ExpansionThe change in length per unit length resulting from a one degree rise in temperature, expressed in degrees.
‘Is this what you mean?’ NM hmmm, ok.
Thanks for the forum tip.. Lacks the flexability of Jalopnik or truthaboutcars… which i also post on in north America..
By the way. there is no hyphen in coefficient. just saying..
Some people on this site(you know who you are) bark from the porch.. some run with the dogs! No one has actually opposed any or the points i have raised to express a veiwpoint here. they have just attacked me.. A compliment i guess…
Pioneer work with the lithium battery began in 1912 under G.N. Lewis but it was not until the early 1970s when the first non-rechargeable lithium batteries became commercially available. lithium is the lightest of all metals, has the greatest electrochemical potential and provides the largest energy density for weight.
Attempts to develop rechargeable lithium batteries failed due to safety problems. Because of the inherent instability of lithium metal, especially during charging, research shifted to a non-metallic lithium battery using lithium ions. Although slightly lower in energy density than lithium metal, lithium-ion is safe, provided certain precautions are met when charging and discharging. In 1991, the Sony Corporation commercialized the first lithium-ion battery. Other manufacturers followed suit.
The energy density of lithium-ion is typically twice that of the standard nickel-cadmium. There is potential for higher energy densities. The load characteristics are reasonably good and behave similarly to nickel-cadmium in terms of discharge. The high cell voltage of 3.6 volts allows battery pack designs with only one cell. Most of today’s mobile phones run on a single cell. A nickel-based pack would require three 1.2-volt cells connected in series.
Lithium-ion is a low maintenance battery, an advantage that most other chemistries cannot claim. There is no memory and no scheduled cycling is required to prolong the battery’s life. In addition, the self-discharge is less than half compared to nickel-cadmium, making lithium-ion well suited for modern fuel gauge applications. lithium-ion cells cause little harm when disposed.
Despite its overall advantages, lithium-ion has its drawbacks. It is fragile and requires a protection circuit to maintain safe operation. Built into each pack, the protection circuit limits the peak voltage of each cell during charge and prevents the cell voltage from dropping too low on discharge. In addition, the cell temperature is monitored to prevent temperature extremes. The maximum charge and discharge current on most packs are is limited to between 1C and 2C. With these precautions in place, the possibility of metallic lithium plating occurring due to overcharge is virtually eliminated.
Aging is a concern with most lithium-ion batteries and many manufacturers remain silent about this issue. Some capacity deterioration is noticeable after one year, whether the battery is in use or not. The battery frequently fails after two or three years. It should be noted that other chemistries also have age-related degenerative effects. This is especially true for nickel-metal-hydride if exposed to high ambient temperatures. At the same time, lithium-ion packs are known to have served for five years in some applications.
Disadvantages….
Requires protection circuit to maintain voltage and current within safe limits.
Subject to aging, even if not in use – storage in a cool place at 40% charge reduces the aging effect.
Transportation restrictions – shipment of larger quantities may be subject to regulatory control. This restriction does not apply to personal carry-on batteries. (See last section)
Expensive to manufacture – about 40 percent higher in cost than nickel-cadmium.
Not fully mature – metals and chemicals are changing on a continuing basis.
Salesperson,
wow. You, you with your ’science’… LOL.
Chances of the Volt making it to the showroom with 80% of it’s claims intatct… about 15%…
Cut and Paste people. It really ’sells’ your opinions if you have some facts to back them up.
Not ‘my mate this’ or ‘i heard that’… Reference your sources and i am wrong or proved overwise i will defeer to your point of veiw..
The Salesman says
“Pioneer work with the lithium battery began in 1912 under G.N. Lewis…..”
I put that into Google and found the real source with the first hit. Plagiarism is not nice.
Could be a good idea to name the source when you copy/paste to give credit where it’s due.
SamR,
It is a document that supports my comments. Glad to see you took notice. Plagiarism is when you copy someone’s work and make it your own; this is a direct cut and paste.
Salesman
By not naming the author, or referencing the source, you’ve effectively made it your own, which is plagiarism, and illegal, and in the literary world means your character and moral fibre are on a par with a certain bearded chap who lives in a cave somewhere in remote Afghanistan. First name Osama.
Anyway credit to you for doing your homework and bringing some facts to the thread, but as DanMan say’s; “Reference your sources and i am wrong or proved overwise i will defeer to your point of veiw..” I think his sentance structure and some of his spelling is a little odd but I think you know what he means.
One final point, wow, a car salesman that knowingly breaks the law…! Have you ever been to Afghanistan?
I see the humor in what you are saying. And I take your point.
I am actually a licensed dealer so breaking the law is not an option for me because if I lose my license, I can not trade, if I can not trade then my wife and kids will go hungry. So it is not worth it to me…
On the one final point, I hung up the turban some time ago. Sometimes I wake up at night shouting.
“I kill you, you bastards!!!!!” but it is controled with meds
To get back on topic, to rubbish the Volt as useless because it needs coal burning electricity to recharge is a hopelessly thin and desperate argument.
We should all hope the Volt makes it to market, to challenge Prius and Insight to greater development, and to give those seeking alternatives to traditionally powered cars more choice.
In itself it may not be the answer, but if you live within 30 kilometres of your work and you drive, the savings on your fuel bill will be immense, and if you have had solar installed into your home, then your fuel bill will be zero.
It needs to be here now.
‘which is plagiarism, and illegal, and in the literary world means your character and moral fibre are on a par with a certain bearded chap who lives in a cave somewhere in remote Afghanistan. First name Osama.’
LOL Imagine the conversation in guantanamo!’what are you in for?’ I blew up the Marriot in islamabad,you?’
‘plagarism of wikipedia!’
‘allah akbar!!!’
Do the crime, do the time..
burnouts?
The volt looks good and i hope it sells but i dont think Toyota is worried at all. The big T is almost never first at anything, its a very conservitave company just like most of its loyal customers. When it decides to make its own improved copy of the volt it will quietly walk all over GM as it always has.