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Hybrid and diesel Commodores two years away

By David Twomey |

2010 Holden Commodore hybrid and diesel

The boss of General Motors Asia Pacific has said that hybrid and diesel powered Holden Commodores are only two years away.

Eco Commodore

At a media briefing in Melbourne today (Monday) GM Group Vice President and President of GM Asia Pacific, Mr Nick Reilly, said that the new power trains for the Holden Commodore could come to market as soon as 2010.

Mr Reilly, who is in Melbourne for the corporations quarterly regional board meeting and to review current and future product with senior Asia pacific executives revealed the future product plans as part of a wide-ranging discussion on Australian car market.

GM Group Vice President and President of GM Asia Pacific Mr Nick ReillySuggesting that not only hybrid and diesel models were under consideration Mr Reilly made it clear that GM Holden would sustain interest in its large car product by developing a range of fuel options.

He also openly cited LPG (Liquid Petroleum Gas) , CNG (Compressed Natural Gas) and E85 (85% ethanol/petrol blend) as options that needed to be considered as viable “short-term” options for powering motor vehicles in all markets.

Mr Reilly said GM was working across a range of technologies and added that LPG and E85 would probably be the quickest to market.

However, he added that diesels were a priority – ‘we already have diesels in several of our cars in Australia’.

“We don’t yet have diesel in Commodore but that will come, “ he said. “As for hybrids, again we will introduce them in the next couple of years.”

As well as revealing that diesel and hybrid variants of the Commodore were under development, Mr Reilly also suggested that GM’s turbo four-cylinder petrol ECOTEC powerplant, already suggested as an option for the Chevrolet Camaro that’s been developed for the North American market in Australia, was a possibility for the Commodore.

Asked if the turbo four-cylinder petrol engine could be used in the Commodore in the future, Mr Reilly, replied:” that is certainly a sensible suggestion. It makes a lot of sense and therefore we are probably looking at it”.

He refused to be drawn further on the prospect of a four-cylinder Commodore.

His statements follow the recent announcement by new Ford Australia President Bill Osbourne that the Falcon would get a diesel engine in 2010 and come as Toyota grapples with pressure from the Federal Government to build a hybrid Camry in Australia.

Mr Reilly admitted that GM had dropped the ball on hybrid passenger cars, favouring development in large displacement engines, such as those used in heavy vehicles, and had given archrival Toyota a clear run with vehicles such as the Prius.

Eco Commodore

He said GM had not recognised immediately that the car buying public would pay for the application of hybrid technology in smaller engine vehicles, where the fuel efficiencies were much smaller.

“Our strength in hybrids has tended to be in larger vehicles,” he said.

Mr Reilly added that a hybrid Commodore could be one of the first GM hybrids on the market, adding that he would put a timeframe of “a couple of years” on it.
Mr Reilly added that there was not a priority on hybrid versus diesel, saying: “Honestly I think we need both.”

“I think we need to offer a variety if different answers and we are able to do that as part of GM worldwide.”

The green light to hybrid and diesel Commodores appeared to take other GM executives at the briefing by surprise and GM Holden Managing Director Mark Reuss has not yet announced anything confirming the proposals.

Mr Reilly’s public support for the proposals certainly means they will get a strong hearing within the company’s product planning forums. Holden engineers have been working on both diesel and hybrid power trains for some time, but have previously received little support from the wider GM.

David Twomey


 
  • Rightio.

    Interesting…

    Anti-spam word is “Faster” but im thinking this will be “slower”…..

  • TP

    Goodbye Falcon.

  • http://jaguar XR_2 Capri

    they have all ready got the Ecodore in a museum

  • No Name

    Diesel commodor -two years away – they must be joking. Honestly how long can it take to the buy a manufacturers engine (VM italy) and lift it ino the Commie. Don’t forget Opel had diesel Omega (Euro Commodor) year back so its been done. I would admit the Hybrid bit, due to batteries, is in reality some way off but engineering a simple diesel to in an engine bay is toadys knowledge.
    It begs the question what have Holden been doing for the last year or two. Obviouly nothing but watching the competition run away over the horizon. I question the leadership!!

  • Richo

    No Name, i dont see any diesel powered falcons or aurions driving over the horizon buddy! Holden will be the first of the aussies to have diesels, and it looks like the first to have hybrids, yet you still find a reason to criticise?

  • Jimbo

    Finally a diesel Commodore. Hey TP Ford has hinted they may have a 2.7 diesel in the pipeline for the Falcon. Maybe this will mean they may both live on in the wake of the petrol price doom.

  • Golfschwein

    I would be interested to know how the diesel motor from the Captiva would go in the Commodore. It’s there now and apparently moves the Captiva along respectably.

    More food for thought: the 3.2 litre HFV6 from the Captiva could be a nicer base engine for the Omega. Yes, more expensive, as I think its features are on par with the 195 kw 3.6, but probably nicer, and would probably give the immediate fuel economy benefits everyone’s looking for.

    Okay, just thinking aloud. Direct injection’s on its way, as is the death of the 4 speed and if we have to wait 2 years for diesel and hybrids, the wait could be worth it.

  • ultimatefarmer

    Has anyone considered the price of diesel
    Here where I live it’s $1.74.9
    20 cents dearer than unleaded petrol

  • No Name

    Jimbo – That 2.7 litre donk for the Falcon as in the Jag by a 3.0litre donk. So mayby thats the one for the Falcon as its currently in the UK Ranger

  • silky

    Exactly farmer, that and the additional cost at purchase tends to get overlooked in favour of “rideing on waves of torque…” scenario.

  • No Name

    sorry meant to say the 2.7 being replaced by a 3.0litre. apologies

  • Pablo

    I don’t think any Aussie manufacturer would develop a hybrid without the assistance of government funds.
    Our market is just too small to develop a hybrid.
    I say they will use technology from overseas – probably the US.

  • No Name

    Richo – I could argue but my point is made. Holden are too slow in realising the market. Two years time with diesel/petrol prices rising daily diesel may not be the way to go then. Perhaps not a criticism just an observation.

  • Golfschwein

    Of course, Ford already supply a large, modern, diesel-powered sedan – the Mondeo. I saw one as a taxi for the first time a few days ago.

  • o

    what the hell are they doing thtey already make a 2.7 litere v6 hy not use that for gods sake in 2006 they siad ther would be a diesel option

  • trackdaze

    Golfshwien, it would be a false economy to put the 3.2 V6 in the commodore the little torque to 3.6 has would be non existant in the 3.2 and the driver would constantly be “into” it to keep it up with traffic.

    Need an example? Just look at the falcon with its beefy 4.0 using 10.1 litres versus the 3.6 commodores 11 odd litres. The falcons engine torque is perfectly suited to move 1.7odd tonnes. or maybe you’d prefer a 4cyl SUV that people are mistakenly moving into under the premise that because its a four cylinder it’ll use less. Um, no.

  • T

    how will future backwards hat P plater kids modify their commodores????

    bigger generators?

    propane injection on the diesels…. hey theres an idea :)

  • senator

    the 2.0 litre they are talking about is the one which will be a option in the new camoro it’s a 2.0 direct injected turbo which produces 194KW and 353NM, not a bad option, soon all gm engines will have direct injection. even gm’s ls3 will got direct injection.

  • http://navelcontemplation.blogspot.com/2007/03/i-don-get-fashion.html supercujo

    Ethanol blend fuels are not even a short term option. They are a pipedream option. Anything that competes for land with the production of food is not a way to power our transportation.

  • Tom

    GM needs to stop issuing press releases and actually develop the technology. BMW came out of no where with its recent hybrid releases.

  • http://caradvice Blue Blood

    Ford already have the diesel lined up 2010 for the
    Territory who would think its NOT going to be dropped into the Falcon only a D*ckhead.

    Till then all Falcon models except for the G6ET
    get the E-Gas(Dedicated LPG) engine
    as a Factory option.

    GO FORD

  • Tony M

    I am a great believer in the diesel option, but first we need to improve the quality of the diesel (sulphur content)fuel in Australia.
    I believe this article is nothing more than a fishing exercise by GMH. Both Ford and Holden, if they wanted to could put a diesel motor in their large cars now, but of course GM and Ford America have to OK it first. Our boys (GMH and Ford Aust.) are slowly sinking into the sunset while their parent companies in the US are trying to figure out what to do.
    As for the Japanese car companies, Toyota, Nissan, etc. the only diesels they have are ones in their 4X4′s and they are small fry when compared with the Mercs, Audi, BMW’s etc in Europe.
    Reality is GMH and Ford Aust need to look at Europe for direction not the USA/Japan. Our big car industry which is the Commodore, Falcon and Aurion/Camry might go down the sink if they don’t change dirction now.
    If you want a good option then consider a 2.5 litre direct injection turbo diesel which also has LPG injected into it. This is and Australia design and it works extremely well.

  • si1982

    Holden and Ford could introduce stop start tech in the mean time and it would be a better solution than having to wait for 2 yrs only find more and more delays….. i mean when has a project gone as per the original plan…. diesel is very expensive and thats fine for some people i guess, but even thats bound to run out sometime…
    bio fuel is a good gimmick … but frankly i would take “food” over “fuel for my car” anyday…. Holden jumped on the Hybrid bandwagon after Toyota revealed plans to build hybrid camrys’ in australia…

  • VW_Freak

    LOL… they’re considering bringing back a 4cyl Commodore? Who remembers the breathtaking Starfire 4? Hahahahaha!!!

  • Adam (aka Mada)

    Where’s the diesel/hybrid camry/aurion!?

    Thought so…

  • Andrew

    Blue Blood Says: Ford already have the diesel lined up 2010 for the
    Territory who would think its NOT going to be dropped into the Falcon only a D*ckhead.

    The problem with the 2.7 diesel that Ford has access to is that while being a fantastic engine it is an expensive one. It mainly powers premium cars at the moment like the top of the range Pug 407 and LR Discovery where it adds $6K – $14K to the price. I suggest that if it is offered in a Falcon or the Territory it will be at the higher end of the model range.

  • trackdaze

    Agree with Tony M. Stop start technology would be good.

    although I dont think it mixes to well with turbocharged engines.

    One question: who will buy a $45k hybrid commodore that will use about 7litres per100 with a 0-100 in the 11 second bracket?

  • Carl

    Naughtyius Maximus…….if your out there please keep us up dated on the hydrogen on demand system that you installed on your Falcon ute!!!! quite a few bloggers are interested in what sort of results you are getting!!!

  • Snowman

    I think the CNG Natural Gas option is one that should be pushed – Ive seen plenty of taxis that run on this fuel, and it doesnt seem to worry them. Every home that gets Natural gas can refuel their own car at night – epsecially with all the gas fields this country has!

  • Carl

    Snowman, you’re absolutely correct we are supposed to have 100 years supply of natural gas if we were to keep it strategically for internal consumption BUT our corrupt governments are giving the stuff away to China and Japan for 5 cents a litre and we have to pay 60 cents for LPG!!!

  • Richo

    apparently the VF commodore update will be all about fuel economy. There will be some cosmetic bits and peices and they will no doubt ramp up the suspension tuning to match the FG falcon, but the main deal will be fuel economy. To that regard you can expect direct injection on all V6 models, displacement on demand on all V8 models, and possibly a 6 speed auto accross the entire range, even for omega. Although the more likely option is 5 speed auto for omega and 6 speed for the rest.

    I don’t think it was any secret that a diesel would lob in 2010, but a hybrid? thats a bit new, but then again, they did do a hybrid comodore demo a few years back so clearly they have had it atleast in the back of their minds for quite a while now

  • Watto_Cobra

    60cent/L for LPG Carl? I wish! I’ve been paying 71.9 since a week before Xmas. We are getting gouged, but that’s nothing new.

  • Golfschwein

    Trackdaze, I was really just thinking aloud. Months ago, WHEELS ran an article on the potential fuel economy gains for Commodore by comparing differing technology and options. Yes, the smaller engine would yield no more than a 5% economy gain. The thing is, it would be sweeter to drive than the base 3.6 and the GM man who made the announcement says engine rationalisation is the key. At least, it did in Carpoint’s story.

    So, something’ll get the chop. As the 3.2V6 in the Captiva travels the world, and the 3.6V6 base engine growls away in Omegas and Berlinas, I imagine the latter will go sooner.

    Who knows, direct injection could sweeten all of them up, assuming the right things are done with harmonics to counter the increased noise from the new injection system.

    With new trannies as well, it’ll be a whole different ball game.

  • Bavarian Missile

    Morning guys……….hands up who wants a hybrid Holden??mmmm Bout as many as those that will want a Hybrid BMW……not many! Then again beats driving the worlds ugliest hybrid……Prius

    Diesel could be interesting especially if their getting their
    technology from BMW who put their hand up to help GM in the states.

  • Golfschwein

    Oh, good morning Bavarian Missile. Lovely day up in the snow country?

    I reckon there’ll be a market for hybrid Commodore for sure. And if the numbers for Australian sales don’t make the cut, what the heck! Spread the numbers to the Americas (North and South, remember – check out http://www.chevrolet.com.br and find Omega) and the Middle East!

    The Yanks’d take to a Pontiac G8 with a hybrid set-up like apple pie .

  • Bavarian Missile

    MMMM,true forgot about the Americans.they do love their Hybrids…

    back later time to chat to Wheelnut whos now at lunch!

  • Carl

    Watto-Cobra…..actually I’m paying 60.9 at my local independent and 57.9 at my local shell if i happen to have a 4 cent docket or else it’s 61.9, still it seems a lot cheaper than where you live….I’m in the inner city of Sydney but around the south west I’ve seen it couple of cents cheaper! the other day where i filled up petrol was 149 cents and diesel was 170 cents, that’s pretty rough for people trying to do the right thing and switching to diesel!

  • trackdaze

    Golfsy, captiva v6 weigh’s about the same as a commodore its official fuel use is 11.6…think the commodore is 11.2. thats the official fiqure in real life it’d use allot more than the commodore because the engine would have to have its neck rung. Autoweb http://www.autoweb.com.au tested one and returned 14.5litres they also cited the engine was course,gravelly just like the 3.6.

    Like i said its about platform efficiency. Same reason a 1.8 corolla is a false economy as compared to its 2.0competitors.

  • Watto_Cobra

    Carl, I’m at Albury-Wodonga. It was 54.9 before Xmas. I was expecting the price to go back down after New Years. No such luck :-(

    Looking back through my log, I’ve paid an extra $193 so far this year at 71.9 instead of 54.9. Still cheaper than fuel, I guess.

  • Richo

    Golfschwein – and there it is! Thats why GM would be keen to do a hybrid Commodore, because pontiac would be able to sell more hybrid G8′s then they could possibly get their hands on!

    Interestingly, the hybrid drive system that GM uses in some of its larger american models was co-developed with BMW and Merceedes, and is the same system that BMW and Mercedes will be using in future years. The main difference between it and the toyota system is that rather then having a completely seperate petrol engine, electric engine and gearbox, the GM/BMW/Mercedes system integrates the electric motor into the gearbox, maining its exactly the same in many respects as a conventional drivetrain in the sense that a petrol engine bolts to a gearbox that bolts via a driveshaft to a diff. Obviously bootspace and a spare wheel will be lost to accomodate batteries so run flats will probably be required for this car, but it could be pretty cool

  • Carl

    Life is all about compromises you pay a bit more for fuel but I’m sure life’s a lot simpler in a large country town like Albury! One day I’ll get out of the Sydney rat race if it’s the last thing i do!!! Cheers mate….

  • http://realcars realcars

    Yeah Starfire Four wasn’t that a half Rs Holden engineering
    adventure. Take an ancient 2.85lite cast Iron OHV straight six and cut two cylinders off with a mig. Fit xu1 conrods and raise the redline from 4800 to 6000rpm. Fit the impossible to tune varajet carby and u have an engine that won’t idle smoothly under 1100rpm. They did last forever though.

  • http://realcars realcars

    forgot to mention the water injection on the Commodore version. The version in the Corona produced two less kilowatts but was nearly as smooth as a jap ohc four.

  • http://realcars realcars

    dough.air injection

  • http://realcars realcars

    I want to get the out of Sydney too!

  • JP

    for the premium you pay on diesel, the extra expense of a diesel motor and the sluggish performance compared to their ptrol counterparts i really cant see who apart from green fleet operators would buy one especially when no real savings to the fuel bill is made. i feel sorry for anyone getting stuck with one of these for a company car becasue the company they work for wants to improve its green image.

  • JP

    the hybrid i guess makes more sence because as stated by Richo the yanks will go crazy over it

  • http://www.ford.com.au GT 315

    Who give a crap

  • Tony M

    JP: I don’t know which diesel you are talking about but the European diesel leave all others for dead. Economical, servicing etc. They also have a tendency to go for 100,000s of kilometres.
    The reason they are so heavy is because they run close to 22 to 1 compression and need to be bullit proof.

  • JP

    im not doubting their reliability for a second as i know other wise. and in europe where diesel is a cheaper ulternative to petrol i have no doubt they are economical. but hear we pay such a high premium for diesel fuel i wonder if it would be economical at all.

  • Duck

    Good! :) Holden did the concept of the ECOmmodore on the VT before, remember anybody?

    But good the first diesel (probaly) and maybe hybrid aussie car!

    I hope holden offers a V6 diesel and the V8 turbo diesel also!

  • GhisGT

    Realcars: The Starfire and the XU1 are different rods, the Starfire is the stronger one of the two, hence why the are commonly used in high-po Holden sixes.

  • http://deathbypizza.net DeathByPizza

    The real issue Holden will have to deal with is the same one their V6 in the VE is dealing with now: Lack of low-end torque, so you have to rev the engine till it sounds like a blender filled with stones before it moves.

    Hybrid – Electric engine can deliver Torque from 0 RPM while petrol engine can do the rest up at highr speets
    Diesel – Great low end torque (esp if they go Turbo Diesel) but will restrict the overall RPM & KW output
    4 Cyl – Can tune them look like a V6 or I6 on paper but even with a turbo they lack the low-end torque needed to pull a heavy car like the commy.

  • Richo

    Duck, it will definetly be a V6 turbo diesel, however holden i very much doubt will be putting a V8 turbo diesel in any time soon. I think they will be stretched enough with a V6 petrol, V6 diesel, V8 and hybrid drivetrains. It costs alot of cash to engineer so many different drivetrains and i think 4 is probably the limit for the time being. Maybe the major VE upgrade (after the minor VF update) due in 2014 might see a 5th engine, but certainly not anytime soon

  • Bucket (Formerly Known as Chris)

    TP, your one liners astound me.
    Ford have already announced a Turbo Diesel Falcon for 2010.

    Just like the Prius, the long term running costs (ie Battery replacements costing $5000) will most likely scare off some from buying hybrids.

  • http://. Naughtyius Maximus

    Not to mention rubbishing diesels….

  • Wheelnut

    Senator: latest reports say that the Camaro won’t be offered with the Turbo 4cyl.. due to a bad reception from GM fans etc on various auto-blog websites in the USA.
    The majority of whom said it goes against the image of the original classic Camaro.. they would however; accept a V6

    I guess well have to wait until production starts in a couple of years which rumours suggest could be at Elizabeth as they are apparently looking at expanding the factory

  • Cameron

    Welcome to the 21st century GM.

    I agree with Snowman and Carl. CNG is a good long-term solution. Shame the government is another slave to OPEC. We should have our own CNG industry and have aussie made cars running dedicated engines. The government should also give tax credits to air and electric powered cars built here.

    *SIGH*

    Its time for me to wake up now. We all know the government isn’t proactive.
    Well……………….
    I’ve got a push bike for when I can’t afford fuel any more!!!

  • http://integra F6 310

    Bucket, TP astounds everybody wit his total crap comments. Ford will have diesel Falcon and Territory around 2010 and with Hybrid technology in the American Ford Escape could have that as well. TP……..just go away and sit by yourself in a TRD HI-Lux…….a joke sitting inside a joke !!!!

  • Bucket (Formerly Known as Chris)

    Agreed F6,

    TP- grow up and leave the inflammatory comments out.
    Ford announced two months ago they will have a TDi Falcon/Tezza in 2010…
    I’ve actually seen you be constructive with comments before…sometimes I wonder if there are a few people acting as TP on here…

  • No Name

    JP – Go and educate yourself regarding diesels, you\’re wrong on all counts. For starters modern diesels are producing the same if not more power than an equivalent petrol, they produce less CO2 (25%), go about 25 to 30% further on a litre. Generally go further between services (up to 32K km) between services, and theres loads of wooshy torque to play with.
    The negatives are: -
    -they cost more to purchase $2-3K
    -Diesel fuel as you know cost 15% more to buy
    -they produce more NOX (attributable to acid rain)than petrol in their early years but less as they get older.
    -they burn more engine oil (mine uses about a litre between 32k services)

  • Andrew M

    Bucket,
    ford actually announced diesel terry and falcon about 12 months ago.
    i dont see why this article lays credit to the new CEO for the diesel committment.
    perhaps he has just re released that in a speech or something, because it was announced before Billy boy took over.
    gee people have short memories

    the real reason a diesel falcon and commy isnt here yet is because it would be a lesson in false economy

    whats the best a diesel falcon would get?
    say 8.0L at the absolute best. thats a saving of 2L/100k.
    and to save that 2L you would have to pay 30c more for your fuel and 4K more during the initial purchase.

    the thing would never save you a cent, let alone pay off your investment.

    i say a dedicated LPG vehicle with a decent brain injecting the stuff would be a far better way to invest a bit of development.
    ford is 3/4 of the way there but are just lacking a better computer. yes the current one is good and proven to save serious bucks, but it could be so much better by the use of the latest Vapour tech that is already on our shores.

    a decent vapour system in the falcon could see it match both power and economy of its petrol relative

    come on Carl, give us a yeee haaar in favour of LPG. (you know you want to)

  • Kenny

    There is nothing unique in getting a diesel engine from some Diesel engine supplier. Nearly all the Japanese & Euro manufacturers have diesel engine options in other markets. As far as what I have read before 2010 Mazda, Honda, Nissan & Mitsubishi will have clean next generation Diesel engines in most of their Australian sold Models.

    Direct injection engines are not new technology first direct injection engine was developed by Bosh in 1952 for Mercedes-Benz 300SL. In the 1990s Mitsubishi perfected the GDI and patented it, built over million GDI engines for Europe and Asian markets. So Holden is not doing anything new with the Direct Injection engine.

  • Joober

    Agree with Andrew M,
    Also,Diesel and Petrol is a scarce resource, the diesel option is a short term fix on their behalf in an attempt to recover from their dwindling profits over the years.

    Give 3-5 years people will be trying so hard to get out of the oil based products.

    The go is Alternatives, like LPG atm. major investments in technology into LPG, Electric, Hydrogen is the go to secure a future. Just what if the Middle East goes into crisis tomorrow and the oils run dry?

  • http://nationaltransportllc.com/blog Automobile Carrier

    Very interesting post..

    But I think the discussions going on got me thinking even more.. : ]

  • Carl

    Andrew M…..i can’t disagree with anything you’ve said in your previous post! in fact it makes so much sense that i’m afraid it just won’t happen.

    if Ford was to invest just a small amount compared to developing a Hybrid or even adapting that brilliant V6 diesel in the Jag on developing an LPG system that doesn’t lose power and incorporates it to the Territory and the Turbo models then even the snobs that turn their noses up at LPG now, won’t be able to criticize it anymore!!!

    i have no answer to why LPG is ignored by so many people, it’s baffling because most of those people are under all sorts of financial stresses and constantly complaining about how expensive petrol and diesel is yet we have BRILLIANT fuel that’s ready to go “NOW” and can be made in OZ without sending our dollars off to the middle east….it’s called LPG “WAKE UP PEOPLE” and smell the Co2!

  • http://. Naughtyius Maximus

    Andrew M Says: May 20th, 2008 at 8:45 pm…….Diesels and LPG, etc, etc

    NM response……BULLSEYE DEAD BANG SMACKO 100% PERFECT IN THE MIDDLE!

  • Tony M

    The economics of diesels and LPG etc and whether they will be the main fuel of the future will all depend on perceptions and what the marketing people try to sell the motoring public. What I see in this section of blogs is people who truly consider all the alternative. But what worries me is that in the end it’s not what we say but what the so called experts in the car industry want to sell. Better known as PROFITS AT ALL COSTS.

  • Cameron

    We have a deaf government. It was a deaf Liberal government, now its a deaf Labour. When will they take the initiative???
    Sure there will be some pains along the way, but imagine the pain if they don’t act soon?
    The thing is, we have ample natural gas for our automotive industry AND the export market. We have technologies for cars that run on compressed air, technology for electric-only cars.
    Why must we wait for tomorrow to adapt these viable alternatives?
    Someone?
    Please???

  • Richo

    AndrewM – i agree with you, although i would think if it had a REALLY good diesel in them then a diesel commodore and falcon COULD return as low as 7l/100km, but otherwise everything you said is pretty much spot on except for one thing, you are looking at the AVERAGED fuel economy per 100km’s when you say this. It’s quite common for diesels and petrols to perform quite similarly on the open road with regard to fuel consumption, which tends to even up the averaged economy that the ADR quotes a little bit more. In reality however, day to day driving in the city, the difference between diesel and petrol economy tends to widen, so although the official number may only be 2 or 3l per 100km, the difference in the city can be as much as double that. That is why its quite often easier for people to match and beat the quoted economy in a diesel, and why so many people struggle to match or beat the quoted economy in a petrol. Hope that all made sense

  • Carl

    There is a guy that works at the Melbourne Victoria markets and he’s developed a rotary motor that runs on compressed air and he claims is more efficient than the french one…..he is running a forklift or or something similar at the markets……but no one except the beyond tomorrow show has bothered interviewing or helping this guy develop this technology enough to apply it to a full sized car!!

    i think Australians are becoming lazy and or greedy and the same goes for our governments….what are we waiting for? are we too busy trying to get rich and paying off our McMansions to be innovative or think out side the square???

  • Bavarian Missile

    Morning Carl………….that sounds real interesting,compressed air! I bet the government wouldn’t bother giving him a grant to continue its testing yet would give some so called artist 200k to buy MnMs pour them over the floor throw a frame around it and call that art ,madness!Or some scientist $50,000 to work out if Ants fart?

  • joober

    Why hasnt this been acted on…
    Cause the Petrol Companies have strong ties / influence to ensure that petrol is mainstream circulated and they’ll be happy to shut down any milestone innovation that will greatly dent their profits, the only thing they can’t control is the scarcity of resource. Plus the Australian government is loving the tax money from Petroleum.

    Anybody noticed today, Barrel prices hit a new high!

  • Richo

    the CNG idea is a good one, the only problem is that most cars are made in other countries, where is their motivation to make a car that runs on CNG specifically for the australian market which in the grand scheme of things really isn’t all that big? Yes i know normal engines can be converted to run on CNG, but they still would have to do all of the engineering evaluation work and it all costs money

  • Grumps

    Years ago I would have never considered a diesel vehicle but the recent publicity they have been given was swaying my mind.

    I was considering a new Mondeo diesel in fact.

    But where I live 91 RON is $1.50 and diesel is now $1.79 – that’s 29 cents difference!! I think LPG is around 75 cents.

    I’d have to seriously sit down with a calculator and try and work out all the factors of initial vehicle cost, mileage, servicing etc to see which would come out on top for me.

  • Watto_Cobra

    I agree with that Richo. 70% or my driving is on the freeway, so the Falcon I6 is perfect for me. Big comfy car, heaps of torque, tows easily, etc.

    My last 3 fill ups have been this :-
    764.4kms for 60.52L = 7.9L/100kms – Economy driving.
    558.9kms for 51.73L = 9.3L/100kms – Spirited driving.
    710.6kms for 58.50L = 8.3L/100kms – Economy driving.

    Of course, those figures would blow out if I had to deal with Melbourne’s gridlock.

    It’s a shame to me that the newer gas tech isn’t in FG as Andrew.M says. That’d suit me perfectly.

  • Carl

    Hey BM……you have real way with words!Hahaha

  • http://aca Holden/Ford Hypocrites

    With the market increasing it’s move towards hybrid drivetrains, it proves Toyota was on the right track for investing into hydrid technology all-a-long despite the years of critism before-hand.

    What i have notice is that most bloggers on this particular subject have openly duscussed a hybrid Commodore but before-hand were digging Toyota for developing the exact same system.

    For all the past critics … what about the manufactuering, utilisation and then disposing of the batteries – why haven’t you people slammed Holden for such intentions but prior were all to quick to raise the point against Toyota … mmm !!

  • Carl

    ^^^^^^^^^^Here we go again….boring!!^^^^^^^^

  • Watto_Cobra

    ^^^ Well, Andrew.M and myself aren’t in that boat.

  • trackdaze

    Oh Hi TP/Dingo

    I think you’ll find we have. Who in their right mind is going to buy a 45k commodore hybrid that does 7litres per hundred? It doesn’t make any economic sense. A diesel or lpg however?

    You’re forgeting Honda have a hybrid civic aren’t you? It makes more sense than the PriARSE on cost benefit. But alas a hyundai i30 turbo diesel cost nearly half the price of the and uses less fuel than the PriArse.

    Put a stop/start function in any of the modern b segment diesels and the PriArse becomes practically a joke! look at the mini Diesel in europe heaps of torque about the same cost and it practically doubled the mileage of the PriARSE on a recent test. Face it. petrol hybrid is a “ecowank”

  • http://aca Holden/Ford Hypocrites

    Trackdaze – i may have missed it but i have not noted a single critism towards the Commodore for utilisation batteries that people such as yourself have slammed Toyota about in the past.

    I agree diesels are a good option and moving forward aswell and may i remind you that Toyota in Europe uses a 1.4, 1.6 and 2.2 diesel donks and many of thier cars including the Lexus IS220d so they to are involved with such development but unfortunately behind the ball in Australia unless it is a 4×4/commercial.

    With regards to petrol hybrids, there must good grounds that everyday people like ourselves are overlooking for so many manufactuers now persuing the technology with BMW, Mercedez Benz, Audi, Ford, GM and Nissan all coming onboard to join Toyota and Honda who have already been in the game for how long … !!

    Also, most of the diesels such as the i30 that you compare against the Prius are latest models/generations while the current Prius is now aging and due for replacement in January/February 2009 which will not only bring greater performance but more efficancy in it’s third generation format.

    It is also worth noting that in the past couple of weeks alone – the Prius engine won the ‘World Green Engine Of The Year’ award and then was ranked No.1 in the latest JD Powers UK Quality/Customer Satsifaction Survey fending off over 100 other models.

  • trackdaze

    The reason why Petrol hybrids are being considered by BMW et al is for one reason only. its called the US of A. or more notably california. Its for that reason alone that they are bothering. Diesel time in america is fast aproaching.

    Make no mistake a diesel with stop/start will trounce a petrol hybrid.

    In case you haven’t heard me the Commodore petrol hybrid makes as much economic sense as the PriARSE.

  • Bavarian Missile

    Was wondering how long it would take before BOB would mention the T word.

    Hey Carl I may have a way with words but sometimes Im speechless to Dingo/Bobs arrogance when it comes to Toyota.

    Bob has it ever occurred to you that Toyota read these comments and that must be starting to wonder if they should provide CA any cars in the future cause you make such a fool out of yourself over them causing arguments on them where ever you go and pure hatred towards Toyota with some of us now! ! Think about that,you may actuality stop the Toyota reviews singly handed!

  • Golfschwein

    Who? Looks like someone needs a hanky. Pink or purple? Fluffy or cuddly?

  • Golfschwein

    Sorry for my above use of well worn and sophisticated humour. Better get a hanky myself from laughing so hard!!!

    :)

  • Bavarian Missile

    hahaha that was gold,I like Trackdaze! You are absolutely correct too.

    Toyota investing in Hybrid.pftttttttt thats a laugh I thought that was done by the Japanese Government. see below!

    “”The automotive press was abuzz earlier this month as corporations flung around statements related to the development of hybrid vehicles, suggesting Toyota may have received an unfair advantage by receiving government funding for research and development.

    This conflict flared up recently after Business Week magazine published a quote from Jim Press, former president of Toyota’s U.S. division: “The Japanese government paid for 100 percent of the development of the battery and hybrid system that went into the Toyota Prius.” In September 2007, Press left Toyota to become Chrysler’s vice chairman and president.”"end quote

  • Bavarian Missile

    hahaha,morning Golfy…….weren’t we doing this last week? Listening to Bob go on and on about the worlds most boring car manufacturer ? yawn…….

  • Golfschwein

    Anyway, well done to Holden and GM for bringing this extremely worthwhile technology to market. I hope they don’t pike out on either. Choice is good.

  • Bavarian Missile

    GM FORD CHRYSLER started looking at diesel hybrids in the early 90s but obviously now have moved on to petrol,wonder why! Maybe cause the yanks aren’t big DIESEL LOVERS?

  • Tony M

    It’s great to see that us petrol heads can go further than big block V8′s, rice burners and turbos. I just wish the Governments of ALL political persuasion would remove their heads from areas where the sun doesn’t shine located behind the banners of oil companies and affiliated organisations (maybe car companies have shares in oil companies). The Governments role is to work for the good of the people not the good of defunk industries that create so much pollusion it’s not funny.
    What a lot of people forget about hybrid cars is that the electric motor generates a certain amount of power/torque which is stored in the batteries. When the engine uses a diesel motor to generate power to be used by the electric motor it can only give as much as it has. That is power in equal power out. If the diesel has 100kw the electric can only give 100kw not more.

  • Richo

    Actually BM, everybody has looked at diesel hybrids, the reason no one has actually developed one however is due to an inheriant incompatibility between a diesel and a hybrid drive system. See while petrol engines can be easily started and stopped by simply turning the crank and dropping some fuel and spark in, something a hybrid drive system can do very easily, a diesel engine due to its very high compression ratio requires alot of voltage to turn the crank over, the same voltage that is required by the electric engine, which means the whole system struggles to work seemlessly like the petrol hybrids do. This is the reason why, currently at least, all hybrids are petrol.

    As for the Holden/Ford Hypocrits bloke, mate the reason all the manufacturers are going after hybrids is because of the green factor. They make cars to sell them, and while their is a market for them they will keep making them and also enjoy the positive publicity they will get out of them. But ask the hard questions and they will all tell you that hybrids are not only not the answer, but they are also a false ecnomy and actually cost more to run and maintain in the long run then a conventionally engined motor car. Bob Lutz of GM recently said, in typical Bob Lutz form, that petrol electric hybrids are more of a fasion accessory then a genuine alternative to petrol and diesel powered cars. And this from a company which is about to release their very own prius type hybrid, the Chevvy Volt

  • Richo

    Also, its not just brand new models of diesels which beats the toyota prius in fuel economy, but many small diesel cars from europe such as the VW Polo turbo diesel which have been around for years in europe, not only drink less fuel but as diesel burns cleaner then petrol, and they don’t have those environmentally disasterous batteries which dont break down for 1000 years, they are also MILES better for the environment then the prius. Again, its a false economy.

  • Golfschwein

    Bavarian Missile, it COULD go something like this. Anybody, feel free to correct me, but I think I read something once; Because of diesels’ higher compression ratios and concomitantly (Ooh, dictionary time!) violent start-up and shut-down protocols, car makers have had a Dickens of a time trying to get them to drive acceptably in a hybrid situation. Can you picture it? Stop, judder, start, thump, thump, thump, etc. Heck, maybe it was the lack of a spark thingy that was the biggest problem.

    I don’t know what the Mini system is or how it works, but I know it exists, and Peugeot are less than a year away from giving us the 308 diesel hybrid, so that means they probably have driveability problems licked.

  • Bavarian Missile

    mmm,thanks for that Richo you have taught me something!

  • Golfschwein

    Richo, our repsonses to Bavarian Missile hit the airwaves at about the same time. Glad to see you’ve got the technical side more under control than I have. :)

  • Bavarian Missile

    mmmm,interesting results from International Engine Awards….seems BMW almost picked up another .How many were in contention for the award BOB? 6……….. here are the results. BMW only 3 points away..rrrr well next year they will do better after all getting 6 out of the 12 awards given just isn’t good enough hehehe

    1. Toyota Hybrid 1.5-litre (Prius) 269 points

    2. BMW Diesel 2-litre (118d, 318d) (Stop-start) 266

    3. Volkswagen 1.4-litre TSI Twincharger (VW Golf, Touran, Tiguan, Jetta (140/170bhp)) (small capacity, high output) 150

    4. Volkswagen 1.4-litre TSI (Audi A3, Seat Leon, Altea, VW Golf, Eos, Jetta, Passat (125bhp)) (small capacity, high output) 140

    5. Fiat 1.4-litre Turbo (Bravo) (small capacity, high output) 108

    6. Honda Hybrid 1.3-litre IMA (Civic) 101

  • J

    While people are buying, manufacturers will jump at the chance to sell. Hybrids are selling, so all manufactures want a piece of it – not necessarily due to any perceived or real benefit they have, but because they know they’ll make money from it. Why do Big Macs keep appearing on the menu at Maccas when there’s no health benefit from them – because people (like me :-) ) keep buying them. Hybrids are the motoring equivalent of a Big Mac – simple.

  • Bavarian Missile

    hahaha.your version is much more descriptive though Golfy

    So the diesel hybrid from Peugeot,is it from Peugeot? BMW currently supply Peugeot’s 307/308 with engines don’t they?

  • Bavarian Missile

    Exactly J I have said the same myself before.its all about marketing and sales .Americans being the biggest suckers whoops buyers.

  • Golfschwein

    Not sure, J. In a coffee context, hybrids are a skinny soy decaf latte. With a twist of lemon, ta. Not everyone wants one but (sigh) you gotta know how to make one.

  • Golfschwein

    Peugeot’s 4 cyl diesel engines are their own, whilst V6s are shared with others. It’s the petrol fours that BMW are supplying to the 207 and 308(?).

  • http://aca Bavarian Hypocrite

    BMW – out of curiosity, were is BMW when it comes to Quality/Customer Satisfaction Surveys … mmm !!

    Put it this way, not even remotely close to Lexus … OOCH !!

  • J

    Tony M – you are correct, but where most of the marketing energy goes with Hybrids is to show that some of the energy put into the moving vehicle is recovered to slow it down, whereas most other vehicles lose it to heat through your brakes. You can never get more energy out of a system than what is put in, but you can make the system more efficient, making better use of the energy you put into the system, or reusing the energy leaving the system in another form. And hybrids are one idea in making the system more efficient, as are diesels, direct injection petrol engines, low rolling resistance tyres, water injection, lowered Cd, & Brocky’s Polariser.

    Point I make is there’s more than one way to skin a cat and hybrids are not the only silver bullet. Bigger point I’m also trying to make is that all these technologies still rely on the very product we’re trying to remove reliance on – oil.

    Best vehicle uses *truly* sustainable & renewable fuels (wait & see the hype in the next decade over hydrogen – just imagine how much energy it takes to produce the hydrogen, pressurise it, store it a suitably low temperatures, pump it, etc – could be another false economy, but I digress). If I had the answer to this one a) I’d be rich, b) I wouldn’t be giving it away on a public forum :-) c) oil companies would bump me real quick…

  • joober

    J, I think oil companies already bump or influenced others to bump people (think Syriana the movie) who have found away, or have taken thei idea and locked it up somewhere as something they can use in the future…

    I think when Oil is much harder to come by is when we start seeing innovations coming out of the woodwork.

    As for Japan, at least their government is encouraging going away from oil, unlike our or the US, I would love an Australian company be a forefront in alternative fuel powered engines..

  • Bavarian Missile

    BOB / Bavarian Hypocrite there you go again embarrising yourself..cornered me on the BMW hybrid thing …..hahaha what a joke you are………I had the last word didn’t I!

    Was that the S word you mentioned again……..again your a joke,how does 65 of the best jernos in the world from 32 countries compare to a survey? No credibility BOB just like you .

    Cant wait to press the report button on you.Keep it going your going to bury yourself.

    BMW not close to Lexus pftttt……your opinion that means jack crap on this site…..oh and my beloved US companies???BMW are German you fool!

    I think I may contact Toyota Australia and give them your address details,that way they can tell you directly to stop embarrassing their name! Is that the sound of a dog that I can hear that just got kicked in the background….whimper whimper .Go lick your wounds and come back Bob Michell…..annoyed we know your real name instead of the many you try and hide behind……

  • Tony M

    Bavarian Hypocrite: I assume you are Toyota fan. There is nothing wrong with that but remember Toyota don’t make enovative anything. They spend their time trying to copy other people. I remember reading about the Lexus, how Toyota got their hands on the top Merc and BMW and tried to copy these cars in all things. Got it, they didn’t start with a clean sheet of paper and created a great car. No they just copy their competitors. True other Companies do the same but Toyota have made an art of it. If you want to see enovative then just look at Formula One. Oh that’s right Toyota have been trying for years to win races in this class of sport but haven’t been successful. I do have bad news for them, it appears that Ferrari will be getting involved in Cart Racing/Indy (I think one of these are defunct).

    You see you have two types of drivers, those who drive cars and those who are drivers of cars. Which one are you?

    Interestingly the anti-spam word is Jaguar. I use to own a 1966 S Type 4 speed manual with electric overdrive. This is a car for drivers. You know the one that tinkers with their cars, tuning the twin 2″ SU’s, doubling the clutch when you change gears, using the compression of the engine as part of the braking, getting 12 miles per gallon etc. etc. This car was at times a pain in the butt but it was a car to be driven. As for the Priuses at work, they are dangerous. They are so boring to drive I need the aircon on my face to keep me awake, let alone you get sea sick in them because they wollow front to back left to right and of course when you want to overtake, make sure their fully charged up or else you go no where.

    Am I bagging Toyota? No way, they do make some good cars but they don’t make great cars. I better stop I think it’s time for someone else to have a go.

  • Bavarian Missile

    Tony…you want to know what he drives….a wide bodied Camry and a Sportivo……that should give you an indication of what sort of driver he is!

  • Tony M

    BM: Tragic, I have been fortunate that in a previous life (20 years ago) I use to sell cars. What have I driven, Fiat 130 with a 3.2 litre Ferrari motor, Jensen Interseptor with a Chrysler 7 litre hemi, GTHO Phase 3 , number 28, XU1 Torana, A9X Torana, 1980 2 litre Alfa Romeo with the gearbox and diff incorporated in the back and of course the fun car was a 1973 HQ Ute with 253 and 4 on the floor. Now all I drive is, well those who have read my blogs know.

  • Richo

    Wow this hypocrite guy is pretty annoying isn’t he? Mate how come i am a “proven liar” if i couldn’t be bothered digging up references to facts that most people know however you can freely distribute your “facts” without references and are somehow not a proven liar?

    And where was i talking about “old diesels”? Oh thats right, i wasn’t! MODERN DIESELS with their common rail direct injection and particle filters are absolutely cleaner burning then petrol engines and produce less emisions per litre of fuel burnt then equivilant petrol engines. Thats fact too, and no i’m not going to bother digging up references to prove this is correct because i actually have a life!

  • Bavarian Missile

    Very interesting Tony M,you must be in the same age group as Golfy NM,No Name and myself.

    An interesting array of cars you’ve had,some of which I too have owned,if you go on to the CA Forum you will see the selection I have had over the last 22 years {she mumbles under her breath “god that makes me old”}. Looks like you would pass Shannons test as a car enthusiasts! I had to inform them the other day of how I am a car enthusiast and for how long before they would re insure the M3……….doubt they have too many Toyota drivers on their books.hahaha

    Richo its hard not to bite back isn’t it,he takes everything out of context and twists it around to suit himself. Frustrating I know ask my key board and forehead they regularly met when he comes on CA……….

  • Bucket (Formerly Known as Chris)

    Jimbo,

    Let me clarify one thing for you, we have so much oil at the moment it’s crazy. Whatever you hear contrary is total rubbish. It’s profiteering and abusing supply/demand in the highest degree.
    I work for a Multinational Oilfield Services Company and we can’t get enough people out to into the field. There is just that much work and the amount of wells we drill as apposed to the ones that close is silly.

    Sure, America is running low but the rest of the world and the Ocean still have a lot to give. Oh and another thing…the only thing restricting us from getting deep water Oil is technology. The Oil is there…give them a few years and we’ll be pumping it up.

    In addition, there are still a lot of places we havent looked for Oil nor have we widely applied the technology available to get it.

    Why did GM scrap the electric car in the 90′s? Because the Oil companies didn’t have a finger in the Pie.

    Hybrids long term have higher running costs than Petrol cars. Just wait and see.

  • Andrew M

    Richo,
    yep you are right in that diesels maittain a more stable economy over the petrol variants, and fair enough the petrol versions drink it in the city, but thats exactlly why I and all of us must quote combined figures.

    A petrol falcon for eg on the highway easily will get 8-9L/100k.
    a diesel wont drop 3L off its combined total when it hits the highway.
    fair enough when a petrol versus diesel hit the city, the gap widens, but when the petrol and diesel hit the highways, the gap narrows.
    my use of combined figures was still an accurate and fair way to compare.

    anyway, i dont go for diesel, petrol or even Hybrid.

    i think LPG is by far the better NOW solution untill we have a zero emissions target (cause that will come too eventually)
    LPG is better for the environment to start with.
    it would cost bugger all to design a dedicated Vapour injected LPG vehicle.

    it probably cost holden more to design BA headlights to fit the commodore than what it would have cost them to spit out a respectible LPG only commodore

    and it would have cost ford even less to simply apply a better computer to their current dedicated LPG set up.
    you would have thought the dollars saved by not designing new hub caps for the XT would have covered the cost of up grading the LPG “Brain”.

    if only i was the CEO for a day……….

  • Andrew M

    i am seriously going to look into the possibility of getting a new E-Gas falcon, and taking it to an after market fitter and have the better brain installed my self.

    the tank and plumbing would already be in place, and the biggest thing is that fords motor comes with proper LPG internals

  • Bavarian Missile

    awwwww Andrew M I don’t think theres any thing wrong with your brain..is there. No need to get another installed in your self.hehehe

  • Bavarian Missile

    Andrew M …………..do you ever check your email????????Sent YOU something today thought you would be interested in!

  • http://aca Bavarian Hypocrite

    Tony – All manufactuers copy one another to a digree which is no different to any industry yet fact remains … Toyota argueably remains todays most successful automotive manufactuer of all being not only the largest by volumn (popularity) but by production efficency, profit, wealth and corporate recognition not to mention their traditional values of QDR (Quality, Dependability & Reliability).

    The only and true value that most people are concerned about is the end product and when you purchase a Toyota – not only do you purchase a quality product but one that most customers prove to be satisfied with.

    With referance to coping, well … it seems many companies these days are now content to invest into hybrid technology that Toyota (and Honda) have done for many years. During this time, Toyota has copped alot of flack from such investment but now it seems that others are following in Toyota’s footsteps.

    Oh yeah – and lets not forget about KAIZEN that is a unique Toyota regime that is now not only studied around the world by university students but increasingly becoming adopted by many global multi-national companies.

    So … it seems Toyota is not the only company doing the copying.

    The other ‘art’ that Toyota has been successful at … reading the market.

    With regards to motorsport … agree, Toyota has much work to be done in F1 but that said, NASCAR is proving a gem for the group winning more races in each of the series – Sprint, Nationwide and Craftman Trucks – this season so far then any of it’s competitors : Chevy, Ford and Dodge.

    Infact, Toyota is now arguably the most competitive manufactuer in NASCAR.

    And the most enjoyable aspect of it all – they are beating the American automotive manufactuers at thier own game on thier own soil … OOCH !!

    Oh yeah – and lets not forget our own Rally Championships (ARC) in which Toyota is currently the dominating force against Subaru, Mitsubishi, Ford and the recent new arrivals of Honda and VW.

    In future, if you want to raise comments about Toyota’s involvement in motorsport – i suggest you tell the whole story and not part off.

    You also stated that Toyota don’t make great cars … what a load of ROT !!

    Not only are most Toyota’s mainsteam vehicles amoung the most competitive on the market – but thier 4×4′s/commercials are argueably the most robust and dependable of all while Lexus is now argueably the highest quality automotive brand that can be found anywhere in the world today.

    To me … any Lexus is a GREAT CAR.

    If i drive a car of choice, then i am a driver of a car !!

    And a final note : when it comes to Quality/ Customer Satisfaction Surveys, which company is amoung the most consistant wether it be the UK, USA or Australian market … yep, that’s right – TOYOTA /LEXUS !!

  • http://aca Bavarian Hypocrite

    Bucket – you state that hybrids will have a higher running cost then conventional means and followed on to state – just wait and see !!

    Were is your supporting ‘referance’ to such a cliam ??

    Passing comment is easy but wether it will be prove to be even remotely connected to reality will no-doubt be another story.

    How about passing comment that you can ‘support’ instead of stating what could prove to be rot.

  • Wheelnut

    TP in relation to the article in the NRMA Open Road = I think that you [like another toyo-tosser on this site] have missed thw point.

    The article doesn’t state that the Falcon itself as a model car is dead it implies more that the LARGE Family sedan [Im talking about the car not the size or weight of the members in that family] Car is dead

    That is the upcoming models of both the Falcon and Commodore will have to become more of a Medium Compact size using smaller capacity engines with similar power… just like the TT-36 Torana Concept car

  • Golfschwein

    Did somebody hear something?

  • Bret

    And with the strong Aussie dollar and declining tarrifs who will be the first to pull the pin on local manufacturing if profits slip?
    Who has the smallest local engineering input?
    WHO will just import from another country?

    Simple TOYOTA.

  • http://realcars realcars

    Theses idiots(GM) are making it up as it goes it would seem.
    No wonder Toyota has open slather on the market. Toyota only need to have half a clue. Ha .ha to whip their arse.

    With the rough start up on diesels for hybrid why not some progressive cylinder activation tech i.e deactivation in reverse? Mate, the board need to sack the arse off this idiot.

    Millions of dollars a year to pay this idiot to be five years or more off the pace?

  • Bucket (Formerly Known as Chris)

    Hypocrite- change your name…no need for direct jabs at anyone.

    I mean to point out that currently, the Batteries in most Hybrid Cars i.e Prius need to be replaced after a number of years and that these cost thousands (they were $5000 in 2004
    And now more like $3000)
    So on top of regular servicing, servicing of hybrid components (which NRMA calculates total cost of ownership to be $235 per week) you also have to fork for a Battery.
    COMPARE THAT to a VW Polo 1.6L 5 SP Manual….$148 Per week

  • Watto_Cobra

    As soon as I start reading a new post, and realise it’s from Dingo plus the other hundred aliases he/she has, I skip straight to the next one. Recycled, petty and tiresome.

  • http://realcars realcars

    The prob with Toyota dominating the market is that they will be able to keep the price high and less features as they already do for their gullible minions.

    Go into a Toyota dealer and who knows what u will pay is already the case. Already offer lowest trade in valuations no doubt due to marketing supremacy.

    Better hope Toyota don’t take over completely otherwise future motoring will be definitely dearer in Oz.

  • http://realcars realcars

    Another prob with Toyota products is that everything is based on a Camry(including Lexus).Cheap arse engineering at a Premium price i.e especially if u want RWD and a few more bitumus layers.

    Their SUVs are Camrys on steriods(same platform here we go again)

    F&***km$$$ their range all looks the same apart from different ground clearance!!!!!!!!

  • No Name

    Oh low and behold – its turned into another Toyata rant. Bored.
    I do see and agree some of the points made. It seemes we are too quick to criticise Toyota for the prius hybridand not Honda, however we do not get Hondaphiles ranting like the Toyotaphiles.
    An observation regarding the Prius is really that all people here are being misconstrued, the point of the Prius is making out its an economical green vehicle when its clearly not. Its pollutes at about the same levels as a comparable diesel, it cost more to buy than a comparable diesel, and cost more to service and repair than a comparable diesel.
    I personally would question any petrol hybrid and forthcoming diesel hybrid as being labelled “Green”. They are not they are simply mildly more economical to fuel than your regular petrol equivilent.

  • Joober

    No name, I agree, its always ending up with Toyota and Ford in each forum, Lets just stick to what the article is about and comment relatively.

  • Bavarian Missile

    Morning NO NAME………..time to find another thread as this one is about to be destroyed by MR T……….

    Gee Watto I bet your starting to wonder why you came back to CA after 2 months when CAs head clown is still here amusing himself!Hes similar to a comedian that laughs at his own jokes hes the only one that thinks there funny.

  • http://jaguar XR_2 Capri

    Go nissan electric

  • No Name

    Dingo or whoever you want to call yourself cos you can’t make up you mind said “typical repair costs of modern diesel engines are not cheap. Infact, they can be extremely expensive”

    How do you know? what are the rates for say replacing injectors? Are those injectors more than say a petrol injector?..

    All seems strange as petrol engines being introduced are following diesel technology with item such as injectors, direct injection and turbo charging for efficiency. So your statement is really based on guess work. Whereas i’ve driven nothing but diesel cars since 1988 and mechanically suffered nothing more than minor (citreon ZX excepted – complete engine failure at 144K’s) items such as water pumps, pulleys etc thats in about a million k’s of diesel motoring. So i do know what i’m talking about.

  • http://jaguar XR_2 Capri

    radical eight-wheeled, 600kW rocket from Japan is proof that electric cars can be fast and fun.

    Called Eliica, short for Electric Lithium-Ion battery Car, it boasts a neck-snapping 0-100kmh time of just four seconds and a 0-160kmh time of seven seconds, which means the Eliica accelerates faster than a Porsche 911 Turbo.

  • http://. Naughtyius Maximus

    Dingo….your a monkey wrench and need to tighten bolts on neck mate!

  • http://realcars realcars

    BH what are u on about?

    They are all freakin Camrys!!! What’s the argument?
    Most diverse engine/trans/floorpan range not!

    Lets hope GMH can make a better meal of Hybrid tech than Toyota for the planets sake!

    Personally I think with present battery tech hybrid is a half arse waste of time. All this bullshit to save 1 or 2 ltrs per 100 klms. Really?

    But then again as the worlds genius make it up as they go along it is about spin and what u can sell to half whits and Toyota are experts.

    Lets keep looking at improving the efficiency of internal combustion engines and alternate greener fuels to power these until batteries are up to the total task(urrrgh how boring will that be?) Direction injection there u go wasn’t that hard was it?

    Huge gains to be made with the internal combustion engine.

  • http://. Naughtyius Maximus

    Not to mention silly recharge batteries over many hours makes it crap to think of hybrid. So all we do is shift blame and think we should drive hybrids as better….not!

  • http://realcars realcars

    Orbital/Rotary internal combustion engines you would think would have to be more efficient if this was the priority.

    Given the part being motivated by combustion isn’t continually changing in the complete opposite direction as it is in a conventional internal combustion engine.

    Advances in electronics and materials/machining should surely boost the credentials for the development of these power plants?

    What about harnessing the greater than 80% energy loss in the form of heat from a conventional engine?

  • Golfschwein

    Bavarian Missile, I’ve got pink and purple on repeat cycle and I still can’t keep up!

    Damn, roleing on flaw laughing, I am!

  • No Name

    Ha Ha Golfie you said that with much gay abandon. your weelie woofless

  • F@ GTHO

    hey every1 its my birthday

    :)

  • Tony M

    Bavarian Hypocrite: You still don’t get it. If you noted the cars I have driven, they are great handling cars. They are cars for drivers of cars. The cars you talk about are cars you just drive. No excitement. If that’s your thing, great. Driver type cars, you will find are low volume because they are designed to the nth degree. Mass produced cars (Toyota) are designed to meet the needs of commercial markets (leasing etc) who will buy the most of these vehicle. All car companies do it, maybe Toyota has done it best (At the moment).

    When you talk about car racing, don’t talk about NASCARS, or “micky mouse” rallying. When it comes to the pinnical of car racing, Formula 1, World Rally Championship, etc, this is world based motor sport not country based motor sport, there are no Toyotas at the top of the tree.

    Sure Toyotas sell a lot of cars that doesn’t mean they make great cars.

    Don’t confuse volume for quality.

    F@ GTHO: Happy birthday.

  • booter

    at the end of the day, if everyone just switched to electric, or hybrids, we would have to build a heap of new power stations to supply the recharge power. doesnt that just defeat the purpose of the prius and others been environmentally friendly??

  • Bavarian Missile

    Happy Birthday F@GTHO:……………have a great day!

    Hey Golfy you get the stitch from too much laughing? I did last night,seems BOB doesn’t love his T brand as much as he says cause hes clearly making a mockery out of them and himself……………..how sad is that.

  • J

    Booter – my point exactly (about 100,000 Toyota posts ago…). Need to find new energy source completely. Hybrids/diesels/efficiencies etc are step 1 in this process of reducing reliance on oil, but there are many steps to go. Economy dictates that it must be a slow change – just have a look at the size of these oil companies! If they crash, we all crash with them, so we just want to put them down softly & hope they don’t wake up to the fact we don’t need them anymore… shhhh…

  • joober

    J, I wish these oil companies will soak up every bit of economy until the well runs dry, but if they are smart, which they are, they would start monopolising the alternative energy market too,

    As it goes, make sure everyone suck it all up until there is no more!

    Booter; if no one is using oil, then the power saved from refining, drilling would compensate, the question now is that the energy sources to power hybrids/electric atm arent advanced enough to be so called ‘green’ so its a double edged sword.

  • XR2_Capri

    If there is no fuel or itis expensive $2.00/lt+ (coming soon to a petrol station near you) hybrid doesnt work sorry but itis either Electric or hydrogen which takes alot of power to produce anyway.
    It will be the footprint of petrol/diesel or the footprint of power stations we have no choice anymore.
    More power plants are going to have to be built anyway to power the new cars anyway.

  • joober

    Yes, more powerplants are needed anyway regardless which direction you take. Its all about the opportunity costs involved in this though.

    With the energy savings from Oil refining, Logistics, Drilling. That energy savings/costs will be consumed to giving extra throughput on powerplants to power electric cars or whatever so it balances out anyway.

    But… although the harnessing energy process from these alternative fuels is in its early stages, there is massive room for improvement, and you cant single and say its crap or not worth it, everything needs to start somewhere and improve along the way, unfortunately its going against the competitor that is well established and basically owns the market and will do anything it to keep it that way, and probably contributes to the slow progression.

    I hate to use computers as an example but look at teh first computers, the size and the manufacturing costs, just by looking at it, its pointless. But yet forsight sees them getting smaller and more powerful to the point where its becomes almost a necessity in our daily lives.

    To me IMO i think more so that the trillion dollar oil companies are who should be massively sponsoring alternative energy :) .

  • Andrew M

    F@ GTHO,
    happy B’day mate

    im having a little trouble trying to figure out if the “you know who” starting the shyte is worse than those repeatedly responding to the rubbish?

    just walk away guys

  • Wheelnut

    I am employed by Rio Tinto in a Central Queensland Mine as i have been for the past 4 and a bit years as a normal, everyday mechanic.

    I do not work on heavy equipment as i am not qualified todate but i do maintain site utilities and believe me when i say this – as reliable as diesels are they can be bloody expense to fix when things go wrong especially any component associated with the direct injection system because of the complex design. And another point, aged diesels are dirty diesels and certainly no more greener then a hybrid in the extended term

    Derr… youre stating the bleeding obvious there Dingo

  • Wheelnut

    I am employed by Rio Tinto in a Central Queensland Mine as i have been for the past 4 and a bit years as a normal, everyday mechanic.

    I do not work on heavy equipment as i am not qualified todate but i do maintain site utilities and believe me when i say this – as reliable as diesels are they can be bloody expense to fix when things go wrong especially any component associated with the direct injection system because of the complex design. And another point, aged diesels are dirty diesels and certainly no more greener then a hybrid in the extended term

    Derr… youre stating the bleeding obvious there Dingo – Of course its going to be more expesnsive to repair a diesel

    particularly when you consider how many kimometres commercial vehicles like those used on mine sites [which I assume are mostly diesels] do each year as well as the rough conditions they have to deal with like heat uneven rocky dirt roads up and down hills sand dunes bush whilst carrying heavy loads etc.

    The more you use something the quicker its going to wear out and need servicing which involve considerable cost particularly when you consider that mining companies need as many of their trucks etc working as much as possible inorder to keep the operation going

  • Cameron

    wasn’t this article about hybrid and diesel commodores!?!?

    Some people need to get with the program!

  • Wheelnut

    I believe that it is Cameron… However as you can see there is a couple of individuals on this site who; if the article doesn;t relate to their favourite make of car They never have anything positive to say aabout the topic instead they prefer to hijack the thread in an attempt to try and change the subject so that we end up talking about that other make which starts with a T..
    infact one of them often ends up making personal attacks

    its almost as if they know nothing about any other make or model of car yet they are the ones who call us ignorant and narrow-minded – i think that’s called irony.

  • Andrew M

    wheelnut,
    be the man, and walk away.
    dont even read his posts and then you wont be tempted to respond.
    simple

  • Golfschwein

    I’m quite with Andrew M on this one. I mean, I don’t go into Graylands Psychiatric Hospital and say, “hello, I’d like to have an argument with one of your patients, please.” They’d commit me!

    Yet it happens here every day!

  • Andrew M

    golfie,
    it sounds obvious when you put it that way.
    but unfortunately it does happen here as you say.

    Wheelnut,
    dont respond mate.
    if you havent figured out by now that he cant be reasoned with, and does these things for arguments sake,
    then it speaks very little about your self

  • Cameron

    wow people post quick – I almost wonder if this site should run a chat room. Then it would have a moderator and morons would be banned.

  • Andrew M

    Cam,
    agree mate.
    wouldnt business boom for them

  • reality

    The right tools for the job should determine the purchase decision if economy were the chief concern. Diesel for long flowing trips to take advantage of the inherent efficiency of a diesel running on a steady speed and hybrids/plug in electric for stop start traffic to take advantage of the electric motor being the chief motive power under 40 kph. Compromised driving, yes, but until someone builds anything better these current technologies are the realities we have to live with.

  • Tony M

    I came across this article in Drive: Fuel types: the pros and cons /The Sydney Morning Herald, March 30, 2007″

    Great article which I believe looks at the pros and cons regarding alternate fuel etc in a very objective manner.

    You almost get the impression that there is no quick fix.

    At a guess I would say that the answer to the fuel problem will come from Europe, because they have been dealing with this problem of high fuel prices much longer than us.

  • Cameron

    Big companies in Australia buy toyota for tax purposes. Its always the bottom line that talks.

  • Cobra045

    Tony M.. We already know who he is!! thats the funny part of all this.. we know who is is and where he works.. and he isnt the person everyone thinks he is.. Yet he is still here..!! why do people get kicked off for baiting yet he is still here.. this site is a joke!! I would suggest that he is one of the CA people or knows them, or its a rating stsunt for CA.. in any case it is only damaging the cedibility of this site

  • Cobra045

    and I will probably get banned for saying that but somebody had to.. thats why I have not been on this site for months as it has become trashy!!

  • jbot

    I agree Cobra, I used to love the site, but I’m finding myself visiting less and less as it is going to sh*t. It shouldn’t be a chat room like many treat it, and I’d strongly recommend that CA move to the comment systems of other auto sites. Even though comments will be significantly delayed due to moderation, the site may be able to return to the time when it was actually a great resource for anyone looking to buy a car.

  • Tony M

    Cobra045: Who are you talking about? Some so called mechanic who works for Rio Tinto who seems to be on the internet more than fixing the utes he’s suppose to. Maybe that’s why they need so much fixing because he doesn’t give 100%. Shock horror you don’t mean this guy is not who he says he is. Oh my whatever I have been tricked.

    Cobra045, there are people like this guy who try to portray something they are not. Did he suck me in, no way. I use to sell cars many years ago and I can string a person along like you would not believe. Guys like this use to come into the car yard and try to impress. Guess what? They actually believed their own bulls**t and thought that by impressing they might get a better deal. Reality is, I would say “yeh really” and when they signed on the bottom line and came back latter, I’d say under my breath, who are you? Tragic I know, that’s why I left the business.

  • Cobra045

    Tony M.. You hit the nail on the head mate. Yes I am talking of the so called rio tinto mechanic. I wasnt inferring you were sucked in, just letting you know that all is not what it seems in this case, and its a shame CA are either actively involved or just letting it go to get ratings.

  • Tony M

    BH has let the site

  • Tony M

    left, left, left.

    To much Shiraz!

    I think it was.

  • http://aca Toyota Sales Supremacy

    ooh, ooh, ohh … it is getting closer to the end of the month and i wonder who is gonna win the sales race this month.

    It has been really close between Toyota, Holden and Ford for the past few years and is impossible to predict just who may take the honours for another month.

    HA, HA, HA !!

    OH WHAT A FEELING …

  • http://. Naughtyius Maximus

    I agree with JBOT.

    Back on topic as lots of drivel here…..the diesels in Commodore; anyone can provide comments about size and power figures as dare say would be high tech heaps!

  • Andrew M

    NM,
    my biggest beef with the commy and falcon diesel ideas is i dont think the economy would improve enough to justify the extra investment.

  • Golfschwein

    Back on topic we are Naughtyius Maximus! One of the earlier posters surmised a handy 550 Nm from the proposed VM Motori engine. I appreciate what Andrew M says about LPG, but the more significant marketing mood, buzz-word, call it whatever you like, is with diesel at the moment.

    And if you read boss-man Reilly’s comments, EVERYTHING’S under the microscope – CNG, E85, Hybrid, LPG and turbo diesel and 4cyl petrol turbo, so the next couple of years beyond the introduction of the Sportwagon and direct injection motors are going to be very exciting to watch.

  • Golfschwein

    You were posting the same time as me, Andrew M. If people see the VM diesel as an alternative power source with chummy driving characteristics and good economy (however much better, as you point out), the calculator might play a lesser role in their decision to purchase.

    Have a good weekend. You too NM. I’m off to gym, then a thali at my local Indian.

  • Tony M

    What worries me about the hybrid model like the Prius is will Holden go for a small turbo diesel, say 2 litre (100kw/320Nm) and match it to an electric motor of similar output. Like I have said before I find the Priuses we have at work, when you try to push them and they are low on voltage you don’t get the type of acceleration you expect.

  • http://. Naughtyius Maximus

    I do agree. People will still buy em as they forget the premium they pay and they are prepared to sacrifice more $ to buy better fuel economy and dont think greatly of fuel costs of it. Bit like a mirage me thinks.

    What concerns me about this new age revelation that big cars on slide is that people will not tow same things, have less appeal to carry people and will change there lifestyle hey!

  • http://. Naughtyius Maximus

    And agree Tony M…..other thing is all this excitement about Hybrids is a laugh. Well economy before top up is poor, battery issues is not advanced enough and lots of greenhouse gases go into the car and batteries in particular. So the mirage effect takes its hold on the buying public

  • http://. Naughtyius Maximus

    Dam you Golfie……………….Indian tucker is my favourite. Better get Indian bl**dy hot as I do and still eat some 5 bullseye chillies which I take with me – the Indians are stunned at me for how hot! Lucky bugga

  • Andrew M

    golfie,
    i appreciate your angle in that people would buy the diesel falcons and commys for their driving characteristics, but i would say that argument is only valid in the case of small cars and light trucks.

    falcons and commys are very much drivable especially the falcon with its torque bank that is greater than popular turbo diesels.

    falcons and commys dont need their neck rung as much as small petrol and jap petrol trucks.

    if i was looking at a jap ute, no way would i go petrol.
    yep, the diesel versions of jap utes are well worth the investment for enormous fuel bill savings, coupled with much much better drivability as they dont rev like a mother F*cker.

    4cyl petrol jap trucks dont even match the economy of say a falcon

  • http://. Naughtyius Maximus

    True, and more so since Jap utes have big motors in them in petrol guise to

  • Golfschwein

    I’ll have a thali for you too, Naughtyius. Actually, I won’t. They’re filling.

    Gym’s off, too. I wouldn’t have time for a proper work-out and I hate clock-watching.

    Andrew M. Hmmm. Yes…I see everything you’re saying but will add the following for food-for-thought.

    I drove a friend’s auto Mazda 323 today, bought just before the replacement 3 hit the shores. I’m delighted to say that the Golf was like a Rolls Royce in comparison to everything about it, virtually, and it wouldn’t have pulled a sailor off your sister.

    So yes, diesel Commodores and Falcons are going to be interesting in that, firstly, they will be joining a range of cars that perform very well in the first instance and secondly, we’ve never had them before.

    It’s all very untested, but you can sense the demand for them is in the air and where should Holden and Ford be if they don’t satisfy demand or predict a change of taste?

    My confidence is that, if they’re available, people will buy, and many will willingly be early adopters. After all, maunufacturers like BMW and Mercedes-Benz give you the option of choosing diesel or large capacity petrol engines in the same body shell to no apparent disadvantage. Just choose your engine and everyone’s a winner.

  • Andrew M

    golfie,
    yes i know it is un chartered waters.
    but i just dont see a commy getting under 8.0L/100k.

    the mondeo economy is a fairly good indicator, as that is the closest in size to a falcon or commy that a diesel would be asked to lug around

    i cant stand petrol small cars or petrol jap trucks because you have to rev their ring off to go any where.

    in other words, i can see how a diesel option will improve the drivability of a small car and jap trucks, but not a falcon or commy.

    ive had a few falcon utes, and they have all been manuals.

    when even i get into a jap ute, quite bluntly i hate it.
    in my falcon, dropping back to 2nd will spike the revs to 2500rpm (depends how hard you are going in though),
    but in a jap ute, going into a corner and grabbing 2nd will see you nearing compression lock up.

    its an age old saying, if it aint broke, dont fix it.

    i honestly cant see a falcon becoming any more drivable than it already is.

    small cars becoming more drivable adds up because you usually have to ring their neck to get them going.
    diesel solves that problem.

    in the case of falcon/commy, their aint that problem that needs fixing.

    poor public perception is the way i summ up ford and holdens eventual path to diesel mod falcons and commys.
    i do believe that a diesel territory would be worth it though.
    public have been crying for diesel terry for ages, and ford has lost market share because of their slowness to act

  • No Name

    Hi folks this thread still going on – I’ve been to London and back and it continues.
    Don’t quite agree with you Andrew M – Economy of a Commie now is about 10.5′s say. My Vectra, a similar vehicle, with 3 litre diesel does comparably 7.7′s and its by no way a decent diesel donk, the Germans are far better getting 7.2′s and 7.3′s. Thats about a 30% saving on fuel.
    Worth while having in my view. And I agree with Golfie you gotta just ignore the higher purchase cost else you’d put off buying one, remember the resale rates are better for diesels of course.

    Dingo – end of month figures – Come up with something new Yawn, we’ve heard it all before.

  • http://aca Oh What A Feeling

    Noname – agree, when you look at the results for Holden and Ford you do tend to doze-off

    Market share …. what market share !!

  • http://. Naughtyius Maximus

    Hey NO NAME…..where you around when ALBORZ got abused real bad by a tosser who reckon was drunk ~ that guy wasnt even banned one bit? Couldnt believe it! Lots are leaving here is not consistent and site has changed!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • http://. Naughtyius Maximus

    I do agree Diesel tech from Germany is unreal and to ignore the higher purchase cost else you’d put off buying one. Do agree about resale rates are better for diesels to

  • Mr. Boleh

    So Diesel Supercars at Bathurst in 2010?

  • hsv guy

    Who gives a crap about all this saving fuel just use it dont worry if its gone its gone then we will have to use something else.Until then im just gunna keep filling up with premieum and enjoy flooring the throttle .Maybee u guys can save fuel and use diesels and that will give me more time to thrash around in my hsv

  • Duck

    ^What HSV do you own?

  • hsv guy

    red clubie

  • Duck

    ^VE?

  • hsv guy

    No 2005 z series with after market throtle bodies 8 separate ram tubes ones that criss cross sounds awesome with chip and exhaust gos hard dose suck the juice but who cares

  • Duck

    Awesome!

  • homegrown

    I hope that Holden dont use the GM technology to develop at Hybrid. To date GM have replaced a few hundred batterys and prius 10

    GM 0 TOYOTA 1