Car Advice

Local manufacturing suffers – again

By Matt Brogan |

With over one million new cars sold in Australia last year, and forty five brands to choose from, you’d expect our local automotive manufacturers to be rejoicing – far from it.

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You see when it comes to buying cars, 80 per cent of us prefer imported vehicles. So where does this leave our local brands?

As you may recall, we touched on this issue back in September, but since the new year, local manufacturers are now desperately in want of an urgent review of the current tariff arrangements.

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With the current rate set at 10 per cent  local brands are suffering under fierce international competition, intense pricing battles and a stronger Aussie dollar.

The government had proposed to review the tariff later this year, but with the tariff set to fall rather than increase (possibly to as low as 5 per cent) many local manufacturers have indicated this could be the death blow for our car manufacturing industry.

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Union representatives from each of our four manufacturers have called on the government to scrap any further tariff cuts concerned that under any further economic pressure manufacturing operations here would either cease entirely and/or move off shore.

Further cost cutting and redundancies are becoming an impossible option with such measures almost forcing the hand of manufacturers to pull up stumps. Recent blows to the industry having already taken their toll on both employees and manufacturing operations.

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So, what’s the answer? Is it that the vehicles produced here no longer suit our tastes, or do we simply prefer the status of an imported car? Perhaps we feel our local vehicles just don’t cut it when it comes to kit for cash?

We’d very much like to hear your thoughts and as always welcome your comments. Tell us what you think. Is this the last nail in the coffin or a storm in a tea cup? Would your next new car be a local? CarAdvice looks forward to hearing from you.


 
  • Nick

    I don’t understand why people don’t buy locally made Toyotas (current Camry and Aurion are the best cars they’ve had) and Mitsubishis (380 is the best large car going) but I certainly know why Fords and Holdens are dropping off. Because they are built badly, nothing works and are over priced for what you get.

  • Anthonii

    I think it has to do with each end of the scales:

    The small car market owned by Hyundai and the luxury market cornered by the Germans. Then in between its a battle in the middle.

    And what about the imports these car makers get? Aurion gets shipped off and so does the SS…

  • Adam (aka Mada)

    Nick…

    Yeah, thats it!!! your very switched on…don’t know why we haven’t worked that out yet?

  • http://www.caradvice.com.au Matt

    The export market is growing, which is a great positive for our locals, and truly there’s nothing wrong with Australian cars.

    It’s just that there is SO much competition and I think the tactics and products are still developing and growing to adjust accordingly here in Oz.

    I for one hope our locals rise to meet the challenge and the government offers fair and reasonable support as I’d hate to see our brands die out and our guys and girls without jobs.

  • Ivan

    I know at least 3 of my friends who bought a brand new corolla in the last 3 months.

    The main problem for local manufacturers is that they built big cars… Aurion, 380, Falcon and Commodore with huge fuel consumption. Whilst many young people with families now would opt for small economical cars, unless they are extremely wealthy and go for luxury europeans. The middle band would still opt for small to medium sized cars, because if they are smart enough, they would realise that maintaining a large car would eat up their savings.

  • Godspeed

    I don’t think it has helped that both tastes and the key drivers of importance in the purchasing decision for buyers in Australia have changed…

    As the most competitive car market in the world (number of manufacturers with cars on sale) it’s obvious we strongly value choice itself. It is interesting to look at a country like Japan where such a great proportion of cars sold are domestic – are they more patriotic than us Aussies? I wouldn’t say so.

    So maybe it’s variety? Under increasing pressure in the industry (pressure to take over another company or be taken over, produce a greater number of models to maintain share of the market and hence profitability), it’s going to be hard to Oz – brands such as Audi/VW are able to readily share common platforms to create a wide variety of models, including some niche models that generate excitement for the brand. Meanwhile in Japan there is a bewildering array of models that share common platforms, and domestic buyers seem to lap them up.

    Maybe it’s status. Australian buyers have become increasingly status-conscious, with more and more consumers valuing “European styling” and so on. Guys like Ford (with the BA/BF Falcon) have then tried to push the Euro-angle. Australia ranks as having amongst the highest per-capita ownership of BMWs in the world. Most of these are small/mid size 1 and 3-Series.

    Or maybe it’s just fuel? As a country we’ve only started to embrace diesel as an attractive alternative in the last few years (in any significant numbers anyway). And the gas is only gonna get more expensive and cars just get bigger and bigger, so aside from who wants one, who NEEDS a big aussie six or V8 any more?

    The new Torana could just be a glimmer of hope…

  • Drac

    Not many people who have to drive around and park in a city such as Sydney want to do so in a 17-1800kg barge. The petrol prices don’t help but ultimately these cars were not designed with practicality in mind… the visibility (front and rear) from a commodore and falcon highlight that.

    Small cars are catching up and in many cases have caught up and surpassed these larger cars in regards to drivability and performance, and the practicality and fuel savings just pushes people towards them.

  • The Axe

    Other than Nick, some good points there.

    Not only has the large car declined rapidly, meaning local manufacturing has suffered, the “large” family has also declined. There is less need for a large sedan like Falcon/Commodore etc.
    Then there is the SUV explosion. The market for these vehicles alone has rapidly increased compared to the 1990′s. Fuel prices are also an issue, but with all three manufacturers making large sedans that are more efficient than ever, the fuel price arguement isn’t so strong. But many missinformed people have traded their large cars for small to medium.
    As mentioned in the article the combination of a strong $A and reduced tarriffs have simply made imported cars more affordable.

  • Frugal One

    Said it before and say it again…

    New Orion is doomed, wrong car at the wrong time going into a segmant which is getting smaller and smaller.

    Together with the fact that its just a reskin, has a obsolete engine, closing of Geelong Plant, makes Ford look like a modern day Mitsubishi.

    All not bad news, heaps and heaps of FORD product that can be imported into our market

    BEFORE-YOU-CALL-ME-ANTI-LOCAL, I HAVE-OWNED-2-FALCONS, A-XF-UTE-AND-A-XH2-UTE!!!

    Cheers

    F-0

  • azza85

    For me I’d have to say build quality and features along with after purchase car are the big factors impacting our home grown products.

  • Frugal One

    >>>

    Errrr, no, the market is OWNED by Toyota, 5th year market-leader, top sellers in nearly every single catagory.Inc. luxo with the Lexus

    Cheeers

    F-0

  • Outback

    Also the product gap between the “large cars” and the “medium size” cars is closing. This is especially noticeable with the Mondeo/Falcon and Camry/Aurion. Families now have a choice of style and engine for a given size of car.

  • TP

    RIGHT ON NICK. People are starting to lose their loyalities towards Ford and Holden as they have enough of their poor quality vehicles… you just have to look at the Aurions sales compared to the Avalons to realise this, a half decent competitor, they start buying in their droves. One thing Im interested in, is it that bad if the local car industry does go and we import? Fair enough for those employed its bad but as a consumer, I wander if it would result in a fairer competitive market (not tariffs giving unfair advantages) resulting in gains to the consumer.

  • jbot

    It is good that Ford are looking to build the next Focus in Australia. Most people are downsizing, after realising they really don’t need a large car (i.e. all of the locally built vehicles atm), and they can get a smaller car which is more agile, higher spec, and cheaper to run for the same price!

  • Duck

    If i was going to be a new car it would be an australian made vehicle like the Mitsu 380, Toyota Aurion, Holden Commodore Etc.

  • ford freak

    i still dont care how gr8 ppl say toyota is i rather by a holden than one of those ugly buckets n im a ford person, the only reason our ausie made cars r so ecpensive is casue they chose to biuld the cars in oz which costs more than it dose to bild in asia
    no matter what there is no asian made car in aus at the moment that can beat a xr6 turbo so id rather a ford n any way fords r cheaper than most toyotas so how dose that work?

  • james

    Don’t 80% of falcons and comm’s goto fleet buyers?

    High volume low margin stuff guys, this is the market the likes of Mazda and Honda avoid pretty much, they get full dollar for their sales and keep their overheads down at the same time. Its not about units sold, it’s about profit, the two AU manufacturers are building for fleet sales to a large extent, its the shite end of the market. Dont jump on me, toyo are in their as well and hurting. The tariff should be removed completely, let consumers CHOOSE what they want to buy without having to pay a premium for it, thats called an open market and producers must adjust and compete in it accordingly, if they cant, they fail.

  • TP

    Exactly James… open the market up, I think it would benefit consumers, if Ford + Holden Aus cant handle it then bad luck, thats business… not government protection.

  • james

    its about competition improving the market, Holden put so much into VE which is a fleet seller (yup, exported as well)that they are now bringing in old Korean vehicles, read Barina, Viva, Epica and Captiva. Gee, competition is really working a treat when 10 year old engineering is the best they can do and provide to Australian Buyers, and sorry, dont throw price and kit at me, thats what Daewoo did in the nineties and we all laughed and they went broke. Mostly these cars are old in an engineering sense and not as safe as the competiition, lets not forget they will fall apart in 3 or 4 years time.

    Some real good strategic planning there from Holden.

    Ford, Kudo’s on the mondeo, focus etc tho I suspect they will have their issues. I think by just reskining the old Falcon they have acted fairly smartly, why spend a fortune in developing a LARGE fleet seller?

  • Andrew M

    TP,
    do you always have to be so shallow in your comments?
    dont forget your beloved Aurion is also one of these “local” cars that is being branded in this article, and it is actually toyota who is kicking and screaming the most in regards to the aussie dollar and import tariffs.

    I agree with most other comments though, that we here in OZ are pretty spoilt for choice.
    i particularly agree with “Godspeed” and “The Axe”

    i think people who down grade vehicle size to combat fuel consumption are also misguided. if you step back from the large Aurion to the mid sized camry you save nothing.
    if you step back from the falcon to the midsized mondeo well you do save a bit but its not what i would call lifestyle changing savings.

    you have to go to a small diesel car in my opinion to really satisfy your need to save on your fuel consumption.
    Plus with SUV’s soaring ahead i doubt those people think thaey are going to get a better deal when it comes to consumption, so i find it funny and contradicting when i find a comment/article stating “SUV sales are soaring” and “people are leaving the large/family category in search of fuel savings”.

    In all i would say it is the choice factor and cars being more affordable then they once were. also so the “Euro flare” we seem to be chasing aswell

  • james

    Hey Andrew, you hit it on the head, CHOICE, I want to buy the car I like, why am I paying a tariff premium on it just because I don’t like the local offerings. When you say “Euro flair” does that include refined drivetrains as well?? Sorry Holden, but that Omega is a disgrace :(

  • Ryk

    Well, here is my humble opinion. I have a local car (2002 VY Commodore), and have had nothing but trouble since it hit 100,000 k’s, and here is the thing, I bought an extra mechanical warranty, but do you think Holden wants to honour that, nope, they will come up with any excuse not to fix the problems on the car.

    I am looking at getting a SUV, type car for the family in Feb, and have been looking high and low, wide and narrow, comparing reading reviews etc, and basically I honestly wanted to support the local market. So what I did was to send a nice little email to Ford enquiring about when there will be a facelift on the Territory and when we can expect a Diesel version of it. Well, the reply I got was nothing short of, arrogant, abrupt and plain rude.

    Now when I recently walked into the Toyota and Mazda garage enquiring about the Kluger and the CX-9, and even when I contacted Toyota AU and Mazda AU and basically asking the same question regarding Diesel, the response was so much better, and credit to the Toyota garage who even allowed me to walk through their service department where I spent some time with Toyota owners that have had their cars for years, and out of warranty, and when I asked about the service they received, it was nothing short of full praise and glory to the service men and Toyota. Even spoke with a guy that had an engine blow up just after the new car warranty ran out, and he told me how Toyota AU came to the party and covered 75% of the cost.

    Now ladies and gentlemen, for me the question is not so much about how good the car is and how long it will last, for me it is a matter of, hey all cars will break, but when they do, what sort of service will I get. And in this case, I am sorry to say, I want something that says: “Made in Japan”, because the local market seems to cut costs to give you a crappy car that will break much more frequently than the imports, and then they just rub their hands and see the cash come in, because that is where they nail you!!

    Anyways, that was my 5 bob worth.

  • Andrew M

    James,
    for one second i didnt think you were going to include toyota in you fleetsales speech.
    yes we must not all forget that Toyota is prob one of the largest fleet sellers as a whole nameplate.

    for have actually stated that they dont want to attract fleet sales so much anymore particularly with the mondeo and i guess with the focus aswell.

    and as touched on earlier asian cities such as Japan have a lot of values when it comes to purchasing their own products. if only australians has as much value in buying their own products. but then again they also have a lot more local manufacturers to choose from.

  • james

    Andrew there is a price to pay for chasing volume, and its called fleet sales, Toyota are bleeding as well, no probs understanding that mate.

    Sorry, but screw loyalty, I work bloody hard for my money, I want the best product for my purposes, thats not AU product in my particular case, so why do I pay a penalty for it?

  • Andrew M

    RYK,
    yep i partially agree mate (sadly)

    i personally havent had any bad experiences with my “Australian” ford dealer but it is disturbing to hear those that complain so much about the poor attention they are given from ford and holden. (i do hear a bit worse from holden owners though)

    you dont have to visit an Asian city for long before you realise they pride themselves in service. perhaps a little of that ethic rubs off here too.
    although in that you must keep in mind i suppose that dealerships arent owned by the manufacturer and some may actually give better service than that of another under the same banner

  • Andrew M

    Fair enough James,

    yes you will find better products than the AU stuff but as a whole i think for what Aus offers, and the price it sells at, it isnt that bad a value

  • Ryk

    Andrew-M

    “dealerships arent owned by the manufacturer and some may actually give better service than that of another under the same banner” — agreed, but in this case I actually talked to my Holden regional manager and explained to him what my situation was, well, he was in Tassie, and his words to me was — “Well I am not liable for your damage mate, tuff sh**”, that was his exact words, so I thought I will plead my case to Holden Australia, and I basically got the, who are you, what can you do for me and how can I use to to where I want to get, and they just told me it is not their problem. Well, in my case the car did 100,091 k’s and blew 6 major seals, cost me 2.5K, but what frustrates me was a report that my dealership gave me when it went in for a service at 91K’s that said slicht engine oil leak, will fix on the 100K service. So I asked the service manager, will this car still be under warranty on the 100K service and he assured me that it was, well, here I am today and in hind sight I can tell you that he obviously denied it, and I ended up paying for their mistakes, and oh yea what about the time they serviced my car and did not put oil back in again???? Who had to pay??? Oh yea, you guessed it — ME!

    I agree with what you are saying, but on a scale from 1 – 10 for me, the after market service from the dealer as well as the company rates @ 9.

  • Andrew M

    wow far out no wonder you hate them…

    i would take that further if i was you.
    I read the ford warranty terms quite closely a while back and it clearly states that if the problem is raised before the warranty expires then that is when the date and K’s of the fault should be considered and therefore in your situation it would have been covered.

    i would have thought the holden terms would be similar in that situation?????
    was the found leak not noted in writing on the report you got back?

    at the ford dealership i use/used the actual manager was ever so nice and helpfull and attended to my every request. on the other hand the new “assistant manager” i couldnt stand. he even had a go at me for not vacumming the service loaner car before i returned it. he was also sceptical about any problems or queries i had.

    but when it mattered the manager was the be all and end all and i never had any problems and was treated very well i suppose

  • Ryk

    Ah well Andrew-M, it was noted, they did not want to honour that, but its in the past now. The car now just clocked over to 148,000k’s, and I do begin to hear a slight vibration in the cheap korean AC pump, so guess what, another cheap part bites the dust! He he he.

    My dad has a Ford, and he is VERY happy with the car and the service, and I have to say, I love that car too, but I hear the same ‘bad ford service’ birds chirping that you hear, and that is a massive concern for me too.

    OUr local manufacturers will at some point have to face the fact that their bad service reputation is slow suicide.

  • phil

    Why are we building cars ppl don’t want?
    If we have to produce cars why not make something sellable?
    BMW seem to sell plenty 1 series cars, people will pay a premium for smaller cars as long as they are well built.

  • http://www.myspace.com/j_denava John

    I think the best way for the Aussie carmakers is to make small/medium cars here in Australia because we all know that the market is changing and most people these days are looking for small, fuel efficient cars (due to the high oil prices). This is the new trend, so if they want more shares in the market they should invest their money into building well built small cars

  • Craig B

    They don’t make cars we want to buy. Simple.

    We run a 2.5i Liberty wagon. Everything else on the market is simply too big, and we can’t get a wagon in the only four pot option, the Camry.

    So, no deal.

  • The Axe

    It’s funny how you didn’t reply to me TP…

    Phil the BMW 1-series sold 121 units in Nov and 1643 Jan-Nov 07, a 14.8% decline over the same period in 06. So not worthy of trying to build something like that here!

    We really should be building Corolla and Hilux here as they are strong fleet sellers, with a loyal private component. Once Focus is build here that will help the local count. And obviously exports of these vehicles will help.

  • http://ACA Hilko

    I must say, i love the picture of the golden Aurion Sportivo on the cover of this article.

    Does it for me. Had a look at an Aurion the other day as i am looking about for a new car and i found the car more inviting then anticipated.

    If i brought one i will add window tint, sportivo carpet floor mats, a quality dash mat and woollen seat covers. By the time i have done that, i reckon the Aurion Sportivo would certainly look the part.

  • http://ACA Hilko

    Axe – you are correct, the Corolla and Hilux are fleet sellers but they are also strong private sellers aswell hence the popularity of these two vehicles.

    Infact, i believe the Corolla and Hilux are Australia’s second and third biggest sellers of any vehicle.

  • Andrew M

    they dont make cars we want to buy here???

    well yes and no.
    that maybe true for the large family cars seeing buggerall growth, but dont forget the rapid sales the territory gained when it cashed in on the SUV explosion. also the falcon ute and commy ute sales seem strong enough to hold their own.

    but as a whole stereotype we only offer 4 vehicles that are made here and that is effectively 1 car from each manufacturer (without getting technical).
    now place that as a ratio of vehicles that are for sale in OZ and it will show the australian made vehicles we have on offer is only a drop in the australia car buyers ocean

    perhaps the up coming focus to be built here might help to curb it aswell.

  • Andrew M

    Hilko,
    arent you Dingo/Mikka?

    The Axe,
    i doubt we will see the hilux or corolla built here as they are sold more globally than other australian offerings.
    if toyota were to bring either of them here they would have to geared massivly towards export, and since the strong aussie dollar and import taxes being lowered are already threatening toyota australias future here i doubt they would want to throw another one in the aussie basket

  • http://navelcontemplation.blogspot.com Supercujo

    Craig B… I just had a really freaky moment. My name is Craig (T instead of B though) also and we have a 2.5i Liberty Wagon.

    Best damn car I have ever owned. If I had any complaints, i would say the auto hunts a bit and you have to rev it a bit to get a move on. Comfort, safety and spec wise, I can’t complain one bit.

  • Mike

    Can I just say that every single manuafacturer whether in Aust or an importer has troubles with their cars. They have goods ones and they have lemons. For example I have an 87 2ltr Camira, which I have owned since new and it has just clocked over 502000 klms with the original engine. It has been a fantastic car. I also know someone who bought a new Mazda RX7 and had to have an new engine installed after just 40000 klms. Good and Bad…..

  • Tom

    I think that it is definitely an issue of size. Large car sales are declining and there’s no (or very little) locally produced small and medium cars (correct me if I’m wrong).

    While it would be a shame for people to lose their jobs, I would hate to see an artificial tariff introduced to raise prices of imports again.

    The locals need to be more competitive somehow. They have started to make good cars, and some of them are even screwed together properly (previously a big problem for Holden and Ford), but you still get better quality and value for money from overseas (volumes, especially US sales are the key driver there I think).

    But, economically, Australia has to start exporting more value-added products and services, not just raw materials. We send our raw materials overseas and buy them back after a great deal of value has been added by someone else.

    To this end, it might make economic sense to prop up our car industry until they can get a handle on things, but how long do you wait?

    Perhaps Australia should skip the manufacturing and move into finance and technology. Leave the manufacturing to countries that can do it cheaper than we can here.

    Come on Holden, build that new “Torana”. And where is Ford’s locally build mid-size?

  • greg

    Toymoto sux, too many on the road, common as as a dog crapping on your lawn, they have quality problems as much as any other car on the road, but I must say they make great granny wheelchairs and one of them is called sportivo with mags…Ford will improve sales in near future when more people notice the effort they’re making including the arrival of Orion, euro quality in med-small car’s and better marketing, so LOOK OUT Ford is coming back…

  • Oz.

    I agree Greg. By the sound of this, Australian companys need hatch backs. So FoA are going to make the Focus in OZ. and if the Falcon Orion will look fresh and drive exelent(Ford are wanting to die if they not doing it), it will save the large car segment.

  • golfschwein

    Vee Dub driver here. With hand on heart, I want Australian manufacturers to succeed with unique product sold here and throughout the world.

    I would just want an Aussie car, like the ones I grew up with, to be better than the VS Commodore piece of roobbash I once had.

    So, survival of the fittest, I say. Build us modern, good quality and good value cars that reflect our changeing tastes and aspirations – where’s the VE Turbo Diesel? – and the rest will fall into place.

    Make us WANT them, whatever they are…cos I don’t want an Omega with its placcy hubcaps and 4 speed dunger tranny more than I want my Golf.

  • http://navelcontemplation.blogspot.com Supercujo

    Greg: When there is a lot of a certain model/make of car on the road, there is generally a good reason for it. Either it is cheap price or excellent quality, but bagging Toyota for being successful isn’t good. Are you going to complain when you see too many Falcons on the road? I thought not.

    Reminds me of a old joke I once heard…

    Q: Why is a Falcon/Commodore called a clitoris car?
    A: ‘Cos every c**t’s got one

    I’m surprised most Falcon/Commodore owners can actually find their cars in a car park :)

  • Watto_Cobra

    Haha been a long time since I’ve heard that old joke Supercujo, it isn’t really like that anymore I guess.

    I don’t have that car park problem because mines a bit different.

  • greg

    Supercujo, such a original joke you make, so bluddy funny hahahaha, this joke was created for dunnydores not Ford, though this joke has carried over to Toyoda land, sorry to say….

    Q: Why is Toyota found at retirement village’s
    A: Cause every granny has got one…

  • http://navelcontemplation.blogspot.com Supercujo

    Watto: Different? Your missus shaved an arrow for you? Oh, I guess you mean the car :)

    Greg: I’m not arguing that Toyota makes a damn good granny car, but I reckon that a lot more non grannys are buying Toyotas. There has to be a damn good reason for that.

  • Masynee

    Any car I am considering buying is an import, which is a shame because I’d love to buy a local product: there are just none of interest.

    Love the Commodore, but the Omega needs a better auto or manual. The only one I’d seriously consider is the SV6 manual, but that’s getting expensive and I just don’t need or want that much space and the fuel economy is a major issue with $1.50 petrol.

    My brother just went through the same process and bought a Suzuki Grand Vitara. Personally I wouldn’t want an SUV but the explosion of SUV sales seem to be in indirect correlation with the decline of traditional Aussie sixes. With only the Territory locally made, it’s no wonder imports are rising.

    In any other class three is no option than to buy imported. Mine will be one of those imported small car sales in the next year or so. Last year I bought a Swift.

    Previously I’ve had a Lancia, Mazda, Toyota, Camira and two Falcon’s.

    I’d seriously consider the Torana if it was available – and as good as it looks.

    Basically it’s hard to buy local even if you want to.

    With regard to the import tax. I’d immediately increase the tax on 4WD’s. The current concession is ridiculous – UNLESS you can prove the vehicle is for work use e.g. farmers. Mum’s driving kids to school shouldn’t get a discount when they could just as easily be using an Astra, Lancer etc.

    But since locals don’t produce a small car, they wouldn’t benefit anyway.

    Having said all that it’s easy to beat up the locals for not producing a small or medium car – however, is it realistic for them to do so? They would have to invest millions / a billion (VE) to come up with a competitive unique design for a very small market. Parent companies wouldn’t be interested in offered exports as they all already have product in the smaller categories.

    That’s why what Holden has done with the Commodore is very smart. Our locals have to think in niche terms. The only way the Torana becomes viable is if GM worldwide want such a mid size read drive product.

    The only way to produce locally without the investment would be to build a foreign design as Ford will do with the Focus. That’s better than importing IMO, but there’s no brains trust involved in the process. Our local designers and engineers deserve to have those skills used here or they will have to go overseas and we lose another local industry.

    Niche exports are our only road from here if we are to continue to design and build local cars.

  • greg

    Each to their own I guess but I hate when people overrate a Toyota or Holden, thinking it’s ducks guts, when I look for a car I do my homework and not to use my emotions to cloud logic before or after purchase..there are many models I like including a few not even in Australia..

  • Typhoid

    all people want is value for money in the long term. thing with local manufacturer is that sure it is cheap to buy and the magazines always give local cars raving reviews. but you know its just all show to promote it.

    these issues always arise for emerging local manufacturers. it is more or less the same issue with proton in the neighbours up north.

    if they cant compete then might as well close shop.

  • Westy

    I do a lot of country klms and I can say I would much rather do it in a large car than a small car. When it comes to overtaking and also towing a load you simply cannot beat a nice Falcon I6 with a six speed box behind you. Recently just covered 3000kms in 3 days and it was a great drive. If you are simply driving around in the city I understand the reasonings behind people using smaller cars but when it comes to country driving you get great mileage from a Falcon 8-9 L/100km and even towing a load it doesn’t seem to affect mileage greatly. It will be a sad day if we lose local manufactured vehicles especially the Ford and Holden brands as we will be at the mercy of imported pricing which is where we are heading with most industries in Australia. Yes it might be ok now but if we don’t produce anything locally to compete well we cannot complain if imports come back to bite us in the behind when local products no longer exist!!

    Cheers,

    Westy.

    PS (Nick you have no idea. I have owned several of the last Falcon models and everything works fine. Never had a problem. Not sure where you get your information but you obviously don’t own one or haven’t owned one.)

  • http://ACA Hilko

    Watto, i don’t see any grannies driving a Hilux, Prado or V8 Cruiser.

    Andrew, Who is Dingo/Mikka and why am i him/them ?

    I read a good story today by CNN about the declining sales of The General and Ford in the US and they both stated because they are selling less to the fleet market.

    The interviewer replied with a great question and asked why then the private market had not picked up the extra slack.

    Good response i thought.

  • http://navelcontemplation.blogspot.com Supercujo

    Westy: I’m sure you could save 30% or more (5-6 L/100km) off your long distance fuel costs by moving to a mid-sized car. They can still tow (not a big boat though) and they are just as comfortable.

  • laurie

    So why the passion for a race each Oct where Holden & Ford race V8′s ?.European Touring car races give better indication of car trends than this 2 sided race

    laurie

  • Andrew M

    supercujo,
    mate no way in the world will you save 5-6L off your fuel bill by moving to a mid sized car. there seems to be a massive perception out there it will.

    if he downsized his falcon to a mondeo for eg he wouldnt even 1L/100k.
    even going one step down further to a Focus wouldnt save 5-6L/100k. it would prob only save half of that difference. only if you went for the diesel focus would you come somewhere near that claim.

    also a mondeo wont tow anywhere near as well as a falcon.
    for one the mondeo (like all mid sized cars) is FWD.
    also if stepping to a midsized mondeo you would sacrifice near half the power and most importantly half near the torque.

    i didnt see westy whinging about the fuel consumption so why the suggestion of moving to a mid sized car?

    if he was really worried i would say get it on LPG.

    i too tow, and pretty much everyday. i appreciate how effortlessly the falcon I6 pulls a decent load along and no way in the world would i trade it off for 1L less consumption and for something that wont do it as good.

    if you havent towed a half decent load with a falcon before i can assure you there is a noticable difference.
    my falcon is a manual too so you will realise it more so than in an auto that does the changing for you.
    its surprising how even with a load on doing 60kmh with about 1800rpm on the tacho that the falcon will pull up a grade with out having to throw it back a gear

    Im with ya Westy,
    i say long live the I6

  • Chucky

    “Hilko Says:
    January 4th, 2008 at 4:24 pm
    Watto, i don’t see any grannies driving a Hilux, Prado or V8 Cruiser.”

    That still doesn’t make up for all those ugly piece of crap Corollas on the road. Some people just have no clue and no imagination when it comes to cars, so they just follow each other like lemmings off a cliff. Just about any new small car these days from Japan at least is reliable, yet you wouldn’t think so if you asked Mr & Mrs Lemming down the road.

    The old Corolla was one of the worst in its class, yet the lemmings still bought it by the truckload because their brother’s girlfriend’s father’s workmate said it was the best thing since sliced bread. The new one looks like something that came out of an elephant’s backside, but that won’t change anything. You don’t have to buy a Toyota even if all you want is to get from A to B reliably.

  • Watto_Cobra

    Hilko, I don’t understand why this is directed at me :-

    Hilko says: “Watto, i don’t see any grannies driving a Hilux, Prado or V8 Cruiser.”

    When did I mention Hilux, Landcruiser lately??? Only time I’ve mentioned Prado recently was today on the “Petrol to hit $1.50 per litre” blog. What I said was :-

    Watto says: “I know what you mean Andrew.M. A year ago, a workmate was planning to replace his written off VT Commodore with a Commodore or Falcon. But his fiance insisted on a 4WD/SUV and they ended up with a Prado. She said “to feel safer”?? He says it’s been a good vehicle, except he’s paying more for tyres, fuel, etc. He goes fishing and says there was only one occasion when he actually needed a 4WD to get into a spot, and would prefer to have bought a sedan.”

    I never mentioned grannies, Hiluxs or Landcruisers, so what is with the cryptic comment?

    I believe Greg mentioned Toyota and granny in the same post.

  • Carl

    I just bought a 12 month old lpg falcon with just 13,600 k’s on the clock and it cost me $21,000 from a ford dealer and while my fuel bills are slightly less than my wifes yaris the masive depreciation in the first year has to be a factor in turning people away. Also other than lpg there is no real option like diesel or god forbid some sort of hybrid for people who want to buy australian but can’t afford the fuel bills of the current australian built cars.

  • Andrew M

    Carl,
    dont worry diesel isnt too far away for the territory or falcon. its apparently coming before 2010. id reckon the territory will see it when the new facelift arrives as there has been much public demand for them to offer it.

    yes perhaps depreciation is an issue in the back of people mind too.

    i think it must be kind of some factor like people will only pay so much for a car whether its small or large.
    also the used car market is up the shyte because new cars are so affordable. i remember reading a while ago that their was plenty of used cars due to that and hence meaning lower prices for them

  • Watto_Cobra

    Yep, depreciation is a fact of life. Commodore and Falcon are probably worse than others. That’s why I’ve kept my car for 7 years (I bought it when it was 12 months old too). It’ll become my 2nd car when I buy a new one in 6 months. I’ll stick with local.

    Buying them a year old like you have Carl, is the only way to win :-)

  • Andrew M

    spot on Watto,

    if for private use 2nd hand with it just run in is the best way to go.

    also the camry hasnt been that flash for resale either since it came down under. the Aurion isnt old enough to get a good trend on but i’d bet it wont be any better

    maybe its just aussie stuff in general?

  • No Name

    Think I said this before, but the marketing boys in Ford and Holden need shooting. If theres no demand for local cars then you gotta make what the locals want.

    Golfie your spot on with the VE diesel bit. Holden have no excuses. There’s already a 3.0ltr diesel engine available, Its in the Vectra in Europe not the best though. Ford, Holden and Mitsubishi Australia will dissapear if they don’t pull there fingers out. You’ll end up with more rebadged cars from around the world or you’ll all be driving Toyatas like Mikka.

    Its obviously and emotive subject given the amount of comments.

  • Wheelnut

    What I don’t get is that we currently have tarrifs of 10% to help protect what is one of Australias major industries.

    Yet there are other countries in the world where their tarrifs on which range from 50 to 200% and alot of thes countries either:
    don’t have an auto industry like we do or;
    don’t have an auto industry at all – they don’t make cars.

    And some of these are our closest neighbours/major trading partners.

  • Wheelnut

    The main reason the Govt has continually reduced the tarrifs on cars is because when Little John first got into power he had his heart set on a “level playing field” in relation to international trade..

    At first countries like the US and the UK weren’t sold on the idea However overtime politicians and beaurecrats managed to convince them that it was the way to go.

    So we [the govt] signed various “Free Trade Agreements” with our major trading partners.

    As part of the agreement was the condition that both parties gradually reduce tarrifs/subsidies.. as these were seen as the two main obstacles to “Free trade”

    As Howard was the “genius” behinf the idea we were the first – and so far the only ones to do so

    Since then the Howard government continued to reduce tarrifs on cars.. not realising that the other countries hadn’t done anything.

    A couple of years ago the US Trade Minister said “we may sign an agreement or treaty.. However; if at any time we believe that it’s not in the best interests of the Unitesd States we will ignore it or walk away from it.

    As it stands the we have the lowest tarrif at 10% the next one is closer to 20%. If the Govt reduces it further we risk becoming a “dumping ground”

  • Carl

    i believe we should have no tarrifs on all products not just cars that come from countries that pay their workers at similar rates to ours and massive tarrifs on all products that come from countries that pay slave wages….PROBLEM solved, it would be very easy to do and would be a massive disincentive for corporations to move overseas for higher profits because there products would cost the same here once the “slave wage tarrif” was imposed.
    please someone explain to me what is wrong with that idea and why it wouldn’t work???

  • Wheelnut

    No Name – what we Australians have to do is realise that if our aussie made products [including cars] are good enough for those overseas than surely they must be good enough for us.. It’s like they say “The rest of the world buys Australian do You?

    However; there are so many aussies today that are trying to outdo the jones’ let alone keep up with them..

    The sad fact of the matter is we are so obsessed with
    “image” that there are those who would accept nothing less than a BMW or Lexus – just so they can say things like “it’s imported you know..” even though they can’t really afford it.

    Which is why you get people saying that the Tarrifs should be reduced.. because they believe it will make BMWs cheaper. When infact all that will happen is BMW will maintain the current price inorder to increase profits – Which I guess shows you how dumb these Euro-lites are.

    If tarrifs do fall and this “imported” trend continues.. it’s most likely our auto industry will disappear.. only then will these Eurolites realise how important it was.

    They like to think their okay because they don’t work directly within the motor industry yet its estimated that for every job lost in the auto industry 4 jobs are lost in another industry.

    PS

    Australia [unfortunately] has a history of “the tall poppy syndrome” we hate to see other aussies do well – except it seems when it involves international sport.. Therefore my question is why should cars be any different?

  • http://www.finalgear.com/ Andrew

    I’ve been driving for 15 years and all my cars have been imported, mostly from Europe. For me a car is more than just transport. I’m behind the wheel nearly every day so I may as well enjoy it and IMO the Europeans just do it better.

  • Wheelnut

    One major problem Carl – very few countries pay there workers similar rates to what we pay ours which is why their products are so cheap to begin with.

    That’s not to say that making things like cars here is expensive.. infact one of the most costly places to build cars is the US – thanks to the Agreement the Big 3 signed with American Auto Workers Union back in the 80s..

    Yet the reason their cars are cheaper is they have such a huge population and turnover is so great

    I have real issues with the Chinese trend to:

    At the moment its cheaper to make things in China. Therefore more and more companies are setting up factories in China. nd because it;’s cheaper to make stiff there the goods are also cheaper

    Yet if the trend continues; have no doubt the chinese governmentn will increase/impose taxes and levies etc.

    As a result it will eventually become more expensive to make stuff there and the companies will [try to] pull out
    But by that point the [Car] industry in Australia and elsewhere would probably have disappeared

    It will be to expensive to start up again so they’ll be stuck in china and we’ll be stuck having to pay higher prices inorder to cover the increase in costs/taxes.

    That’s why we got to do whatever we can to protect our Australian industries – not only the Auto industry

  • Andrew M

    obviously a touchy subject.

    for me ive lived in australia nearly everyday so i may aswell enjoy it.
    therefore i find it important to protect our economy
    we are not talking about getting bmw’s here cheaper, its purely about the australin economy, and thats the part people are obviously missing

    see Andrew it works both ways

  • golfschwein

    Cuppla thoughts: someone here rued the non-availability of a current Camry wagon. To my knowledge, such a vehicle isn’t available anywhere in the world right now. But imagine its fuel consumption. If the automatic sedan’s 9.9l/100km (same as the Aurion, wot a larf), what would a wagon’s be? What am I saying?

    This next bit could cause a bit of fun: You can buy a Captiva Turbo Diesel, weighing in at 1825kg with 110kw and 320 Nm. Apparently, it’s a very good combo, displaying the usual easy chugga chug nature and plentiful torque you get with modern diesels. There are no acceleration figures available that I can see, so safe to assume it could well post a blistering nought to 100kay time of 11.1 to 11.5 seconds, same as my Golf. Okay, no fireball. But plenty of deceptive whoosh around town and on the highway.

    VM Motori’s new V6 diesel, which everyone assumes would be the perfect fit under the Commy’s bonnet, is a goer for 2009. That’s next year. Time keeps on tickin’.

    With a little less weight than a Captiva and superior aerodynamics, and with only 10Nm less than an Omega, I wonder how the Captiva’s four would go in the Commodore?

    I’m guessing you’d get a relaxed, torquey drive with good economy of around, say, 8.2. If you want 0-100 in 5.6 seconds, you choose a different Commodore or something else.

    Commodore Four, reprise thee!

  • http://www.finalgear.com/ Andrew

    Andrew M Says: “for me ive lived in australia nearly everyday so i may aswell enjoy it.therefore i find it important to protect our economy”

    I guess I’m not Australian then because I don’t buy Commodores or Falcons? I don’t buy a product because of where it comes from, I buy it because it fits my needs. This is how it works in the market place and if Japan, Germany or whomever can produce a product that fits my needs then that is what I call good market research and product development.

    Why aren’t Holden, Ford or Toyota producing smaller, more efficient cars here? From my computer chair it sounds like this is what the driving public are starting to switch to and what people want. It’s a case of loosing touch with your market and them looking elsewhere.

  • Watto_Cobra

    Ford’s taking the first step with the Focus. Hopefully the other three will also step up with smaller Aussie built cars alongside the trademark big family 6 or 8.

    I’m not much for Corolla’s, but if people are going to keep buying so many of them, I wish they’d make them here.

  • http://www.finalgear.com/ Andrew

    Further to my post whinging about Aussie manufactures not reading what the market place is doing I am not one to complain without a solution.

    If I was made head of Holden of Ford in Australia I would look seriously into making a firm commitment into LPG, one beyond the TAXI industry. Australia has a lot of it and people are familiar with Commodores and Falcons using it. I would then advertise that we are investing $X into developing it further, we plan to bring out more efficient, higher technology LPG cars. You will not loose boot space or power. All our dealers will be trained in servicing them and we plan on lobbying the government on securing our Australian resource which is LPG.

    I would aim to give Australian’s what they want. A family car that is made by Australian’s and a running cost that is not subject to unrest in Nigeria, a weakening US dollar or whatever the excuse is this week.

  • No Name

    Golfie – not far wrong with the performance figures of the Captiva, I just check the vauxhall website at the Antara (same car) 11.1secs to 100Kmh for the 150P.S. 2.0ltr diesel.
    GOLF GOLF GOLF
    If you’re interested in a tuned up Golf 2.0 diesel try this 173KW loadsa torque and better power to weight than an M3. go to http://www.redlinemag.com ask me nicely and i’ll buy it to send over (scanned). It was done up by a 20yr old over here UK.

  • Bavarian Missile

    Hey I think Ford and Holden have moved big steps in changing their old lineups….years ago they survived on the main big family car but thats no longer the case! Think about how far both have moved ahead in manufacturing and new makes in the last 10 years!

    Someone explain to me if you think big cars are being phased out cause small and mid sized cars are more in demand …..why then are SUVs booming!

  • Watto_Cobra

    I’ve mentioned this elsewhere but I will again because it is relevant to your comment Andrew.

    In the 16th November Cars Guide in the Herald-Sun there was a few pages on LPG. One article was about a new type of gas tank. Here is the direct quote :-
    ——————————————
    An LPG tank that is mounted under a vehicle to preserve boot space is now available in Australia.

    Propane Performance Industries (PPI) says its rectangular-shaped conformable tank is half the height of a round tank with the same volume, allowing for easier under-chassis installation or petrol tank replacement.

    PPI director Guy Obren says the tank has been designed by the engineering firm that builds NASA rockets.

    “It sounds a bit cheesy, but our tanks are actually designed by rocket scientists at Thiokol Corporation,” Obren says.

    “They build rockets for NASA’s space shuttle program and worldwide military and commercial propulsion systems.”

    The conformable tank’s flat, rectangular shape is due to its modular construction, which comprises a row of semi-circular aluminium cells joined by straight interlocking extrusions.

    The aluminium-constructed tank is claimed to weigh 50% less than a matching volume steel tank.

    This reduced weight increases a vehicle’s fuel efficiency, reduces suspension load and maintains its factory handling characteristics.

    The tanks are also claimed to offer superior safety in rear-end collisions, having successfully undergone crash trials in US police cars.

    Obren says they have withstood impacts at up to 160km/h.

    “Our tanks exceed every crash safety standard in the world,” he says.

    PPI is designing a wedge-shaped version that provides more ground clearance for off-road vehicles.

    “The wedge tank stays clear of the ground even at extremely low departure angles,” he says.

    “We’re also examining the possibility of installing wedge tanks vertically, in the space between a car’s boot and its back seat.”

    PPI is initially marketing 23cm and 30.5cm-high tanks through a national distribution network.

    The conformable tanks are dearer than cylindrical steel tanks, volume for volume.

    “Our tanks will never be cheap to manufacture because aluminium costs more than steel and we use a hi-tech production process,” he says.

    Obren is in the US taking part in a project with car modifier Chip Foose, aiming to produce 750kW from an LPG-injected 1970 Chevrolet Chevelle engine. The car is expected to tour Australia next year.
    ——————————————
    What I found most interesting was the accompanying photo showed Obren holding one of these tanks and right behind him was an E-gas Falcon (you could see the green valve/cam cover).

    I doubt Orion (or any car) would come with these tanks standard. But if it did, and if it has Direct Injection as rumors suggest, I think it’d be a sure fire winner. None of the usual disadvantages .ie. reduced boot space, reduced power, etc.

    I’d have one in a flash, especially if they did an E-gas XR6T as well.

    A car like that would satisfy the people who want an extremely economical AND large car.

  • No Name

    I believe the SUV thing is big due to the macho image, safety, fashion and the appalling roads. The same thing is happening here but not so noticeably.

    BM – I think there will always be big cars available just not so many produced. When the fashion chnages people will always return to the traditional cars layout. Poeple carriers are big over here, Ford Galaxy, Seat Alhambra, Renault Espace, Chrysler Voyager etc

  • Typhoid

    SUV is hotting up coz people who use to have big cars are either sizing up or sizing down. whats the point of being in the middle.

  • golfschwein

    Hi No Name. That’s a kind offer, but don’t go to any trouble. But if you do, I’m sure it will be worth a swap of a current issue of WHEELS ;)

    It’s a wild looking Golf, I’m sure Bavarian Missile will have something to say (maybe even a riotous giggle) about me lining up a modded Golf next to her M3 for a traffic light match-up. Especially if I keep it bog standard everywhere else!!!

    Speaking of BM, yes you’re right! Why oh why are people buying these things if they don’t go off-road?

  • No Name

    People have more surplus cash nowadays, big salaries, small mortgage, less kids about. What do you spend your money on….a status symbol…a nice SUV to impress the neighbours.

  • No Name

    Golfie – no probs mate, another good website for the diesel enthusiast http://www.whatdiesel.co.uk. Give stats and performance figures for many diesels available.

    I remember WHEELS well when I was in Mel. Good mag to read, a bit like our CARS here

  • Big Mike

    There are many reasons why local manufacturers are suffering at the moment. Here are just a few:
    1. The strong value of the Aussie dollar is making imports cheaper.
    2. The cost of living is too high and therefore driving up labour rates to the point where we cannot be competitive.
    3. We have militant unions who demand everything but give nothing in return thereby increasing costs.
    4. Australian manufacturers don’t pay heed to their demographic. Mitsubishi is a prime example.
    5. With oil prices hitting USD100.00 per barrel for the first time, who wants a big car?
    6. Australian car makers need to refine manufacturing processess by using techniques such as lean thinking – Toyota’s model.

    The truth is we can no longer afford an Australian car industry and we are all responsible for the death of it. Consumerism has been responsible for this in every other industry, electronics, clothing, chemicals, etc. It was only a matter of time before the auto industry caved.

  • http://ACA Mikka

    chucky – Corolla’s are good all-round cars with an impeccable history to support them.

    Being able to achieve the world’s no.1 biggest selling motor vehicle ever just does not happen by mistake regardless with what ever lame comment you may have to say. Better still, the previous model went against the trend and sold stronger in parts of the world at the end of it’s life cycle then during it.

    Explain that one if you can !!

    I know one thing for sure and that is most people with an ounce of motoring knowledge would dare not pass up a Corolla over one of those awful Holden Daewoo things.

    Just remember and don’t ever forget, Toyota sells no rubbish from Korea and i ain’t talking about Hyundai either.

    And another point, you don’t have to buy a Holden or Ford to enjoy driving either.

    Considering Toyota, Mazda, Honda, Subaru, Nissan, Mitsubishi, Hyundai and VW to name a few are all suppling cars of greater substance then ever before – why even bother looking at a Holden or Ford considering thier track record is amoungst the worst of any.

    Did you know that the Daewoo Epica is about to take out the 2007 new car dud of the year because if you didn’t, you do now.

    And let me remind you of something and be sure not to forget this either … The Ford Falcon and Holden Commodore were the two wooden spooners in the Leaked Australian Quality Survey. They each failed so miserably that every single other example including Hyundai’s managed to eclipse those two quality flawed motor vehicles.

    So, no matter what you say – it will never change the fact that despite some hard core Holden and Ford loyalists… much of the general public are full aware of the troubled history that plague these two locals and for as long as it persists as it still does today with the VE crapdore being a great example with it’s many quality related issues to date as published frequently by the variuos media organisations – they will be rightfully and correctly judged by the public accordingly.

    My i also remind you that Holden failed in EVERYSINGLE SEGMENT … that rights … EVERYSINGLE SEGMENT. Surely any half intelligent twit must grasp what that is telling us while Ford didn’t actually do that much better themselves.

    Then JD Powers and RAC actually agreed with one-another and described Holden and Ford as BELOW BENCHMARK so no matter what crap you speak on this site, obviuosly the bulk of the global population is seeing it otherwise and they are the true judges of any motor vehicle.

    So go on cyber freak – spend much of your life in La La land with Andrew, Watto and Bavarian sprucking on with Holden and Ford crap because to be absolutely brutally honest with ‘ya … you and the rest of your circus ain’t fooling anyone.

    Honestly answer this question for yourself – for as long as you the rest of your circus have been pondering internet sites blowing wind the pipes of Holden and Ford while chucking eggs at companies like Toyota … who has actually been the one walking away year after year having the last laugh.

    Infact … they ain’t just having the last laugh – they never stop laugh … PERIOD !!

    So … once again – while most of the Japanese and European manufactuers are skyrocketing to heights never enjoyed by any of them before … GM, Ford and Crysler have never struggled so much in thier entire existance as they do now.

    And the best thing about it all – they have no one to blame but themselves.

    So that said, i need not to bother debating with you people but instead i am just gonna sit back, crack open a beer each day and enjoy laughing at the clowns in your circus.

  • Bavarian Missile

    hahahaha………your right Golfschwein ,If you had a go at me in that you would win,cause I would be laughing so much Id miss the launch!hahaha

    How and why do people end up spending sooooooo much money on a car for it to look like that! Yuk!

    I guess us Hot Rodders have more taste or its the era you and I come from ! I could imagine your little Golf being replaced
    with something like that and having to park it on the street out the front! What would the neighbors say!!hahaha

  • Watto_Cobra

    Maybe you should go away Mikka.

    I prefer Ford (I have that right remember, no matter what you say) but still appreciate other brands. I haven’t had all these reliability issues you and TP keep bringing up so why should I switch brands? Because you’re telling everyone to?

    I’ve said before I liked the Aurion, particularly the TRD, yet you and TP keep hitting me with insults/names. I refused to get into that childish “warfare” thing yous had going on.

  • Bavarian Missile

    Mikka……..who is Sprucking…………????

    Mate what you don’t understand is that I like Toyota’s many a time I have come to their defense! I have owned several my sons first car was Seca he drives a Toyota Levin now !{Cause his Skyline is looking a little howyougoing}

    I am coming to the defense of Holden and Ford in this Country cause you don’t have a good thing to say about them!
    The rest of us manage to get on here ,most of the time,we have all had run ins with each other and have moved on to be good mates.Why can’t you just let go of the Toyota superior thing and start to agree there is a need for Ford and Holden in this country…..especially for those that have Muscle Car ties….something even you can say Toyota have ever done.Not that Im bragging but there is good and bad in ever car,just agree with that at lest!

    You know there are more Ford and Holden supporters than Toyota ones on the site so stop getting so defensive and maybe we can all get on!

    All we seemed to be doing at the moment is playing TIT for Tat and really not discussing the stories!

    Yep some people may arc you up some do to me especially on my beloved BMWs…….but sometimes its easier to say a little than get into a full on debate cause you want to win an argument…no one is scoring points here you know,Alborz isn’t giving us a free car at the end of the year if you win the most debates! Agree to disagree!

  • Bubba Ganush

    In regards to the country being a dumping ground for imported cars you only have to see that across the ditch.

    once tariffs were removed from imported vehicles you pretty much said good bye to the auto industry there.
    why buy a jap car from the showroom when you could pay far less for the same model with a different name and a few ks on the clock for far less?

    “Oh but Bubba the warranties, the service doesnt that count for something?” No because as some others have posted its all about keeping up with the jones and besides i can guarantee that not even half of us on this site can give us the first name of the guy that sold us our vehicles without digging into the glove box or vehicle log books to find out. This is how much service means to US THE CONSUMER.

    Parts become an issue for example when living there i had a 92 accord it was due for a new air cleaner, to cut a long story short there were 5 different aircleaners for the same model of car so you had to learn your part numbers off by heart (luckily mine was the last of the newzealand assembled vehicles)the same went for distributers and leads and everything else.

    “Who gives a crap its over there bloody dumb kiwis this is australia we are talking about?” I know but that is just a snap shot if whats to come.

    The same is happening with BMW,Mercedes and Audi. Importers are hitting Singapore and Britain and bringing old models back. “Oh but that keeps the dealers honest” not really it harms the consumer more than keeping the vendor honest i tell you M3 Beemers are bcoming more and more of an eyesore over there than ever. The 40 something doctor or accountant doesnt feel so proud now that he is driving the same car an early 20 year old drives. The feeling of having a one of a kind sort after car is gone and who do you think suffers due to depreciation not the 20 something uni student or tradie.

    alot of you are saying its what the consumer want and fair enough but at what cost?

  • Oz.

    Mikka, the reason why we have Ford/Holden supporters is because we love V8 Supercars, now don’t reply with comments againts V8 Supercar now as it’s Australia’s biggest motorsport event.

    Ford/Holden have been around long before Toyota has so don’t be so biased to it. as far as im concernd Toyota is just a company in Australia as an alternative to the traditional vechicles like the large RWD sedans.

    As Bavarian Missile said its the muscle car fans (Ford/Holden) and we have more fans of them than Toyota fans.

    And you have to remember your beloved Aurion is one of the so called “suffering” cars.

    Yes Ford and GM are suffering, but why do we now have to just like Toyota now

  • Wheelnut

    I seem to get the impression that with all the test results – such as ANCrAP; and surveys etc Mikka keeps referring to inorder to try and denograte both Ford and Holden and the fact that he places so much importance on them regardless if they are done under controlled conditions or have been manipulated etc
    that he is what car enthusiasts / street machiners refer to as an armchair driver.

    Instead of driving a particular car and experiencing it for himself he would rather take the word of a Uni Graduate from JD or Whoever;

    Mind you he is obviously so biased towards Toyota and believes that they are infallable let alone untouchable or unbeatable that he would rather spend 50 years in Guantanamo Bay than drive anything which didn’t have the 3 ovals on it.. I expect he would know what each one symboloses??

  • Wheelnut

    Mikka: I take it that its a Japanese beer you’re drinking -of course?

  • Wheelnut

    Again Mikka ignoring facts and history to suit your arguement.

    You say that Ford GM and Chrysler have never struggled as much in their entire existence than they are now.. You obviously don’t remember the “Depression” or the “War”?

    could tha be because during these times your beloved Toyota wasn’t even in Australia?

    During the depression the Big 3 were in a similar situation – if not worse; they laid off workers closed plants; and streamlined their range.. to more compact vehicles

    As a result they survived the depression and So even though GM Ford and Chrysler are in a bit of trouble at the momnent I beleive they will be able to survive again.

    Ford and Holden helped Aussies get through the hard times which is why there are a number of Aussies [unlike yourself] who want to try and help them through their hard times which is why we patriotic loyalists support them..

    Which is why I for one am against Tarrif reductions – Noone else has so why should we?

  • Wheelnut

    Having said that; the Australian Industry is one ALL Australians should fight to save and protect.

    From what I have gathered from this blog/website.. it appears the Ford and Holden fans have united; as they obviously realise how important it is to our economy etc

    Yet there appears to be a minority [of 3-4] who would rather see all that history and heritage etc go by the wayside.. because once it’s gone they hope we will all be driving Japanese cars

    Which they think will be cheaper as Tarrifs will no longer exist.. not realising that the car companies will keep the price as is to increase profits – if not increase them because once the likes of Ford and Holden are gone we will no longer have a choice

    Plus the fact that there will be hundreds of thousands of people out of work [once the car industry is gone];
    living off centrelink that they probably won’t be able to afford a car at all., not even a cheap and reliable Corolla

    Oh and those that are still lucky enough to have a job will be paying that much more in tax etc inorder to support those who don’t or can’t get a job that they will probably be better off not working.

    As a result Australia will be close to 100% stuffed.

  • Andrew M

    if the inport taxes reduced toyota would be and is going to be the first to walk from australia.
    gee that shows how much australia means to toyota.
    To Toyota Australia is just a big s-l-u-t. they are only here while they can make a dollar through the use of our once poor dollar.
    so just remember that the mighty toyota is prob going to feel these tax drops first and the hardest.

    also if large cars arent in demand from our manufacturers here anymore, them how come the largest selling car here is just that…..a large commodore?.

    as ive siad before on a percentile scale of what models we have here and what is australian made the aussies stack up quite well. the growth in the industry has just been spread over more models because we are simply spoilt for choice.

    and to respond back to Andrew from earlier……..
    mate its ok i was only having a go at you. if australian vehicles dont have a vehicle to suit you then yes its fair enough. thats the best response ive heard to that yet.

    on the other hand ford Aus is the only manufacturer to make a vehicle to suit me, so there you have it.

    with your second comment on LPG and what Watto followed up with i couldnt agree more in relation to LPG.

    i think ford needs a massive rocket up their a-r-s-e in relation to how little promo work they have done to promote their LPG range.
    If they dont pick up their act in promoting LPG with the flash new system they will be using when orion comes out then some serious questions need to be asked of those employing their marketing personnel.

    LPG is the ONLY “now” solution the fuel costs. how long how ford been the only ones offering it? and they still havent caught on to the power of advertising.

    how many people have heard of the around Australia trip ford did in a falcon to prove how effective the fuel is? they spent they money doing it yet didnt milk it for further advertising.

    LPG LPG LPG oi oi oi.

    sorry but it shytes on any other alternative.

  • Carl

    LPG is certainly under used and the only reason i can think of is snobery because it’s used by taxis it has in some peoples eyes a working class taint to it, But my 12 month old LPG falcon costs me about 2 dollars less every 100 k’s than wy wifes poxy little yaris so where is the economy in small petrol cars. It seems people are having to put up with smaller uncomfortable cars because they haven’t done their homework, are scared of gas or are plainly snobs but i’d also like to say to all car companies that we want more LPG and diesel options not just one model here and there!!!!!

  • Owen

    After 94 replies (and a lot of reading) I’d like my tuppence worth. ‘Top Gear’, heavies at GM and Ford overseas, all respect and admire our large cars. They’re bruitish, raer drive, good value and perform well. All this from a small population and market. I think one local manufacturer (from design to production) can survive, but not two or three. SAAB and Volvo struggling with big names behind them. BMW, Ford, Holden, Honda et al produced in cheaper labour markets like South Africa and Thailand. Keating (not Howard) began the ‘level playing field’ as to tariffs, and Senator Button finished it off. We can be as emotive about automotive as we like, that’s everyone’s right, but in the end it’s profits that keep manufacturers here. I think the import/export model has lots of merit, I don’t think we have as much time as is needed left to get it to work. In the end I reckon we’ll have ONE large RWD vehicle to call our own, just what badge is on the bonnet remains to be seen (although as a Mazda owner I’d wager it’ll be ‘Holden’).
    PS Nice debate here, 90+ responses is a healthy sign of the readership’s depth.

  • golfschwein

    Andrew M, LPG has a major acceptance problem, same as diesel. Granted, I know one bloke in real life who swears by the stuff cos it makes his 96 Fairlane cheap to run and he isn’t fazed by the non-OEM silver pipes and assorted other gargoyles stuffed under the bonnet, nor by the big yukky silver thing in the boot. And you gotta go to the big whooshy thing at the servo armed with military gloves to prevent your hands freezing over when you refill. There’s an impurity to the concept, in the minds of many, including myself. All in the mind?

    Then there’s diesel; greasy pumps and forecourts are a reality, it’s smelly but in a nice way, but you don’t need to go as often as for a petrol-fuelled car. Conceptually, it’s cleaner, meaning diesel fuel for a diesel car. It’s my preferred poison.

  • Andrew M

    Golf,
    hands freeze when you refill?
    ive never had that problem.
    LPG is actually safer to re-fill as there is a sealed conection meaning you arent breathing the fumes whilst you Re-fuel like in unleaded and diesel options. all you get is a small discharge when you release the trigger when its full.

    also it it were a dedicated LPG vehicle it doesnt mean a compromise on boot space. anyway i wouldnt mind betting that a fairlane with a bulky cylinder in the boot would still posses more boot space than a Yaris.
    under the bonnet of the falcon i doubt many people would be able to point out the associated LPG components. maybe for an aftermarket job they could, but they do looked just “tacked on” most of the time

    carl,
    i have had an LPG falcon for….wow its 4 1/2 years now, and i can agree with you that my falcon also runs cheaper than my other halfs rice burner aswell.
    performance isnt that noticable especially when my mate tried to race me one time in his ’99 commy and i ran around him. (should have heard the excuses)
    then getting on to the highway i pulled away from him again ha ha ha ha.

    also the vapour injected system thats coming for the falcon is sure to be a bigger winner (thats if they pull their finger out and promote it)
    in a review i read they had a territory fitted with a decent LPG system and over the same test route it was cheaper to fuel than a prius and it had no power loss

  • Andrew M

    Golf,
    diesel may pollute less co2 than petrol (the ozone unfriendly stuff but the hole is shrinking anyway) but it doesnt offer any real freedom from the diesel/unleaded related particulates. diesel is actually worse in this department.
    the particulates are related to mant health problems and has been related to being a cancer stimulate.

    LPG on the other hand reduces co2 by around 20% and a massive 90% less particulates that cause our health problems.
    are people for getting about our health in favour of the ozone hole which is actually shrinking? also it is still up in the air whether there is such a thing as global warming.

    also the cost of diesel is becoming harder to justify. the premium asked for a diesel vehicle and the extra pump price which is at least 10c now and up to 15c doesnt really reflect that much in savings.

  • Andrew M

    ive got a solution to the acceptance factor…….

    ford pull your finger out and make a LPG XR Turbo. once you show hot heads that you can get more power out of LPG im sure they will opt for it.

    ive also seen a system fitted to an SS commodore where they recorded a few kw’s increase.

    im sure that would go down well with the Kw conscious world we live in now

  • golfschwein

    Well, there ya go. There’s plenty of ignorance like mine to be shared. Of course, I knew of the tidier Ford fitment all along, but have read enough debate on previous posts here to be wary even of that. I’m not actually going to debate against LPG, as you can probably tell I really know jack s – - t about it.

    I was just describing the popular perception.

    TAXI!

  • Andrew M

    and right you prob are with the lack of people taking it up due to perception.

    i too firstly took a backward step when the salesman chanted LPG at me but since i have had it i would die if i had to go back.
    also being someone who runs LPG, rarely does an LPG article slip past me, there fore i like to think i know the product i am using, therefore i sit around with my hands in the air saying Hello when people are saying “we need an alternative”

  • http://ACA Mikka

    Ttssssshhh … that was my VB i just opened.

    Plonk … that was by feet landing on the desk.

    He, he, ha – ha, ha, ha … that is me laughing at the
    circus.

    Ooh yeah – Andrew … i am as Ozzie as an Ozzie can ever be.

    Born and breed in Australia and so were my parants, thier parents and so on. I live in country/coastal Queensland, walk around bare foot with a VB stubby in my hand, love AFL, meat pies and above all most – have honourably served my nation in the armed forces (Navy) and attend Anzac day ceremonies every year without failue.

    Infact, i have even had the honour of standing guard at the Sydney City Centre Cenotaph … have you served this nation … i reckon not so pull your head in and watch who you call non-Australian.

    And guess what, i drive a Toyota and for as long as my arse faces the ground – i will never buy a Holden. To me, Holden is not even Australian – it’s American … PERIOD !!

    That said, Toyota is every single bit apart of our motoring industry as Ford and Holden. I agree that they are not involved in local motorsport but that doesn’t exactly make our economy turn either though does it.

    Real Australia to me is the country were Toyota’s popularity thrives and above all most serves our Farmers, Miners, Industries and Trades personnel above that then any other automotive company in Australia.

    While Holden and Ford run around possing on a track, Toyota actually does something useful for or economy and gets stuck in some REAL OZZIE HARD YAKKA – something the American duo just haven’t been able to bring themselves to do yet.

    You see … i am an Australian who supports not only a local manufactuer but a company who actually does some real work in Australia.

  • http://ACA Mikka

    People can be assured that Toyota Australia will not be going anywere. The fact is, the BIG T has an uncanny way of reducing costs and ensuring lean manufacturing processes.

    If anything – Ford and Mitsubishi wil be the first two to drop with Ford having even started droping it’s Australian content with the recent dismise of the Fairlane and soon the L6 ifavour of an imported duty one instead.

  • Wheelnut

    I think youll find the companies who provide the most help to Farmers and Miners are:

    Farmers: John Deere; Komatsu; Case; Caterpillar. with Tractors; Combined Harvesters etc

    Miners: Komatsu; Caterpillar; Hyundai; Daewoo; . With Excavation Equipment; Tarax Trucks etc.

  • golfschwein

    How fascinating to see someone calling rank on a gently patriotic debate by citing his Navy credentials and that he would rather have a Toyota than a Holden, a car that he doesn’t even see as Australian, but American.

    Am I the only one who sees the irony unfolding here? I haven’t served my country, Mikka, but I do recall that the Zero was one of Mitsubishi’s more popular models in the 1940s. From the same land as Toyota, since you’re heading down that path.

  • Wheelnut

    Please Explain;

    You say that Holden is not Australian; that it’s American.
    Even though Holden originally started in Australia back in the Early 1900s
    Whereas Toyota arrived here in 1958 as a Subsidiary of a Japanese Company.. and some how you believe Toyota to be more Australian than Holden.. and therefore; it seems deserves more respect.

    I admit that Holden is currently owned by an American company. Yet GM only obtained full ownership of Holden in the 1960-70s.

    It doesn’t matter if the car company is american or japanese what matters is that they both make cars here provide local jobs.. the loss of which if Toyota and the other Locals were to leave would have a severe impact on our economy – worse than most people think.

  • Bavarian Missile

    What an interesting afternoon I have missed…….

    Just been to see a Enchantment with Georgia………and yet another Fairytale was unfolding here too!!!!!!

    Who gets to wake up the Prince with a Kiss!!!!!

    So Australia rides on a Toyota’s back……….geez……!

    Good to see David N who is still in the Army……drives a Ford then…..how did we get to being a real Australian drives a Toyota ??? It was nice to see the V8 Supercar drivers drop in on the Troops whilst they were in the East…..I doubt that some Aurion rocking up over there with a Jap chick as a chaperon would have been the same as the Miss V8 Supercars dropping in on them….maybe there just not Australian though!

  • Andrew M

    Mikka spectators of the “circus” arent able to participate so please be quite and respect the performance

    dont forget the falcon ute serves more than its fair share of tradies too.

    also the hilux may sell well but how is it that it was out classed by the BT50 during a 4×4′s test over 2500k’s of rugged australian country?
    yep i cant understand why they sell plenty of them (hilux’s) either. perhaps its the massive fleet discounts?

  • Duck

    Wheelnut,
    I agree with you but i thought holden was only owned from the year 1997……thats what i thought, that the first car GM made was the commy VT.

  • Andrew M

    sorry Duck they owned it a long time before that.
    GM have had it that long that most people will only know it as having always been owned by GM.

    all commys were GM

  • Bavarian Missile

    Andrew…….”you have mail”

  • Duck

    Oh…………………………OK…………………sorry!

  • Oz.

    Duck Holden has been owned by GM since the late 1940s. or another words, since they have made cars called Holdens.

  • Holden SSV owner

    Face it – the fleet market it split. “We” now have a massive choice and with novated leases it’s endless.

    .. and not everyone wants to drive a boof head conformadore.

    … but I do.

  • http://ACA Mikka

    I said automotive company not agricultral and i only passed comment that Toyota has earn’t it’s rightful respect within our automotive industry not that it is more Australian.

    So the BT50 pipped the Hilux over 2500km’s … what about the rest of the 300 000 plus km’s of ardious duties that are expected to be satified shift-in, shift-out, day-in, day-out … did they conduct that test aswell ??

    A Hilux being a dependable, durable vehicle with a rugged nature would be why they are popular would it ??

  • Wheelnut

    I know Mikka its just that the way you were going on it sounded as if Toyotas were being used to mine the coal; harvest the wheat; construct the roads/buildings etc..

    Where in actual fact they like Holdens and Fords are used simply as support vehicles to help transport workers and other various items from place to place. Not the big stuff mind you for that there’s: Freightliner; Western Star and [the Aussie] Kenworth.

    By the way Not ALL of the bush is in love with Cruisers because on a recent trip through [country] NSW-VIC-SA
    I counted more Holdens and Fords.. I guess it depends on where you go

  • Andrew M

    Mikka,
    yes the hilux may have proven itself over time but it doesnt mean it is the best or that it cant be beaten.

    people in the bush are pretty stubborn and will only stick to what they know and it is for that reason that toyota has simply become a default choice simply because people know of it and it does the job.

    also anyone who is looking for a new 4X4 looks to a landcruiser because they once again percieve it as the best 4X4.
    for my money the Patrol is a better off roader and it has a much much bigger tow rating because it has a much tougher chassis.

    toyota has dominated the off road segment purely because they have been the only one there that gave a stuff about entering it. there are plenty of manufacturers that offer better vehicles than the prado and Hilux.

    and to be fair i suppose same can be said about why ford and holden have always owned the large car segment too. all the Aurion will do is force them to have a look at themselves to make sure they arent walked over.

  • Andrew M

    yes the hilux maybe a rugged dependable vehicle but so are many it competes against. dont forget much of its competition comes from Japan aswell.

    and also some even outscored toyota in this reliability survey thing you hold close to your heart

  • Watto_Cobra

    Speaking of stubborn, or unwilling to change attitudes, anyone remember the Patrol ads from a few years ago when they overhauled their 10 year old Patrol?

    Showed an old cocky with his Cruiser checking out his younger neighbors new Patrol. He was grudgingly appreciating the new Patrol but wouldn’t budge from the Cruiser.

    So the other bloke had to chuck a chain around his feet and hook it to the back of the Patrol and drag him along. It was like trying to pull out a big old stump.

    Pretty funny and does sum up the unwillingness of some farmers to budge from a proven vehicle to one that may actually be better.

  • Watto_Cobra

    Speaking of stubborn, or unwilling to change attitudes, anyone remember the Patrol ads from a few years ago when they overhauled their 10 year old Patrol?

    Showed an old farmer with his Cruiser checking out his younger neighbors new Patrol. He was grudgingly appreciating the new Patrol but wouldn’t budge from the Cruiser.

    So the other bloke had to chuck a chain around his feet and hook it to the back of the Patrol and drag him along. It was like trying to pull out a big old stump.

    Pretty funny and does sum up the unwillingness of some farmers to budge from a proven vehicle to one that may actually be better.

  • Bavarian Missile

    Hilux is now made in Thailand…..like many others.

  • Andrew M

    yes thanks for putting it politically correct BM.

    what i mean i suppose is they are all pretty much japanese companies and made in the same place. hence same background

  • http://ACA Mikka

    Andrew – i will say that i actually disagree with you. And … there is NO PERCEPTION ABOUT IT – the CRUISER ‘IS’ the best off-road animal to be had.

    Toyota has been confronted with many vehicles from the opposition for many years but have always proven to be the most rugged, reliable, dependable and durable off-road vehicle but with the upmost respect to Nissan and indeed the Patrol.

    The Hilux has been around for years and has undoudtedly offered the consumer the most consistant performance while the Prado in it’s class is actually the best choice for off-raod ability – on road manners a liitle different admittedly.

    The Landcruiser however – well, as far as i am concerned… it speaks for itself. To be absolutely truthful … nothing really does come as basic yet solid as a 70 series cruiser.

    Have you actually checked out the latest example – the interior is virtually no-different by any means then those of twenty years ago but that said – they are engineered for a specific purpose. Actually, truth be told – Toyota actually states themselves that the 70 series is designed to be hosed out then driven off again.

    Now … with referance to the Patrol, yep – a bloody damn good off-road muncher but the fact is … they have lost huge ground to Toyota is recent years.

    The diesel Patrol can now only be had with a 3.0 turbo diesel and how on earth is that suppose to be able to compete with Toyota’s all new 4.5 turbo charged V8 diesels.

    That said, Toyota is also leading the off-road technical race aswell.

    People … i can understand critising Toyota cars but lets be brutually honest here – the off-road/commercial market is Toyota unchallenged domain for the very reasons it has consistantly and constantly proven why.

  • Watto_Cobra

    My brother specifically got rubber floor mats for the Hilux so it could be hosed out. 4WDs with plush carpet make no sense to me, assuming you use it for the intended purpose, instead of being an urban warrior/soccer mum, lol.

  • http://ACA Mikka

    Bavarian – good point but next time you see a new Hilux, take the time and inspect how solidly the intetror has been put together. That said, Toyota’s new D4D range of diesels have proven to be extremely good units.

    Andrew – because vehicles are manufactuered in the same country really does count for little because each manufactuer has it’s own cultural behaviuor.

    Some great examples – Toyota, Holden and Ford all manufactuer cars right here in Australia yet statistically, Toyota vehicles have been of higher quality, reliability and dependability.

    Hyundai and Daewoo are Korean manufactuered but Hyundai these days actually engineer a good car while even many companies biuld cars in Germany yet some have a greater reputation then others.

    Country of orign is one thing but the cultural behaviour of a particular company is an entire different league and as proven – often the determining differance between a good vehicle and a not so good one.

    No different to any bakery really – each may bake in the same town yet on of the two (or more)would have a better reputation for baking better pies.

    Once again – learn to broaden your way of thinking.

  • Wheelnut

    So what you’re saying the Robots in the Toyota Plant have a diiferent Culture to the Robots in the Holden Plant.

    Does that mean that when the Toyota Robots have a break they do Origami or Sudoku

    Yet when the Holden Robots have a break they have a smoke meat pie or a VB and scratch their back sides.

    And because the Toyota robots are more disciplined they produce more better quality cars.

  • http://ACA Mikka

    Wheelnut – very funny … and humerous – ha ha !!

    No – it is not about robots, it is about Reaserch and Development, fault identification, fault rectification, availability of speciised resources, training/education and off course the culture/discipline of the employees and as we all should know – that really can make or break a company.

    Now … i am not saying that the discipline of a typical employee at Holden is any worse then say at Toyota but they can only perform thier duties in relative correspondance to accessible resources, training and of course – coaching.

    Good example – Holden opted to let the Rear Main Seal on the buick to persist for 15 years while we all know Toyota would never allow that to happen…. it’s a cultural thing preached by more so by the company then any other.

    No doubt all of us have left a position sometime in persuit of another because we haven’t agreed with how the business conducts it’s practices.

  • Wheelnut

    I never knew Toyota used Buick Engines??

    By the way .. Another way Toyota could enhance their image is by whacking a Supercharger on to their 1.8L 4cyl Corlla engine like Lotus did with the Exige S.. But not the one they boletd onto the TRD.

  • Andrew M

    Mikka,
    yes nissan dropped their 4.2L and 4.5L from their range and that has to be one thing that may not have gone down well with consumers. (i think perhaps for euro emissions targets??)

    i doubt we will see eye to eye on the cruiser being a better off roader. the early use of coil overs in the patrol seems to be something that the cruiser has fallen behind in. its these coils as opposed to leafs that has seen the patrol have the greater suspension travel which is important for off roading.

    i know a little more about hilux’s than i do cruisers so i can say they are by no means the commander or best in their class.
    ive looked over their panel flushness etc and found it to be no better than anyone elses. also they ask quite i high premium for the lux over its competitors and the only reason i can see is because they can.
    i have a few of mates who have current lux’s and a couple of them wish they had have got the BT50 as they felt they got ripped off.
    they felt they just got swept into a lux because thats what we are suppose to drive isnt it?
    hilux’s = good vehicles but not the best and therefore in my mind overrated

  • Watto_Cobra

    Mikka, I know this is nit-picking but did Toyota know about the rear main seal on the Buick V6 when they were selling Commodores as Lexcens?

    I’m guessing they didn’t until cars started coming back.

  • http://www.importjap.com ImportJap

    I think Holden and Ford have made a concerted effort to improve build quality and value, but it may be too little too late with the current global economic situation. They may be doomed indeed.

  • Bavarian Missile

    Well well well…….haven’t we all be behaving this arvo!

    Even a little humor,I especially like the Toyoya and Holden Robots,very clever Wheelnut!

    Sorry Wheelnut……..HW took longer than I thought got carried away ! White carpet and a puppy don’t go too well!

    Ill catch you tomorrow after work? I’m knacked now!

  • greg

    That is one doomed bold statement, Ford is a power house and they will not lay down without a fight gauranteed, if everyone had doom and gloom thought’s this country will suffer from arrogance..

  • http://ACA Mikka

    Andrew – i don’t think we will see eye to eye regarding the Hilux. Somehow, panel flushness plays no part in the rugged, durable, dependable and capable nature of the Hilux.

    I too now ‘some’ people with the Hilux with some having them as work utilities and others as personal vehicles and ‘most’ of them have been happy with their purchase but once again – each for thier own.

    I will agree with you on the fact that some Hilux variants have a price to them but i guess that only comes inline with that demand/supply increment.

    Any manufactuer would be simply stupid if they charged less then what they could get for thier product. On a positive note – it proves that Toyota has the ability to play games with thier asking price if demand slips any.

    Also – it just goes to show how powerful the Hilux reputation is when competitors ask less of thier examples and sell considerably less then say Toyota does despite it’s larger going price.

    However – ask yourself this question – if your mate purchased an eqiuvalent model Hilux of the BT50 for the same price – would he still consider himself ripped off !!

    It is the enjoyment that one manufactuer has the fortune to enjoy that another doesn’t.

    Monthly sales of the Hilux is between 3500 – 4000 per month which is probably inline with Toyota Australia’s import quoter. If they can sell the bulk of thier monthly quoter at a ‘certain’ asking price then why would they wonna sell it for less.

    Rememeber – Toyota is no different then any other company … they are in it to make money.

    Any manufactuer would love to have the capacity to do that !!

    Watto – yeah … that is nit picking.

  • Andrew M

    well i thought the panel flushness was related to the fit and finish argument that is so often used to argue a good point for toyota.

    if my mate bought the BT50 for the same price and there was no other cheaper alternative that offered a few gizmos more then i suppose he couldnt feel ripped off with a BT50.

    he didnt feel ripped off cause he thought he bought a lemon, just because he could have gotten far better value for his money.

    perhaps toyota need to demand a slightly higher price from its private buyers to make up for the discounts it gives its mass of buyers in the fleet sector?

    i believe toyota sells a lot of cars on familiarity. i mean they have stuck to their name plates stronger than anyone else.
    main competitors to the corolla, for eg the laser and pulsar had name plate changes meaning there would have been a big win for the rolla out of that.

  • http://ACA Mikka

    Andrew – i’ll be honesyt with you, i haven’t taken much notice of panel flushness but now that you have mentioned it – i will.

    Sticking with name plates can often be a very wise choice especially if they are sellers. Correct marketing is a powerful tool.

    Have a look at a typical Toyota add – they have mojo.
    Then have a look at a Ford add – usually very dull like Ritchie Benaud inpersonation, it’s just so oh-hum.

    So yes, seeling on familariy is a very good point but selling on merit is another.

    Eitherway – how ever Toyota charges it is obviuosly working very well for them because not only are they selling cars but making an absloute multi-bilion dollar fortune form it aswell ofwhich is the balance that every company in any market wishes for.

  • Andrew M

    mikka if you are going to go looking for panel flushness ill point you to the first thing i noticed on my mates $60K duel cab LUX.

    the gap between the front and rear doors.
    at the top is fine but when you follow it down to the crease in them it widens.

    also i can create a list as long as my arm on panel flushness/fit and finish and little problems with the last gen camry.

  • http://ACA Mikka

    Andrew – you don’t need to go there with the last gen Camry because i own a 2003 4cyl manual Sportivo.

    In all i am happy with the car but admittedly there are some issues i would have expected better from Toyota. The reason i say it is because i also ‘still’ own a ’94 2.2 Widebody that has actually been an absolute gem as a solidly put together hack and of course one of the hardest examples of all to topple as a trouble free transporter.

    Infact, i like my ‘ole girl’ (as i call it) because although it wouldn’t blow your hat in a snow storm (gutless), the bitch has never whinged a single day
    in 13 yrs of motoring. Unfortunately – it is also one of those models that suffered from the lifting dash along the windscreen.

    Anyway, sense i have had the Sportivo i have relised it isn’t as ROBUST as the ‘ole girl’ but on the other side of the coin – it is a much, much better drive. Also, it is very quiet and smooth on the highway … much quieter then my fathers 2002 Mazda6.

    Issues i have had are all minor like replacing the two front window weather seals, gearstick boot and drivers door handle grab (squeeked a little but admittedly – i am a hard bastard when it come to cars) but mechanically … it hasn’t missed a beat.

    Also – i find the paint marks all to easily.

    Oh yeah , the ‘ole girl has now done 239 000km’h and has just deveolped it very first ever oil leak. A minor seepage from the sump gasket.

  • Andrew M

    Mikka,
    I know exactlly what you drive cause i guy called Dingo told me about it once ha ha ha ha

    there is/was 2 of those last gen camrys in the family including a 2002 4cyl manual sportivo (apparently it was the first manual they were asked for so they scrambled and found the hilux box to throw in it).
    i know of all the little things you have mentioned (and the ones you dont want to)
    at least you have stopped drinking your VB and are being honest with us that toyota does have fair share of issues too.

    Question….
    why do you drink VB if you are a QLD’r? obviously havent been here too long? i didnt know they sold that stuff here ha ha ha ha

    oh and can i ask if your RHS (i think it is) tail light sticks out or is it not flush with the boot lid in the order of near 10mm?

  • http://ACA Mikka

    Andrew – i have spent many years in QLD – grew up here, left for many years when i joined the Navy then returned as a married man after i discharged to start a family around ‘my family’.

    And don’t start on the VB thing … the ole’ man is always having a go at me about that so not you too.

    That said – i have never said that Toyota does’nt have thier issues because EVERY CAR and EVERY MANUFACTUER have thier faults. However … some have more then others while others have more yet again. Apart from that, it also depends on how they choose to fix the identified problems … ‘if’ at all.

    Example – the early widebody suffered from the lifting dash but Toyota fixed that problem pronto while Holden ignored any worthwhile attempt at every resolving the Rear main issue with the buick engine.

    Even recently Toyota has demonstrated some resonsible behaviour like with stop sales associated with TRD Aurion and RAV4 V6 of which no-doubt has limited/stoppped the customers exposure to these identified irregularities.

    Like i said earler today – it is a cultural thing.

  • Andrew M

    ha ha ha
    its alright i copped it on a QANTAS flight from the attendant for asking for a XXXX.
    “nah we dont drink that rubbish down here” he replied

    but i wasnt quick enough to respond that QANTAS was born in QLD alongside XXXX and that they will take our airline though.

    you would certainly cop it in the outback pubs though i guess

  • Brrrm brrmmmm

    V6′s and V8′s for what? A thrilling 100kms on the freeway, what a joke. The Aussie headspace for cars is living in the past – the days of bent coppers, no seatbelts and speeding are long gone. Bring on the foreign cars, more efficient, cheaper, better build quality and design.