High-Performance Hybrids
September 28, 2007 by Alborz Fallah
Climate change has become such a big issue that for the first time ever, ordinary people are starting to realise the consequences of inaction. Words from world leaders are only words, but the action of a few car manufacturers has paved the way for a hybrid revolution in the car industry.
Toyota and Honda have been recognised as the founders of mass produced Hybrid cars, thanks to the Toyota Prius and Honda Civic Hybrid. Lexus, Toyota’s luxury arm, has also been the first manufacturer to bring the words Hybrid and Luxury together.
So far though, Hybrid cars have been viewed as slow, boring and rather dull to drive. So here is the good news, that’s all about to change.
While the rest of the world is starting to catch up, Lexus is gearing up for the LS 600h L, which will provide 12-cylinder like power from a V8 engine, owing to the electric drive.
Apart from the LS 600h L, Lexus and Toyota are both considering performance hybrids, as in an actual sports car with an electric/petrol engine. Rumours from a few months ago suggest the next generation Toyota Supra will most likely be a Hybrid, and both companies are considering rechargeable (plug-in) models.
Nonetheless, Toyota and Honda are no longer the Pioneers of Hybrid technology, General Motors is only weeks away from releasing the company’s first Hybrid car in the States, the new Chevy Tahoe.
Often considered as a manufacturer that believes in the “bigger is better” philosophy, GM is set for a show down with Toyota over the Hybrid race and Vice President Bob Lutz has started with some strong words.
“There’s so much negativism, especially from one competitor (Toyota),” Mr Lutz said. “The sooner we can disprove that, the sooner they’ve got some more egg on their face,”
Toyota will undoubtedly monitor the Tahoe and the coming-soon GM Volt closely, analysing the consumer response to the plug-in hybrid. The Tahoe SUV can apparently travel for more than 60kms on electric power alone, this will mean many buyers will only visit the petrol station once a month, if that.
So the question now remains, with the Hybrid wars in top gear, who will be the first to produce a well built authentic hybrid sports car? Will the next Supra shake up the industry once more, Toyota certainly hopes so.
Either way, the next 20 years should see a mass transition from petrol to hybrid or other fuel efficient and environmentally friendly systems for all types of cars.
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Personally Im quickly getting over hybrids. People here have highlighted that in terms of their impact on the environment, its not much less in real terms then a conventional car. This aside, the biggest issue I see is that its just to late for hybrids. Not from a climate perspective but from an oil one. The real issue I see is the fact that we have passed peak oil (or so Ive been lead to believe), production is only going down from here, so not only will prices go up but we need alternate means of transport, not something which still involves a petrol engine. Im a fan of the hydrogen cell vehicles and the like, which not long after GM releases its first attempt at a hybrid, will be coming out.. which dont require any fuel at all (unless you regard water as fuel). As far as I see it hybrids are purely a marketing tool.
i think hybrids will be around for a long time. as i beleive fully petrol cars will be around for more than 10 years. full electric or not you’re still gonna need electric which can be as expensive as petrol.
as for hydrogen i beleive its still a long way to go.
car companies and oil companies can predict when these technologies will be needed better than any of us can. so we’ll just have to wait and see.
the new supra is certainly the best looking near future sportscar that will debut. though i must say audi can use the R8 or their concept in the movie iRobot.
Toyota/Lexus have some interesting things to say about hybrid technology and hydrogen fuel cells etc. I have a friend who works in a lexus dealership and they went to an information night held by lexus to dispell or confirm all the romours and innuendo’s in the market place recently.
1st – No-one is saying Hybrid technology is the next thing in automotive power. It is and always has been a stop gap measure while fuel cell vehicles become commercialy viable.
2 – Lexus, in the new LS600 is using the latest technology but, like computers, is already showing its age because Toyota has designed a newer system again. Don’t forget Toyota sold other manufacturers their hybrid technology so to stay ahead they need new innovations.
3 – Diesel Hybrids are next, as seen in europe, but still only a stop gap.
4 – Fuel cells work. its just they are either risky to package due to accidents or the technology needs to become cheaper for manufacturers to sell them at the retail door not as a fleet special of manufacturer owned cars.
5 – Pure Electric cars are not viable. Don’t help the environment enough as the future costs of destroying these cars is too great.
By the way, if anyone is lucky enough to sit in a Lexus LS 600 like i have, make sure noone is in the front passenger seat and sit behind it. Great technology, awesome sound system, and from the back seat you can move the front seat out of the way,(headrest even folds away to not hinder the view), recline your seat with the ottoman out and enjoy the awesome surround sound and dvd screen.
Added bonus of a Large car out gunning most things on the road in serene luxury but using the exuivalent to a Ford Focus in Fuel consumption.
one word.
AWESOME
Sexthang Honda are releasing a hydrogen cell vehicle within a year or so in the states, its not that far away. Given this kind of technology already exists, I believe BMW also have similar vehicles, I dont see a reason for hybrids, the time to reduce oil consumption was 10 years ago, now the worlds levels are only going down, we need to stop using it completely… well at least in non-commercial applications.
Firstly I don’t want to wait for the OIL/CAR industry to tell me when it is ok to buy a alternative fuelled vehicle.They are at the heart of the problem along with our lifestyle choices.
The plug in concept from Volvo is the closest in terms of a viable alternative.Cheap off peak electricity is under utilised & our base load power generation could be used to recharge overnight at an economical rate.
Why aren’t we using it?
Hydrogen is far too energy intensive to produce,no one mentions the infrastructure costs involved in distributing & safely handling compressed hydrogen to fuel vehicles.
Would like to know what are the end of life issues attached to pure electric vehicles that are any worse than a hybrid or any other vehicle particularly when compared the likes of the Lexus LS600L.This car seems to fly in the face of what hybrid should be about.
What Volt weeks away?
Last time I checked on other sites, the Volt (if it ever) comes on the market some time around 2010.
Batteries used in pure electric cars tend to last a lot shorter time span and also need the use of high discharge capacitors. In hybrid’s the batteries last a lot longer due to never fully discharging and only going to 75% capacity to prolong life. after their usefullness in the car is gone they then get sent to do manufacturing storage of energy in large factories, and from there on once they die they can be 50% recycled. tis can take 30-40 years to become so.
in regards to pure electric plug ins, Storing energy not easily found on the open road means unless you only intend to drive around town, as only regenerative braking tends to occur enough here,it won’t help. Do you only travel 60kms from home to work, shopping or picking up kids and back home again between the hours of 6am an 10 pm. most wouldn’t, they would do more than this.
With fuel cell vehicles they are not available to the masses at the moment due to infrastucture and precautionary measures in respect to saftey. future hydrogen cars are currently nearing or have finalised development and refining a straight water to hydrogen to fuel system so all you have to do is put the garden hose into the tank and presto the car goes.
In regards to the coment of the LS600L flying in the face of what a hybrid is about. It is actually what it was designed to do.
Hybrid Theory
Produce similar performance to a larger capacity motor using less fuel than the actual sized motor seamlessly.
i.e. it does produce V10 power but uses less fuel than the LS460.
Pretty convincing i’d say.
Accept your point about Hybrid theory doing more or the same with less,but a 5.0ltr V8 is not exactly slumming it or cutting back your consumption & on the open road at speed I think that big V8 in a big heavy car will still be operating.
Whilst it may use less fuel than a LS460,but how much more than a Prius?The need to pick up the kids do the shopping go to work in something that produces V10 or V12 power?Most of us don’t aspire to this & if we do then it is not surprising issues are forcing change.
The Volvo recharge plug in concept still has a 1.6 ltr petrol back up but can do 100km without the petrol motor engaging.This range would accomodate most of us on a daily basis.You are right 60km is pretty minimal for those who cannot rely on other transport.This cars batteries are intended to last beyond the life of the vehicle.Can the same be said for Prius or Lexus?Advances in the technology cannot come soon enough & I look forward to more practical vehicles on the road such as station wagons, utes & vans for the rest of us.
The market segment is obviously the large Jaguar,BMW & Mercedes Benz market.
Cheers
If future hydrogen cars were able to simply just use water from the tap, i wonder what effect that would have in areas that are currently under water restrictions. From my knowledge, level 5 water restrictions in brisbane does not even allow the washing of cars using water in a bucket filled from the tap, unless its to wash something that needs to comply with statutory or regulatory obligations.
Carmakers need to make HYBRIDS/Alt-fuel vehicles as exciting as standard fuel cars first, and I think a lot of them know this. Can’t keep throwing the prius at people and expect it to sell.
For the short term I think diesel isn’t bad for economy.
Climate change/Global Warming is for Lemmings.
Those of you who are lemmings, swallow the rubbish, I don’t.
Toyota Paul is showing some sense – “I am quickly getting over hybrids” – a big statement from a “Toyota is God” person, rubbishing the Prius. I reckon the Prius is rubbish too, whatever energy it might save on running costs is more than wiped out on purchase price/manufacturing cost/running cost/recycling cost.
The Prius makes a Hummer cheap by comparison, that’s not my opinion, it’s verified by US research.
They will develop the technology for cars to run on water some time after they invent time travel to the past I would think.
Fuel cell cars run on hydrogen fuel cells, water is what is produced from the engine, rather than what powers them.
Mumbo jumbo climate change……..yer what ever…….
Until China and the USA start doing major changes in the own Countries I wont be driving some tree huggers car!
I read the other day that cows farting make more gas than the cars in the world,so what were all going to become vegitarians too now .
hybrids are a way for manufacturers to look good in the public eye and maybe rid a bit of guilt.
you are right missile, there are a lot worse things than cars for our environment.
has anyone considered how much emissions is created by the electricity that you plug into these cars? i wouldnt be surprised if the coal burnt to provide electricity actually makes the car effectively worse. ah but then its not technically the car producing the emissions…go figure…
they are advertising at the moment that if every one replaces ONE LAZY LIGHT BULB to a fluro then it would be equivalent to taking 49,000 cars off the road.
so do all the poeple who buy these cars have no flood lights at home? i doubt not
Rocket in regards to your comment “The Prius makes a Hummer cheap by comparison, that’s not my opinion, it’s verified by US research.”. There was an article about that research which was dicussed here, you will find that that study was really floored, the Prius is not worse then a Hummer, the researchers really did manipulate the figures. But I agree cars like the Prius are a gimmick, but I wouldnt condemn Toyota so much as Im sure the development of this kind of technology will be useful in the future. Its more than you can say for Ford and General Motors. The way I see it, in terms of the usefulness of Hyrbids CURRENTLY (so not considering future implications, which will be positive in terms of the technology leading better vehicles) in terms of the ‘oil crises’…. Toyota has missed the ship slightly….GM completely missed the ship and I dont know what Ford is doing, apart from taking govt money for development of a hybrid I6 (the engine which will cease to be used very soon!)
Hey Paul hubby has just read an article in our local paper about Toyota having a new suspension system that originated here in W.A by a School teacher.Couldn’t get any one to back him except the little town he lived in. So the town backed him and they sold the idea to the US for 32 million {wow}. Toyota has just adopted the package for their cars in the future.
This system was used in some rally cars before hand ,but banded because I imagine it worked too well.
You heard anything of it ?
first of all let me say that i am not endorsing everyone switching to hybrids asap. overpriced and apart from interior space a little impractical just yet. I sell Ford vehicles and get the, when is the electric vehicle coming, question everyday.
Andrew M you hit the nail on the head that cars are actualy producing very little so called greenhouse emissions compared to everything else. i.e. factories, electricity producing, mining etc. However the motor industry keeps getting made to be the bad guy because everyone sees cars exhausts everyday whereas no where near the same amount see the chimmeny stack of favtories and the like.
David, the reasons for Lexus Hybrids is the reality that almost all technology starts out life in expensive luxury cars due to the initial cost of said technology. and people who buy these cars want to see why they are paying extra for it, eventually this technology will be cheaper for everyone because of it.
Andrew, water is made up of 2 parts hydrogen and one part oxygen i.e. H2O. all that is needed is to seperate these parts with little or no loss of hydrogen and efficiency is created from water. this water can come from non drinkable desalination water or recycled water.
Paul,
what have ford done about the oil crisis?
well they are the only manufacturer that sells a vehicle that doesnt depend on the price of oil one bit. yep a solely dependant LPG vehicle.
dont forget that a hybrid isnt the only alternative to fuel prices.
also you musnt read the articles that say in terms of hybrid technology GM is actually right on top of the ball at the moment.
but any way hybrids are a joke when there are a few small diesel cars out there at the moment that can get better efficiency than a hybrid and yes one of them is a FORD. not to mention you actually will get some sort of power figures out of a diesel.
would you please just take your toyota jacket off for one second
also the government will not hand out money to ford unless they actually impliment what ever it is they are getting the money to develop
so where is your source that ford gets X dollars and then throws it in the bin??????
hey paul that was reckless saying that not me. and Ford is actually donating I6 motors to the University that has recieved government funding to develop hydrogen technolgy and alternate fuel technology, not hybrids. Obviously Ford will get first dibs on any results achieved from this program though.
Oh lol sorry glanced and saw the R. As for the I6, but any developments youd think are useless given they are going to start using V6s in the relatively near future.
Rocket3,
i reckon that they should be made to include emissions created by electricity that you plug into these cars aswell otherwise its false advertising as far as im concearned.
for eg (and i dont know the real figures its an eg)
say the fuel used to do 1km might only create say 75g/Co2 per/km but the the coal burnt to produce say 2000kw which is needed to acompany the motor to do that 1km might create 100g/Co2 per km.
so are they allowed to only display that the car only creates 75g Co2 when it really creates 175g C02??
Im not sure what your getting at Andrew.M, hybrids use batteries… as far as I know you dont plug them in and recharge? If you meant the actual making of the battery in the first place, then that could apply to every car. Bit confused about that post…
oh paul you always find a way to put a negative spin on what ever ford (or even GM) does
mate its the technology they are obviously interested in not the way the cylinders run
so are you saying that you can run hydrogen in an I6 but not a V6.
no different to if they developed a gas system on an I6 motor. it could easily bolt straight on to a V6 too
actually paul i am talking about the next step in hybrids which is where you actually do plug them in. i read something a while ago where it is the next version of the prius to be plug in aswell to further reduce fuel consumption.
i just scrolled up to check and yes this article does mention the plug in models
Rocket3 – Yes I realise water contains hydrogen, but the fuel cell reaction goes a little like this:
2H2 + O2 = 2H2O + energy.
Cars of the future will use separated hydrogen and oxygen to react and make the energy… water will come out the exhaust.
The problems with fuel cells is that to make them, you have to start with water and use energy (which is typically electricity) to separate it into its elements… then you put them in the cars and away you go. So to make these fuel cells costs a lot more than the good old petrol alternative.
Andrew M has a good point re the charging of battery cars with domestic power. I think fossil fuel power plants run somewhere between 40-60% efficient, compared to petrol engines at 40% so in reality they aren’t all that more efficient. HOwever I think the impact of battery powered cars aren’t as bad as power plants would make less pollution and greenhouse gases overall than dirty petrol engines.
If you want to make a difference and save the world, the prius or even the hummer :-) is not the way do do it. Ride a bike.
i guess a large number of people are thinking that they can get away with paying high petrol prices. i beleive the cost of hydrogen fuel (be it in what storage form) will be about the same cost as petrol/diesel when the time comes. given the fact that market forces will balance itself out and that energy is not created from thin air or water. and the fact that nobody is going to work so hard to develope the technology unless they are able to recuperate all the dev cost from sales.
Toyota paul,
Andrew M answered your question. Technology can be used on almost any engine once developed. The reason the Falcon engine was chosen is a simple case of the parts and technology of the current motor is here in Aus and not elsewhere. this means that if a certain compression ratio was needed to further development it is a short and relativly cheap turn around to have this done. The I6 engine is the only engine produced in Australia using almost 95% aussie made parts.
Fair enough on the I6 argument… Andrew.M as for the future of battery powered vehicles, plugging them in and the associated emmissions…. the answer is Nuclear power! But yes its a good point, partly why I have a preference for hydrogen cell vehicles over battery powered ones.
yeah hybrids are just a way to make people THINK they are saving the planet.
yep hydrogen seems to be the way.
but dont think we will be paying 60 cents a litre once we get it though. prices will stay the same and they will blame the drought for holiday price hikes ha ha ha no really they probably will.
my big question is if people are wanting to save on fuel costs why dont they concentrate on LPG?
it is here now and makes a large car run cheaper than a hatchback.
weatherchannel.com .au have a ‘rigged poll’ the question asks “will you buy a hybrid?” I vote no and then it shows masive numbers of votes that say yes, but what i’m asking why? The only time a hybrid is “saving the earth” is when you do less then 30km/h and unless you drive in grid locks theres no point buying that car
Hydrogen is not sustainable nor is nuclear energy,we would use up Uranium reserves in 25 years if every coal fired station was replaced with reactors.Nuclear is an inefficient user of the resource hence the waste problem.
High performance hybrids like this are just fiddling about at the edges.
It shouts oppulent,unsustainable lifestyle.If you want a car to consume as much as a Focus then buy a Focus & trim the rest of your lifestyle accordingly.I know this won’t happen human nature is greedy & there are too many of us.Who are we to tell the Chinese to cut back after what has been done in the West?
Providing technologies initially only to those who can afford it?I don’t think we have time to wait for the trickle down effect to occur.
We better hope that PROF.TIM FLANNERY has got it terribly wrong.Co2 gas levels have risen faster than expected.
Time to act was probably 20 years ago,we have wasted opportunities,we still travel needlessly despite computer technologies enabling office automation ie work from home.Humanity may have missed the boat & nature is going to make decisions for us.Chances are it won’t be nice.
How many more years of drought do you think Aussie farming can sustain? Worldwide grain shortage?Think about it.
Grain is used not just bread.Stockfeed as well.
The Wimmera might be better off sowing tree seeds than crops.Get on yer bike before Mother Nature says enough.What we have done in a mere 200 years on industrialisation.Does any one really think it can continue for a 1000?The beloved Ford I6 will be lucky to occupy a paragraph of engineering history.
David, nuclear energy is way way way more efficient than coal-sourced energy. Where did you hear that there is only enough Uranium for 25 years? Certainly in Australia it is a very promising energy source, as we have plenty of the stuff! Unfortunately, due to its bad image (despite few issues overseas), the Australian public don’t like the idea of utilising nuclear power. Howard has looked into it, hopefully something happens in the next few years!
Jbot,Heard this on SBS.I did more research taking in views of differing political slants
Evatt Foundation site quoting Michael Diesendorf Snr lecturer environmental Studies UNSW:
..If nuclear energy were to be expanded to contribute (say) half of the world’s electricity, high-grade reserves would last less than a decade. No doubt more reserves of high-grade uranium ore will be discovered, perhaps even doubling current reserves, but even this would be insufficient for a sustainable substitute for coal…
Blair government environment Minister Michael Meacher stated that peak production from economically recoverable reserves occurred 25years ago.
Mining companies state demand will outstrip supply as more new Chinese reactors are commissioned.Billion + want to live like NEW YORKERS & of course us.
All points to a finite resource.
Then there is the possible human cost.I would not want the job at the reactor face where despite all the protective shields you get a years dose of radiation in 8-10 hours & you don’t go back again.
Globally it is not the complete answer.
We need to use less & stop thinking in conventional economic terms when looking at alteratives.The age of the quick return might be over.it is like fighting a war.
I question the efficiency as a USD$57 billion processing facility for waste is being built in the USA but you could argue this is nothing compared to the cost of Global Warming,again it depends on how you look at the economics of the alternatives.
Sorry,I don’t have the same trust in Mr Howard who as a politician makes a very good nuclear scientist.Not trying to ram it home but I just dont think it is that simple. Like the new EVO.
Less usage of power comes from getting education across but the biggest contributing factor is humans. As the population gets bigger it gets worse and demand for resources increases with devastation on a global scale that cannot be checked (look at Brazil rainforest!). THE ONLY WAY TO GET REAL ON THE ISSUE…. POPULATION CONTROL AND THIS HAS TO OCCUR! SOME COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD WILL NOT LIKE IT. I FOR ONE AM ANNOYED THAT BOTH FORMS OF GOVERNMENT HAND OUT SOME $3-4000 TO PEOPLE WHO HAVE KIDS! IT IS ONLY LAST TWO HUNDRED YEARS THAT IT HAS BEEN BAD AND THE POPULATION HAS INCREASED DRAMATICALLY. THERE IS NO OTHER ANSWER AND IAM NOT SAYING EVERYONE CANNOT HAVE KIDS… look around world at some nations; I have seen pics of people who cannot have work and they yet have many many kids which is WRONG!
Anyhow, leading back to new technology, they will produce smaller batteries for electric cars and they have got technology for hydrogen and water, etc = the politicians virtually will just suck up to business and they outstrip resources with no clear long term plan. They will do something, when business fast track it and til then climate change will get worse! It has to change!
No use living in fools paradise thinking hybrids are great as they have batteries that must be disposed of which just add to the problem. HMMMMM. Only 1 answer and so many dimwits coming up with chardonnay followed by latte comments that is gibberish. 1/ POPULATION CONTROL 2/ OTHER CONTROL IS SECOND BUT A DISTANT LAST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
There is no F***ing point in “highbreds” because unless you are doing less than 30km/h your not saving any thing.
If they want to stop Globle warming bullsh*t, they need to stop cutting down trees, thats a better thing to do.
If you want to fix global warming then population control worldwide is ONLY ANSWER. Any discussion other then that is simply a toffee nosed latte trivial comment that has no significant backbone and everyone talks like that as they do not face up to the one issue! Why do you think they cut down trees = as tooooooooo many people on this Earth for the amount of free land! Having all you lot saying we need a HERO CAR WITH 2500HP AND 3400Nm MUST CHANGE AS YOU PEOPLE DO NOT REALISE IT IS NOT THE AUTOBAHN ANYWHERE AND EVEN IF YOU DO TRAVEL SUPER FAST IT IS DANGEROUS!