So in other words, people who will probably buy a Camry anyway will look at buying a Camry Hybrid – fleet and government especially. Sane people will buy a diesel
Until the diesel model ingests a gutful of water laden fuel, bodgey fuel or is accidentally filled with petrol and costs $5,000+ to repair.
Also some diesel engine oils need changing at 3 to 6months or 5,000 to 7,500km and their fuel and oil filter costs are expensive.
Problem is with Recommended Retail Procing it means nothing, Ford have been advertising the XR6 for 35,990 driveaway here in victoria for the last 10 months.
That is the direct comparison to the Hybrid pricewise in my books
Sure can buy Falcon & Comm cheaper. That’s why both companies are losing money, they are being forced to price their product either around of just above the mid sized market(upper).
BTW, no problem with diesel, but not everyone wants one, costs more at the pump, and you can pay a premium at purchase. Skoda makes a nice car, just ask the other 4000 or 5000 owners in the entire country(are there that many?). No resale.
Off course, the boot and Towing scream all the big car owners, go buy a NEW one I say, or your opinion isn’t worth squat. And that’s right, most of you wont.
The Camry is a fleet car pretty much, so Toyo lovers please shhh when this sells in big numbers, and it will. As for the Comm and Falcon supporters, who are still in denial that the only reason these cars are still being made is because of taxpayer funding, well you shhh as well. No taxpayer funding, and these 3 manufacturers are gone.
Smoke and Mirrors a bit with Hybrids, same with Holden’s direct injection(lmao) though. Of course we could all wait for the Volt, priced about 60k+ in OZ most likely, and don’t use the heater or air conditioning, and its only a 4 seater, and that thing they a call a range extender, its actually a 1.4 liter motor, but range extender sounds catchy does it not. Wonder how big the boot will be on the Volt, will it be able to tow…
Juice, I suggest you further investigate the difference in cost of building a small, medium or large car vs the return. You may be slightly surprised how rewarding it is to actually build larger cars.
so the last time Holden made a profit was when exactly?
GM has just gone through C11.
Chrysler taken over by Fiat.
Sure big cars reward you profit wise, but only if you price them accordingly, as indicated, the Falcons and commies are priced to sell as if they were mid sized cars. The numbers don’t Lie AB.
XR6 is at $35,990 drive away.
G6 Limited is at $36,990 drive away.
SV6 is at $35,990 drive away.
Let me see, should I buy a car I have to nurse around town holding up traffic to get 6.2l/100km with less room, inferior handling and less poke, or do I pay less and buy a car (0ne of the 3 above) that cost less, safer, is a more enjoyable car to drive and own, but uses more fuel? To each there own I guess but I think I would take one of the above 3.
Dammit Paul your right! , Holden and Ford must really be shaking in there boots right now…..
Dummies that ridicule hybrid technology fail to understand that they are supporting the foreign owned and largest exporters of crude oil. Saudi Arabia is the largest exporter of petroleum in the world and they have thousands of dedicated and loyal supporters. Australia imports about 70% of its crude and this number is gradually increasing, isn’t it nice to know someone overseas has us over a barrell.
*** It is actually very patriotic to be a supporter of hybrid or fuel efficient vehicles. Particularly an Aussie built Hybrid.
The big loser is the high CO2 output. What’s the use against a diesel then or say the VW 118TSI models, 159g/6-7l/100km. And no battery to manufacture or to dispose off and cheaper, no taxpayers money,and,and,and, I don’t get it. Journalists should humiliate these vehicles.
“hard to imagine any reason you would need or want to buy a Falcon XT or Commodore Omega”
Bigger boot would make a good argument for a Falcon or Commodore. The Camry hybrid is hardly a practical family car with a 389 litre boot……..
I cannot stand when people go on and on about the boot capacity, almost as bad as males going on and on about the size of there “member”
Open 1000x boots at random, how many would be chockers and filled to max. capacity.
That’s right NONE, its NOT a issue, not now, not ever.
The Camry has a split folding rear seat too, fit mowerrs and all sorts of large junk in there.
You obviously do not have young kids!
Thats a tired argument…
You can fit young kids in most cars with 4 doors….
If you really need a falcadore to fit them in, i suggest maybe should stop feeding your family at maccas or KFC!!
If the kids are young adults. i doubt they will be going to family outings that often, and will probably own a car of their own!!
The Hybrid Camry FAQ on the Australian Toyota website recommended that owners didn’t tow in it because it would ruin fuel economy. So that’s one benefit you’d get from an alternative car.
It’s a shame Toyota doesn’t make a Camry wagon anymore. That or an Aurion wagon would be decent alternative (especially for fleets) to a Sportwagon.
Agreed, an Aurion wagon would have done pretty well. Toyota’s response is buy a Kluger. My response is I don’t want to drive something that has wallowy handling and is overweight.
6.2L/100km for that size vehicle is not so bad really, once you learn how to drive it to suit, will most likely get that figure down a bit.
Its a pity the Camry is so HUGE in size [was once a compact sized car, now GROWN], i would consider this drivetrain in a Corolla sized vehicle if only say $2500 more than a std., thats going to be in around 5 years time for me, as long as it has all the trinkets in it, LOVE gadgets to play with while stuck in traffic!
Mind you Mitsubishi are adding ClearTec to ALL its range, so more MPG without any hybrid and also no stinky smokey DIEsel
What i hate is those goose-neck hinges on the boot lid….YUK!
Hmmm, do I see a lot of similarity in the looks of this and the new Hyundai i45 – particularly from the rear? Or is ith the other way around? Sorry, it’s just that I get so confused with how many car designs the Korean manufacturers are ripping-off these days.
Sorry, I know that was provocative, but I couldn’t help it!
I would never buy one of these, but hey, some people will and it can’t hurt to have it as an option for some.
whatever i feel about this car, i don’t think Rudd should have given $35 million to Toyota to build a car they were already going to build anyway…
let’s give $35 mil. to Bill Gates to make Windows 8!
Yeah $35 million was probably not the reason. What is $35 million to Toyota anyway?
I think its the Federal support that bought them. The expectation of government talk-up and fleet sales.
There is little reason why Toyota wouldn’t import from Thailand though.
Honda, Nissan, and to some extent Mazda all get that competitive edge.
Later this year the Federal government will sing along Holden too for the $149 million.
“Fuel consumption difficult to obtain”, c’mon CA, what car is this not true for? You could make an Olympic event called “Who can reach their ADR”.
“no dedicated EV mode.” hmmm, is that because its a bigger car with a p*** poor 2.5kwh battery pack or is this because they want some features to be exclusive to the overpriced Prius?
On the plus side, at lease they left the drivers dials where the driver can easily see them.
What car is not difficult to achieve ADR in? Falcon! Look at all the past reviews if you don’t want to believe that.
This car will sell well, ticks all the right boxes for non enthusiast car buyers. Some will even upgrade their smaller cars to have the luxury of a larger roomier car that promises better fuel consumption! Toyota discounting will have the base model walking out the door @ 35-36K drive away, just to try to steal some share of the current deals with the Falcadores!
“105kW @ 0rpm (electric)”
LOL! So the torque is infinite at 0RPM. Toyota has done it again
Electric motors generate flat torque from 0rpm tp max rpm. This is common knowledge, I guess your not common…
Read what lazybones said. I hate being common.
Common as in Camry?
Technically Kim is right, its 270Nm of torque from 0 Rpm. But KW is still Torque x RPM. Its a bit like an electric generator, it might have 500Nm of torque but until it starts turning it doesn’t generate any KWh of energy output.
Thank you for the clarification
Excellent review Paul.
Toyota have done a great job with this vehicle. We got to go for a good drive at a recent launch in Sydney. They’re a lot better to drive than the petrol Camry in many aspects.
I must point out one tiny error in your specs, the fuel tank for the Hybrid Camry is 65 litres, not 70 litres like the petrol Camry. You should also point out the 8 year/160K warranty for the HV battery as well.
” Priced below both entry level Falcon and Commodores, it’s hard to imagine any reason you would need or want to buy a Falcon XT or Commodore Omega.”
How about Falcon XR6 driveaway $36,990, or G6 SE driveaway $36,990 or Commodore International driveaway $36,990, all are priced below camry hybrid and include on roads which the camry does not! And Falcon 0-100 clsoer to 7sec to 100kmh…
Not to mention that both Commodore and Falcon are able to acheive 7l/100km on the highway, and sub tens around town (no all but many have reported this).
For the sake of couple of hundred dollars a year in extra fuel, the much cheaper price tag, more room , more torque, higher towing capacity, looks, handling, performance, I really think its hard to imagine why any one would buy a Hybrid full stop! False economy if you ask me.
A turbo diesel anything would be much smarter buy than this. Still, at least Toyota are giving it a go, but I hardly think Ford and Holden (or any manufacturer) will give a toss.
You don’t think Holden and Ford would give a toss?
Why the hell do you think they are pricing their “Large Cars” at the same price level as this and other mid sizers. Oh yes, and on roads.
Seriously, when Holden report another 150 mill dollar loss at the end of June, try doing the math on 15000 VE’s sold 5000 below rrp. Not to mention the goodies, drive away, larger alloys, yada yada.
Sure Holden and Ford GIVE a toss, they are being milked dry from discounted and fleet sales
True..after 50,000km in my FG, ive achived 8.3l/100km. I do stack of highway and mixed urban driving…and enjoy the loud pedal. Whats the point of babying a hybrid? Be keen to see what real life fleet experience to be honest
not a bad car but its a litle big for the city
The key question is how much fuel does it use if driven at a pace you would drive a normal big 6?
I want cars to be powerful and economical, if you have to drive them like a 1.0L Metro there is no point in the amazing economy.
this isn’t the car for you then
best look at an LPG XR6 if Ford ever get it to work with their 5/6 spds…
Or maybe just a regular falcon
Yeah just wait till the new LPG liquid phase injection comes out on the EGas falcons. Servicing will be cheaper and the car will have more poke. I doubt theres much difference in running cost compared to an EGas falcon.
I saw one parked down the road yesterday and IMO the styling is a lot better than the normal Camry.
Once Ford get the new LPG injection system working in the Falcon’s instead of the outdated system that has been in them for years, why would a ‘family’ consider this Hybrid?? I believe there are also aftermarket injection type LPG systems available on Commodores as well. Even tested on HSV’s. I’d like to see a ‘long term’ test of this latest abomination (whoops hybrid)by a website or car mag, and one of the journo’s with a decent sized family using it for Qld, VIC, or NSW road trips, etc, with possibly needing roof racks (due to the small boot), what about occasional towing (to the tip etc.). People shouldn’t have to drastically alter their driving methods to try and achieve ADR fuel consumption figures (which some cars do achieve sometimes in practical usage), or unduly delay and hinder other road users simply because they’re ‘playing’ with their hybrid. I like a write up I saw recently about why the Ford Fiesta econetic wouldn’t be such a good seller. The article pointed out that it didn’t look like a science experiment or scream ‘hybrid’, and failed to show everybody else how the owner was ‘saving the environment’, unlike the exhibitionist stylings(my words) of (as far as hybrids go anyway) Toyota. If someone just wants to use it as a city car and be ‘eco’ why not fork out for the econetic fiesta, or even wait for the upcoming econetic Focus, which in terms of size won’t be that far behind the Camry, especially in boot space. And if in sedan is what 510 litres or so….
So what happens with the boot in a Falcon or Commodore when they are converted to LPG?
And good luck getting LPG in the middle of nowhere!
You have less space available, just like this Camry which has lots of batteries in it’s boot. The argument is invalid.
You do know the Falcon is available as LPG only right? And LPG is more widespread than you think, just you dont look for it. My Lpg falcon does just over 700k’s to a tank so running out isnt a problem for me.
Atleast you can hook up a trailer in a falcadore if needed.
One very important question is how much will it cost, in projected price,
to replace the batteries in 8 years ?
Bet a few future buyers of second hand hybrids get caught with that one!!.
Considering there haven’t been any replacements of any hybrid battery systems since the first generation Prius over ten years ago, I believe your theory has holes.
Benjie, fair comment but it will happen one day won’t it?
These batteries are made up of 9 cells so you only need to replace the faulty cell should one fails.
Have to as you what do you do for a living ? I guess you have nothing to do with batteries You can replace a sell in thoses types of batteries son.
Did I read somewhere else that this car wont take a towbar?
What absolute marketing spin comparing a Camry with a Commodore or Falcon.
Different car classes, different boot space (in hybrid form) different towing/carrying capability, different performance.
Notice there was no comparison with Aurion? Not merely an oversight, simply marketing to the ignorant.
While we’re making comparisons between Hybrid Camry and Falcon. As far as possible, I can only find the Hybrid Camry reaching 4 star safety. Falcon is 5.
More small detail the PR department avoided mentioning.
yeah coz that passenger seatbelt warning is really important…
It would be interesting if CA did a real world family car test. This would involve filling the car with a family of 5, their luggage and towing an average sized caravan. The cars could be tested on a weeklong holiday & to see how they perform in real world conditions.
Stevo we all know that over 80% of all large cars go to fleets not familes. So how many of these fleet cars do you see towing anything? If you want to see what cars real familes are buying just stand outside your local school at 8.58am.
The only valid point is seating 5 adults. Internal cabin dimensions would be something I would like CA to do on all reviews.
A few facts re the standard Camry Altise, I have a 2008 model and have done just over 53,000km. It has a published combined cycle of 9.9L/100km.
My best economy for a tank:
7.68L/100km (recorded on a trip down the Pacific Hwy)
My worst economy for a tank:
14.91L/100km (around town!)
Life to date fuel consumption average for 53,000km:
These figures are by no means good but bear in mind the Camry is a large 4cyl car, there is no escaping that fact. It is big and it has a heart that needs plenty of juice to keep it pumping. Could a 6 cylinder Commodore, Falcon, Aurion or 380 achieve similar? Probably!!!
I’d prefer a 6 cylinder (preferably 8!) over my Camry every day of the week, but my next car is on order and I am eagerly waiting delivery. It’s a Hybrid Camry and I am very, very much looking forward to getting it.
My dads Accord gets maximum 10 litres/100km and thats when i’m driving it. It is also a big 4 cyl car with the same capacity as your Camry. Those figures are appalling for a 4 cyl car, no matter how much it weighs.
Camry Hybrid uses around 7.5 L/100km driven in inner city stop start traffic. This is about the worst figure to expect… still impressive for a car of this size. Good as this car is I’d rather wait for the second Gen version. This one should have a battery pack under the car, thereby allowing a conventional boot and LiOn batteries providing plug-in hybrid capabilities reducing the worst case urban figure whilst in charge to around 4L/100Km… now that would be car to wait for. For now I’d rather a diesel, but would be tempted by this as a plug-in hybrid when the next gen is released in around 3 years or so.
Hybrids are built for the city not country. Their country economy is nothing spectacular, their city petrol usage is where it is at, it is very good.
The Camry would make a great taxi, The Prius Taxi is apparently going well in Cairns
unfortunately taxis really need that extra boot space for luggage
So many Prius’s in cairns…
i used to have a statesman and now have prius. i can fit more luggage in my prius
The Power 110kW and Torque 187Nm from the petrol motor is pathetic for a 2.4L. A smaller and lighter 2L motor would be more than capable of these figures.
The engine is geared and tuned towards economy rather than outright power, and is meant to be complemented with the torque of the electric motor. It would be wasteful to tune it for outright power when the electric motor is doing part of the hard work.
It’d be interesting to hear from anyone who works as an ambulance officer, paramedic, fire brigade or police about how they would rescue someone in these hybrid cars if they were in a serious car accident. Is there a protocol for dismantling the battery (to prevent electrocution) or is entirely safe?
What is the cost of an average repair too over a standard Camry? the engine bay looks quite horrendous for the average joe blow smash repairer to fix..
Gasman, the HV system has a lot of safety measures in place. In the event of an accident, or if the airbags are deployed, SMRs (System Main Relays) cut power directly at the HV battery. So electrocution is pretty much impossible.
I believe Toyota issue Emergency Response Guides to emergency authorities, so cops, firies and ambos should know what to do in the event they attend an accident involving a hybrid vehicle.
Thanks Toyota Guru
If it is anything like the ones in the US it should be called kamrykaze.
“Volkswagen Jetta 77TDI uses 4.9L/100km”
What about the cost of diesel?
Has anybody thought about that?
Same as petrol in QLD>
I have looked at many sites on this subject and not
come across a site such as yours which tells
everyone everything that they need to know. I have
bookmarked your site. Can anyone else suggest any
other related topics that I can look for to find out
If you are after decent fuel economy and excellent power, can’t go past a 2 litre 125kw VW diesel (Passat or Skoda). I regularly see 1300kms from a tank and average 5.5 l / 100kms (70/30 country vs city driving). Around suburbs and town easily get 6.5l / 100kms without driving for economy. On flat road to Geelong will get 4.5l / 100. Latest generation turbo diesels are superb for power and economy. Power and torque of a 6 cylinder with no compromise with fuel economy.
I drive a VT s 5 speed with duel fuel. Gas is available most place in the country. Using both petrol and gas I have driven from Sydney to Bendigo with 4 adults plus holiday luggage and still wasn\’t out of fuel. Although luggage was a squeeze we managed to get everything in the boot with some small bags inside the car. If you enjoy driving, a manual car is often appreciated and though I am comfortable with either I do choose the manual if possible.
I just hired one through Hertz in Melbourne on the weekend and went to Hamilton in it. Approx 700km round trip. I got approx 6.5l/100Km out of the Hybrid, mainly doing highway and some stop/start. There was still 1/4 of tank of fuel in it when I returned it. I thought it was a bit sluggish off the lights, but once the engine kicked in it was fine. Overtaking there was plenty of guts. The boot space is disappointing. Being a golfer I would find it hard to put in a buggy and set of clubs. Plenty of leg room back and front.
I’ve had the Hybrid Camry for about a month now and am completely satisfied. The car is very smooth and has more than enough power and acceleration for both highway and city driving. All this is fine, and so are all of the options and gadgets, but what makes this car really special in my mind is the excellent fuel economy. I’ve done ~2300km so far and have been averaging 6.2L/100km, without really trying. This translates to ~ 1000km per 65L tank. For a genuine 5 seater that delivers 140kw of effortless power that’s pretty good! In my view Toyota is on a winner with it’s hybrid technology that, I believe, will only be fully appreciated as fuel prices continue to head northwards. The biggest challenge for Toyota is to demonstrate that its hybrid cars are reliable and there for the long haul.
Well at least we have positive comments from people who actually drove the car, well kudos to the Aussie engineers and builders, I hope Toyota looks to Australia a bit more when it comes to engineering and building their cars.
Not sure about the Aussie engineering input to the Camry Hybrid as it was already being sold in the US. Maybe the $35mil conned out of the Government was to encourage Toyota to build it here with higher local content from OE suppliers. But I guess the $35 mil has already gone to US over recalls on their other models
Your kinda right, the only engineering Australia did was the suspension, handling etc for our roads.
I am going into retirement and I want an economical largish inexpensive quality car car as daily driver, why largish? safety, grandkids from time to time and the occasional trip with adults in the back. Currently have an Aurion Presara which has been excellent, but will seriously consider this as a daily driver. I never considered a hybrid till I drove this – very pleasantly surprised – as a daily hack excellent (wife wont go near diesel, hands you know) . Probably wait for the next model Camry. Oh, with this part of the equation sorted I will pocket the change either keep my MX5 or put it towards a sporty “sensible” convertable. Ah technology you’ve done it again.
The hybrid camry does cost more than the normal camry, however with present discounting you can get a luxury model for about $4000 under the normal rrp.(you also get $130 services for the first 3 years) Also with toyota doing 1.5% finance (2.9% for business users) for camry hybrid buyers until the end of the financial year this makes the effective cost of the hybrid a lot cheaper than a normal camry.
I was going to get a camry, but ended up getting a hybrid camry as it was a lot cheaper overall, plus it will be cheaper to run.
i brought one of these a few weeks back traded in my 2006 ve commodore to buy it (will never buy a commodore again) car is used by my misses in the ve around town she was gettting 16ltrs per 100ks now driving the camry she is getting 6.7 and driving exacty the same and between the 2 there isnt alot of power differents, commodore had to be sold due to thousands of dollars of repairs done in the last yr of its warenty i was scared to own it without warenty. car defenty handels better than the ve also alot less floaty. very happy so far and recomend alot spec with the interest rate that i got 1.49% yes 1.49% interest rate works out def cheaper than buying the petrol one after the 4 yrs
can i have the Manuel of hybrid version of Camry in the U.S.
If you after bigger car Camry Hybrid is a good choice. Drive website did a very good test comparing Camry Hybrid, Commodore V6 3.0L and Falcon XT. A 45-kilometre route has been mapped out around the city and inner-eastern suburbs, the intention being to drive the Hybrid Camry, Falcon XT and Commodore Omega around the loop three times with three different drivers behind the wheel. Each driver drives each car on the same loop, to account for different driving styles. The cars will follow each other so they all encounter the same traffic and other conditions. After the traffic snarls of the CBD’s major streets and minor laneways, as often stationary as moving and rarely hitting more than 40km/h, a quick check of trip computers reveals the story.
The Camry is averaging 11.1L/100km, the Commodore more than double that at 22.6L/100km and the Falcon higher again at 24.0L/100km. As the day progresses the peak-hour crush gradually clears away and the fuel averages of the two sixes drop — but so does the Camry’s.
The wash-up? Over 142 kilometres and nearly nine hours of slow and medium-speed driving, the Camry has averaged 8.9L/100km against the Commodore’s 17.3L/100km and the Falcon’s 17.4L/100km. A quite extraordinary result that proves this concept truly works. A big victory on our city loop for the Hybrid Camry.
Source: Drive 15 Feb 2010
why don’t Toyota build a real hybrid car. big electric motor and battery pack then small diesel generator. they’ve already got what they need a 105kw 260Nm electric motor will get you to 100+ in a reasonable time. then you have the generator to charge the batteries on the go for longer trips. you’ll get a fuel economy approaching 0liters/100km (if you dive, say less then 50km a day)
why have a 2.5litre petrol engine as a backup.
Wow you are from the future. How is the weather tomorrow Arthur? November 24, 2010 at 2:50 am
I think it’ll be a bit dark…
hahaha not how i meant it to be interpreted. It says that it is the 24th of November 2.50 am and that’s not the time or date atm in sydney. Hence the future comment.
Yeah I was just playing along. Hey look at my last comment, even further in the future. Who knows what time this one will come up?
I have been driving the Camry Hybrid for 3 months now. I mostly do local short trips (school pickups, supermarket, sports ovals) that are around 2km. Fuel consumption for these trips would be around 10L/100Km.
When I drive around the city – trips around 20km, the fuel consumption does fall to around 6 to 7L/100km without trying too hard.
Haven’t done much highway driving so can’t comment.
My previous car was a Camry Advantage 2.0L. This is a significant improvement. More power, good mod cons, more room (except for the boot size). I am visiting the petrol station about half as often, and fewer service visits are required. I’m pretty happy about the time saving, which is the little-publicised aspect of owning this car.
Done 4000km in 10 weeks and average since 14km on clock is 6.0L/km in Perth’s flat ground city traffic. Traded in a diesel as my wife hated the droning particularly at low revs and yes you need to wear gloves when filling up. Agree with review that it is difficult to start without petrol kicking in, but acceleration when wanted is brilliant and instantaneous. I suspect being front wheel drive the electric motor is actually limited by the controls.
Where is the rev counter? I don’t know if the fuel usage gauge they replaced it with will be very accurate?
I think this car is a wonderful one! But i don’t see the reason while all the car companys are starting to make hybrids! The Camry should of stayed non-hybrid!
why do you want to givr lots of money to countries full of people that hate us?
Camry hybrid is back with petrol around $1.5 and unrest in oil producing countries. Watch out for a “Day of Rage” in Saudi Arabia on May 11. Petrol could go to $2 per liter than Camry is really looks good.
I have achieved 5.8l/100k over the past 12 months travelling 25,000km with a daily commute of just under 50km which is a combination of rural and city driving. With petrol at $1.40 a litre I am saving around $1300 a year on fuel compared to a non hybrid camry. In addition the comfort and quietness of the car make it a pleasure to drive and the technogadgets are superb.
I drove a base model hybrid over a 700 k trip last week and now i want the luxery version in short there awsome driving hard and overtakeing for 400 ks with a/c going all the time it used 35 litres over 500 ks and that was flooring it past many trucks and cruising at 140 kph , before i knew how to look at fuel usage it showed 7 l per 100 k in that going id say a commo or falco would be 12 litres plus in that going , in a shorter drive over 30 ks distance it droped to 6 litres i was sitting on cruise at 100 kph at this time i felt it would have kept droping to like 5.1 had the trip been further and it handles very well balance between engine and battery pack is brilliant
Us the Toyota Calculator and compare Modeo Diesel and Hybrid and Modeo is $200.00 more expensive to run annually (20,000Km). Mondoe $34k verses Hybrid $54k. figures tell the story.