Car Advice

Would you buy a diesel car? Diesel popularity on the rise

By John Cadogan |

Would you buy a diesel sports car? Or even a diesel car? Statistically, not many people would – but their number is increasing. In fact, according to Ausstats’ Motor Vehicle Census 2009, the number of “passenger vehicles” (cars and SUVs, basically) registered with diesel engines jumped by a staggering 80 per cent in the five years since 2004.

In the same timeframe, the number of passenger vehicles in Australia has grown only 13 per cent, from 10.6 million to 12.0 million.

Diesel cars themselves still represent only a small proportion of cars on the road. Only 579,688 of Australia’s 12 million passenger vehicles were diesels in 2009 – about one car/4WD in every 21 on the road. Yet back in 2004 it was a smidge of just over 322,000 diesels floating in a sea of 10.6 million (one in every 33 cars/4WDs). There have never been more diesel cars on Australian roads.

The bottom line with diesels is that you get more torque and less power, which leads to some interesting driving effects. Say you’re in a petrol car at 2500rpm on the highway. You get to a steep hill. You don’t want to lose any speed. You push the accelerator. The engine-management computer interprets that (correctly) as a demand for more torque. It says, “but I need to rev higher for more torque,” since 3500-odd rpm is where peak torque hangs out (at wide-open throttle) in a petrol engine.

So the transmission shunts back one (or sometimes two) gears, which can be hateful – especially in heavy cars that are low on torque.

In a diesel, however, in the same situation peak torque is often at about 1800-2000rpm. As the revs come back the engine makes more torque and the car seems to lope over the hill without so much fuss, seeming quite effortless.

The down-side is power. Diesels don’t make so much power (because they can’t rev as high, and power is torque divided by revs, basically). That means a diesel will never out-accelerate a petrol in an apples-for-apples shootout – even though it might make for a more effortless cruiser.

On the environment front, diesels are about 30 per cent more thermodynamically efficient than petrols. This means lower fuel consumption and less CO2 emissions to the tune of about 30 per cent. Unfortunately, some very nasty microscopic particles are emitted from diesel exhausts. In cars with catalytic exhaust filters, they are trapped and periodically burnt away without driver intervention (and the filters never need to be replaced). Unfortunately, there’s no requirement for manufacturers to fit them.

The last two essential bits of ‘diesel’ info concerns the economics of the stuff. There are about 20 billion litres of petrol sold in Australia every year, but only about two billion litres of diesel sold through service stations (another eight billion litres or so is sold in bulk). So that means petrol bowsers out-number diesel bowsers about 10 to one. You’ll have to search an unfamiliar servo to find the (usually) lone diesel bowser – and although we can put a man on the moon 40 years ago, science still hasn’t invented a diesel filler nozzle that doesn’t leak. You’ll continuously get the stuff all over your hands – and it stinks, which is a major disincentive for, in particular, women (and metrosexuals).

This 10-for-one outnumbering scenario means fuel retailers (servo operators) are disinclined to discount diesel to drive up their store sales in the way they get people into the shop by dropping the retail margin on petrol to get people into the shop so they can buy ridiculously inflated bottled water, thereby keeping the servo profitable.

Finally, there’s economics – a diesel engine is more complex than a petrol engine, so they charge a premium for them. Usually that’s about $2500, and it erodes most of the economic benefit of buying the diesel. (In fact last time I calculated this all out, the costs of operating petrol and diesel cars for the terms of the tease were approximately line-ball.) And there’s no guarantee the price of diesel will remain low. World economies, and in particular industries, run on diesel. And in fact, jet fuel and diesel are distilled from the same fraction of crude oil. What this means is that as world economies recover, demand for diesel (effectively a fixed-supply resource) will increase. Therefore, the price will rise. As world economies recover and more air travel is required, the supply of diesel might actually drop. Result? More upward pressure on price. (Not that petrol will be immune from upward price pressure either in the medium term.)

If you haven’t watched the Audi TT 2.0 TDI video review, please do so, and leave your comments on that as well. We’re currently working on a functional specification for video car reviews on CarAdvice, and your thoughts would be appreciated. The TT 2.0 TDI web review is here.


 
  • Frenchie

    Wait for the diesel price to spike again. Then we will see how much diesel uptake there is.

    What annoys me about your story is that you say diesel is up by 80% of a small base number. Yet you say the whole car market is up only 13% (which is really some 200,000 vehicles).

    Statistics in percentage form can be manipulated to sway ones opinion.

    • lazybones

      The same could be said with Petrol Frenchie. 2008 Wasn’t a good year for either.

      • Frenchie

        True, but diesel was 30-40 cents per litre more than petrol.
        I suppose in the end you may get an extra 100km out of a tank even with that price difference.

        • The Real Car Fanatic

          It was more like 25 cents a litre difference at the peak against 91 octane sometime around June July 2008, yet still Diesel was more economical to run as you say. I think I worked out Diesel had to be 2.25 a litre compared to 1.62 for unleaded before they were on even par.

          • itsme

            The one thing very bad about diesel is its far more deadly to us humans .Yes it may be bit better to the enviroment than petrol but its far more harmful to us.I just watched a show on it and it causes all sorts of cancers.And so dose petrol but no were near as much as diesel.

          • Golfschwein

            Yer

        • http://internode.on.net Pete

          The price difference actually wasn’t that great and in the Passat you are looking at around an extra 250Km per tank.

          As Car Fanatic says the price difference has to be around 35% – 40% greater before diesel equates to petrol.

          • Adrian

            My VW Passat 2.0lt Diesel gets 1,130kms per tank (approx 65 litres) and averagers
            approx 6lts per 100km. Thats approx double the average unleaded car.

      • F1MotoGP

        Yes I agree. Since 1997 diesel is up 4.6% pa, ULP91 5% pa,
        PULP95 4.9% pa

  • lazybones

    Yup I would, or should I say just have. In the 2 cases where i’ve filled up i’ve yet to find a leaking pump or a problem with smell. What I have noticed is the stable price of Diesel. In the first month of ownership (91RON) petrol has been over 10c more expensive. With just one week over Christmas where it dipped below the Diesel. Not to mention I drive a 7 seater and returned less that 6.5ltrs/100 on a 320km beach trip to Lorne with 6 passengers.

    The only problem with Diesel is if your into a car with a nice engine note, in which case Diesel is not for you.

    • Sam 300TD

      I beg to differ, it is possible. Listen to the great sound coming from the engine in the diesel TT review. It sounds great! However, most diesels don’t play a very nice tune, I agree.

      • Vince

        The new Kia Sorento has a noice note. :)

        • http://n/a cletis

          why do you say that ? do you sell them or something???

        • hmmm

          I bet it sounds simular to the Hyundai Santa Fe

    • lazybones

      Agreed the Audi sounds awesome

    • Tomas79

      Too right, i absolutely love the sound of my diesel… although it’s nearly impossible to hear it with the windows closed….

      Also, what do people have against the diesel smell?? Diesels don’t really smell much like anything, maybe detergent… But petrol has a really strong overwhelming smell, and LPG has a really offensive, rotten cabbage smell…

      • Drugal

        HATE everything about DIEsels, and i have had 2x, the ONLY thing thay have going for them is range/miles you get out of a MODERN DIEsel…

        YES LPG does have a odour, but thats man made and added so you can tell if it leaks, LPG is a s clean as it gets. [Oh, i love it!]

        Following [just before overtaking these clunckers] DIEsels i have to always turn the HVAC controls to rec. as the pollution burns my eyes and STINKS.

        PASS

        • Rick

          Each to their own. The diesels you have had must have been old tech.

          I own a MODERN diesel (BMW 320D) which has a diesel particulate filter. I have driven behind it and even when accelerating from traffic lights I defy anyone to pick it as a diesel (except that it will be clearing off into the distance). It averages 7.4 l/100km around central Melbourne and 4.4 l/100km on the freeway. It accelerates from 0 to 100km/h in 8.0 secs. In 12 months I have NEVER had to use an oily pump handle (is the author using truck stops ?). Over the last 12 months diesel has been cheaper than standard unleaded every time I have filled up bar two times. The ONLY downside to a diesel is, as someone else has pointed out, that they don’t sound fantastic.

          LPG on the other hand stinks so much that I find myself setting the AC to recirculate so I don’t have to smell it. LPG is great if a) you want to drive a taxi b) don’t want to carry anything in the boot c) you’re happy to put up with crap performance.

          As I said, each to their own. I know I won’t be in any rush to go back to petrol and I will NEVER use LPG.

          • Billyblogster

            I agree that LPG takes up the boot, of course. But there are several modern LPG injection systems, as modern as your diesel, that provide more horsepower than PULP. The best of them actually do not vaporise the gas, they actually inject it as liquid. I have a turbo diesel that’s great, but I also had a twin turbo V8 with liquid gas injection…nothing could catch it.

    • lazybones

      I must be missing something because i’ve got the Santa Fe which has the same Bosch motor as the sorento. And it sounds like a turbo charged tractor.

      The Mazda 6 which i took for a test drive did have a slight burning oil odour in the cabin. This was also noticable in the MY07 Santa Fe. But not in the MY09. Even standing outside the car engine running there is no noticeable odour.

      My conclusion is there must be a couple of crappy new Diesels out there destroying the reputation of the majority which are both clean, and don’t chuck out Particulates.

      • Fog Badger

        Agree, Lazybones.

        The new Santa Fe diesel sounds nice and has plenty of ‘muscle’. Nice drivetrain too.

      • Robin Graves

        Bosch dont make engines. They make the injection system and computers for manufacturers, including Hyundai.

  • JEKYL & HYDE

    in countries where fuel is expensive(eg europe),diesel has been the only choice for years now,simply because its cheaper from a 2 b.Its worth googleing h.c.c.i.,which is a petrol motor that works like a diesel.gives you best of both worlds(better economy,but heaps of b.h.p. when the foot goes down).it will be made when the demand is there for it too…

    • Deco

      GM is leading that technological front, but it will be many years before they get it working for the market.

    • Drugal

      Just back from Europe, they are no longer pushing DIEsel, the BIG thing [finally catched up to us] is LPG, all the brands have factory fitted or approved/engineered kits, together with massive GovCo rebates.

      MAYBE DIEsels days are over, or at least on the down-slide….

      • Fog Badger

        Have to disagree, Drugal.

        I’ve lived in Europe (Switzerland and Belgium) for 4 out of the last five years and found diesel alive and kicking. Company cars are practically 100% diesel.

      • Cupid Stunt

        Soooo not true, name me one manufacture LPG car on the UK market. Tesco the largest grocery retailer selling fuel at supermarket prices stripped all the LPG fill out.

  • Lang Chye

    Power is a product of torque & rpm, not torque divided by revs.

    • John Cadogan

      Quite right. Power = torque x revs with revs in radians/sec. Well spotted. Hanging my head in shame for getting it wrong… John Cadogan

  • bob

    To say that Diesel engines are more complex than petrol engines is a bit of a misleading blanket statement. They’re not more or less complex, they’re just different. They might have more sohpisticated injection systems, but they don’t have issues with ignition systems. Swings and roundabouts.

    I wouldn’t say that the Golf 2.0 TDi is more complex than the 1.4 Twin Charger unit in the current Golf. But it may be more complex than the 1.8 litre Naturally Aspirated Corolla engine. See what I’m getting at.

    Personally, I love having so much torque right where you need it, without needing to wring its neck. Unless you like to have a drag race every time you take off, then Diesel is a much better engine to live with I think.

    • John Cadogan

      Sorry, but I disagree. Fuel rail with 1800 atmosphere pressure in it. Precision manufacturing of high-pressure fuel system components. Significantly more complex injectors and software management (five injection pulses per firing event). Diesel particulate catalysing filter (where fitted) and management system. More complex fuel filtration system. Higher specification on piston ring sealants. Turbocharger (often with variable geometry) on every modern diesel engine. The average current diesel engine is significantly more complex than the average new petrol engine. End of story. Thanks for reading my story though – John Cadogan

      • Reckless1

        Not the end of story at all. Petrol engines are approaching diesels in complexity if not exceeding. To achieve economy, power, and low emissions they will all be turbo soon (except Toyota’s, maybe)

        What’s the fuel rail pressure in a VAG 2.0T engine? It’s not much less than a diesel fuel rail pressure. Ever looked at how that engine doesn’t return excess fuel to the tank? It has an auxiliary water pump to keep circulating water after engine shutdown, including through the turbo. It has sump mounted balance shafts, etc, etc. No way is it less complex than a diesel, and then there’s the twincharger….

        I think your statement that diesels are more complex is not as clear cut as you believe. Higher spec on piston ring sealants? Give me a break – what sort of gobbledegook is that.

      • Tinman

        John, it’s never the end of the story in an open forum.
        The diesel engine is controlled by fuel delivery alone, as it is constant wide open throttle and has no ignition system (spark plugs).
        The petrol engine is controlled by air, fuel and spark delivery.
        The petrol engine requires two more systems in order to function.
        The diesel only needs to know where the piston is, in order to deliver the fuel.
        In my books and with over thirty years of blood,sweat and tears working on these infernal machines, I say the petrol engine is far more complex.
        Diesel is better at moving mass with its high torque, although its limited rev range requires more gears.
        Petrol is better at producing speed with its extended rev range, although extra gears do not always produce extra speed due to the lack of torque at the top.
        And by the way, it’s not over until the fat bloke with the beer, sings!

        • Tinman

          Oh and before I forget. The reason diesel engine cars cost more is that the R & D costs have to be recouped over a smaller number of units produced. Petrol powered vehicles still rule, for now.

        • John Cadogan

          Gentlemen, my comments relate to the AVERAGE petrol engine versus the AVERAGE diesel engine currently on sale in passenger vehicles. Certainly the specific VAG 2.0T engine is much more complex than the average petrol engine out there, and I take your points on it. It’s a very nice example of an engine.
          Average petrol: No turbocharger. One fuel injection ‘event’ per combustion cycle. Low-pressure fuel rail. Low-pressure injector outside the combustion chamber. Low compression, and low-pressure combustion events (as evidenced by the lesser torque).
          Therefore:
          Average diesel: Forced induction, often with variable geometry and an intercooler. Five fuel injection events per combustion cycle. Extremely complex piezoelectric injectors. High-pressure fuel rail, and high-pressure combustion events requiring a higher ring/bore sealing specification.

          Agreed that air is unthrottled in a diesel. Agreed that a petrol needs a spark system. However, I think that the diesel engine needs to know more than the position of the piston for fuel delivery — it also needs to know its speed and the driver’s torque demand (accelerator position), which the petrol also needs to know.

          Also, Tinman: This ‘requiring more gears’ claim is unsubstantiated. In passenger cars, diesel or petrol, five, six or seven gears is more than adequate to competently move the mass. And petrol isn’t better at producing speed, in general it’s better at producing acceleration, via superior power production. Power delivers acceleration, torque delivers constant speed against resistance of (for example) gravity. Diesels are limited in power production via the law of diminishing returns. Substantially higher fuel rail pressures allow higher rpm operation (the pathway to power, since power = torque x revs) but the amount of extra pressure required quickly becomes unachievable or at least impractical.

          This business of extra gears not always producing extra speed also needs a polish. Gearboxes are basic speed/torque multiplication devices. Higher gearing increases speed if the engine produces enough torque (multiplied by gearing) to overcome the sum of resistances operating against the car at that speed. The ideal is to balance the gearing so that top gear delivers just enough torque (at the wheels) at whatever engine rpm to overcome the total resistance, which can be tricky since aerodynamic drag increases with between the square and cube of speed, depending on shape.

          So, for the time being at least, petrol seems perfectly placed to win in the acceleration stakes. Diesels are unbeatable at torque (or, more correctly, low-rpm power production).

          Speed’s a question of lowering aerodynamic drag and getting the gearing right, a fact that I’m sure Audi’s engineers keep fussing over right up until the chequered flag drops at Le Mans…

          (And I agree with you that petrol still rules. In fact it’s a joy to drive anything that goes hard — petrol or diesel. They’re just different; I don’t reckon one is better than the other.)

          • Tinman

            John, I can understand your fascination with the CRDi system that produces in excess of 26000psi, but it’s still not enough to make the diesel more complicated than a petrol.The turbocharger itself is relatively simple with few parts, even in variable form.
            The clue to the complexity of an engine lies in the size of its brain, the ECU.
            The petrol engine has a more powerful ECU, because it has more inputs and outputs.
            The ECU on the petrol engine controls more functions over a wider rpm range, that’s why it needs more processing power.
            It controls: air flow at idle, air flow at throttle closure,spark timing and sequential distribution of spark(to reduce back-EMF),camshaft phasing as well as the variable intake system.
            These are not part of your average diesel engine.
            As I’ve said, the diesel ECU only needs to know where the piston is in order to pulse the injector, which in the Bosch generation 3 CRDi is followed by 4 more pulses to reduce engine knock and emmissions.
            Pulse widths are variable on both engines.

            Before I start on gearing, there are a couple of things that need to be understood.
            1.Acceleration is the product of torque.
            2.Speed is the product of power.

            The average diesel produces maximum torque at 2500rpm and maximum power at 4000rpm and benefits from a higher final drive ratio as well as higher ratios in 2nd,3rd,4th and so on.
            Diesels benefit from more ratios due to their narrow/low rpm torque delivery and low rpm power delivery, in order to achieve speed.
            The average petrol produces maximum torque at 4000rpm and maximum power at 6000rpm and benefits from a lower final drive ratio as well as lower ratios in 1st,2nd and 3rd.
            Petrols benefit from the torque multiplication effect through lower gearing, yet still achieve speed due to their high rpm nature.

            The diesel engine’s rpm limit is not so much restricted by fuel delivery, but more so by the rate of combustion of an oil(no matter how finely atomized), as well as high piston speed.
            The rate of change of rpm is further hindered by high internal reciprocating mass as well as the heavy flywheel.

            These are the reasons petrol engines accelerate faster and achieve higher speeds, but also at much higher rates of consumption.
            (air drag, mass, gradient all being equal)

            Which brings me to Le Man. My understanding is that this is a 24 hour endurance race with many variables like any race, although tyre wear, brake wear, driver change and fuel consumption should be fairly constant. I guess if you can gear up a diesel to achieve similar speeds of a petrol, what you lose in acceleration you should make up in about 30% fewer fuel stops.

            Diesel engines have always had a reputation for being reliable due to their relative simplicity, and durability due to their slow revving nature.
            I don’t think that CRDi or turbocharging have changed that.

      • Drugal

        And DIEsels, the Mazda CX7 is the first of them, need urea added to a seperate tank for proper and clean burning of NoX etc.

        Another $500? refill charge every 40,000km.

        What a stupid idea that is.

        So OVER DIEsels, good for tractors and earthmoving machinery, thats it!

        • Devil’s Advocate

          Drugal, you may want to get your facts straight before you continue with your diesel hate campaign. The “adblue” urea additive for the Mazda CX7 is around $140, NOT $500 and it requires refills every 20k, not 40k. By my poor maths that is still quite a bit less than $500 every 40k. Plus the CX7 is not the first of them, it is only the first passenger car with it in Australia. Other manufacturers have been using a urea additive for a few years now in other markets around the world in trucks/buses and cars. People might take your argument a little more seriously if you actually get your facts right in the first place. However I guess you can’t let the facts get in the way of a good story! :-)

          I find it funny that you bag out diesel for being dirty/smelly etc and then when a manufacturer becomes pro-active and uses a method to reduce that smoke/smell you are complaining about (that exceed the current emission requirements etc), you bag them out for doing that! You don’t happen to be a member of parliament in an opposition party do you? ;-)

          • The Real Car Fanatic

            I think he sniffs LPG

  • Lachlan

    Well i own a Turbo Diesel Ford Focus, and it would have to be one of the best cars i have ever owned not to mention driven. i would love to see more sport cars with diesel engines, because you can still have plenty of fun with them and not have to worry so much about fuel economy.

  • Fred

    NO !!

    When it comes to replacing / repairing Engine parts like injectors and injector pump all the past savings in fuel will all be gone in one big hit. $$$$$$$$$

  • bob

    I dunno Fred. That sounds a bit alarmist. I don’t suppose by any chance you have any data which could back that up?

    I’ve seen quite a few Golf V TDis with 160,000+km on the clock and no major problems occuring which have broken any banks. Although I guess my lack of seeing such problems isn’t real evidence either.

  • Blue1702

    I’ve owned Diesel cars alongside petrol cars for years, and no, the service and repair costs are not higher for Diesel, and no, I’ve never come away from a pump stinking of leaked fuel (I think that has more to do with the user than the equipment).
    Bob is right in saying that diesels are no more complicated that the equivalent petrol engine nowadays, though I do concede that they have BECOME more complicated over the years.
    You shouldn’t choose diesel purely on the basis of running costs though as we know that the initial cost of buying is going to be higher, but buy according how you will use your vehicle and your style of driving. For easy long distance cruising, nothing beats a turbo diesel, especially mated to a good auto box (which in the past was always an issue), and as for outright speed, most changes are made on the move rather than off the line, and this is where the diesel will win almost every time delivering a huge amount of torque from the word go.

  • Jim

    I bought a Diesel last year (Freelander 2) because of the torque advantage. As an additional plus, Diesel prices in Melbourne are much less volatile than Petrol prices. I never got any Diesel on my hands while filling the car. I would buy a Diesel again.

    • Tony

      You wont want to fill up where I live then because I have not seen a diesel pump that doesn’t leak yet in my area. I drive a diesel and always use paper towel to pick up the filler nozzel. And yes I would buy another diesel sports car as this is the second I have owned ( not really sports cars but SUVs) and absolutly love the way it drives with heaps of torque. The new 3ltr V6 diesel in the Range Rover is a also a great engine to drive because of the torque.

    • The Real Car Fanatic

      Jim is absolutely right.I’ve had diesel on my hands once, my Golf is now almost two years old and done 31,000 K’s. I’m guessing I’ve filled it up maybe forty times since I bought it brand new, probably less, but you get the picture. If you are getting Diesel on your hands everytime you fill up, I’m hedging bets you are clumsy John ( lotta smashjed plates at your house is there?)

      • Will

        Agreed RCF.

  • Technofreak

    I owned a Diesel Mazda6 for 3 years. Lovely car and great fuel economy but the engine was boring and in the end I got rid of it as it was driving me insane. Could not live with the narrow powerband!!

  • Sam 300TD

    I love my diesel Mercedes! By the way, i find most servos these days have paper towel or gloves you can use to keep you hands free from diesel oil when filling up. Also, no mention of diesel engines lasting longer. Is that a fallacy?

  • billy_bob_119

    I think a better questions to ask would be “would you by a Hybrid?”.

    • The Real Car Fanatic

      Retardation perhaps?

  • MK

    Diesel is fine until someting brakes, like a blown turbo, which can easily costs more (to repair all the damages caused) than to replace a whole petrol engine.

    • The Real Car Fanatic

      Same can be said for a turbo petrol engine.

    • Will

      MK:
      Again, history tells us that the turbo will last the life of the motor.

  • t39

    Diesel is great for long distance travel, gives a sense of security that you have enough range for a detour. The diesel engine in my VW Tiguan is fantastic, no turbo lag, and pulls well instantly from minimal revs.

  • JD

    Diesel exhaust is about 100 times worse for the environment and far more toxic and carcinogenic than gasoline.

    • Myles

      That is a blanket statement that is so far from the truth.

      According to the Mercedes-Benz website, my A180CDI produces 137g/km of CO2 compared to 165g/km of CO2 for the petrol equivalent. Ive checked other car manufacturers websites and its the same story.

      They may be toxic and carcinogenic, like the fumes are from petrol as well. But 100x more so?

      • Andrew M

        Sorry Myles,
        JD is right.

        Perhaps 100times is an exaggeration, I believe 90% more is the accurate guide.

        You are only comparing the Co2 rating which is actually the better gas for our environment.
        Go back and check your reaserch, this time look at the pollution rating.
        Pollution rating includes the deadly gases JD talks of.

        Also, just check how many “Green stars” both the petrol and Diesel versions are awarded. The petrol will have more green stars guaranteed……
        The lesser co2 from diesels is more than overridden by the other toxic stuff they emitt.
        Diesels = greener is a myth when you actually look into it

        • The Real Car Fanatic

          Typically a Diesel engine will give off approximately 24 times Nitrogen oxide than petrol which is damaging to the ozone layer. Petrol engines in turn give off twice as much Carbon Monoxide which is poisonous to humans and animals, so while Diesels detroy the ozone, Petrol poisons us twice as fast. If you have a Nitrogen Oxide absorber in your particulate filter ( diesels) it will reduce the Nitrogen Oxide output by at least two thirds maybe more.

          • Cupid Stunt

            Not forgetting that a Diesel engines Nox will reduce as it get older to a point that is less than an equivalent petrol car. Not a point well known or often made.
            Also diesels have achieved Euro 5 engine compliance sooner than petrols with many diesel engines reaching Euro 5 some 4 years ahead of the requirement.
            Petrol heads conveniently forget up their exhausts is sooty. I drove behind a diesel Jag XF the other day and could see up it’s exhaust to the muffler to see shiny new metal not a coating of soot.

      • Fog Badger

        Hang on, JD. My understanding is that diesel is far less refined than RON91 and co., making a good environmental argument in terms of less processing.

  • Whitbomb07

    It would take one heck of alot to convince me to ever own a petrol vehicle ever again. No regrets whatsoever.

    If you want to hoon, buy petrol, if you want to DRIVE, buy a diesel!

    Regards

    Whitbomb07

    • Andrew M

      Or an I6…..

      • Team Red

        ugh

    • Snowman

      Agreed!

      I went from a V6 Commodore to a Hyundai I30 diesel, and am rapt with it. With the V6 I was used to driving with what I term a lazy motor, (ie low revving & not revving the rings off the car) and the diesel allows me to continue that -while using 1/2 the fuel that I was using before!

      After driving a 1.6 petrol auto from Melbourne to Qld for a friend last month, there is no way I could go to a small petrol ever!

      Snowman

      • Reckless1

        Test drive a VW/Audi/Skoda with the small 2.oT engine – that will erase the memory of your 1.6 auto trauma :)

      • ptwhite2003

        Thank goodness – someone at last who can spell “rapt” properly!

  • ryan

    Diesel car with DPF (particulate filter) can’t be used as city car only that is driven in start stop traffic within short distance (eg. as mum’s taxi for dropping kids to school and to local shopping centre). If this is the only usage pattern, then the DPF will be clogged in no time and there will never be enough time/heat to perform complete regeneration.
    Until manufacturers come up with a more reliable DPF regeneration that will always works in ANY usage conditions (eg. by using electricity to perform regeneration), I won’t buy diesel car.
    Please, I know that we should drive it on a freeway once a week probably to clean the DPF. But not everyone always has the time (for whatever reasons) to do this.

    • Frenchie

      What minimum distance would require for the filter to heat up? What does a DPF cost? What happen to the vehicle when the DPF clogged up?

      • Safety First

        Recomended best opperating proceedure is one hour at 100km/h once a month for average users. (15 > 20k/annum) Can be overcome somewhat by using “UREA” as people like Ford are working with at present.
        Just for the record yes I would buy a Diesel (if I ever bought a car). Mondeo TDCi, Focus TDCi and Fiesta Econetic are all better drives (more responsive through the bends) than their petrol cousins. Focus TDCi actually matches the Torque of the XR5 so is a lot of fun in the hills. Oh and the economy ain’t bad either…

      • ryan

        That varies. It requires a reasonable distance and reasonable engine rev. If it’s clogged up to a certain level, you have to clean it at a dealer or replace it if it can’t be regenerated (clogged too much). This is expensive. Also, probably dealers will not cover DPF replacement under warranty if they believe you don’t use the car correctly (eg. for short distance star stop city driving only). Here are a couple links that describe DPF problems
        http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=70274
        http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=66499

        Also good info here:
        http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/fuels-and-environment/diesel-particulate-
        filters.html
        Google it. I believe you’ll find some.
        Bottom line, diesel cars with DPF can’t be used reliably as city car only.

        • Safety First

          For some reason someone voted against this little sub thread, I balanced it out because these are common questions and perhaps the Original Author could look into this sub subject and give some more Discussion.
          There are lots of untruths about Diseasel engines (both ways) that I would like to see dispelled by some more reports like the one above.

        • Mad Max

          This is a very good point. While in the UK last year, I read a very reputable car magazines website concerning the diesel engined Nissan Qashqui (Dualis here). The website has a section where owners of featured cars can write about their ownership experiances. A large number of diesel Qashqui owners were complaining about the check engine lights coming on and this was traced back to the DPF becoming clogged due to short distances driven. Nissans recomendation was 30 mins of freeway driving at 60+ mph. I’m not sure if other brands have this issue but with our higher distances traveled here in Australia its possibly not going to be much of an issue with most owners.

          • ryan

            True, it might be ok for some people who sometimes drive the car through freeway. But what surprising is I have never seen any automotive journalist bring this up during diesel car testing. All they do is just praising how much torque the car has. They never mention “Beware the DPF regeneration problem”.
            Why can\’t manufacturers come up with a better way to burn the soots?
            Using electric current to generate heat or microwave for instance. This could burn the soots in seconds probably and doesn\’t require extended driving at high speed/rev.

          • Al

            My Mazda 3 Turbo Diesel has a DPF warning light that comes on if it’s getting blocked.
            In two years it has only come on once.
            When it comes on, you need to give it about 15 mins to half an hour at 100 km/h.
            I did this and it was fine straight away.
            Don’t be scared about DPFs, they have warning systems and as long as you follow directions, you’ll be fine.

      • Philthy

        I have read $5000 for a replacement dpf on some VW forums. Not sure if thats 100% correct but a little worrying if so.

        • Will

          Phillthy:
          Large particle filters will last the life of the motor. You are reflecting upon shadows that in the real world do not exist.

          • freddo

            Catalitic convertors are meant to last the life of a petrol car also, however they often dont.

  • Frenchie

    Are diesel injectors more expensive to replace than petrol injectors?

    • Will

      Chances are if you buy a well serviced and driven unit, this issue shall not arise.

  • Gazza

    Diesel for trucks, tractors and 4WD’s. Petrol for everything else.

    • Safety First

      You forgot to mention that diseasel is also for Le Mans 24hr winners, VW GOLF Cup (Europe) Winners, some very very fast Ocean going Power Boats.

      • Tinman

        Those particular categories of racing (endurance)are won on fuel efficiency.
        Diesel can’t beat petrol on speed, just like petrol can’t beat jet fuel and jet fuel can’t beat solid rocket propellant. All internal combustion.

        • Tomas79

          What a load of rubish tinman,
          Diesel has higher energy density then petrol, and actually is very similar to jet fuel. You can use Jet fuel in some diesel engines, without any mods at all…

          • Tinman

            Excuse me for assuming that you had the intelligence to realise that those fuels would be used in their relative engines.

        • Will

          A very broad assumption. View the LeMans this year and see whom is passing who on the main straight. View carefully the Audis and Peugeots as they pass the Aston Martin Lolas and Corvettes.

      • Gazza

        Bit out of my price range mate and not real practical for a trip to the shops!
        One of my cars is a diesel and yeah it’s a good 4wd and good for towing but thankfully it’s not my personal day to day transport.
        The noise, power delivery and smell turn me off completely. I’ll take a powerful petrol car anyday.
        I’ve had some interesting visits to the servo with our diesel. Yes, there’s always the smell of diesel on your hands and the greasy footprints on the carpet but final straw for me is when I have to wait for ages for a truck to fill his tanks at the one lonely pump at the back of the local station.
        Also I think diesel sports cars are an expensive joke. A petrol engine combined with a good manual gearbox enables you get the most out of the vehicle in every situation and a lot more fun to boot.
        Because of all the questions hanging over their impact on the environment, I believe they are only just being accepted until other alternatives become more viable. Then they’ll be back where they belong in trucks, tractors and 4WD’s.

        • Tinman

          Choice is a wonderful thing.

        • Fog Badger

          I just can’t believe that people are carrying on about the smell of diesel and carpet stains from their ‘gas’ station! Unbelievable!

          As for the torque band, work with the engine – it’s that easy!

          Nothing better than a turbo diesel with a great drivechain.

  • Nat Redgrave

    I absolutely love diesel the best around have just bought a new range rover sport tdv6 sequential turbo charged absolutely awesome owned a 6L v8 commodore and i reckon the diesel rangie is soo much better to drive much nicer and much funner wouldnt even go back to a petrol car unless it was a lambo or a ferrari but i cannot speak more highly of the awesome technology in diesels soo quiet and on the fly you wouldnt even know it was diesel when passing feels like a high performance v8 with all that torque love it

  • davie

    Based on the above article, I would encourage everyone to buy a diesel car if it results in less metrosexuals.

  • David Jones

    I wouldn’t go back either have a 125kw Passat wagon with DSG can get down to 5.0l/100km on country trips and even lower some times, regularly get over 1000km per tank and can take 5 people and plenty of luggage comfortably while still offering a decent level of acceleration. Try that in your Prius. Soem of the high level Merc, Audi and BMW twin turbo and turbo diesels are quicker than their petrol equivalents. For a sports or performance car most likely petrol, but for a normal family sedan, 4wd or SUV, ute etc – diesel. See diesels just won the Dakar again!! Mine was the same price as the petrol equivalanet model! On the flip side has any driven the new BMW 123D sports coupe?, they say it is a cut price 135i..

    • Simon

      David I have the same car. It is a very likeable car however I’m tired of it’s lethargy from standstill.

  • David

    I can’t comment on the technical pros and cons. I’ve driven cars for almost 40 years, all of them petrol engined.

    Currently looking at buying a new car and last week my wife and I went for a lengthy run in one of the new Hyundai R 2.2 Santa Fe diesels. Wow! The first diesel I’ve ever driven and I am impressed. Quiet once on the move and what a push in the back if you floor it. On top of frugal economy it has sold us.

    • Fog Badger

      David, it’s a great engine.

      Took the kids for a test drive last weekend. Very impressed. Plenty of grunt in the low and mid-range and superb 6-speed auto.

    • John Cadogan

      David, I wrote the story you commented on above. Ed Ordynski (multiple Australian rally champ) and I recently drove a Santa Fe R in the Global Green Challenge from Darwin to Sydney and achieved 5.2 L/100km in it. (This was extreme economy driving; not pleasant – 70km/h ish on the highway for a week with the air off and the windows up. But it shows you what can be achieved.) Car was pretty darn comfortable. And it has a five-star safety rating. And it goes hard if you nudge it. A good thing, in my opinion – great all-rounder. John Cadogan.

  • spellbound

    Way to go , dont worry diesel buffs when they finally shove it into the terra and the crummer , it will become an ozzie invention and the savour of our nation .

    Of course then it will be reliable , cheap to repair and fixable at every country garage , cause its australias own .

    Love the diesel , no need for a V8 on unleaded

  • Simon

    2 years with a TDI Passat.
    Most notable is how infrequently I visit servos these days. It’s almost half as often as I used to.
    So am I happy with it? On the highway, absolutely! Around town, it’s only advantage is it’s frugal fuel use. Acceleration from standstill is lethargic. I am actually contemplating trading in for the new GTI as I’m craving a driver’s car. The Passat is well built, comfortable and looks great. I like it a lot but I wouldn’t say I love it. This is despite the fact it is faster than most passenger TDIs currently on the market and handles above average for normal suspension.
    Horses for courses.
    Would I buy a diesel again? When VW put the Blue Sport on sale here – you bet!
    If I could afford a 330D it would be a no-brainer. Diesel all the way.

  • pugphile

    Only go for a fill up every 2nd week nowadays, average 450 k\’s a week.
    Just did a Melb-Myrtleford-Beechworth-Myrtleford-Melbourne-Cranbourne-Melbourne and I still have 170k\’s to empty on the trip computer on the same tank.
    Definitely buy a diesel again !!

  • Stevo the Devo

    Many of us remember the Gemini diesel – the memory of that POS has slowed the uptake of diesels in this country. Thankfully they have come a long way since the bad old days and are now making sense.

    • Vince

      No we don’t.

      Guess Audi/Volkswagon drivers and the millions of recent immigrants since that time, have no memory of it.

    • Frenchie

      The Gemini was a different era of diesel. Noisy, slow off the mark but the engine went forever.

      • Hung Low

        Mazda had a 626 Diesel back then as well, are we just going full circle again?

    • Robin Graves

      The Gemini Diesel was much better than the 4cyl Commodore.

  • stoney!

    if vw bought out their famous twin charging on say a 1.6 and 2.0 diesel in the golf i’d be all for it. However i’m not a fan of turbo lag so i’ll stick with the golf tsi

    • Reckless1

      The Amarok will have a twin turbo 2.0 diesel

      And a 2.0 Petrol twincharged would be insanely good, even a 1.6 would be stunning.

  • Don

    I totally agree with Snowman as I did the similer. I have a 96 VS Commodore and also a 2005 Corolla Conquest. The Corolla was traded on a i30 diesel. If I went away on country or interstate drives I used to take the Commodore as the Corolla was too frustrating to drive, uncomfortable, gutless and unecconomical for any trips more than half an hour or so. The Corolla was never less than 10.2L/100kms. Commodore best of 9L/100kms and 15-17L/100kms around town. The i30 is 8L/100kms in the city or 5.6L/100kms country. The i30 is also comfortable and I have never once wanted to change seat position because I was uncomfortable. The other great plus is the torque which has a flat curve from 1800rpm to around 3000rpm and matched with a really good auto is a pleasure to drive.

  • Gibbo

    That video review on the TT TDI was good! Was that filmed on the Pacific Highway near the Hawkesbury River? – good stretch of road that – more exciting than the F3! Wouldn’t have a diesel sprots car, but would have a diesel 4WD. Dont mind turbo diesels, enjoy listening to the turbo spool while im driving, but love the growl of a petrol V8 more!

  • buzzliteyear

    Can current diesel owners who have accumulated almost 100,000km please give comments and feedback on servicing and repairs costs related to diesel vehicles. There’s a lot of praise for brand new diesels but I want to hear from those who have enough km’s under their belt to truly express the overall cost of running a diesel vehicle.

    I’m currently looking at buying an SUV and was sold on the Santa Fe diesel over the Ford Territory for fuel efficiency alone.

    However, when I looked at the service schedule, the routine service costs were over $500 a shot, and the most painful part was the 100,000km service cost of almost $1,000 to replace the timing chain.

    So running the figures, any cost advantage from fuel efficiency alone are almost evaporated by service costs. And that’s not including any repair bills for engine problems during course of ownership.

    Hence my question, are service and repair costs greater for a diesel engine than a petrol engine?

    • Callous Aussie

      My 10,00o k services on my Navara were around $180.00 (at nissan). The 50 k is the first major was quoted by nissan as approx $800.00. I have since spoken to ultatune and they quoted $550.00 to $600.00. The only real difference I can see is the cost of the particle filter.

      Based on that ,had I gone elsewhere or the minor services I suspect they would have been around the $140.00 – $150.00 mark. My partners first service on here KIA petrol was $170.00 so there is little difference based on that.

      • Tinman

        The difference between servicing your Navara at Nissan and elsewhere,is that at Nissan you’re not paying them to learn how to service a Navara.

        • Callous Aussie

          So then they shouldn’t be so much dearer based on that. The dealers are rip offs. Labour is charged at $107.00 per hour. That’s extortion.

          • The Real Car Fanatic

            Dealers are rippofs, my first Golf service was 345 bucks, my second at the diesel place down the road was 175 bucks and he gave me a full rundown of what he did, fully costed. The Dealer listed what was done but didn’t individualise everything. Hell the 85 dollar oil at the dealer was only 72 at the Diesel mechanics. Truth is Dealers make so little on cars these days because the public always want more for less, that they have to charge a bomb for the service to keep in business.

          • freddo

            Should be $20 p/h like what you earn??? ppffft

            How do you think they afford all the equipment to service hi-tech cars, pay/train the tech’s, and service advisors? Money tree?

    • Tinman

      Santa Fe R service intervals are 15000km, so there is no 100000km service.
      Timing chains are for the life of the engine as long as correct lubricants are used.
      You really need to find a different source of information.

  • Callous Aussie

    I drive a 2.5 ltr Navara and despite the numerous issues I have had with the brand it wouldn’t deter my one bit from making sure our next passenger car is a diesel. They are simply more effortless than petrol engines. Yes diesel is dearer up here but they are typically far more effficient . Driven hard a diesel will further grow the efficiency gap on a petrol car droven the same way. City driving seems to blow the economy of small petrol engines out the window. My navara uses 12 litres per 100k’s around town and I drive a heavy right foot and cart all my work equipment .

    Not to mention that it will tow 3,000 kg and weighs 2,000 kg on its own. Not bad for 2.5 ltrs.

    All that bottom end torque means you just don’t need to rev the guts out of them like a petrol car to get the best out of them. My 0-100 kph time wouldn’t be any better taking it to the redline (5,500 rpm) than it is when I change at 3,000 rpm.

    Andrew is right about emissions as even modern diesel have a sulphur output. Though I suspect as we head further down the path of bio diesel this will become redundant so they may indeed then be better than a petrol for the environment.

    At the end of the day, the ability to go 1000- 1100 k’s up the highway is the real clincher for me living in far nth Queensland. The Hyundai i30 is probably running as favourite for me currently but the Cerato is rumour to have a 6 speed auto / diesel combo later this year so it may get the nod due to its massive boot.

  • Callous Aussie

    The mechanic at Nissan reckons the diesel engines are built stronger than petrol engines to cope with the torque.

    • ryan

      It’s to cope with higher compression ratio not the torque.

      • dan

        I hate them. I had a Hilux and quickly got sick of standing in diesel muck around the bowsers and getting the stincky rubbish on my hands.
        The torque is good but im much happier with my current v6 petrol Lux as its a lot quieter, cheaper to service and the power delivery is better.

        • Callous Aussie

          Now go tow 3 tonne with it and you will find where it fails. I have spoken to owners of the Hilux V6, and Navara V6 and as soon as you load them up the fuel consumption soars.

          Dan the fuel om your hands comment makes me think you should be driving something like and Astra convertible. Are you for real? I don’t have that problem at bowsers so how come you do? Besides most have paper towel at the pumps these days. Easy fixed.

          • Tomas79

            Exactly, I haven’t come across a single dirty diesel nosel yet either…
            And if i did, it wouldn’t be enough of an issue for me, to give up on diesel….

            And yeah, diesel absolutely shines in terms of fuel economy once a vehicle is fully laden, or travelling offroad…

          • dan

            Got a fuel card so I couldn’t care less about costs. Its much easier to rock up and fill up, rather than wait for the one or two bowsers service station have these days.
            I dont like the smell of diesel as it is much stronger than petrol. Mrs wont even drive it if it needed to be filled and has talked a couple of her frinds out of buying diesel cars for the same reason.
            Have towed a tandem with a car on it several times and to tell you the truth the diesel is slightly better, however I dont tow all the time like most people so I couldnt care less.
            Thats just my opinion…dont take it to heart Callous Aussie.

          • Tomas79

            Actully that was another point i was going to bring up…
            Actully even though the service station ussually has only 2 diesel pumps, there never is actully any wait…
            You ussually just drive up, and refuel, while the petrol and lpg powered cars line up….

            Also thanks to the high flow diesel pumps, it doesn’t take too long to put in $60 worth of diesel …

            Dan, dont know how old the diesel hilux was, but maybe you should check out some of the more modern diesels, might change your perception!!

          • The Real Car Fanatic

            Dan is a Metrosexual

          • Will

            Agreed CA.

      • Callous Aussie

        Actually it’s both.

      • Fog Badger

        Wouldn’t the torque twist the engine around?! ;-)

  • F1 Addict

    Yes I’d buy a diesel. I’ve road tested the diesel Focus while on holiday in Tasmania, taken a BMW 320d for a half-hour burl and had a Cruze diesel for a weekend in Melbourne. I think that while the commonly shared problem of turbo-lag off the line can take some getting used to and the requirement to wear gloves whenever you refuel is inconvenient I’d say the pro’s outweigh the cons. The cars are ultra-quiet at cruising speed, very fuel-efficient, climb hills with freakish ease and can overtake anything in the blink of an eye. In terms of image – how can you argue with the dominance of diesel engines at Le Mans. Also, given any car I’d buy I’d be using to drive on Australia’s over-policed roads I’d find the extra acceleration from the torques alot more useful than the top speed brought on by excess power.

  • Peter

    I’ve driven the volvo D5 which is a sweet (but noisy) engine. I do low clicks, though, around 12,000km pa mainly around town so diesel wouldnt work for me, with DPF and all. I also love the V8 throb which I would find hard to live without. That said, if I was doing 30,000kms per annum, buying a diesel would be a no-brainer – I’d live without the sound, or I’d record it and play it on the stereo.

  • Don

    There seems to be other slight untruths in the original article and some of the replies.
    1) A diesel will never out accelerate a petrol. With current transmissions this may well be true and the fact that in most cases the diesel variant of a vehicle has a smaller in capacity engine. As the rev band is generally narrower with a diesel it benefits from more gearbox ratios and once we have reliable CVT transmissions which can take the diesel engines torque then I think that a diesel would out accelerate an equivalent petrol.
    2) Because a petrol engine has to rev to get its torque this makes for a lot of firings and fuel use for a given vehicle speed when the vehicle is under load. There are some high torque low reving petrol engines used in commercial applications mostly but not very many.
    3) Diesel is more complicated. Take the fuel system. A petrol engine (nowadays) has a high pressure pump, fuel filter, injectors and airflow measurement system. A diesel engine has a high pressure pump, fuel filter, injectors and fuel management system which may or may not include a throttle body. Ignition system – a petrol engine has a fairly complex system these days and is not needed on a diesel. Turbo charger – most petrols do not have one at the moment nor a supercharger. Most diesels have a turbocharger with possibly an intercooler. In the future if you check out the trend for petrol engines, they will have either a supercharger or turbocharger or both plus direct fuel injection which some petrol engines already have (see the VW TFSI engine). There is also development for petrol engines which are compression ignition – yes same system as a diesel.
    4) Reliability The general consensus within the industry is that a diesel has three times the life of a petrol given the same general operating conditions. Most have a chain to drive the camshaft/s eg i30 and does not need to be replaced every 100k like the belt on a lot of petrol engines.

    • Tony

      I dont know that this a correct statement as the euro makers have used diesel for the past few years to race and win at LeMans and if you look at the transmission specs for most of the diesel racers they only use a 5 speed gearbox. Because of the higher torque characteristics of the Diesel the cars are higher geared and need less gear changes per lap and therefore use less fuel than a petrol so have fewer fuel stops

  • Karl

    I’d love to switch to diesel!
    As long as its Australian made and RWD. If Ford put one into a Falcon, i’ll gladly change colours.
    I think that Holden has made a big mistake by not developing a diesel for the commodore, considering the GM parts bin has some ideal diesels.
    Diesel offers all the dynamics Australians like, bags of torque at low revs,exceptional longevity plus you’ll find diesel servos anywhere in Australia.
    All with 7L per/100 economy or better.

    • Tinman

      Karl, makes you wonder how many sales Commodore and Falcon have lost by not having CRDi technology. It’s ideal for high kilometre fleet applications.
      Maybe they thought there wasn’t a business case for it.
      Although I would never say never.

    • Shak

      The reason Holden has officially given for not having a diesel in the Commodore is because they havent secured an export line to a european country yet. They have stated time and time again that for the Commdore to have a diesel they need a viable business case for the european market. When that happens they will definetley have one.

  • Realcars

    FA

  • HyundaiSmoke

    I know here in the US, after the Healthcare Bill in the House gets signed by The Obama the Climate Change Bill is Next. The Climate bill should pass by Memorial Day.

    In the Climate bill there is a provision for all new Heavy Duty Trucks to run on Natural Gas. A lot of legislators like it, Trucking Companies Like it, etc…. Whne a Operator buys a new Tractor, it will be equipped with a Natural gas Powertrain. They estimate that it would take 10 years as Operators buy new Tractors to replace about 90% of the total US Fleet. That would free up 4 Billion Gallons of Diesel per day.

    Since you guys down under use our Trucks, you guys will probably get NGV trucks as well. That will free more diesel to use in cars and Light Duty Trucks.

    • Callous Aussie

      There have been test trucks and buses running LPG here for the past couple of years in Australia.

    • The Oracle

      A lot of the large buses in Sydney run on CNG, never seen an LPG bus only diesel and CNG.

      • Callous Aussie

        I tried to link you but the post went straight to moderation. Google LPG bus trial. There numerous countries including Australia doing it.

        • The Oracle

          Thanks for that, though I note that the only large bus trial I could find a reference to was in Darwin in 2000. There were otherreferences to Ford Transit and Nissan Civilian buses running on LPG, I assume that they were petrol engines converted, though it wasn’t clear on that. As I said, large buses running on CNG are common in Sydney. They seem to be a variety of brands including Mercedes Volvo and MAN.

    • Robin Graves

      We’ve been using CNG for years in Aus. Its clean and cheap but does not have the same energy content as diesel, and as it is not refrigerated, its stored as a gas which takes up a lot of space. A lot of long haul trucks here use a diesel and CNG combination which seems to work very well.

    • Tinman

      No, ours still run on steam.

  • Tony M

    Stats I didn’t read were, what are the comparison times for overtaking at 80 to 120 kph between petrol and diesel and what is the price difference between 95 and 98 octane petrol and diesel? Most performance cars use high grade octane which is more if not the same price as diesel.
    I watched Top gear a while ago where they compared the overtaking time between a VW golf petrol and diesel. This was done on one of the motorways in England overtaking a truck doing 100kph. The diesel was faster by 1.5 seconds which showed it to be safer at overtaking.

  • sammo

    I was under the impression that Diesel engines were more durable than petrol engines, hence were cheaper to maintain.
    Peugeot say this about their HDI engines:

    “The nature of a diesel engine is to operate at much lower revs than a petrol engine, both for power and torque. Thus it doesn’t have to work as hard to get the maximum performance.”
    “Second, there are fewer mechanical parts needed. Spark plugs, ignition coil, distributor and plug wires are all elements of petrol engines that aren’t used in diesels. Similarly, the FAP particle filter is virtually maintenance free, with its first service required at only 210,000km.”
    “Finally, a diesel engine has a much lower exhaust temperature (approx. 450°C) than a petrol engine (approx. 1,000°C). This extends the life of the exhaust valves and the turbo charger.”

  • My Cars Called T-Rex

    Diesel is for trucks and buses not sports cars,Id have any of the other(petrol)cars mentioned way before an audi TT oiler.If diesels did start to sell in big numbers it would only drive up the price of diesel fuel.

  • The Oracle

    Regardless of how the vehicles drive, I just think the payback period for diesels better economy is in most cases way too long to justify the extra purchase price.
    I crunched some numbers and I used the manufacturers RRP for petrol and diesel versions of the same spec and the ADR fuel consumption figures. I worked on the assumption of 20,000km per year and petrol and diesel being the same price. I think these are valid assumptions as the average driven by all vehicles is about 15,000km annually and the prices for both fuels have been around $1.25/L lately, give or take a couple of cents.

    Here is what I calculated.
    Ford Mondeo Zetec Hatch Auto. Petrol $36990, 9.5L/100km. Diesel $39990, 7.3l/100km, payback period is 5.5 years
    Holden Cruze CDX auto. Petrol $25990, 7.5L/100km. Diesel $28990, 6.8L/100km, payback period is 9.7 years
    Hyundai i30 SX Manual. Petrol $19390, 7.2L/100km. Diesel $21890, 4.7L/100km. Payback period is 4 years
    Toyota Landcruiser VX auto. Petrol $87000, 14.5L/100km. Diesel $97000(!) 10.3L/100Km. Payback period is 9.5 years
    Volkswagen Golf Mark VI Comfortline manual. Petrol $30490, 6.2L/100km, diesel $33190 5.3L/100km. Payback period is 12 years.

    There are many other examples and some will be better and some worse, but in general, I think the dollars are still much in the favour of buying a petrol car. Particularly for business or if you have a novated lease or car allowance and you turn over the vehicles every 3-4 years. Of course, everyone thinks that as the global economy improves the price of diesel will rise faster than petrol. For every cent differential the case for diesel gets worse and if it gets back to the 20cents or more it was a couple of years ago, then diesel makes no economic sense at all as the payback is 15-20 years.

    Some points to note from these figures. The Hyundai i30, probably has the best case at the moment for diesel. The Golf, I just realised runs on 95RON ULP, but the payback for diesel would still be round 10 years. Finally, how can Toyota justify and extra $10K for the diesel in the Landcruiser?

    Diesel certainly has it advantages, but not everyone needs the torque to tow 3 tonnes, spends hours cruising the freeways or wants to drive a ute all day either. Most of us find petrol suits our needs and makes more sense for the hip pocket.

    • Karl

      The Oracle, while that is a fair point, you also need to consider a few other things.
      Diesel has a longer service life.
      Diesels can be run on biodiesel in future, which is about the same price as diesel currently. If petrol goes up(and you dont want to or cant convert your car to gas) your boned.
      All up, I think if the price of fuel goes hay wire, diesels and LPG compatibale cars should still be viable. Others might effectively be throw-aways.

      • The Oracle

        I understand what you are saying regarding service life, but I believe the average vehicle age in this country is about 10 years. (Please correct me if I’m wrong.) I believe that diesels often require more frequent servicing too.
        Most petrol cars are 10000-15,000km whereas diesels are usually 7500-10000km, but that may not be the current requirement. Do you agree?

        People generally don’t keep cars for 20 years and most company vehicles , including those with car allowance or a novation, change the car in 3-4 years, so there is no economic advantage with diesel. As regards to the price of fuel rising it is the difference in price between petrol and diesel that is the relevant point. If ULP goes to $2.00/L it still makes more sense than diesel at $2.20/L with the same original purchase prices as I used above. What is the real availability of biodiesel? Can you get it at many servos? Most news I have heard of it is stories of old hippies in ancient Hi-Ace vans collecting it from the local fish and chip shop. What is really happening with it and the broader use and availability?

        As regards the future price of fuel, if you have any idea, let me know and we can make a fortune.

        • Robin Graves

          My diesel has 15k service interval. Biodiesel here in WA is quite prevalent thru the Gull network (B20 or 20% blend) It meets the Australian Standard for diesel fuel but most manufacturers only allow B5 blend.

          Old diesels with mechanical fuel injection need a few mods to run straight chip fat. The fuel is too thick when cold so it needs a pre-heater to thin it out. The lighter duty diesels (like the Hiace) have a rotary fuel injection pump, which are less tolerant to chip fat than an inline-pump engine, such as old Mercedes 190D, Toyota 2H, Nissan SD33 or Musso. The rotary pumps have the whole governor and drive section lubricated by fuel where as the inlines are lubricated by engine oil, allowing sludge to build up in the rotaries.

          The whole cost thing I think is not the issue for me anyway, I like the low rev torque and the economy that goes along with it, not to mention longer range and fewer trips to the servo. I’ll happily pay $3k or so extra at purchase for a diesel car for the driving dynamic I prefer.

          • The Oracle

            Thanks Robin, that’s good information. I understand your comment about your preference and that’s fine, I have no argument on that, each to their own. I am happy with petrol, but I must admit now that after reading yours and others comments, I could be converted. When I am due for a new car next year, I may have a look at a good low mileage 2nd hand diesel with 12-18 months warranty left on it. Let someone else pay for the depreciation and I can then save at the bowser. When the time comes, I’ll check out the prices, see what’s available and do the sums again.

        • Golfschwein

          Oracle, you’ve spent a lot of time on this. Had I known you were starting out, I’d have called up with advice to put your calculator away.

          I’m not going to check your figures, as there’s little doubt they are correct. Anyone determined to buy a Golf diesel, like I did, or another eco warrior like a Prius resolutely stowed our calculators away at decision time. We know the figures. In my case, I liked the way the Golf drove so much, I was determined to buy one. The Golf’s gutsy, characterful, fun and drives between 850 and 1000 kilometres on a tank. It’s my way of using as little of the earth’s resources as possible, but it still affords me a giggle when it chugs up Greenmount at 1400rpm in sixth gear, clicking its fingers, with the cruise on 80.

          It’s not always about the maths, however excellent yours was.

          • The Oracle

            Well thanks Golfschwein, but it didn’t really take that long. It probably took more time to type it up, than I spent with the pen, paper and calculator.
            I understand your comments about enjoying the way it drives and plenty of others have said similar. I was just wishing to expand on a point made briefly in the article, regarding the overall costs. Most businesses would look at the total running cost including fuel, purchase price, servicing and depreciation and resale. I would be interested in some comments from anyone about the resale value of diesel vs petrol of the same vehicle. As I said above, I would be interested in looking at a good second hand diesel car next year.

            I agree with you that it is not always the maths. If it was, we would all be driving the smallest cheapest car we could. In my case, I have a certain amount of dollars I have to spend from my allowance each month and fuel is only one part of it, so in actual fact fuel economy is not a real concern for me. I estimated fuel consumption, cost and kms each year and factored it into my car budget.
            Enjoy your Golf, that may be one of the vehicle I would consider looking at.

        • Karl

          While there’s a small difference in servicing costs, I dont think that it would be enough to out weigh the fuel saving.
          With regard to biodiesel, we already know the cost of producing and selling it is about the same as diesel currently; so if diesel (or petrol go up), biodiesel will still be around $1.30L(in theory!)
          If thats the case, biodiesel will become a lot more wide spread.
          Also, the emissions aren’t as dangerous to human health, which would put some arguements to rest.
          With regards to holding on to the vehicle, while one person may not own it its entire life, it will still be driven by someone. So diesel might not pay off for everyone, it works for others. Or if your like me, I just like the dynamics they offer.
          You can’t go wrong if your buying used.

        • Callous Aussie

          For someone who claims to have a life outside these forums you just shattered any credibility you had there.

          Back on topic, the ability to go so much further on a tank of diesel is justification enough for me. time is money and spending it in service station s one of my least favourite ways to waste it.

          Add the tow ability of my vehicle and it’s done and dusted.

          • The Oracle

            Everyone else is able to offer an intelligent response. Only you would make such a childish comment. Your opinions of credibility are of no interest to me. If you are happy with your car, then congratulations. It’s horses for courses.

  • Devil’s Advocate

    Wonder how many people know that diesel is actually a combustion process and NOT a type of fuel… ;-)

    • Robin Graves

      Diesel is actually a German man’s surname, but they kind of all get blurred together. How many people refer to their petrol engine as an Otto cycle or know why some Eunos models had a Miller Cycle engine and what that means?

      • Devil’s Advocate

        Correct, Diesel is the surname of the man that invented the Diesel engine. Just like the “Otto” is the surname of the man who developed the first functional 4 stroke engine and the Miller cycle named after it’s inventor, Ralph Miller. However the Otto and Miller cycle have nothing to do with the type of fuel used, just like ‘diesel’! :-)

        Don’t forget many diesel engines also use the Otto cycle too, so that could be why people don’t refer to their petrol engine as an Otto engine as it covers a wider variety of engines that run on more than just ‘petrol’. There are also many ‘petrol’ engines that ‘diesel’, or ‘run-on’ as some people would know it as. You could even say that a Top Fuel dragster at the end of a run technically diesels as well because you get combustion without a spark!! ;-)

        What I would like to know is that if you decide to run your diesel engine on Jet-A1 or another alternative fuel (easy to do with minimal modification if at all depending on the alternative fuel use), does the name of the fuel used change to diesel and do you still call it a diesel engine now you are no longer using “diesel” in it?! Or put it another way, when you are flying one of those light planes with the Turbo diesel engines, when you go to fill it up do you then change the name of Jet-A1 to diesel?!

        At the end of the day, Diesel is still technically a combustion process and not a fuel as such. Basically it is a case of a type of ‘distillate of petroleum fuel oil’ being placed under a broader banner. You could say it is similar to most people calling a Sony or iRiver etc MP3 player an iPod! Cheers! :-)

        • Robin Graves

          I know what you mean, but most people just stick to the colloquial name. Its not very often you see diesel fuel being sold as ‘distillate’ anymore, and petrol is also called gasoline or a derivative of Benzene in other languages, which further complicates things!

          • Callous Aussie

            The man who developed the diesel engine got sick of towing santa around so looked for an alternative way to haul his fat ar$e.

            Jokes aside it was Rudolf Diesel that developed it.

  • png

    I just replaced my Golf GTI Mk V with a BMW 123d last year. My wife was shocked when she heard the clucking engine sound when I drove the new diesel car home. She was negative at first but changed after 2 months of driving as less visits to petrol station and easy to drive.

    I agreed that turbo petrol has good acceleration from start but cannot match in gear acceleration from turbo. diesel Power delivery in diesel is definitely smoother and instant and it can overtake and sudden hill climb anytime without any down shift or hard engine reving.

    The GTI required 98 RON and is costing me more to fill thank than the 123d. Even 91RON costs more than diesel sometime. I like to drive my car hard and usually managed about 500km in the GTI full tank where the 123d only needed refuel after 700km. My wife only does city driving and ahe managed to achieve 560km in the GTI and 800km in the 123d. I usually refuel about 50l each time for each car.

    I had drove other diesel car before and I personally had problems with the smell and made me dizzy sometime. I have no problem with the new diesel car. I had check that the servicing for a 120i and 123d are about the same.

    Both petrol and diesel engines are good. It comes down to personal taste and preference in the end. I do missed the high rev engine, frequent gear shifting and smooth engine sound from petrol car sometime.

  • Will

    Traded for a diesel and DSG some 20 months ago. Great machine both in the city and country.

  • MITCH

    My first diesel vehicle,Hyundai i30 so far a great buy, my only whinge is the foaming properties of diesel if you hope to fill-up at a bowser with a high-flow pump its like your filling up half your tank with bubbles.All so is there any differance between premium diesel being sold and the fuel at my local truck-stop

  • laurie

    My Mondeo TDCi only has 96Kw but heaps of torque 320Nm which may explain when I have my air-con on I don’t notice any r.p.m. loss or engine lag as I have with many petrol cars I have owned with similar kws

    laurie

  • http://www.vringer.com Rainman

    Looking at the original article, petrol outsells diesel at a rate of 10 to 1. so regardless of the marginal increase of toxicity of diesel fumes. petrol is still the pollution king. (aside from the fact that it takes more energy to refine petrol, giving a bigger carbon footprint to begin with)

    Also as far as the mess at the pump is concerned, the solution would be the introduction of separate pumps with “Dry Break” nozzles and the complementry fitting in the diesel cars filler throat, by the manufacturers.
    The servo’s will catch up with the technology if there’s a “buck” to be made.

    BTW.I drive a diesel engined vehicle that has 190kw of power and 700nm of torque.
    A lot of other road users are often surprised by its acceleration when they unwisely try to do a run up the rails in a merging left lane.

    Seems they dont like being dragged off by a 5 tonne truck !!!

  • Cupid Stunt

    “That means a diesel will never out-accelerate a petrol in an apples-for-apples shootout – even though it might make for a more effortless cruiser.”

    Sooo wrong so so wrong. Take at the look at the stats for a 3.0 litre BMW or Audi. absolutely trounces a 4.0 litre Falcon. 6.5secs to 100 for the Audi A6. So wrong CA

    • Jeremy

      Since when is a $100k BMW/Audi vs a $40k ford an “Apples-for-apples” comparison?

      Check accleration figures comparing a BMW 530i vs 530d. Holden Cruze 1.8 petrol vs Holden Cruze 2.0 diesel.

      • Cupid Stunt

        What’s finance got to do with the argument Jeremy. After all a 2.0 litre Audi A4 goes no better than a 2.0litre Mondeo, therefore finance does not come into it. It’s purely a diesel V’s petrol dispute. Glad to see you agreed with a 3.0 burning off the 4.0litre petrol AND returning 30-40% better consumption.

        • Jeremy

          If it’s purely a petrol vs diesel debate, then all factors apart from the engine should remain consistent.
          You’re talking about 0-100km/h acceleration times, but unless you put a Falcon against a 530d on the same track, at the same time (with similar ballast), then the comparison seems rather inconclusive to me.
          I’ve timed a stock EF 0-100km/h 8.6 seconds and 10.5 seconds on the same piece of track, same driver/passenger, same fuel load, different day.
          The 530i vs 530d and 335i vs 330d comparisons have been documented by many respectable motoring rags and seems that even without forced induction the petrol has the edge over the diesel from a standing start. Rolling accleration times are where the diesel shines.

    • Karl

      Apples for apples would mean with the same gear ratios!…….in which case the petrol would out accelerate a petrol.
      CA are completely correct.
      Diesels are generally fitted with a taller diff ratio.
      Also, I should point out that your comparing a TURBO diesel motor with a petrol, they aren’t really comparable in that sense.

  • Andrew

    Your points about a diesel not being able to out-acclerate a petrol. Gearing comes into it a lot, if you shift a diesel sooner to keep it in its torque band whilst the petrol can obviously out-rev the diesel so it stays in a gear for longer but the diesel should still win if its a modern turbo variant as the sheer extra torque and keeping it in its rev band should be enough. I’m probably wrong but thats my understanding of the basic science of it. The defecit that I see is that the diesel has to spend more time changing gears which may knock vital time off the acceleration run, is that really the determing factor? Of course diesels would probably have taller gearing too due to the lower revs involved but this should at the very least even the score in the acceleration run. Still dont get why diesels are slower then? :S

    • Cupid Stunt

      They’re not necessarily slower. Whilst your statement of revs etc may appear correct the power band width are fairly similar overall. Diesels make most of their grunt 1800 to 4000rpm, whereas your petrol goes roughly 3000 to 6500rpm. Admittedly the petrol revs 1500ish higher that may explain the difference in performance, with CVT’s that would not come into it either.
      My 3.0 litre diesel pulls from idle but better from 1000rpm and finishes at 4200rpm. The tune of the engine makes a huge difference. The wifes 2.7litre diesel A6 is quicker by 1 second to 100kmh than my vectra but driveability is way less in everyday terms. I almost prefer the vectras powerband which is much wider.

      • Callous Aussie

        The Jetta I drove had an initial lag, which I actually believe is done deliberately for durability. To ease the grunt on if you like. Once that minor delay is done with it would beat pretty much most petrol engines for acceleration in its class. It really is a decently quick car.

        Of course once you start getting into the hill climbing the diesel will murder the petrol.

  • http://caradvice Onepoppa

    Everybody else has had a say, so I might as well contribute my two cents worth.

    After lots of Km in Europe driving Citroen (Picasso and C5 wagon)and Renault(Scenic) I finally went diesel, swapping my much loved Volvo S70T (low blow turbo)for a Mercedes B180 CDI (ex-demo, which is how I could afford it). Yes, I sometimes miss the acceleration – but not often – it cruises at normal speeds – still have to watch for the cameras – but love the torque and the CVT box. The economy is great – it is funny that knowing that the car is so economical it becomes a challenge to drive it as economically as one can. 5.2 is usual on the frequent run to the coast.

    As to fuel price – it is great not to have to play the weekly price game that operates in Victoria – diesel remains constant through the week, so buy when you need it. Never had a problem at the pump – most Shell stations seem to have put diesel in instead of ULP 95, which causes a problem with the other car in the family.

  • http://www.caradvice.com Mcs for me

    I have an ’08 Renault Laguna diesel, our first diesel, & yeah it took some time to get used to the different power delivery as well as some turbo lag from a standstill. But this is so outweighed by the benefits, in my mind I doubt whether we would go back to petrol driven car.

    One of the things that people remark on when riding in the Laguna is how quietly it goes about its task, especially overtaking, it doesnt make the banshee noise of a petrol car, rather unobtrusively just gets on with it, so it actually seems to be slower & Iam comparing to our previous car which was a 3l V6 Laguna, against which the diesel is actually quicker.

    One final point, our car around town, Brisbane, will return without any effort 850ks to a tank, I also drove it from Perth to Brisbane in 3 days & regularly did 1150-1200kms to a tank.

    Maybe diesels arent for everybody, but they have changed so much in recent years, that it would be foolish to dismiss them for a perceived lack of power.

    Torque rules.

    Cheers

    Chris

  • trackdaze

    Little wonder diesel is rising in popularity, why would you want to buy a wooden chassis’d Camry 4 that uses as much fuel as a six and sounds like a pack a day emphasema patient when trying to access its tiny kw advantage over any contempory diesel?

    Day to day torque wins out.

    Before you start on the “but they cost allot more rubbish” check out the resales on diesels earn back every extra cent and then some.

  • Rainman

    Enjoying the trains of thought on this subject.
    I think that if “diesel” was sold at a lower price,(which it should by rights) eg 80cpl then we all would not hesitate to buy diesel engined cars. I also think that the power debate is pointless as the heavier a vehicle gets the more likely it would operate better as a diesel powered vehicle. Thats why you dont see petrol engined trucks or diesel powered motorbikes (ok there was some old Russian diesel bikes but they dont count) Motor cars are at the crossroad of this debate, so it all comes down to application. What are your expectations and what do you want to achieve? Sacrificing some initial oomph for greater fuel economy and better rolling acceleration is something people are willing try.
    Oh. Dont ever use “jet A1″ as a substitute for diesel, its more akin to Kerosine and has too high a combustion temperature for Diesel application and also doesnt have enough lubricity (oilyness)to do the job. Also for the sake of your motors longetivety always buy your diesel at a refinery branded servo eg Shell BP Caltex etc. as some shonkyness can go on with the fuels supplied to alternative sellers.
    (BTW I have refinery/blending industry experience)

  • Sean

    I have had my diesel car for six years and my last car was a v6 petrol manuel 4wd and it felt like driving a 2 stroke the diesel 4wds i had was diesel and it was alot better to drive then a petrol manual and i never had a clutch problem the petrol i had alot of clutch problems but if i had a teenager for there first car i would put them into a diesel any day and i would not by another diesel again and the best petrol manaul to drive was a gq nissan patrol with engine breaking the v6 petrol manaul had next to no engine breaking and i drove it down the mountain roads and it would be reaving at 4500 rpm to hold it for engine breaking my current diesel will hold it at 1800 rpm on mountain roads going down engine breaking with an automatic transmission and thats with a 3.0 litre turbo intercooler diesel and it has a top speed about 160 km/h and i get around 8 litres per 100 km of normal driving and diesel can be noisy when cold as they warm up you notice it very much and i do know because i have had 3 diesel 4wds the petrol v6 was noisy when cold as it warm up it wasn’t noticeable but with diesel engines make shore they put in diesel engine oil they put petrol engine oil and it used it like i had to top it up and you don’t have to worry about spark plugs problems

  • Frank

    At the end of the day diesel engines require less fuel to operate than petrol. That unto itself is a big bonus for being pro-diesel vs. petrol. Other reasons as mentioned above such as less frequent engine service requirements makes diesel a good option most certainly over hybrids.

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