Toyota & Honda disagree on sports cars
October 22, 2009 by Alborz Fallah
It’s always interesting when two car companies disagree with each other, but it’s even more interesting when it’s Toyota and Honda, Japan’s biggest manufacturers.
Whilst Toyota has been stealing the limelight with its gorgeous new Lexus LFA, a two-seater supercar that’s powered by an incredible 4.8-litre V10 engine, Honda seems to think that’s old fashioned technology.
The LFA can reach 325 km per hour and do the 0-100 kph in just 3.7 seconds. According to Toyota’s new boss, Akio Toyoda (great grandson of the company’s founder), cars like the LFA are critical for cars to remain a product that consumers can get excited about, and we couldn’t agree more.
“It’s our mission as automakers to offer cars that possess the ‘fun’ spirit that should be at the base of any car,” Toyota President Akio Toyoda said.
Honda on the other hand thinks the LFA is a bit old-fashioned. Honda boss Takanobu Ito says the future of cars must now be primarily about clean, sustainable cars, and sports cars are no exception.
“Sure, there are folks who like that ‘vroom’ of the engine out of nostalgia,” Ito told Reuters earlier this month. “But those people are stuck in the past.”
Honda, which is best known in the supercar world for the legendary Honda NSX, cancelled the model’s revival project last year amid the global financial crisis. The planned NSX was rather similar to the LFA, making use of a V10 engine. According to Ito “the era of V10 engines is gone”.
Of course Honda doesn’t think sports cars are unnecessary, quite the contrary, Ito believes the next generation Honda sports could look like: a zero-emission fuel-cell car like Honda’s FCX Clarity.
“It’s light because it’s not weighed down by a ton of batteries, when you weigh a car down like that, it undermines the characteristics of a sports car. But if you have a light car like the FCX Clarity that’s powered by a motor, you get maximum torque from a zero start and acceleration is incredible. In a way, that’s a sports car.” Ito said, referring to Tesla Motors.
Is the V10 era over? We certainly don’t think so, what are your thoughts on the future of Honda sports cars?
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Slow news day?
I read about the lexus and I think, another very fast car with a massive petrol engine … The Honda concept sounds exciting, new and innovative … Perhaps such cars could have even more rapid acceleration than a petrol car, if freed from the weight of batteries …
How conservative have Toyota and Mazda proven this year with regard to innovation in drivetrains and fuel efficiency …
I don’t understand what you are getting at Slats with that last comment. How is this ‘conservative’ approach that Toyota and Mazda are supposedly doing different to just about any other manufacturer this year? Why only single out those two? Or do you just want to get a bit of brand bashing in there? ;-)
think the point he is making is that they are conservative out of the janpanese brands which generally…. with a lot of things not just cars…. push the envelope and develop cars and technology in them a lot quicker! it is a fair point IMO
Mazda more conservative and lacking innovation compared to a lot of the other Japanese manufacturers etc? What the… What do you call the Rotary engine as well as their hydrogen developments/research? Not to mention being one of the first passenger cars in Australia to use AdBlue exhaust catalyst for diesel engines. Then there is the world first nanocatalyst technology that Mazda now use that reduces CO2 emissions whilst also reducing the amount of precious metals used in a catalytic converter by about 70%. Mazda, along with the VW/Audi group, were one of the first mainstream adopters of the petrol direct injection/turbo charged engine. Even now you can still pretty much count on one hand how many other manufacturers have one. Gee, I would hate to see what an innovative, non-conservative company does!
I thought Mazda was renowned for being one of the more innovative/quirky Japanese companies out there. That was part of the reason why they nearly went belly up in the 80s/90s. They tried to do too much!
I know there are plenty more ‘innovations’ like the more environmentally friendly production methods etc, but I will now mention one thing that should prove that Mazda are not one of the more conservative Japanese manufacturers. Love it or loathe it, you wouldn’t call Mazda’s current design theme conservative! :-) :-)
LOL: Anti spam – Mazda!!
At $400K USD? FLOP
I never really thought the NSX was “legendary”, it’s performance never really matched its looks imo.
The V10 (and by extension the V8, V12 etc) are certainly not dead. I personally don’t see the point of making environmental friendliness a priority in these high-end supercars. The fact that they’re sold in such low volumes compared to mainstream cars, and are generally driven far less often by their owners, makes the impact they have on the environment negligible, no matter how many cylinders they have.
Its performance wasn’t special on paper but you take one for a ’spirited’ drive and begin to understand why it is legendary. The sound of the engine behind you really sticks with you and makes you want more. For the money at the time, it was a great car.
The NSX was never legendary amongst the public, but among engineers, it was god, complete and utter genius, it revolutionised manufacturing techniques, especially the use of aluminium components in the suspension.
Most of the supercar manufacturers only got around to using a fully aluminium design in the suspension 10 years after the NSX was released.
The performance DID match its looks though, all without the bajillion horses we get in cars these days.
Though what you just said then about making environmentally friendly supercars is madness, its just image, nothing else. But who cares about image, if I had the money to buy a supercar, I’d preferrably want as many cylinders as possible.
Sounds as though that Honda are just a bit annoyed at the fact that Toyota still has the cash to put out a fast V10 sports car and they couldn’t (axed NSX). So they try to make it sound as though this type of car isn’t so necessary in the world. Which I too disagree with.
Honda is correct. The future of motoring is not in V10 engines. Make a hybrid or something that goes just a hard and fast and then I will be impressed. (see BMW )
I agree with Honda. Think of all those futuristic movies with flying cars and what not, none of them sound like they have massive v8/10/12 engines in them. In fact they sound more like they have an electric engine with their soft buzzing and whizzing sound. This is the future and since petrol WILL run out, it’s time for big car manufacturers to start R&D on such vehicles instead of wasting time and money developing these massive engines.
I find it quite strange that Lotus use Toyota sourced engines in their ’supercars’ which are arguably the most fun cars to drive, and yet Toyota still believe for a car to be fun it needs a massive v10 engine in it?
Is Honda completely forgetting Toyota just previewed the FT86 with a 2.0 4-cyl engine which ironically fits the bill exactly what Honda is trying to describe as sports cars for the future. This really is a case of jealousy.
I don’t think you understood what Honda is saying.
honda are just plain jealous because they dont have the money to produce a v10 supercar! GO TOYOTA STICK IT UP HONDA!
yes! come one. i hope this little competition fued thing they got going will push them to make super awesome cars
I don’t feel that Honda will be drawn in to that type of competition.Honda has always been more savvy in business than toyota.Can you imagine the vast amount of millions invested in the LF-A by toyota only too produce 500 cars and make every one of them a financial loss!
I would love to see Honda build a super car but it ain’t going to happen anytime soon.
Anyway,Honda is not a sports car company like Ferrari or Porsche
Bugatti did the same thing, no one bitched about that.
But Bugatti have heratige and class (unlike Toyota)
and Toyota have racing history, Lemans, F1, rallying, Nascar etc etc, so alot of the development would have come from the racing history.
HONDA MORE SAVVY THAN TOYOTA! WHO ARE YOU TRYING TO KID! honda australia are going backwards at a great rate of knots as well as japan they simply dont have the money there’s no savvy in that!
I do hope that Honda make awesome cars, but no one is going to bag them if they make a V10,i also have nothing against them making a superhydrogencar, but there is no need to slander the great V10 layout just because some jap doesnt want to pay the R&D costs for it.
If Hondas idea of a modern sports car is the FCX clarity then they really are the new Toyota. Sounds like sour grapes to me, nothing on Hondas sports car horizon as far as I can see
Neither of them can make fast supercars.
Look at their F1 (non)results for proof.
Honda cars only went Fast when they were no longer Hondas……..
If anyone has read a review of the Tesla coupe it’s an incredible sports car…only its not legal under australian road rules.
Meant Tesla…
Reckless1
You dont think the results of the F1 competition is not affected by personnel?
Clearly, yes Toyota’s stubbornness affects their decision to spend x amount of dollars on certain aspects of racing. They spend a truck load more so than the rest, but you have to see the break down of that cost and you will see that a BIG chunk is for retrieval of race data and study to implement on everyday application.
Ferrari, Braun, Red Bull etc… they spend all they can on their cars for the sake of outright performance, which translate to wins, which benefits their image.
I think Toyota, and there is a lot of evidence of that, have entered the competition to help them produce supercar technology… and then reverse engineer for affordable use.
Ferrari and those companies have technology that WILL never be implemented to “everday” affordable application, because all their cars are for the RICH enthusiast who represent 1% of the total market.
So I wouldnt diss Honda, Toyota or other “everyday, mass” producers.. Because I can tell you honestly that they enter the competition for race data that benefits their mass produced cars. Basically the competition is a BIG “testing” evaluation ground for them.
And Honda, Toyota have shown they had success in motorsports in the past.
Ferrari and all the other marketing/pure racing teams are in it for the advertising $$$. Honda/Toyota too, but as stated above, have other agendas.
What about Renault then? They are ‘everyday, mass producers’ but still came up with a winning car. And you could argue that Mercedes and BMW are just as mass market at the rest, and they were still sucessful.
Ferrari is a different situation altogether. In the beginning, the road cars were only a way for Enzo to make money for the racing program. The F1 team is still the core of Ferrari, the road cars are periphary.
BAHAHAHAHA Honda’s just covering up the fact that they pulled out of racing and discontinued the new NSX!!!
The era of V10’s isn’t gone, its not like we’re ALL driving around in them, so its hardly having an environmental impact for goodness sake!
Interesting take… I don’t think it is necessarily ’sour grapes’ on Honda’s part though, even if there is a degree of ‘upholding corporate PR’ in there. Truth is, innovation should come from the top and filter down. Sportscars, like luxury cars should be embodying principles of sustainable car design. While I personally hope we never see the end of V8/10/12 engines and their heritage and exhaust note, truth is, at this level there is real opportunity to change the way ‘performance’ is achieved. an electic city-car is great, but an electric sportscar, in the style of Audi’s e-tron (for example) actually has the ability to change our perception of ‘bigger engine = performance’ and in the end, do more for moving car design forward than the smart / Prius will combined.
There’s arguments on both sides, and I’m far from picking one… I guess I can just see where Honda is angling here, by saying that now is the time that designers / engineers / manufacturers should really be looking to re-shape the industry and given the money available ‘at the top’, it’s a prime opportunity.
(And just quietly, I’d recommend a quick browse of wikipedia to whoever said that Honda and Toyota had no racing pedigree…. especially when it comes to Honda and F1).
A slight case of sour grapes, Honda?