their lines are similar like most cars these days.

both will have their place in the ford s/room.

but for me the falcons the go

LWB Mondeo does look good to me. I prefer RWD tho (have owned both) so will stick with Falcon. If Orion is as good as I think it will be, I’ll be getting one (FPV `phoon)

ok so you want to discredit my 02 mod falcon on gas getting 700k’s a tank now too. i think the official figures for it were 585k’s per tank.

heres one for you….
so the “official” falcon fuel figures put it at 685L out of a tank and that includes a mix/average of city cycle thrown in. so tell me how you figure the falcon wont better that consumption when put solely on a hwy cycle.

mate and i think the quality difference is way too over rated and definately not to the tune to what you say it is. i have never had problems with my falcons like you have had none with your toyotas so does that mean ford build the best too? NO
even if i blew the motor in my falcon tomorrow (as if that would happen) i would still buy another falcon the next day.
why? because they have been good to me like toyotas have been good to you, and i also believe the quality isnt that much better elsewhere. and on top of that the falcon offers a vehicle to me that holden nor toyota can deliver. and on top again they deliver the feel of comfort, and a vehicle that just generally appeals to me and feels right.

oh yeah and never trust what dealerships tell you they get it out of a hand book dont forget

The point is a price of a vehicle is apart of the total value/package you get…
The reality is that the money holden asks for in the caprice is great value, wheather you like it or not!
back in 2003 wheels tested a BA fairmont 4.0 against the BMW 5 6cyl and MERC E class 6cyl…
The Ford was obviously not a better package overall, but the BMW and MERC were not, i repeat were not…worth $40,000 extra, the point is if you spent that extra money on the fairmont it would be a better car than either the BM or MERC, ok? understand the relevance of purchase price vers the total vehicle package yet?
When Holden advertises the caprice to Mercs and BMWs models its saying for HALF THE PRICE the caprice is COMPETITIVE as an overall package, which it is…!

Also Ford or Europe and now here in AUS are gaining a repuation for producing vehicles that has some of the best handling dynamics in their classes! and matcing Toyotas quality, in Europe toyota isn’t as well regarded as it is here or in the US…and if you deny this, you certainly have your head jamed far up Toyotas butt hole. Start reseaching some info about the auto industry overall…
Ford in America is producing some of the saftest passnenger cars on the market! as well as the reliability aspect is catching Toyotas…

The reality is the Aurion/camry STILL CANNOT out handle the bigger heavier RWD commo or falc!! in any trim or model…

Explain that one??

Toyota worldwide does not offer any sort of affordable, RWD platform, V8 models…
They offer FWD vehicles that are reliable and safe, devoid of any emotion or enjoyable driving aspects…

As i have said a million times if Toyota can add handling and styling into its mix…I’d buy one!

Now, as for handling dynamics and stability controls systems…
If a vehicles dynamics are tuned well to begin with, the limit at which you would have to reach in order to trigger the ESC device would never be reached!
It’s been mentioned countless times in vehicle reviews that a system that reacts too abruptly or cuts in too early can actually catch drivers off guard…

These devices cut in when required in an emergency, not the other way around, they shouldnt be used to make up for sloppy fundamental vehicle dynamics, simple!
spin this which ever way you like…the fact remains…

1. I took a little time out of my day yesterday and spoke to the 3 people that i know who own VX/VY/VZ Commodores because i don’t know anyone with a VE. The first i spoke to are my parents neighbours (Mick) and he currently has a VX. Infact, i have know Mick since i was a kid and he has never had anything but Commodores and stated 650km is about the limit for him.

Secondly, i rang my brother-inlaw’s parents who also have a VX and stated he averages ‘give or take’ about the same while the third person was actually my boss (last night at work) who has a VZ on salary sacrifice/lease. Co-incidently, his name is also Mick and he admitted that the very best he has achieved to date(and he was happy with it) was 670km’s.

Now, i just rang Anderson’s Auto City this morning here in Gladstone who are the local Holden Dealership and they agreed that 650km’s pretty much sounds about right – those words said. Now… i originally stated (based on the VT) 600-650km’s but after my liitle research frenzy it came in at 650km on average which means my 2 4cyl Camry’s are bettering the Commodores by about 150km’s which corresponds to that of my experiances and those recently published as i mentioned earlier.

With regards to your father’s EF Falcon – what an absolute load of croak and i’ll tell you why. A close Navy buddy of mine a few years ago had a very nice maroon ’96 EF Futura and travelled from Perth to Melbourne on posting and then about 2 years later from Melbourne back to Perth (also on posting) and claimed he only ever achieved just over 600km’s per tank. Now, that is travelling across the Nullobour which would have to be Australia’s straightest, unchallenging roads of all and his car was fitted with Cruise Control. You claim 750km per tank by the same model car and made referance that your ‘ole man has a heavy foot. How remarkably differant the two results differ.

I’ll finish with referance to the Aurion. The old 3.0 V6 used in the Camry was one of Toyota’s aging designes (despite the fact that it was very refined and smooth)that exhibited no variable timing of any sort while mated to an aged 4 speed tranny. The Aurion however utilises one of Toyota’s newest designed engines of which exhibits variable timing both the inlet and exhaust while mated to a very late generation 6 speed box. Another word’s – completely differant gneration drivetrains.

1. I have not stated on one single occassion that Toyota or Lexus engineer the best handling platforms whether FWD or RWD. All of the examples i listed (of which i forgot to mention the Supra) are renouned for thier driving dynamics regardless wether they are the best in thier particular market or not. Ford or GM most certainly do not engineer the best handling vehicles either but rather this is still dominated by such marques as BMW, Mercedez Benz, Audi and better still – exotics like Ferrari, Lamabo’s etc.

Regardless, Lexus with the ‘IS’ series has been able to come very close to that of BMW of which is an achievement not to be couched at by any means while the Supra and Soaer were fantastic vehicles in there time. Infact, Lexus has been so competitive with the IS250/350 with regards to it’s driver involvement that BMW has had to ‘wake up and take note’.

… explain how that is not credable !!

2. Ford and Holden not compared against Lexus – fundamentally you are correct on the matter but as i so rightfully indicated earlier… Holden is the company so desperately trying to elevate it’s stance and compare the new VE range against marque brands and if that’s how they intend to pass themselves then that’s exactly how they will be judged upon and one would have to be stupid to expect people not to. They are Holdens claims… not mine or yours or most others – Holdens (and of coarse those dimwits who so stupidly believe it)

3. If Toyota or any other manufactuer chooses to engineer and calibrate Electronic Stability devices conservativly then please explain how that is ‘adverse’ especially when considering we live in a society that has placed so much emphasis on automotive manufactuers to deliver us safer cars. These vehciles we are talking about are predominately family hacks and will be utilised accordingly. To me, calibrating them any other way in hope to gain extra sales is not only irresponsible but stupid.

I would much prefer to be in a vehicle were it’s passive aids engage sooner then later especially when the safety of my wife and 3 year old child is added to the equation. As far as i’m concerned, Toyota has shown responsible behaviour towards the vehicles they have choosen to engineer for everyday purposes and the fact that they now have GM and Ford in a hizzy-fit not only indicates that is has been a very successful corporate approach but an extremely lucrative one at that.

ok big question….
have you ever owned a falcon or commodore and ran it on the exact same run repeatdly? if you say no you havent learnt from as much of a broard experience as myself and your comments would be rendered BIASED

how do you know that a falcon will only return 600k’s out of a tank? did you read that in wheels? yep the very same magazine that you continuously discredit when anyone else pulls info from it. you mean you still buy it though?

i too am in queensland and my brother inlaw used to live in gladstone. i will see what he got out of his VY commy on runs down to brizzy. so you are saying 600-650k’s? i bet ill surprise you.

do you have any practicle knowledge of fuel consumption of any other cars apart from toyotas?

mate i have a pretty broard and unbiased “actually have seen” back ground in fuel economy in different makes. You?

what im saying is you WILL get 800k’s out of a falcon or commy to at least match what the camry’s are getting as you say.

ill tell you for a fact that my dads EF falcon (350,000k) does return 750k’s a tank (68L i think) and that is heavy footed with a bit of city cycle.
i can get 700k’s out of my falcon ON GAS on a highway run. yep on gas too.

and the eg i gave you with the VT was correct. how can you discredit something you dont know better about
the comparison was made on a run from brizzy to coffs harbour when they had the VT auto and then when they had the camry sportivo 4cyl manual. they reported the camry returned actually a little worse. FACT

ok so you admit the 3.0L camry isnt any better than the falcon or commy “in real world” then how do you figure the 3.5L Aurion wil be better?