2.well you finally see my point on fuel efficiency. thank you and i point out that the falcon 4.0L also pollutes a fair bit less when approached from the same angle.
power isnt always a trade off with efficiency. a great example is putting on a better exhaust, more power and you will actually use less fuel. also how come the move from BA to BF saw a power increase yet a fuel consumptipon decrease?
also i dont rate the most powerfull car in terms of the power figure they love to splash out with. the most powerfull car has to have the ability to sustain the power under load aswell. aka pulling power i suppose (somewhere where the toyota suffers).

just like a running race. you have to have stamina aswell or you only look good for a little bit

3. tread doesnt do shit for dry grip!!!! ok then why do race vehicle, drags and circuit racing run slicks??????? gee its a wonder they stay on the track you reckon? pffft tread is for a compromise when it rains
once again you have taken me out of context. i have never said RWD grips better than FWD in normal conditions. i simply commented on the observations that rears on FWD dont wear and simply applied the theory no wear = no grip
go drive some go carts too and you will learn how the RWD helps them turn better under acceleration. they pretty much wont turn unless you put some gas in to them.

4. the thing im getting at with fleet sales is it doesnt matter…. sales are sales….
now would you cop that the mazda actually outsells the corolla when you only consider private sales. yep so as far as you are concerned the corolla isnt the biggest seller is it?

last bit.
well landcruiser best in class for price?
well hilux and landcruiser are prob the worst value for money in their class.
yep most people will tell you the partol is actually better off road. they have had coil overs for a long long time giving them better flexibility over the toyota leafs.
well it wouldnt be landcruiser against territory it would be landcruiser against explorer. cause the landcruiser isnt australian either ford also can draw from its over seas bank.
i do agree though in that i dont know why either ford or holden dont care about 4wd’s here.maybe they see them dying i dont know (even though its just a case of importing them like toyota does) especially when the explorer is i believe the biggest seller by far over there

2. Haha well done, you could say in those terms the I6 is better… but we all know the trade off of performance is fuel efficiency, so Toyota to get that 3.5L V6 to have more power then Fords 4L I6 have had to per L reduce its efficiency. But I think you will find that Toyota didnt just say its the most fuel efficient, they also mentioned the fact that it returns better efficiency while having more power.

3. Tread pattern does effect dry grip to mate, maybe not alot… but it does. Anyway it all started from your lack of rear grip thing, you know its wrong now… FWDs have no real issues with a lack of rear grip.

4. Haha I said ’something like’, 60% sounds better but eitherway its nowhere near the 88% and 81% of Ford and Holden. As for competing sales and all that… as I said its really hard to say its a better product because it sells more then a foreign product isnt it, of course the local will get more sales. Eg the Mihandra pik up, very popular in India, not even considered by anyone in Australia.

As for the last bit, are you FOR REAL!!! Alot of our arguments are questionable, and can go eitherway… but Toyotas 4WDs lacking offroad ability? How about class leading for their price!!! The Landcruiser is one of the most popular 4WDs worldwide based on its offroad capabiltiies, particularly the troop carrier version. And you dont have to look far for reviews on other Toyota 4WDs such as the Prado which also get favourable results. Id like to see a Prado + Landcrusier up against Ford Australias best the Territory!!! And this leads to another point, I find it funny that being a land with wide expanses of outback that the local brands Ford and Holden dont offer true 4WDs, thats almost criminal!

2. im not going on about efficiency in terms of other things, just the fuel part. ie the part i quoted.
also you have to assume these fuel tests are done fairly. how do you know it wasnt the falcon that was stopped at more sets of lights? thats right you are just ASSUMING the aurion would be better cause you are a little bit biased to it arent you? come on admit it i wont tell.
and since you love to relate stuff to displacement why havent you commented on this one yet? fuel economy……….
toyota 3.5L =2.83L per 100k’s per Litre of disp
Ford 4.0L =2.55L per 100K’s per Litre of disp
which means
toyota 3.5L = 9.9L 100k
ford 3.5L = 8.9L 100k
plus the toyota is FWD so if it were RWD would you say it would be like 11L 100k?

3. paul yet again we are talking in AUSTRALIA. australia is a small country and just because other countries dont recognise us yet doesnt mean we dont come up with some good stuff.
ok so you can get a daewoo in a lot more countries than the falcon so are you saying the daewoo is better too? where it is sold means nothing in relation to its qualities and im sure they dont rate that when they do road tests which means when they look for a “class leader” they rank it against what they can get next door to compare it to.
has a falcon and hilux been compared (yes or no)
does the falcon offer more (yes or no)
the falcon isnt a fashion statement if any ute is its the maloo. but as a ute the falcon is the better. what does every farmer typically have? a rusty old falcon ute. because they are rugged and durable.

4. paul tread pattern has nothing to do with grip. that is purely related to compound. the tread pattern acts as a means of sheading water of the road when it rains. (oh yeah whats rain? he he)
i would have let it go but you had to add this ……
just admit you were wrong!.
now you can admit you are wrong by stating tread pattern has a lot to do with grip.

5.well i thought corolla was at least 60% fleet, you wouldnt be trying to make it look good now would you. dont tell me you dont know the exact figure cause you would be silly to know everyone elses fleet % and not “your brand”….. toyotas”

thats exactlly my point toyota wins sales in classes ford doesnt compete in.
forget the focus corolla thing.
ford AUS means AUSTRALIAN MADE not australian sold
focus is just new here too dont forget same as fiesta.

so tell me how does the corolla go against the focus in europe cause thats an established market for them.

also with 4wd’s anyone who knows about them will tell you that the toyota actually lacks in offroad ability. i dont know where this comes from…. QUOTE
“That Toyota is smarter… because they offer real 4WDs”… yep im guessing you dont know about utes or 4wd’s now

2. Are you not getting my point? Real world there are so many variables like driving style which make any difference (something like .3L per 100km) really insigificant as we argued in another article. BUT given the exact same circumstances (impossible) the Aurion would return marginally better fuel consumption more notably. And as I already said your interpreting efficiency as fuel efficiency, its about more than jus that as I said.

3. I already said I dont know heaps, but the Falcon not having any internationally appeal speaks leaps and bounds. As said, the Hilux is world know for its durability, the Falcon isnt even know for that locally. Its just a fashion statement.

4. Lol ummm not its not neccesarily because they are really haning on mate, usually the more expensive tyres use a softer compound which wears quicker. Granted in most cases they do grip better but it also has alot to do with tread pattern. Again your point is floored, I already said there are other variables in your ‘no grip in FWD rear end’ arugment in relation to wear, just admit you were wrong!

5. The Corolla, which is Toyotas highest selling fleet vehicle… sells something like 50% to fleets while Ford and Holden are in the 80s. I think in light of this we should consider it.

QUOTE = well you point out that performance and displacement have a direct effect, then ill tell you so does models/products offered and sales
do this…..
#of models ford has divide by total sales
#of models toyota has divide by total sales

Ummm what is your point? That Toyota is smarter… because they offer real 4WDs… or people movers etc. These are areas Ford dont even compete in. Then you forget your Toyota v Australia LOCAL only argument and consider things like the Corolla against the XR4 and Focus and again they win. The only area they win in is the locals, the Falcon and Territory… and its not because of a better product but more blind loyalty to the Australian product. The Aurion for example is FAR superior to the current Falcon yet people still buy it… the only reason for this is blind loyalty.

2.paul,
QUOTE………….
“Improved drivetrain efficiency: the direct connection between engine and transaxle reduce the mass and mechanical inertia of the drivetrain compared to a rear-wheel drive vehicle with a similar engine and transmission, allowing greater fuel economy. ”
you call this you credible source???
so as it says FWD allows greater fuel economy so where is it.
you contradict yourself when you say…..
“Aurion would return better efficiency, but realworld, not a difference… but it exists.”

how can it exist if you say in real world there is no difference? what world are you in? also as you are fully versed in the relationship between displacement and true performance could you please tell me what fuel figures a 3.5L Falcon would deliver?

3.Paul once again we are talking with in australia!!!!
thats right the only place on earth where the 2 can be compared. please list a few things that make it a class leader over the falcon ute….. WAITING.

and the fact that the vehicle is sold internationally has nothing to do with its class leadership does it?

4. yeah let #4 go any way it wont resolve and i didnt change subject i just tried to explain it differently. i have said you wont notice the difference under normal conditions anyway. all i was getting at was the relationship between tyre wear and grip. do you believe there is such thing?? have you ever bought pirelli’s, paid like $300 each and wondered why they wear soo quick? yep thats because they really hang on.

5. i agree with your first 2 lines i cant and havent denied it.
no no no stop using fleet arguments!!!! what is toyota’s fleet sales as a whole company??? people in glass houses dont throw stones.
main fleet sellers for toyota =
landcruiser
corolla
hiace
hilux
tarago
camry and ive prob missed some
sales are sales and it doesnt matter. point is i dont try to take fleet sales off toyota because they are still sales. so dont take it off others.

also you cant put 2 cars sales together. what is toyota so shit they put 2 cars in the clas and then only just make nearly the same sales?

so are you also saying the falcon ute isnt part of culture? who hasnt heard of a hilux? or recognise it as a work vehicle?
so are you saying the hilux is better than the falcon? thats fine to say that BUT please give me the reasons………..
the main things the falcon has over the hilux is..
power,comfort and styling the main things people look at so quick what do you have??

once again with the territory you cant add sales together even though it still doesnt meet territory sales.
what you are saying in doing that is ford are a more efficient company because they are able to extract 2x the sales from 1 model compared to toyota only getting half

well you point out that performance and displacement have a direct effect, then ill tell you so does models/products offered and sales
do this…..
#of models ford has divide by total sales
#of models toyota has divide by total sales

2. What are the official figures? The Aurion does consume less fuel, but under normal driving your hardly going to notice it alot as one driver might say his Falcon gets for eg 7L highway while the Aurion says 7.2L… yet the Aurion driver had to slow down and speed up or overtake etc. As I already said, if you could somehow get them in identical driving situations the Aurion would return better efficiency, but realworld, not a difference… but it exists. And when I mention FWD efficiency its not just fuel efficiency either but also other things like getting the power to the wheels (less is lost than in RWD)

3. Its an internatationally sold vehicle. How about the Falcon? You really think a car designed and developed here is better then something which has had alot more money poured into it? Hasnt top gear also recently been testing it and has been amazed with its quality? I will admit Im not the person youd go to for info on utes etc… but the above facts Ive stated would indicate its above the local competition.

4. I dont know what this has to do with anything, you previously mentioned all these grip things, I assume your changing of the subject is admitting defeat? And I dont understand your question, control the rear of a car with acceleration? What are you talking about exactly… RWDs? FWDs? Im lost in translation.

5. What are you getting at? Toyota has a 22% market share while Ford has only 10%. Obviously Toyota sells ALOT more cars. As for answers, Toyota sells more Aurions privately (those who use their own money) then Falcons (Camrys + Aurions might even outsell them no matter what)…. Falcon ute wise I really dont know, the Hilux is quite popular but Id be incline to say the Falcon just wins because they are part of a culture in Australia rather then being better then something like a Hilux… and lastly the Territory I honestly think Toyota might have them, they offer the Kluger and Prado which you could argue are both against the Territory and combined they would be close (gut feeling though would say territory might just have them). Again I ask, what is your point?

1. does the Ford I6 have a lot more torque 53nm?
2. why is the V6 aurion no more fuel concious than the ford I6? considering you said it was a more efficient vehicle.
3.how is the hilux a class leader?
4.why does the I6 emmit less co2 than its competitors V6 variants
5. yeah i dont care about FWD RWD stuff im not one of those “torque steer bandits” but did you know you can control the rear of a car with acceleration?
6. does the Falcon, Falcon ute and territory (thats the 3 Ford AUS mods) outsell its toyota competitors?

please answer all questions and not skip over the ones you got nothing for, even if it means you just acknowledge it

QUOTE = 6. i dont know how you cant understand what im saying here………..
high tyre wear means high griplevels right?
low tyre wear means low grip levels right?
stop throwing under and over steer at me i have never once said the word. what i have said before is that on road conditions you wouldnt notice between RWD and FWD
oh and no comment on the fuel consumption think?

Lol but as I said Andrew.M…. FWDs dont oversteer, so there is no issue of rear grip. And your more wear = high grip levels is FLOORED… the reason why RWD have more rear wear is because they are the powered wheels mate, so naturally they wear quickr, not because they have more grip!!!!

1. yeah lets let that one go i still claim im right as all i said was the I6 is narrower than the V6. not that it counts for anything, really does it?

2. well whether you meant to say the V6 was more balanced or not, you did say it. i just picked you up on it thats all so dont black mark me for that one

3. this was about where you listed advantages of the V6 and you said comparitive performance. im saying if it is comparitive then how come you see it as an advantage to the V6?

4. paul both of our figures were wrong the ford should have read…
3.6L ford = 345nm i must have miscalculeted i think you need to check the torque figure on the falcon before you comment on my math again.
yes i admit that its like 16nm (when done like that) but the falcon has an overall difference of 53nm and thats all i have said.
i have said previously that if ford went to the V6 they would lose a lot of torque.
is that correct?
do you think 53nm is a lot?

5. Q5. had nothing to do with taxes so why bring it up? take fords grant off and dont ford still reflect more anyway?
Q5. was about the fact that profit should be guaged over several years and not one. do you agree.
would you buy a business based on 1 years of figures?

6. i dont know how you cant understand what im saying here………..
high tyre wear means high griplevels right?
low tyre wear means low grip levels right?
stop throwing under and over steer at me i have never once said the word. what i have said before is that on road conditions you wouldnt notice between RWD and FWD
oh and no comment on the fuel consumption think?

7. well they didnt spend 600million on it then scrap it straight away did they? how old is the DOHC motor? figure that out then add 3yrs cause it had quite a servicable life.
still why do you whinge toyota gets less grant money? do you think its fair since they do develop less here? not just talking about the I6 i mean as a whole company.

8. what i have proved with the prius is that it only emitts less because it is a smaller motor.
and the other point stands that ford is doing more than toyota since they have 2 projects to toyotas 1

9.gee dont go adding multiple models to satisfy yourself.
easy…. does falcon sell more than aurion OR camry?

and if you read my comments properly i said FORD AUS. focus is not FORD AUS!!!!!
just for you FORD AUS models
Falcon
Falcon ute
Territory
if you dont know what im on about you must have “selective reading”. yes toyota sell more OVERALL but fail to outsell any one of FORD AUS models. TRUE?????????
yes toyota also sell more overall cause they are uncontested by ford in many categories true??????

10. mate where the car is sold means nothing especially when we are talking australian made, yes poor old australia who cant export outside of NZ.
hilux is not a SUV. even if it were what does it matter?
still, tell me how you figure the Hilux is a class leader? also a 10 yr old falcon ute scores better than a brand spanker hilux in terms of safety (forgot that one)

I didn’t quite get the last big of your post… fuel is why the large car market is going down, not Toyotas reliability etc? Not sure if that makes any sense.

Andrew.M…

1. I already said Im not going to bother with this argument, as its just dumb… V6s are a more compact unit. Period.

2. Umm what now? I don’t think I ever said (or at least meant to say) an I6 was less balanced… that it ridiculous. The whole reason why they get more torque is because I6s are more balanced, but as I showed, the difference that may exist is negligible. And your example, yes the Commodore is a POS. You compare benchmark vs benchmark local engine wise, so Aurion v Falcon. Again backing up a negligible difference as the Aurions engine is a derivative of one which was like the top 10 engines of the year…. What about Fords I6?

3. Not sure what that’s about

4. Lol all your little workings are just proving what I already did mate. Breaking it down was just one way to show you how wrong you were…. You showed another away, of how wrong you are!! And your way of working it out is WRONG I think…. You wanna do it your way then its simply:

Commodore 3.6L = 330Nm
Falcon 3.6L = 342Nm ( (380/4) * 3.6 )

Even if we go off yours, 16Nm…. Is this a massive difference? Hardly. Then we consider the true difference of 12Nm, hardly any difference as well especially when you consider that tuning gets the SV6 to 340Nm so the difference is only 2Nm!!! Massive difference? Do you really wanna continue this stupidity?

5. Toyota had a dispute in regards to taxes I believe in recent years… this effected their profit figures. And as I also said Ford etc get larger govt handouts, 70million the year they made a 150million profit while Toyota only made 50million profit. You don’t think these handouts distort the true position of the company compared to its competitors!? A 80million profit turns into 150million.

6. What is your point that rears don’t wear as much? Is it that FWDs are cheaper… which is a good thing lol!!! Id understand where your coming from if FWDs had a tendency is oversteer because of a lack of rear grip, but this doesn’t happen, so what is your point exactly? In fact the lack of work of the rear is highlighted as a positive of them, with a RWD you can experience bad understeer (going to hard into corner) and oversteer (powering to much through one). In a FWD you only experience understeer (Powering through or going to hard into a corner) so you control this and your set, apply power out of a corner and it keeps the arse down and follows the rest. Oh and btw Im not saying FWD cant oversteer at a ll, brake lifting makes them oversteer due to a lack of weight at the back, but you really have to induce this, Im talking normal circumstances.

7. What they develop? An I6 which is now scrapped. Something like 600 million taxpaper dollars put into it, to get emissions down, to develop hybrid technology etc…. for what? Think about it, that’s a lot of money wasted.

8. Lol I just touched on that… all of which is now USELESS given that they are no longer using the I6 which they developed all this technology on. As for your figures Im not sure, your trying to say the I6 emits less? You have to be kidding. As for Prius, Im one of the people who will say its not all its portrayed as… but its still alittle more enviro friendly then your average car and its developing and fine tuning a technology that in the future will be substantially better for the enviro. Lets think long term here not short term.

9. Camry + Aurion sales I think might be over Falcon sales in ‘large car’ segment. And the Corolla is over Fords Focus or Fiesta. I again don’t know what your getting at, Toyota sells A LOT more cars then Ford, this has to mean they outsell Ford in many areas.

10. Hilux is more of an SUV kinda thing but people looking at utes will go look at the Hilux, which is a class leader. Tell me, is your Falcon ute sold overseas? Didn’t think so… the Hilux is an international car.

2. how do you sum up the I6 is less balanced? just curious. i mean when compared to the commy (cause thats what falcon always gets compared to and vice versa) people say the I6 is much more balanced and smoother.

3. since when was “comparible” performance considered an advantage to V6. doesnt that mean they cancel themselves out as it could also be an advantage in the I6 score board. comparible means no advantage to either side. gee you are really digging there.

4. ok you cant buy an engine by the Litre. i see what you are trying to do though. you are the master of manipulating facts ill give you that. you must be studying to be a politition.
for 1 you math was wrong. i see you rounded down the falcon yet rounded up the commy.
ok to satisfy you you must times 96nm x3.6L for the ford to get a true comparison with the commy (not break it down like you did) otherwise you could say…

9.6nm per .1L Ford
9.2nm per .1L Holden
now that would be just as silly and you can see it illustrates nothing
now back on track……….
so you could say a 3.6L ford would be….
3.6L ford = 346nm
3.6L holden = 330nm (thats how you do the comparo you tried to do)
but i say since the ford has the extra .4L and uses no more fuel i.e. is more efficient, then it can count.
dont pull the sv6 into it as that competes with the XR6 turbo.
in summary the difference is still 53nm cause it is.
and if you doubt 53nm isnt much or doesnt mean any thing then you cement my opinion that you dont know what torque is.
i will also re-frase
have you ever felt the torque difference in vehicles before?
oh yeah as adam said the key with the falcon is also the very low range where it is all on tap. the F6 is a great show of that with 550nm all from 2000rpm

5. the profit thing. ok you are now admitting that you have to judge profit over a period of time. so why are you hung up on the “now”?? toyota is in their “cream” part of the cycle whilst ford is in the “labour” part of the cycle. so you must take the average of the last 6-7 years to ensure figures arent falsefyed. in summary what adam reflects with the figures is right.
so are you saying you would buy a business based on 1 years of figures? (dont get cut im not trying to say toyota are going down the drain)

6. correction….. used on roads at low speeds there is, well, NO difference. you cant say the FWD is better at these conditions especially when you had said previously that there is no difference.
1 main reason i believe RWD has better connection to the road is not because of opinionated road tests but also tyre wear. we all know tyre wear is indicative of grip levels, and well rears on a FWD dont wear.

also you state greater fuel efficiency from FWD, so where is it? hey ill talk your language he he he…..

toyota 3.5L =2.83L per 100k’s per Litre
Ford 4.0L =2.55L per 100K’s per Litre

so where is this greater efficiency?? he he he
hey did i say thats the way you prove the world too?
gee id hate to see a RWD toyota fuel figures then.

7.grant money,
well dont ford and holden develop a lot more in australia? YES
so isnt it fair they get more? YES
would you think it would be fair to give asians coming here on holiday or work visa etc the pension or whatever? NO
I too am waiting to hear to grant toyota gets

8.hybrids and enviro friendly stuff……
mate ford AUS are doing it, they are developing a hydrogen car and they also have a gas model falcon hello!!! the only car here produced on gas.
what does toyota have especially toyota AUS.
and on the prius (the car toyota fooled people with cause they are now figuring out it wasnt all it was cracked up to be) lets have a look at your style figures on this one…….

prius 1.5L = 70.7g of co2 per km
falcon petrol!! 4.0L = 60.7g of co2 per km

NOTE: sorry i get confused when you demonstrate how good toyota AUS is by using the corolla???

9. and yes toyota does offer a much larger range. maybe thats why they sell more too. ill let you do the comparo figures on “units sold divide by models”
toyota doesnot beat ford for sales in any category that ford AUS competes.
large car….ford beats toyota sales
SUV……….ford beats toyota sales
utes………ford beats toyota sales

10. utes brings me to the last one,
hilux is NOT by far the class leader. falcon ute ring a bell? i mean how do you make your judgement?
yep falcon gets hilux on sales
yep falcon is more powerfull than hilux
yep falcon handles better than hilux
yep falcon is more comfortable than hilux
yep falcon has more features than hilux
now ill be funny…. do you know what a ute is?