your youtube referance has made me see and added bonus to Fuel Cell powered cars. If you put a tap in the fuel line you can fill balloons from the tank. So very unsafe to have a kid wondering around with a balloon full of hydrogen (especially if smokers are presant), but in certain suburbs it will certainly be done.

You also touched on the issue of manufacture of hydrogen. It can be done sustainably (hydro – wind – solar), or tapped from coal feilds or havested from industries that produce it as a bye product. However as we all know human nature, it will most likely be done the cheapest and easyest way useing existing tecnology. Hydrogen derived from hydrocarbons will be disappointing. (if the process turns Natural Gas into hydrogen and diesel it may be worth it for the short term as Australia will be on a winner)

Not going to argue with that statement :)

My point with the students and their hydrogen ballon bomb, was that it was not even compressed H2. 5000psi is a big deal. At the end of the day even lithium is explosive, so what ever we drive there will be a fire risk somewhere.

Tom, I did respond to you. But my comment is being moderated because the small room at the front of a plane could be deemed a rude word…Good work CA!! :)

I remember years ago seeing on a TV program (beyond 2000) technology being demonstrated for holding hydrogen in a small tank in a maner that would be relitivly safe in the event of an accident. The tank was ruptured in the presance of a flame, but did not explode. That was well over 10 years ago, so I imagine this technology has been refined more since.

I can see fuel cell – electric hybrids as the most logical evolution for cars in the longer term future. This doesn’t mean that it will happen as our spiecies isn’t exactly governed by logic.

It amuses me that EV proponents have the same attitudes towards technological development as the EV naysayers did a few years ago, when it comes to fuel cells.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMB2VR0087w

Now consider the Honda FCX tank which is compressed to 350bar or (5000Psi). At that pressure if the tank fails in an accident your going to have a bad day :)

I think fuel cells have their place in areospace and energy generation, like using excess solar power generated during the day. Converting to H2 then back to electricity at night. But for automotive its just not sustainable enough. The well-to-wheel ratio is just too loo compared to a BEV.

In some parts of the world you could use that as advertising FOR fuel cell cars! Wasn’t there an American Oil company using the slogan “a Tiger in your Tank” in the 70’s or 80’s?

Hydrogen is a much missunderstood element. Most people panic and think of the Hindenberg when you talk about the stuff and cars. The way the Hindenburg Burnt had a lot to do with the aluminium and canvas that was visable burning. Its worth remembering that quite a few people survived that crash ( an Areoplane full of AV Gas would had had few if any survours )

Hydrogen itself burns with a clear flame and the heat does not radiate (this makes Hydrogen fires a bugger to spot without getting burnt). If hydrogen leaks its lighter than air properties means it tends to asend, not expand outwards like LPG.

The ideal Fuel Cell arangement would be a Fuel Cell -
Battery set up with the fuel cell generating power to keep the batteries topped up and the car running off the batteries. This would be simular to the way modern Diesel – Electric submarines work, There is even a type of Submarine under development that will be Diesel – Fuel Cell – Electric (Germany – type 212 I think).

Worth watching to see where this Tech evolves.

Thats a bit aggressive Frenchie, you been hitting the expresso machine a bit hard or what :)

Sorry the quoted price was for Lithium Carbonate which is one of the key ingredients for lithium-ion batteries. I doubt lithium metal would be $600USD per Kg, that sounds very high to me.

“but at the moment H2 is a more reliable, lighter energy storage solution than batteries. Batteries storage capacity depletes over time, so bigger batteries mean bigger waste.”

How can you deem H2 to be reliable when there are no H2 cars available to buy? Doesn’t that tell you something? Battieries can be recycled and don’t involve you driving around with a compressed Hydrogen bomb in your tank.

Every piece of empirical evidence from every leading scientific organisation in the world says that we are causing it. If you don’t believe me, all you have to do it is type “global warming” into google, look at a few graphs, read a few reports, and it is as clear as anything.

But somehow, you guys know something everyone else doesn’t? And you know, even if you are right, it doesn’t make sense for us to keep consuming, wasting, and using nonrenewable resources.

Good on you for standing by your beliefs, but unfortunately, you are flogging a dead horse. A very dead horse, the skeletal remains of a horse, no, the DNA of the dust of where the horse died 10,000 years ago.

At the moment I’m not going to take any sides as yet. It’s a race between 2 technologies, H2 and EV – we as consumers will have the choice and decide which one we prefer.

$5 dollars per Kg, where did you get that figure from?
The cost of lithium is more like $300USD per lb ($600USD per Kg!

Lithum is very aboundant in the earths crust. Why do you think its market value is only $5USD per Kg. Not to mention most H2 Fuel cell cars still have Lithium-Ion batteries to harvest energry from braking.

All energy providers have a form of return on energy investment (EROI) as mentioned by Phil.C . Oil used to be about 20:1, so for every unit of energy used to produce oil you’d get 20 back. Oil is now sitting at about 5:1, and hydrogen is 0!

“Hydrogen engines are more sustainable in the long run compared with electric”

Hydrogen engines that are power by Fuel Cells are electric! They are the same thing. Your fuel cell converts H2 to electricity to drive an electric motor.

Shak, the oil companies have invested heavily in Hydrogen. Who do you think is driving the campaign. Shell is a big player in the US for H2 supply.

“Rome wasn’t built in a day as the old saying goes”, thats true Jimmy but they have been working on H2 for over 43 years! I didn’t take that long to put a man on the moon.

I think you are correct about energy offset with regard to nuclear power (sometime in 2020). But recent figures show it would take 100 years for a wind farm to actually return energy to the grid, taking into account building costs and the minimal energy produced.

Uh, LPG infrastructure exists all over the world and it’s use as a fuel is widespread, cheap AND green. It doesn’t require being stored at ridiculous temperatures below zero. It just goes in a tank.

The point is, cheaper ways exist, and until they ALL dry up, hydrogen as a fuel is the LAST resort. Last. Got it? After LPG runs out, after oil, after everything.

Changing a fuel cell out wouldn’t be that hard. There would be the physical mountings, a fuel line and the electrical connections. Chances are the newer fuel cell would be physically smaller too.

It would likely mean, that you’d change it out once and then when it’s due a 2nd time, the body and everything else would need replacing. So, buy a new car then.

I’ve built a solar farm and maintained a 300kW wind turbine as part of my work as an electrical fitter mechanic. To build the wind turbine for example requires among other things steel. Steel requires coking coal and iron ore, it also requires a furnance, either gas blast or electric arc. It took energy to supply the coal and the iron ore and the ‘energy’ source. These all created emissions.

What is hoped for, is that over the life of the renewable investment, be it wind or solar etc that it provide more energy than was required to build, install and maintain. The energy is converted from wind or solar radiation. In your other example, hydro energy. There is all the construction energy. Therefore there is a positive net benefit.

Even nuclear, the so called best solution (not my thinking) would according to John Howard’s report by former Telstra boss Ziggy stated that the emissions for building all the required Nuclear stations increase our emissions before finally reducing them some time in the 2020’s…