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GM considers Chapter 11, new company – reports

By David Twomey |

It’s been talked about a lot in recent months but now it seems that General Motors headquarters in Detroit is seriously considering a Chapter 11 bankruptcy filing ahead of a deadline tomorrow for a plan to deal with the company’s current financial crisis.

A report on Reuters newsagency says that General Motors Corporation, nearing a Tuesday deadline to present a viability plan to the US government, is considering as one option a Chapter 11 bankruptcy filing that would create a new company.

The plan was also reported on in the highly reputable Wall Street Journal, which said in its Saturday edition: “One plan includes a Chapter 11 filing that would assemble all of GM’s viable assets, including some US brands and international operations, into a new company.”

The newspaper said: “The undesirable assets would be liquidated or sold under protection of a bankruptcy court. Contracts with bondholders, unions, dealers and suppliers would also be reworked.”

Citing “people familiar with the matter,” the story said that GM could also ask for additional government funds to stave off a bankruptcy filing.

GM declined to comment, the story said.

General Motors and Chrysler LLC face a Tuesday deadline to file restructuring plans to the government in exchange for receiving US$17.4 billion in federal loans.

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Carmakers have struggled as US car sales have tumbled amid a recessionary economy. US car sales in January tumbled to a 27-year low.

GM has been in talks with bondholders and the United Auto Workers union to get an agreement on a restructuring that would wipe out about US$28 billion in debt for the auto maker, sources have told Reuters.

However, it appears unlikely a deal could be reached by the Tuesday deadline, they said.

GM has already announced plans to cut 10,000 salaried workers worldwide, or 14 percent of its staff, impose pay cuts for most remaining white-collar US workers and has offered buyouts to its 62,000 US workers represented by the UAW.

In addition, it is trying to sell its Hummer SUV and Swedish Saab brands and is reviewing the status of its Saturn brand.


 
  • Thommo

    Whatever happens, “GM” will still exist. That must really P off the anti-??? brigade.

  • Falcodore

    Declaring chapter 11 bankruptcy is probably their best option. The UAW has crippled GM, this would be a good way of clearing out the dead wood.

    anti spam = pontiac

  • Limited Slip

    Oh dear……Holden will be shaking in its boots now !

  • Thommo

    Limited Sense,
    Why would that be? Don’t you think that Holden would be amung the “viable assets”?

  • RoFlmaTiC

    It would probably be better for GM to start under a totally new banner and get rid of the tainted GM brand names.

    People are going to be hesitant at the very least from buying cars from a bankrupt company.

  • Joober@Work

    I beg to differ, I think the GM brand still hold considerable brand value around the world, even though as crumby as they are, I think it will be twice as hard to get a new brand rolling than to fix up a current one, I think the volt should be flag bearer car of this phoenix.

  • Acfsambo

    If GM goes down, Holden h=may go with it as the European and Korean brands owned go=y GM (Opel, Vauxhall, Daewoo, ect.) could also go or be bought by other companies, which could mean Holden wouldn’t have the Astra, Viva, Barina, ect. to sell and only have the Commodore.

    It may become similar to what happe ned with Mitsubishi in Aus. It was reported that they were on the verge of closing, so people didn’t but the 380 as they were wary about parts/servicing if the 380 was canned.

  • http://australiancaradvice Argus

    The Crapodore won’t survive as not even the yanks want such a crapbox. Pontiac have sold how many of these outdated, overrated heaps of sh*t

    EXACTLY !!!!!!!!!

    Your day is nearing Holden, down you go with the rest of the sinking ship.

  • Dan

    Ah well. It was to be expected at the end of the day. If you keep producing junk, eventually you will pay the price. Bye bye GM, that’s one big chapter of motoring history closed.

    Hopefully Holden will stay on ok, it wouldn’t be good for our country if it got into similar strife as its parent.

  • RoFlmaTiC

    Holden won’t go… they will be bought by another company. GM will sell off most of its subsidiaries; whilst Holden might be viable (though that’s a debate right there) this would mean it will fetch a higher price.

    The only question is where the new owners will be from.

    China? India? Japan? Korea?

    Whatever the answer, there will be a negative impact on Holden’s brand reputation and sales.

    What I am curious about is how Holden will operate if ties to other GM subsidiaries are cut. No more astra / viva / barin as acfsambo said. Where will they get their engines from?

  • Bavarian Missile (.)(.)

    TWO WORDS…………….Considering & Newspaper …………that is a definite then

    Get back to us Wednesday,then we can discuss it!

  • RoFlmaTiC

    They may not even have the choice of considering… if they do not meet tomorrow’s deadline for proving to the US government that they are viable.

  • Limited Slip

    Thommo……Holden a viable asset? Well i wouldnt go that far. They relied on the rear wheel drive platform and now thats gone so all they really are is a Daewoo importer, hardly viable. In fact, if it wasnt for their limited exports Holden would NOT be here now. They have stopped production for a long periods and their exports are crumbling so I think “viable” is a bit strong. Anyway even if they are viable they will still go down because GM will have to start from scratch. Holden WILL be very nervous today.

  • http://skyline The Salesman

    On one hand i am patriotic and would like to think this (if it happens) won’t effect the Aussie market with Holden.
    On the other hand it is deserved for thinking of immediate profits and ignoring market trends. Maybe in this new automotive world there is just no room for GM the way they are currently structured. We shall see.
    We drove the Chevy to the levy, but the levy is dry. Haunting words.

  • Dan

    Lol! Holden is indeed a Daewoo importer. Regardless, better have a Dunnydoor and Daewoo models in its lineup, than only the Dunnydoor on its own. Either way, it’s bad news for Holden. Curious how it will affect HSV, given all their LS engines are developed by GM. They might have to go back to their prehistoric 180 kw 5 litre dinosaur lol! Hopefully they won’t lay off staff and continue going. Maybe without the yank tank and Daewoo influence their quality will actually improve later on, so could be a blessing in disguise… either way, there’s enough loyal Holden fans out there to sustain Dunnydoor sales for now.

  • FAST FORDS

    OH MY GOD !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GM made a huge mistake by joining forces with DAEWOO, SAAB, SATURN etc, for a start Daewoo (DEADWOOD) is below standard, you can only cover up inferior cars for so long, the public have woken up to rebadging and lies.

    Ford on the other hand are definitely building much better foundations for its future, look at all the quality cars from Ford, I would have to say not one GM car compares..

    Sorry GM-DAEWOOO-HOLDEN but you have lost the plot, I’m going out to buy my new quality FORD because it means alot more to me having a car worthwhile owning.

  • JEKYL & HYDE

    dan,

    it least the old 5ltr sounded good.the new ls chev’s go hard,but don’t sound the same….

  • adam (aka mada)

    The US federal goverment doesn’t have much choice with GM or the auto industry.
    Lend GM a few more Billion or GM goes into bankruptcy, which will be very disruptive for the whole US auto industry regardless.
    Not a enviable position for GM or the US goverment.

  • t39

    Might be a tactic on behalf of GM to stir up the public reaction in order to scare US congress into being less stringent with the loans.

  • adam (aka mada)

    Could be, the US goverment mind you would currently know the intimate details of GM’s and Cryslers financials as that was a condition of lending them money in the first place.

    Either way, GM and Crysler’s day to day operations/product development are greatly affected, Ford is lucky not needing US goverment loans currently as they don’t have the distraction or restrictions imposed by the Goverment loans GM and Crysler have.
    This greatly affects the competitive ability for the next couple of years.

  • Marcoz

    They could call it AM, American Motors, as in Amercians have cause the whole world wide finances to collapse, MOTORS….lol….

  • Frontman

    I find it amazing that so many of you have an opinion, yet so few of you have an understanding of what you are commenting on!
    Chapter 11 would have to be the best thing for GM right about now, this does not mean that they go out of business it simply means that they are placed in the hands of administrators who can then do the things that GM cannot do right now. Things like throw out the UAW health and pension plans, shut down certain factories etc. with out have to pay out massive costs.

    Salesman, I would suggest you have another look at what GM actually have in their portfolio if you honestly believe they don’t build what the public want. The Chevy Malibu may not be class leading but both it and the Fusion were rated above Camry and Accord by JD power. Also, have a look at the numbers sold (eg from “letter to the Editor last year” http://theintermountain.com/page/content.detail/id/513450.html?nav=5011) quoting ’07 figures and the ratio was still mostly the same last year
    ["When you say that the Big Three build vehicles nobody wants to buy, you must have overlooked that GM outsold Toyota by about 1.2 million vehicles in the U.S. and Ford outsold Honda by 850,000 and Nissan by 1.2 million in the U.S. "]

    So I would suggest what you are saying is either misinformed or an attempt at misguiding the general public.
    If you want a manufacturer that builds what it wants and then tells the public to accept it, with the bassis being proffit over product look no further than Toyota. Camry is the same the worl over because that’s cheapest. Nothing to do with what the public wants.

  • Buck

    Ford have made the effort to invest in new fresh designs for the current climate, Fiesta, Focus and Kuga to name just three.

    When you look at most of the GM product, it just seems so old fashioned and dated.

    Here it doesn’t help that most of their smaller offerings are rebadged Daewoo’s or Korean product of at best average quality and their current VE is clearly inferior to the FG Falcon.

    Factor in GM being saddled with high debt, an apparently unco-operative UAW union, problems with GMAC and what have you….it all just looks too hard..chapter 11 looks like the only real way forward.

    Can I place a bet on chapter 11 for GM sometime this month or next. Is centrebet taking bets on that ?

  • BJ

    Holden isn’t a viable asset; it’s awash with red ink. Without the parent Co life support Holden would have failed years ago. If GM goes in Chapter 11 it certainly won’t emerge with loss making subsidiaries.

    And for all of the self-appointed experts out there in blogland; entry into Chap 11 doesn’t mean that the company can or necessarily will be reorganised and emerge as viable entity. Many companies go from Chapter 11 into Chapter 14 liquidation.

  • adam (aka mada)

    Frontman,

    I very much understand how bankruptcy works.

    I agree GM would have far more flexibility if they do declare bankruptcy.
    However, the debate is primarily about the fact that much of the general public won’t seriously consider a new vehicle from an auto company that is bankrupt, posing a serious issue about how they may recover sales at the end of the bankruptcy process, GM may never recover, thats the issue.
    GM and Crysler are also seriously distracted from there main business purpose.

  • Neil

    So whilst US Banks are falling left, right and center and are almost immediately granted access to govt. loans without any guarantee what so ever that the funds used will help keep them afloat or will even be used towards their bank (read: Citigroup attempting to buy new jets), the Big Three go under trial and are expected to predict how they will repay these loans during the most turbulant financial period in over 70 years

    Whilst GM & Chrysler havnt helped themselves leading into this situation, you’ve gotta wonder what lawmakers in the US are thinking

  • http://skyline The Salesman

    Frontman,
    If they build cars people want, why are they in trouble? Yes your figures are correct. How many different products does GM have in those figures?
    And Ford out sold Honda? Your point is? Hyundai – Kia out sell Honda and Nissan. VW out sells Ford. And so on. Fact is, regardless of what’s on paper GM need to re structure, we all agree on that.

  • Jester

    This would be a great news if it happens.

    Australia could buy back Holden, and make it truly Australian.
    On the contrary, Holden is very much so financially healthy, but the USA operations are overlaoded with pensions and healthcare issues that makes them bankruptcy prone.

  • Frontman

    Adam, that’s the point of taking the first step, it offers greater flexibility. As for consumers being wary of companies being Bankrupt, didn’t affect Toyota when it went close during the Japanese collapse. But then the Japanese government got behind them and offered support in so many different ways (that’s not a complaint but an example). Yes they could still go to chapter 14 but there is a long way between the two when dealing with comapnies this size.

    Salesman, the reasons are many and simple. Bad management and the UAW come first on the list, but then you also need to look at the support the southern states have given for manufacturers to set up shop outside of Detroit and how that has helped them to be price advantaged to the D3 and as you well know you only have to reasonable quality if you are price advantaged to sell.
    As for the who outsold who, follow the link and read the letter. That is why I supplied the link you know? But it is the American manufactured Toyotas, Hondas and Nissans that are constantly thrown up as being the role models that the D3 should aspire to.

    Neill, I’m glad someone else sees it as strange that the Financial sector who were the creators of this plague were given an immediate 700 bil hand out without even a by your leave, and the Manufacturers have to roll over sit up and beg to get a LOAN??? Very amussing

  • RoFlmaTiC

    Frontman, if C11 was the best thing for GM then why did they not choose that 4 months ago?

  • adam (aka mada)

    They didn’t due to the fact that is would hurt thier sales, regardless.

    C11 does offer more flexibility as frontman says, but it does have it’s negatives also, many that GM may not be able to overcome.
    Anyhoo, remains to be seen what GM does.

  • BJ

    Jester:

    Holden is a basket case. Have a look at its results:

    FY ending 31 December:

    2005 $145M Loss

    2006 $146M Loss

    2007 $6M Loss

    2008 isn’t going to be pretty.

  • FAST FORDS

    It all comes down to sales, GM became too big for their boots, borrowing money does not help any reputation END OF STORY…….

    Anti Spam Word: Barina, WORST CAR EVER BUILT AND MOST DANGEROUS, SUMS UP GM-DAEWOO-HOLDEN EXPONENTIALLY.

    It’s time for our one eyed GM fans to take the blinkers off.

  • Thommo

    BJ, convenient that you start with ’05.

    What about ’04 $216M profit plus $120M transfer to HQ and ’03 $285M.
    So the two years before your stats they made $621M.

  • Thommo

    Jester Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 5:00 pm
    “This would be a great news if it happens.

    Australia could buy back Holden, and make it truly Australian”

    Jester, Holden has been owned by GM since before they ever made their first complete car.

    How do we buy back something we never owned?

    The little saddlery company that grew into a motor body builder is all that was ever Australian.

    “Holden” as a car manufacturer was always American owned.

  • adam (aka mada)

    Dinbat…

    Toyota turned a record profit into a record loss for the first time in 70 years.

    Your excuse for that?

  • adam (aka mada)

    Dinbat…
    Toyota has even admitted itself it made the mistake of moving far too slow in the current sales decline.

    Toyota is is not perfect, no auto company is.

  • Yank

    they r goin to save their own ppl and asses before they give a toss for the aussis.

  • Frontman

    RoFlmaTiC, Don’t forget there was another very big thing going on four months ago that played heavily on the decisions made by the D3. As well as the elections they were being promised financial aid and all types of niceties.
    Very hard to make a decision like that when you do not know who you will be working with. Now they know they are dealing with Obama they can (if they chose) file for 11 and sit down with him to work out the best solution. Remember it is in the presidents best interest to try to keep as many fo the reported 600,000 directly linked in employment.
    There will be casualties from this, (hopefully Wagoner will be one of them) but I can see that GM will come through. They also have a little ace up their sleeve if Congress wants to get tough tomorrow, as congress set a time line but then still haven’t held up their side and implement a “car czar”. So as a company how do you put forward a plan when the referee who is supposed to sign off on all things isn’t even in the venue let alone the game? (please note I am at no stage trying to absolve the GM executives from being a major part of this mess and was extremely dissapointed to see Lutz leave another sinking ship and seemingly be regarded as a hero :<. Lutz is now 3 out of 3 at stuffing car companies up and getting out before the stuff hits the fan)
    On another note but also showing it is not the area of the D3 alone, did anyone else read that Toyota is looking a t employee buyouts and standowns in it’s US manufacturing operations. This plague has a lot further to go before it gets better.

  • BJ

    Thommo,

    You are missing the point. Holden will only be retained in a reorganised GM if it can make a positive contribution to the deal struck with creditors and to the business going forward. A sea of red ink doesn’t make the grade.

    Holden cannot even make an indirect contribution after the cancellation of RWD R&D and export models. Australia is a small ailing RWD market that survives on subsidies and fleet purchases. The business is a dog; pure and simple. GM doesn’t need Holden and they probably cannot afford to keep it.

  • adam (aka mada)

    Dinbat…

    Please explain why Toyota turned a record profit into a record loss!??

    Toyota even admitted self harm.

    It’s time you did also :)

  • adam (aka mada)

    BJ,

    You do realise that 2/3 of Toyota Oz’s sales are fleet purchases don’t you???

    Your thoughts on that perhaps??

  • FAST FORDS

    FORD WINS DAYTONA 500, MATT KENSETH STARTED FROM LAST AND WON AFTER RAIN STOP THE RACE

    TOYBOTA DRIVER KYLE BUSCH CRASHED BIG TIME HaHaHaHaHa OOOOOOOCHY, OH WHAT A FEELING !!!!!!

  • Dan

    LOL! I’ve noticed lack of Bavaria and Wheelnut comments (and I use that term loosely) on here also. Probably staying quiet hoping for it all to go away. I guess there is nothing Toyota related to pick on here is there. But I guess as much as they are used to arguing against the facts, the fact that GM are filing for chapter 11 is way too strong for them to dismiss and deny that toyo is doing a lot better than GM. Similarly to ‘you pay peanutes, you get monkeys’, you can say ‘you build junk, you go broke’. Bang! Game over. Sadly.

  • http://skyline The Salesman

    None of the top 10 is turning a profit. It is a case of those who are weakest will not survive. We can revive facts on profit and loss beyond 100 posts on C.A.and the fact will still not change. Consumers have lost confidence. The market will bounce back. Who will be left to benefit is yet to be known. I would put money on just about anything that’s not American.

  • BJ

    Of course I know that, but Toyota is a different proposition to GM. For a start Toyota isn’t technically bankrupt and it can afford to continue to subsidise local operations.

  • RoFlmaTiC

    Dingo makes me want to pour petrol on my celica and set it on fire.

  • http://australiancaradvice Dingo

    Go ahead Car Advice … delete because there is gonna be alloott of deleting

    HA, HA, HA … this dog will be the one having the last laugh. I have been waiting for this moment for a long time.

    OH WHAT A WARM AND FUZZY FEELING

  • adam (aka mada)

    BJ,

    You tried to paint Holden as a fleet queen and thus the reason for thier loss over the last 3 years.

    You are wrong, simple.

    Toyota is simply a profitable fleet queen currently, thats the only difference between the two.

  • Limited Slip

    Yes Holden has been losing money for a long time. I cant see why GM would keep it when they are going so bad. They make stuff all on their range of Daewoo imports and because most VE are sold to fleets at a huge discount they make no money there either. A viable concern? Hardly ……..

  • Frontman

    So this is the infamous DINGO??? I now understand the miriad of comments surround this person.
    Mr Dingo just for your own personal gratification, your beloved Toyota are not as happily off as you make out.
    Quote form GMs postion in the WSJ on sat also included the following comment
    Also this week, Toyota Motor Corp. the largest automaker in the world by sales, said it plans to cut back production in North America and offer buyouts to employees.

    Now add to that the problems in Toyotas own city in Japan with the reported 150,000 people out of work because of Toyotas down turn last year and you are looking at a company that is actually heamoraging quite badly. Now I am not saying they are in as bad a possition as GM or Chrysler LLC, but I can guarantee that the Japanese government will once again start to restructure it’s trading practices to once again offer protectionism to Toyota. Like it did during the 80′s & 90′s. Much the same way as Korea is doing at present.

  • adam (aka mada)

    for gods sake!

    Toyota OZ made a loss for for years up until about 2-3 years ago while.

    Profit is cyclic people! major new vehicle launches drain profit until they pay the new programs off.

    The declining global vehicles sales are the main problem here, as salesman said, the weak will die first in these current economic circumstances.

  • http://australiancaradvice Dingo

    RoFlmaTic – go ahead, it ain’t my car … CLOWN !!

    Saleslady – who is the weakest, obvious … GM !!

    Ooooow … theres that warm and fuzzy feeling again

    Go ahead Alborz, delete your heartout. I couldn’t careless because at the end of the day we all know General Motors is a complete f*ck up

    It seems Loose Wheelnut is not in the mood with his stupid pro Holden propaganda all of a sudden. Gee … i wonder why.

    Maybe because Holden is aboout to go the wall with GM … Oooooch !!

    HA, HA, HA

  • adam (aka mada)

    Frontman,

    Correct, yay!

  • http://australiancaradvice Dingo

    Adam – keep drying those eyes princess because it seems you will be needing alot of hankies.

    I tell you what softy, give youR address and i will gladly mail you some of my wives pink and purple hankies that have been washed in cuddly.

    BOO HOO …

  • Bavarian Missile (.)(.)

    Hey Adam Alborz suggests ignore him ,hes been reported and will be gone soon I imagine.

  • Limited Slip

    No tears from me when Holden go ………

  • http://australiancaradvice Dingo

    Frontman – get over it dude, Toyota will be around to make more $$$ when the times change, as it will … but General Motors on the otherhand will be in Bankruptcy Protection which = COMPLETE MISERABLE FAILURE

    OH WHAT A WARM AND FUZZY FEELING

    ps. if you want some of my wives hankies i will gladly mail some.

    What sort of ‘softner’ do you like ?????

  • http://australiancaradvice Dingo

    ps. That is Mr Famous Dingo to you thanks

    Cheers

  • Jimbo

    Hmmmm…..Dingo I fail to see how thousands of people losing their jobs is funny?

    Sure GM have made some pretty poor cars and Holden has made some shocking decisions over the last 10 years, but I hope for all their employees sake they pull though this, don’t you?

  • Golfschwein

    On the turps again, you worthless piece of hankie snot?

    How much is your house worth if it belongs to the courts?

  • FAST FORDS

    Dingo, did u miss your retard bus today, or forgot to take medicine for that typing tick.

    OH WHAT A COLD SINKING FEELING !!!!!!! TOYBOTA

  • http://australiancaradvice Dingo

    Limited Slip – sooo true !!!

    There won’t be any tears from most people when Holden goes.

    Sooo Saaad Tooo Baaad for Loose Wheelnut. I guess right now Bavarian Missile is trying to mother Wheelnut. This dog will ensure he’ll need alot of it when GM finally does go bust.

    If i was you Wheelnut, when that eventually happens – don’t show you face on this site because i will running rings around ‘ya

    OH WHAT A WARM AND FUZZY FEELING

  • Dan

    In my honest opinion, from what I can see as a third person observer, Dingo is simply a reverse mirror image of Bavaria and Wheelnut. Pro Toyo/ anti gm versus anti toyo/pro GM. You are not in any way different in the manner of your posts etc guys. Not sure why you reporting him bavaria?? You should equally report yourself in the anti toyo threads haha.

  • http://skyline The Salesman

    GM wont disappear off the face of the earth. The American government will keep them going. It looks like most agree a C11 will allow GM to re structure into the current market conditions. You will see Ford become the second biggest car maker, then VW and the Koreans.

  • http://australiancaradvice Dingo

    Golfswhein – sucked-in clown, it seems this dog will hanging around for a while.

    HA, HA, HA … looser !!!!

    Fast Fords – it seems GM / Holden lovers will be needing alot of retard buses soon … HA, HA, HA

    Ooooow, theres that WARM FLOATING FEELING AGAIN

  • Jimbo

    I wonder is the US government, would buy GM and have a (Chinese style) government run car industry?………hmmmm perhaps not, due to that whole communism thing eh. But due to the upcoming debt the US government may as well own GM.

  • http://skyline The Salesman

    Dan,
    You can be opinionated, that’s OK. Dingo takes it to an unnecessary and entertaining new level. I say let him go, if you want to take his bate then that’s up to you. If you don’t bite then he has nothing.

  • RoFlmaTiC

    It’s puzzling how a driver of such an uninspiring car [camry] can be so passionate about cars [Dingo].

    Said from a fellow toyota driver :) Even we think Dingo’s a tosspot.

  • HAL

    Ha, I’ve never seen this Dingo dude before. Hilarious!

    Now, let’s see – loner, sits at home drinking and abusing people in cyberspace, apparent redneck tendencies evident in the language used, lack of education evident in the grammatical and spelling errors in his posts, emotionally impotent given he is resorting to venting his pent-up anger in this type of forum.

    Dingo, it’s officially time for you to get a life buddy.

  • Dan

    Salesman, I meant it more from a pain-in-the-butt / repeating-same-thing-over-and-over / annoying perspective. All three work on the same basis, although Dingo presents his views in the ridiculously entertaining level, whereas Bavaria and Wheelbut take it on a more take-me-seriously-I-am-always-right level. Slightly different methods of delivering the same sort of garbage, if you catch my drift :)

    Having said that, this is the first Dingo posts I see and I am laughing haha. The guy obviously cannot be that serious.

  • In the Know

    Hello, my name is Bob (dingos real name) and i drive a 4cyl camry sportivo
    Vrrrrrrrrrrmmm Vrrrrrrrrrrrrrmmmmm
    watch out for me, my “3cyl for performance” and “v6 for thirst” 4cyl camry is a weal weapon
    Vrrrrrrrrrrmmm Vrrrrrrrrrrrrrmmmmm.

  • Frontman

    JimBo, I don’t particularly have fond memories of government run car companies, things like BMC / Leyland and several eastern European brands have a history of turning out pure junk in the name of Govco run companies.

  • Dan

    I agree with Frontman. You will not find any governemnt owned car companies producing quality cars, anywhere in the world or throughout history. Just look at eastern europe communist era vehicles, or chinese junk. While GM is already producing enough junk, if govt was to start running it, it would probably take it back to the carby era, and gain extra 100 rattles all over it.

  • http://australiancaradvice Dingo

    Jimbo – i fail to see the funny side of billions, upon billions upon billions (did you notice i said billions not millions) of tax payers money being hopelessly spent on a insolvent sh*t fight.

    GM will eventually file for ‘FAILURE Protection’ which will be the beginning of a whole lot less of GM but other manufactuers will fill the void and recruit many displaced employees as they move in to satisfy the increase in demand for thier cars.

    When Ansett failed, Qantas and Virgin Blue eventually recruited most of the displaced employees … GM is not the be-all and end-all of the world and they will easily replaced and ironically by much better companies … not complete utter screwups like GM

  • http://honda carsgetreal

    I really think what a lot of you fail to realise is that over production in the last years are a part of this world problem .

    Car production like everything else was booming , what goes up must come down .

    Hurling abuse at various peoples favorite car co will not aleviate the problem .

    All manufactures are now on the block , heads will roll ,only the strong will survive .

    This is the 70′s all over again , the uk industry died , bad management , poor union practises , down turn in the world economy plus massive oil price hikes .

    The manufactures dont hurl abuse at each other , they respect each others problems , as they are all in the same boat .

    Best thing you can all do is go out and buy your favorite car and help get things rolling , petition the govt to give a $3000.00 buy back on all bombs used as trade ins , as the euro’s are doing .

  • Golfschwein

    HAL, you’ve got it. Google “Anti-Social Personality Disorder” and you’ll then be completely informed.

    Dan, it really is serious. The more you see of this moron, the less you will see he is normal, and it won’t be haha any more. Whatever your thoughts are on Wheelnut or Bavarian Missile, they don’t suffer from this.

  • Dan

    No doubt Golfschwein their methods of delivery are different, however all have blinkers on, and all in their mind think they’re right. I think all three are the same, just mostly saying garbage in different ways. Neither of which I’m a fan of lol! People like them probably get off on stirring others up on ze internetz too…

  • Frontman

    carsgetreal Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 6:45 pm
    Thank you!! Although I reckon over production was the largest part of the problem. I know of one car company that supplied vehicles last year to varied large purchaser companies on a use now pay later deal just so that they could keep their factory running whilst the others were being reported for having “Down Days”.
    Have a look at the back of a wheels magazine (pricing section) from 20 years ago compared to 10 years ago compared to now and see how much choice the public has! Any wonder some brands have lost numbers, but notice no single brand has picked up all those numbers?

  • Wheelnut

    Until Wedneasday the above comments are based on pure speculation.. that it what COULD happen or what MIGHT happen not what HAS Happened or hat WILL happen.

    So whilst we are gazing into our crystal balls let’s discuss what COULD happen IF they gile for Chapter 11.

    I think what could happen is the GM will most likely receive more assistance etc from the US Govt they will use tuis money to reduce their debts as well as initiate a number of futur projects for smaller more fuel efficient cars built on more”Global’ platforms like the [VEs] Zeta.

    They COULD even decide to relocate; particularly as the Overpaid American Auto Workers have refused to take a paycut inorder to keep their employer afloat not to mention their jobs.

    Their RWD cars could be made in Canada and Australia whilst their FWD cars could be built in Europe and China.

    Say what ever you like but until it ACTUALLY happens its all just speculation and until then anything is possible – who knows they might find an alternative game plan at the 11th hour – the UAW might finally realise that it’s better to have a job than no job at all and take the pay cut

  • Wheelnut

    And even IF GM do apply for Chapter 11.. Is bankruptcy such a bad thing?I mean liook what happened to Alan Bond.. He ripped hundreds of people off; made stupid decisions; wasted money [just like GM] and then went Bankrupt.

    However; 2 years later He was back ready to do business and despite his history was still able to find enough people that believed in him and invest in him again

  • Joober

    “This is the 70’s all over again , the uk industry died , bad management , poor union practises , down turn in the world economy plus massive oil price hikes .” – dunno could be the Korean Car era! watch closely as the market leaders fall on their own feet and take charge!

    Yeah Golf, Dingo takes it to the next level, funny though, but on a comparable level, I always thought the long time Toyota Paul was more on the level to Wheel, Bavarian…

  • http://caradvise.com.au Schah7

    G.M “Go Broke” and do the Whole Automotive World and the Car Enthusist a long-over-due favour.!

  • Joober

    Wheelnut – I doubt relocating would help, knowing the Yanks they are very patriotic, if they knew all their cars are made out fo the U.S. its going to cause backlash.

    In regards to bankruptcy, if the company dissolves completely I believe its a bad thing, if GM restarted in 2 years time, I think they will be way behing the 8 ball to even be considered competitive. I think the nature of the Car industry is too aggressive to take a step back and in GM’s case way too back.

  • Dan

    I find Wheelnut’s post quite amusing. Not so long ago there was the 1.4M car recall by toyota, the comments posted in there were all “toyota is going down etc etc., it’s now a definate thing, it’s now over for toyota” and so on, where it was a simple speculation due to a recall. But there were no ifs or buts from him, it was a definate thing, ie. Toyota’s finished. Here we actually have a definate failure on GM’s behalf, where it’s on the verge of the end (not too long to go, chapter 11 is a step not far from it), and somehow Wheelnut’s attitude changed to “it’s just an if”… someone is in denial it seems lol!

  • Golfschwein

    Yeah Joober, Toyota Paul was just odd, not sick.

  • Andrew M

    I cant believe so many dollars have been wasted in getting to a point they should have gone straight to.

    Chapter 11 wont be as brutal to GM as many people immediately believe.

    It will be like GM has just won a miracle makeover

    There will be some pretty serious been counters going overtime on this one figuring out how they restructure first before the announce they will file

    Blessing in disguise i reckon

  • Bavarian Missile (.)(.)

    Oi,…….. Dan, difference was they had a recall,this is just media hype of what may happen . Hes not in denial your just hoping GM will fold !

  • Bavarian Missile (.)(.)

    Dan if they fold on Wednesday you can say I told you so then…………till then spruk as much as you like baby,thats all your doing !

  • Bavarian Missile (.)(.)

    hahaha Golfy,yeah odd but I actually agreed with him sometimes. Strange thing was he was another accountant that drove a Camry…now where have I seen that before…….pftttttttttt

  • Wheelnut

    I have never been in denial.. infact I have said that because of PRick Wagoners dumb arse decisions that GM and its [unfortunate] subsidiaries would mot likely experience some difficulty.

    Which is why I suggested a number of possible solutions such as de-centralising or utilising the experience and expertise Holden Opel have to offer.

    All I can say is that GM would be a much better company if it wasn’t based in the USA

  • Joober

    BM, must be a poor sod of a accountant to be driving a camry… I would expect Aurion Presara or Lexus IS as a bare minimum…

    WheelNut, GM in the latter years yes, but if it never was a US based company, we would never had those classic 8′s of times gone by…

    As said in other posts, different companies different strategies, and obviously not all strategies can work.

  • Andrew M

    Just to elaborate on what constitutes a “viable” asset……..

    To be considered “Viable” it doesnt mean that it must turn a profit.
    It doesnt matter how much profit holden, opel and chev do or do not make, but each brands makret share will play the bigger influence.
    Sure Holden might be turning a loss of late, but in OZ they hold a market share that is solid and keeps GM’s foot in the Australian door. same can be said for Opel and Chev in relation to their regions of sale.

    If GM started pulling the pin on any of its major market players no matter what the profit or loss says, they would begin a rapid slide into non existence.

    In retail it is common practice for stores such as Woolies and Kmart to establish a store many many years before they predict they will strat to make a proift.
    They do this because they would rather sit pretty (or not so) to “mark their territory” so to speak.
    They get in early to prevent their opposition from building a client base and taking their market share.

    I know of a Kmart store near me that has been doing terrible trade for quite a while. there is also 4 other Kmart stores within 15 minutes drive from it.
    The reason they arent or dont want to close it down is because its opposition Big W would be ready to move right in……Hence stealing market share

    Market share is a very important factor in business

    the people who arent even slightly business minded are easy to spot as they are the ones saying dump holden blah blah blah, because they cant make money blah blah blah

  • Andrew M

    ^^^
    so by my method,
    Opel, Chev, Holden………. and Yep, Daewoo will survive

    its about settling for the unit movers, not so much the $$$ movers when you are looking to stabilise

  • topdog

    A simple solution would be to get that man that saved nissan from bankruptcy he turned around that company like nothing anyone would have thought whats hes name ghoun or somethinghe runs renault to get him in to reform the joint

  • topdog

    carlos thats his name i think hell fix the jiont up

  • Wheelnut

    Andrew M – I couldn’t agfree with you more in relation to your coment about a viable asset. I also liked your example with Big W and K-mart.. it’s all about presence in the market place 10% of someting is better than 10% of nothing

    In relation to which GM car companies survive you’re also right..

    A couple of months ago [just before christmas] GM released a statement outlingin their plans [intentions] to restructure [stramline] their operations as they were required to do so as part of the auto industry enquiry which was held by the US Congress inorder to get the financial assistance.

    It says that in the end GM will consist of Chevrolet Opel and Holden.

    Which is even more evident by the fact that immeadialtey after receiving the first installment of the bailout Package GM approved a number of nrew car plans including Holdens to build a new small car – Now would GM do that if they intended to sell Holden in a couple of months time?

    I realise that the plans weren’t approved because GM revceived the cash but its a strange coincidence don’t you think?

    The fact Holden was given the green light to build a small car is another reason why I think GM could be considering moving more of their operations out of the USA

  • Dan

    Carlos Ghosn, Topdog :)

  • Wheelnut

    Topdog I think youre talking about Carlos Ghosn who is the current CEO of Renault-Nissan..

    Why not ask Aussie Tom Phillips who helped turn Toyotas fortunes around in Australia [not to mention their image] before moving on to Mitsubishi
    At Mitsubuishi he had similar plans – including making the 380 RWD but were Knocked back by Tokyo. Yet industry experts saying that if Phillips was allowed to do what he did at Toyota; Mitsubishi would most likely still be in Australia

    The other option is to ask Jac nasser who also helped save Ford before he was shafted by Edsel Ford Jr Snr Jr Snr Jr

  • Limited Slip

    Wheelnut…..Just because GM will go out of business soon they still carry on normal everyday operations until it happens. Thats why Holden have been given the small car program, even though it probably wont happen now.

  • Dan

    If only 380 was RWD, there would have been a totally different outcome for Mitsu Australia for sure. FWD sucks…

  • SteveC

    Ah well. The way I see it is that people won’t buy your stuff if it’s crap. They’re only going down the drain because no one is buying their shit and the staff upstairs are lining their pockets with nice green pieces of paper they call “money”.

    Poor design, bad management and greed will eventually die. GM’s time has finally come where the poor design, bad management and greed have caught up.

    SteveC

  • JEKYL & HYDE

    wednesday is sure shaping up as an interesting day…

    i would love to know whats going on at holden right now.i reckon it will make interesting reading in the future.december-holden slashes prices,sale’s spike,it runs right out of stock,then…it goes on holidays for a month,and EVERYBODY goes on holidays.it re-opens end of jan with a severely reduced output,its yards still chocka full of g8′s.then it cancels its guild(sales awards)cancels viva,and starts giving away captiva and colorado.is no news good news?are any dealers worried yet?

  • RoFlmaTiC

    Wheelnut, the fact that Holden is viable doesn’t necessarily mean that GM will hold onto it. They will be looking to downsize and restructure, and if Holden is really viable, they will be getting top dollar for it! So its really a catch 22

  • BK

    It had to happen for GM. They will have to close up or be taken over by some asian company. Looks like the end for holden to. Looks like Ford is the only one that can survive these tough times Ford 20 championships Holden only 15. It says it all…… Lowndsy for 2009 championship

  • Golfschwein

    BK writes, “Looks like the end for holden to.”

    That should be “too”, Sunshine. Get your English right if you want your arguments and opinions to hold up.

  • Cupid Stunt

    Too write golfie…ha ha

  • Cupid Stunt

    Hey Dingo “OH WHAT A WARM AND FUZZY FEELING” does this mean along with your social personality malfunction that you have a bladder problem as well. Seems the beer is talking again.
    Toyota’s new logo should be “5 million recalls in 5 years”.
    Welcome back Bozo

  • Golfschwein

    Yoomah, Cupid Stunt. Yoomah!

  • BJ

    Andrew M,

    You have lost the context. We aren’t talking about a normal business environment; we are talking about a court-controlled administration. The company no longer makes the decisions; it has to reach a deal with its creditors for a reduction in its liabilities. The creditors want their money back and GM would likely be forced to sell non-core viable assets and shut down loss-making assets. Maintaining market share at the price of further losses won’t be an option.

    Holden is non-core; GM would likely retreat to its North American and European operations. If Holden is viable then it would be sold. But ask yourself this question; is anyone going to buy it as a stand alone operation? Viewed as a business case on its own, Holden is hopeless. It hasn’t made any money in nearly five years; and the market conditions in which it last made money are unlikely to be replicated any time soon. If it can’t make any money then there would have to be some other reason to buy it; to get RWD expertise that nobody seems to want? There isn’t one.

    If you think a Chapter 11 process will result in Holden running on chalking up further losses solely in the name of maintaining market share then you are dreaming. And you clearly don’t understand in corporate insolvency.

  • Wheelnut

    BJ Saying that Building and Selling Cars [Which is what Holden do] is a Non Core business as far as GM is concerned is like saying International Air Travel is a Non Core business for Qantas; selling Hamburgers is a Non Core business for McDonalds or that S-e-x is a non core business for a Prostitute..

  • BJ

    Its non-core because GM doesn’t need to build and sell right-hand drive RWD cars in Australia; in fact GM doesn’t need to be in Australia at all. If GM goes into Chapter 11, the only question is for how much longer it will remain in Australia.

  • Frontman

    Sorry people, but you have me a tad confused.
    So many of the responses here are saying that is would be agood thing for GM to leave and Holden to go down????
    It shows how little understanding that there is in the manufacturing business in Australia and how closely entwined they all are. Holden makes parts for Ford & Toyota, Toyota makes parts for Holden & Ford, Ford makes parts for Holden & Toyota. Take one of these three away and the everyones business case looks less viable. Take one of these away and then the small parts manufacturers & the extrusion people and the wheel people will struggle to remain viable. If we lose those small parts suppliers and have to import from overseas then the loacal manufacturing becomes less viable. Once these start to happen yes Ford will pull out, if not beaten in it’s exit by Toyota it would be closely followed. Without manufacturing in this country then everything will be imported, the unemployment would force inflation up and the Euro & Japanese vehicles would become to expensive leaving us coverting Koreans as desirable whilst saving hard to buy a chinese or Indian vehicle.
    This is the extreme scenario but a very real one for Australia as we are such a small economy.

  • FAST FORDS

    GM-Daewooo-Holden will save themselfs, just like ToyBota did, maybe some more brainwashing ads to make us feel sorry for all their stupid mistakes should do the trick..

    SAAB anyone ? >>>> wouldn’t touch one in my lifetime.

  • http://skyline The Salesman

    FR
    I think you have answered your own query Frontman. We are a small economy and in the past we have proven to be quite a resilient one as well. I think we need to detach ourselves from being dependent on large global company’s and develop our own industry with an Aussie only car. Possibly government owned. If we don’t then your assumption “extreme scenario” won’t be far from the truth.
    I suggest we call it the MT, what do you think?

  • Dan

    Salesman, no govt owned car copmpanies thanks. Have you ever driven a Lada?

  • axe

    Sheesh, what a load of apples.

    GM will get the money.

    Chapter 11 most likely July or so.

    Can’t wait to read this blog when they kill the Corvette, will be better than the circus!

    Wheelnut comparing GM to Alan Bond seems about right :)

  • axe

    “Its non-core because GM doesn’t need to build and sell right-hand drive RWD cars in Australia; in fact GM doesn’t need to be in Australia at all. If GM goes into Chapter 11, the only question is for how much longer it will remain in Australia.” BJ

    This is spot on, its only an Oz platform in reality, 30000 units to the middle east, the US market does not want them, rwd is dead at GM, a good platform that the world market does not want.

    Its pretty obvious to me that Holden are building a small car as they are going to have the production capacity(ie, reduced ve sales)longer term…well think about it.

    Wheelnut if they cannot export the platform in any great numbers, if Holden is losing market share in Oz, if Holden is not making any money In Oz, how is it of any value to GM?

    By the way, a transfer of funds back to it’s parent company is not an expense item, its a capital item(balance sheet) which does not effect profit or loss in any way. Please don’t add it back, thats just plain BS.

  • Frontman

    MT???
    Ummm no. Cannot think of any reason why I would call a vehicle MT ;-) (bearing in mind that MT is a way of letting your wholesaler know that the car has no air or steer thus eMpTy)
    Government run car industry hey? Just like the Education Industry and the Health industry, The Road and Infrastructure industry??? Sheeesh next thing you’ll think we should all dress like the red head ;p

  • Dan

    I think Salesman could be a closet communist :)

  • Andrew M

    BJ,
    Ill start with this,
    so which of GM’s brands would you see viable???

    remember that only a profit turning brand should be considered viable according to you.

    please list the viable and profit turning GM brands….

  • axe

    Andrew in its major markets Gm is competing against itself, chev/buick/pontiac/saturn, all divisions incurring fixed costs, dev costs, blabla.

    The question is what divisions/brands could make money if they clean their act up(union included, I reckon keepers are Chevrolet, Cadillac, GMC(all trucks?) and Saturn.

    In terms of Holden, GM does not want its RWD platform, either we will see big changes at holden, such as fwd and serious reduction in platforn design and dev expenditure, it has to make money, or it will be sold.

  • Dan

    I agree with the comments that viable does not necessarily mean it has to have made profits. As long as there is a steady demand for the product, and a large enough market share, the business can be viable. Of course would need to be restructured accordingly, costs would need to be cut somewhere etc.

  • BJ

    Andrew M,

    Trying reading the earlier posts; I have never said profitability is the only measure of viability.

    The brands who can fund their continuing losses are viable. Those who cannot are not viable.

    If Holden’s own revenue isn’t self-sustaining then it needs support. Precisely who do you think is going to fund Holden’s future losses; because if GM goes into Chapter 11 it certainly won’t.

    You don’t seem to understand that a Chapter 11 filing is administration in insolvency. You know what that means; GM can’t pay its debts.

  • Wheelnut

    Axe sorry to tell you this but Saturn wasn’t mentioned in the list of Car Companies that GM says it will keep – when they made the announcement oulining their restructuring plans in December last year.. yet Holden was.

    Why? well Bob Lutz said that they could [finally] see that Holden has alot of potential to offer as well as a wealth of experience and expertise – particularly in terms of medium/large RWD cars.. he said the Holden operations [which includes the factory and the new design studio]
    is one of the most “flexible” he has ever seen in the world

    He also said that Holden helps GM maintain a “presence” in the Pacific Region….So GM will be Holden on to Holden

  • Andrew M

    BJ,
    well to add a bit of humour and lighten the mood, wont the aussie government keep funding holdens losses?? ha ha ha

    down to it………
    doesnt the way of self funding losses come from profits???
    therefore it would mean you only anticipate profit making brands to live on

    what i was getting at when i asked which ones turn a profit is if you have a look through the GM closet and toss all those that made a loss, there wont be any GM.

    They are forming a restructuring plan. The niche brands will go even if they are/were the only ones turning a profit. Why?? if you only kept brands such as Hummer and Saturn for eg, they wouldnt have enough market share to even exist.

    Without market share they cant turn anything around.
    To stabilise they first need some “volume brands” to work with. GM keeping holden has nothing to do with “RWD expertise” or “flexible assembly” aswell as nothing to do with what profit they do or dont turn.
    GM has valuable market share in the aussie market through the “Holden” brand.

  • Andrew M

    Come on Dingo,
    they have a wealth of knowledge in being able to sell them to the public.
    surely you must agree that is a solid trait on their side???
    ha ha ha

  • Andrew M

    you either dont read my posts, or simply have zero comprehension skills.

    heavy crap coming my way???? WHY???
    im on the bus that has been saying for ages that they should have filed 6 months ago and not “passed go” in collecting government money

  • axe

    Andrew wtf are you on about, stick to kmart and big wally or whatever.

    Wheelnut, bob who?

  • axe

    GM has valuable market share in the aussie market through the “Holden” brand. – Andrew

    Yes 13% and shrinking, and Oz is such a HUGEEEE market isnt it. Gee 1 million cars last year, maybe 800,000 this year, get a grip.

  • axe

    so last year holden sold 140,000 out of GM’s what 10 million sales, you do the math.

  • BK

    das ist gut Golfschwein. Ihr Englisch ist wie Ihr Chinese. Gebildet im Porzellan und durch Taiwan errichtet. Sie können unser Klassenzimmerlehrer des Grades 3 heute sein und uns alle zeigen, wie man Querwortpuzzlespiele tut. Tun wir müssen Ihnen einen Apfel holen, um uns zu zeigen, wie wir auf Sie alles stolze sind. Ohh ein welches glaubendes Golfschwein. hohoho

  • opel

    ..see that Holden has alot of potential to offer as well as a wealth of experience and expertise – particularly in terms of medium/large RWD cars..wheelnut

    Who cares, nobody wants the platform, newsflash, G8 is dead. NOBODY WANTS THIS PLATFORM.

    GM has killed rwd dev in the US. Bob Lutz is no more, he took his pension, and thanks for the mmmmmmmoney.

  • Bavarian Missile (.)(.)

    BK says “that is well gulf pig. Their English is like your Chinese. Formed in the porcelain and by Taiwan establishes. They can be our classroom teacher of the degree of 3 today and show us all, how one does transverse word puzzle plays. Do we must you an apple get, in order to show us, how we are all proud of you. Ohh a which believing gulf pig. hohoho”

    Ok what was that all about ?

  • Wheelnut

    After reading the above comments all I can say is “schadenfreude”

  • Bret

    Alex,
    Holden, Ford Australia and Toyota Australia will all survive. They will ALL either be making cars here, or ALL importing only.

    Of Holden’s sales only about 50% are locally manufactured, the rest are imported Deawoos.
    Ford sales 60% locally built, Toyota 17.5% locally built.

    Read into those numbers what you will.

  • BK

    you almost got it right bavarian. ask Golfschwein hes our classroom teacher today. haha.

  • Andrew M

    Axe,
    I knew business priciples 101 would have been over your head.

    we are talking basic business models.
    they way you spin numbers or they way you interpret them is irrelevant

  • max

    Andrew, no need to explain basic business models to me.

    Let me provide you with a simple model.

    GM competes against itself in major markets, Saturn, Buick, Chev, Pontiac and has done so for a long time, it incurs fixed costs and development costs in each division, this is called duplication, not to mention.
    Its agreements with unions are killing it, a little thing which is often overlooked is that GM willingly signed these agreements.

    1.GM, net liabilities(not assets) of around 60 billion dollars.
    2. US Taxpayer loans to GM of approx 13 billion dollars.
    3. US taxpayer loans to GMAC of approx 6 billion dollars.
    4. Swedish Tax payer loans to GM AND Ford of approx 3.1 Billion dollars.
    5. Canadian taxpayer loans of approx 3.3 billion dollars to GM, Ford & Chrysler, GM have not taken these funds as yet.
    6. Oz taxpayer loans to all producers of approx 3.2 Billion dollars re green scheme.

    As for Holden, Oz is not a major market for GM, reps about 2% of total GM sales. RWD is dead at GM, its a platform that GM cannot sell in great numbers, read demise of Pontiac(G8 is dead), 30000 units sold to the middle east is great, but..
    Due to the billion dollars spent on the Zeta platform, Holden is making losses(they can’t export it in sufficient numbers), the current market will ensure they continue to do so(they will be in good company).
    Now just to hep get this thru your head, the above comments re Holden equally apply to Ford and Toyota.

    Now as to your comment “we are talking basic business models.” I hardly think basic business models applies in GM case, but here is one – they are f$#@$ and NEED to go chapter 11.

    Wheelnut, you really need to get over Bob Lutz and we will be Holden onto Holden stuff, maybe they will, the point is though, they don’t need to as Holden simply, because of sales volume is really not relevant, same with Ford and Toyota Oz(read TRD).

  • max

    1.GM, net liabilities(not assets) of around 60 billion dollars.
    2. US Taxpayer loans to GM of approx 13 billion dollars.
    3. US taxpayer loans to GMAC of approx 6 billion dollars.
    4. Swedish Tax payer loans to GM AND Ford of approx 3.1 Billion dollars.
    5. Canadian taxpayer loans of approx 3.3 billion dollars to GM, Ford & Chrysler, GM have not taken these funds as yet.
    6. Oz taxpayer loans to all producers of approx 3.2 Billion dollars re green scheme.

    Andrew I’m not making this up, I am not spinning these numbers they are real, we are talking billions of dollars here, before all this is finished,the Japs will be taking taxpayer loans as well. Think about this and free trade, how can toyota compete with GM when GM has so far received almost 20 billion dollars in taxpayer loans, toyota is being forced to use its own cash reserves(built from profits) to survive, whilst GM and Chrysler are being GIVEN money, also please understand this, these loans will NEVER be repaid.

  • Andrew M

    Max,
    I know what you are saying, but i think you are just shooting it one further.

    it all strarted when “BJ” said/implied that the only viable products would be those that currently turn a profit.

    what i was getting at is that they need to focus on brands that hold a decent market share in certain regions. They dont currently have profits, so what else do they do??? they must choose brands to take forward that can potentially become profitable, and the biggest factor in that is chosing brands that currently have volume.

    all the numbers you spin are irrelevant. Whether or not RWD is dead is irrelevant.

    What im saying is they need to pick brands to go forward with that can sell numbers in their respective regions.
    Yes, as you already said, the duplication needs to go first.
    Toyota doesnt really have much duplication, hence they arent as affected,
    Ford has already culled duplication and is working further to make each model more efficient, hence why they arent in as bad of a position as GM (and yes i know it even goes further than that too)

  • max

    Andrew GM is a mass producer, so yes it needs volume.
    Some of you guys seem to think that OZ is an important market, the reality is, its not, as evidenced by the fact that the OZ market contributes 2% to GM’s sales. Same with Toyota and Ford, indeed to any manufacturer.

    You cannot substitute “regions” for volume, there is only volume for mass producers.

    “all the numbers you spin are irrelevant. Whether or not RWD is dead is irrelevant.” Andrew

    I am not spinning numbers, they are reality. Those number represent what happens when a company like GM loses its way. They are in fact an outcome.

    In fact, the Falcon and VE highlight this issue, development costs are substantial(partic VE),limited exports for VE, none for Falcon, tiny market in global terms, can’t recover platform costs, all equals lose money.

    The VE and Falcon represents duplication, why, RWD is dead, tiny market share(global sense), small or no exports, see, both Ford and GM would make more money by converting and shipping a product here, sales wont be as high, but they would not lose money(one less platform, less duplication), they would also be supporting an existing division of both GM and Ford(opel, wharever).

    The fact is, Holden and Falcon cannot generate the numbers to support their existence. Holden and Ford are not “players” they are extra’s only.

  • Andrew M

    Max,
    i never said you made the umbers up did I??
    i simply stated they were irrelevant to the topic being discussed

    you have gone off n a tangent, and now that you have come down a little bit, from wha i mak out, the only thing you disagree with me about is that Holden is or can be made viable???
    why didnt you just tell me that to strat with???

    And on platform sustainability…..
    how may years has the commodore and falcon been in OZ???
    and after proving a history of stainability you now say they arent sustainable????
    they seem to have done fine in the past when it came to recouping development costs.

    yes they are moing less numbers nowdays, but they are starting to adjust their developmental budgets to compensate particularly in fords case)

    so whats your opinion????
    Automotie manufacturing cant be sstained in OZ after many ears of having been able to because our market versus the rest of the world doesnt even register????

  • Andrew M

    ^^^
    ooops a few typos there, i thought i caught em all….