Two Victorian motorists take speed cameras to court
January 29, 2009 by Matt Brogan
Two Victorian motorists who revealed how mobile speed cameras were unreliable have begun a legal battle to show Victoria’s fixed cameras can’t be trusted either.
John King and Claus Salger say thousands of Victorians are wrongly fined for speeding each year caught by fixed cameras that are poorly installed, calibrated and maintained.
But they say the millions of dollars in revenue at stake mean police are using every legal mechanism available to deny them secret information that will help uncover a public scandal.
At Heidelberg Magistrates’ Court yesterday, Mr King applied for a subpoena against Victoria Police to obtain a number of speed camera technical documents that, he says, will help him challenge a 2007 fine.
He told the court he successfully challenged a speeding fine in his previous case after he and Mr Salger, who acts as his technical expert, gained access to technical manuals through Freedom Of Information rules.
Barrister Robert Taylor, for the police, argued the subpoenaed documents would not help Mr King’s defence. He said Mr King had not set out to prove his fine was wrong, but that fixed speed cameras were generally unreliable.
The decision on the application will be announced on February 24.
In 2007, Mr King and Mr Salger each won battles to overturn mobile speed camera fines. By comparing police photos with images in a technical manual, Mr Salger worked out that his 22-year-old Nissan Patrol had apparently accelerated faster than the space shuttle.
He was allegedly caught driving at 66km/h in a 60km/h zone at the corner of Gardenia St and Doncaster Rd, North Balwyn.
“History shows us that these fixed cameras are notoriously unreliable,” Mr King said.
Outside court yesterday, the pair said they were battling on behalf of all Victorian drivers.
Source: Herald-Sun
Print it: 
If they are proven correct and the cameras are un reliable. Wouldn’t the Australian government have to over turn every fine ever issued? Money and points. I remember a case in Queensland were an elderly women was fined for speeding in her old Datsun. She protested and proved (when the car was driven by a professional on a race track) her car couldn’t (even in the best conditions) reach the speed the camera said she was going.
About time these revenue collection devices were taken to task. There are so many variables and most people that have proper justification to dispute these fines simply can’t afford to take a day off work to challenge the Police.
It’s mostly a user pays justice system here in Australia which makes it more cost effective to pay a fine even if you are not guilty.
I absoloutely agree anthony, I have been fined before when I can absoloutely garuntee that I was under the limit, and I told the officer that I was going to take it to court and he said it was my work against his. And I have had a couple of fines before so I knew I would just have to pay more by taking it to court and losing so I just paid up.
how is it that all the young graffiti artists manage to vandalise everything in their path,and yet leave these camera’s alone?
Speed cameras are useless when it comes to saving lives. Studies have proven this. If they were serious about saving lives they would have more speed cameras on corners, outside schools, and at notorious black spots, not just on good roads with heavy traffic and minimal crashes. I think that police would get so much more respect if they respected us – everyone knows they are just for revenue, but they will always deny this. I wonder if they have considered just having point deductions for speeding and no fine. I’d consider paying police levy per year similar to the ambulance one. Maybe not as much as the ambulance levy, but if the police are so determined with speed cameras they obviously must need the money. Why not just be honest about it and spread out the support they need over the whole tax-paying population? Surely it would only be about $20 – $50 a year, and that is better than 25% of the population paying $400 worth of speeding fines per year which doesn’t do anything for saving lives.
Good luck to them for taking on “the system”.
Vic. GovCo is a lot like the NAZI Party, never done any wrong……
Vic. GovCo will spend $1000’s of our money and they will win in the end, the legal system always sides with them.
Best of luck anyway
Cheers
F-0
This might be a trivial comparison but if saving lives is their claim then why don’t we see people fined for smoking a pack a day.
Cigarettes cause over 19,000 deaths in Australia each year, car crashes around 1,700 yet you don’t see fixed cameras at the doors of shopping centres or out the front of the pub.
I see what your getting at Matt. But you generally do see cameras out the front of pubs..
@Howie-VL – Pub cameras are not monitored by police or govt. I think that was what Matt was referring to.
Remember the Poll Tax riots in England under Thatcher? The poms finally told Thatcher enough is enough, burnt a few cars and hey, no more Poll Tax!
What about a few riots here to put an end to this blatantly un-Australian taxation theft?
Because rioting is un-australian. Remember the Sydney riots? Those people do not represent me in any way shape or form. Do not repay evil with evil. Do however protest any true injustice where ever you see it. And good luck to these men if they are infact right!
This article doesn’t give us enough information on how they manage to prove the camera wrong.
And by the way, acceleration and speed are two different things. Come one….if you’re writing an article, write it correctly and do your research.
Simon
What about the Eureka Stockade down in Ballarat, to fight against oppressive government mining fees of the day? I would put forward its very Australian to stand up for what you believe in! (The Sydney riots however were ugly as they were based on racism.)
Maybe the time has come to get organised against the Governments on this?
Don’t you just love it when a senior Police officer is interviewed after a car accident and he/she seems so shocked at the tragedy that just happened. (great acting) We are told time and time again that the Police won’t tolerate this type of behavour and the law will get tougher on us. (they need more revenue). Now flip over to the speed revenue raisers (police) & (cameras) hiding all over the place supposedly protecting our lives by giving fines for 3 or so Km/s over the posted speed limit. How thoughtful of them. Vic roads spending millions on stupid scare tactic ads, and the list goes on. Why dose the governments ASA standard state that any speedo reading is legal within + or – 10% and jet the police can still issue fines within that bracket. Again REVENUE..Australian politicians have stumbled on a goldmine and won’t get rid of it in a hurry. I am no different to the other average person but my solution would be to raise the speed limit on selected freeways to 130Km/h totaly safe in todays cars and most well kept older ones. Leave the speed limit on the Ring Rd, Eastern Fwy and Eastlink at 100Km/h don’t change it all over the place, no need for it. Take those stupid 60Km/h roadworks limits off the road while not working on it. Keep all trucks in the left hand lane where they belong. Fine those day dreamers hogging the right lane heavily. But most of all don’t hand out licences to anyone without thorough pre testing and I don’t mean on that stupid computer vic road uses. Accidents will always happen but by frustrating the majority of drivers who are responsible road users will only worsen the situation and sadly will not reduce the road toll only increase the revenue raised in the name of safety. Good luck to these 2 people who have taken on a massive task hope they prevail.
I’d love to be a fly on the wall around this case ha ha ha
it sounds like the myth busters taking on the law.
this is even better than when they blew up that caravan, or when they tried to kill someone by flicking cards
Ivan, indeed acceleration is different to velocity. Good sense should see you taking text for what is is. The article informs that according to the speed camera, his vehicle accelerated faster than the space shuttle. This i believe was surely the essence of their first case. The acceleration required to break gravity, if memory is correct, must be > 9.8 metres per second, per second. Or in a more digestible way, an acceleration of > 9.8 N/Kg. Simply, for each kilogram of mass, the Earth exerts a force of 9.8 Newtons. Guessing his Nissan weighs in at roughly, say 2500kg, and the Saturn V, which almost 40 years ago propelled man into the infinite beyond, weighed in at a whopping 3 million kg. If the camera was able capture the car accelerating at the same speed as the rocket, then that guy needs to contact Team Vodafone quicksmart. Better still, pick up some fake “real” GTR badges from Ebay and call it the new Skyline. Or rather, kiss the Skyline good bye, i’m on my way to Neverland to meet up with cranky Ivan…
last night at 2am i went and smashed up 1 fixed speed camera. Why dont we all go and just smash em up. Whos gonna catch us doin it. At least there is one less faulty speed camera on the road now.
BK,
I don’t condone your actions in anyway, shape, or form.
The fact that you disn’t even ask me if I wanted you to do one for me as well, is quite frankly, very rude! :-)
This has appearently happened quite a bit in the UK.
I recently went by a speed camera at approx 55kph in a 70 zone. (I can’t disclose how I knew he was there…) Just gave him a little “toot” on the horn to say “hi”, & he flashed me!
No fine ever appeared in the mail; he would have had a nice picture of my SS at 55 in a 70 zone. Hard to prove “undue noise” with a photo. :-)
Why don’t we all remember our manners, & give them all a little “honk to say Hi” as we go by? Just to say thanks for saving all out lives.
Incidently, in Qld on Australia Day, the Police Commissioners’ car was pulled over & booked for speeding, on the way to a Road Safety Conference. I sh_t you not. 72 in a 60 zone.
His Police Drivers’ excuse was that he thought it was an 80 zone.
So, a professional driver, a policeman, didn’t know what speed zone he was in, OR, he’s holding everyone up by doing 72 in an 80 zone!
Even if he cops the fine, he should be suspended or sacked for inattentive driving, & endangering our Police Commissioner, who was a passenger in the car.
In Qld, “every K over, is a Killer”, so if he’d killed the Police Commissioner, think of the cost to the tax payer.
Have a read & a laugh here:http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/comments/0,23836,24963537-952,00.html
john king… claus salger… how old r u? grow up… stop being a lair…. you got caught. just pay your fine and shut up.
Jinx
You must work for the Revenue Office.
One of the funniest photo’s I’ve seen in a long time was a plastic rubbish bin up-turned and placed over the top of a fixed speed camera! Sometimes the best solutions are the simplest, hilarious!
As fpr-typhoon says, if the various State Gov’s put the millions and millions and millions of dollars that they spend on media propaganda and brain washing (to build a case for justifying revenue cameras) into effective driver training – less people will die.
Agree with Jinx,on the two occasions I have been caught it was a fair cop.
The reason I was caught was I wandered over the speed by 10ks due to my inattention probably the most common cause of carnage.
Jackie Stewart, I’m just saying that acceleration is different from speed. I’m not saying that these 2 guys are wrong.
And anyway, to match the earth’s gravity you need to have the same (average) acceleration as 0-100km/h in 2.8sec. I’m pretty sure an average road car can’t match that.
Ivan, i think as noted in JasonPee’s rant, that evidently the police comissioners clout can match that speed. 0-no ticket, in no time at all! No doubt the offending camera was issued with a ticket for being an upstart. It was apparently removed and recomissioned outside NSW State Parliarment, where no activity has ever been recorded.
Good luck to them but don’t expect the ruling to affect anyone else unless they take out their own lawsuits against the powers, by then the nobs will have chnaged the legislation to stitch you lot up even further. So stop dreaming drive slower and then the filth will get bored (if they have brains) stting next to the road all day doing sod all.
Following on from Fpr-Typhoon’s comments about speedos (not swim trunks) there must be a conspiracy btween the manufacturers and the governments with speedo calibration. In this day and age surely the technology exists to make 100% accurate speedos. After all Police cars HAVE to have them so why not us!!!
I quickly put that speed camera in a head lock . I then put it in a figure four leg lock so it wouldnt get away from me. I get my knife out and slit the cameras throat. I watch it scream out in pain as other motorist cheered me on. The End.
Well people after my hissy fit a few days ago I can now confirm that on friday I got a very nice letter from the civic compliance center. It seems that the fixed camera on the Wellington road bridge East link took a liking to the rear end of my Falcon and decided to take an ever lasting photo. isn’t love sweet. I was alledgedly driving at 108 Km/h but because my falcon was flirting with the camera they decided to deduct 3 K’s so now I will have to pay a fine of $265.00 and lose 3 demerit points (SHIT YOU NOT).
All this while I had my cruise control on being fully aware that there are fixed cameras there and use the freeway twice a day to and from work. I will question this with the proper authorities and fill you in on the outcome.
by refering to it as speeding infers that your guilty of it
already. How can i do 70 in an 80 zone,and then 70 in a 60 zone
and be ignored in one instance and in the other told im a
dangerous criminal when its exactly the same velocity.which
part of 70kmh is safe and which part is dangerous.thats why
i hate it being called speeding. as for me i never ever
ever speed….but i have exceded a posted limit