GM cancels Holden global RWD platform
January 16, 2009 by George Skentzos
Overseas interest in GM Holden’s billion dollar baby is no more, with General Motors global product development vice-chairman Bob Lutz announcing a halt to all future rear-wheel-drive large-car development for North America.
The current Pontiac G8 sedan and Chevrolet Camaro were to be just the first of many Australian exports destined for the US market as part of a global portfolio based on the Holden-developed Zeta architecture.
However increasingly frugal fuel-economy legislation combined with the global economic crisis has made the Zeta architecture near redundant in the current market climate.
“The strategy we had a few years ago of basically deriving a whole sweeping global portfolio off the Australian Zeta architecture … frankly, we have had to abandon that dream,” Mr Lutz said.”
“This is because, whether you are in the United States or in China, fuel economy mandates are getting more and more severe, and we just could not base our strategy on doing relatively large and relatively heavy rear-wheel-drive cars.”
The first casualty of this decision came with the cancellation of the Pontiac G8 ST last week – just months before it was due to arrive in showrooms across North America.
The future of its sedan sibling at this stage is far more certain, with Mr Lutz revealing the fate of the Pontiac G8 in the US relies completely on GM’s strategic review of the ailing brand.
“We’ve said that we are going to focus Pontiac down to one or two entries – and for the time being one of the two entries will be the G8, the other being the Pontiac Vibe, and of course the Solstice Roadster and Coupe – and that’s basically the Pontiac line-up.”
This decision will not affect recently announced plans to develop and assemble a next-generation small car at GM Holden’s Elizabeth plant in South Australia, an initiative prioritised by managing director and CEO Mark Reuss to ensure the future viability of the Australian icon.
“Holden has basically committed to localising a compact car for Australia’s future because we see that is where the growth is,” said Mr Reuss.
Mr Lutz also commented that the next-generation Holden Commodore would arrive as scheduled for the Australian market in the next few years and would continue to use the Zeta architecture.
Source: GoAuto
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Oh no…
typical of the yanks,they wouldn’t know a good thing if it bit them on the bum.if they simply called the g8 a chevy “something”,it would take off.as much as people dislike toyota,you have to admire the fact that they have global platforms(i.e. can make the same car anywhere)
so the yanks are finally worried about fuel economy.i guess that’s why they voted the f150 the best ute,and they don’t want the g8st,our best ute(sarcasm intended)
this all sounds like b.s.to me.why wouldn’t they put the more efficient motors in the ve now?if the weights too heavy,design it lighter.a vx is the same size as a ve.it was heaps lighter…
Well… I guess that means there won’t be any completely new platforms? Just updates :(
Well it was expected given Ford made a similar Announcement regarading their future RWD projects which Ford Oz was involved with
Things could change once Holden introduces 4cyl; turbo and diesel 6cyl Commodores
However; that doesn’t mean the end of the Commodore or Holden; [sorry to disappoint all you Toyo-philes out there] as Lutzy said they will continue to develop the Zeta Platform just as they did with the olde Rekord Platform which the VB to VL Commodores were built on.
Not only that but Holden plans to make the Commodore a more compact car which means that they could resort back to the Alpha platform which the Torana TT-36 Concept Car is built on.
If GM [Rick Wagoner] has any sense they will simply import the Commodore as a replacement for one of the existing Chevrolet models.. it uses a chevy engine for a start
Wow it seems Holden’s intention on relying on a very large RWD car for their future profits was not the correct one.
Who would have thought that was possible?
Surprises never cease
The reason GM gave Holden the go ahead to build the Zeta platform is because they could see its pottential use as a global platform which other cars could be built on cars including the Corvette the Camaro and the Cadillac CTS Sedan.. So why aren’t they doing it ?
GM wanted Holden to use the Sigma Platform for the new Commodore. At the time Denny Mooney was CEO at Pontiac and he couldn’t understand why Holden engineers knocked it back. Then when Mooney became CEO at Holden he admitted it was the best RWD Platofrm in the GM Line Up because of its flexxibility and its performance/handling characterisitics
This does nothing but confirms my opinion that Rick Wagoner is a typically insular ignorant narrow-minded short-sighted dumb a–e American.
Time for a reality check, OZ-car nuts.
Australia has the smallest indigenous carmaking industry in the world. The Australian car industry is also geared to the fastest-shrinking market segment in the world. Not only that, but two of the three manufacturers in Australia are dependent on American parent companies who are in dire straits.
How can anyone in their wildest dreams contemplate that Australia will still be manufacturing cars in ten years from now, even in the unlikely event that both GM and Ford are still in business?
What remains of the Global car business will by then be supplying all markets from high-volume factories in their source countries (except for highly-protected developing markets).
That’s what happens in an environment of free trade, no local protection, and a Global recession that takes no prisoners.
I bet in the distant future Ford and GM could merge!
So you die hard commodore spankers reckon that even though the yanks are pulling rear wheel drive cars from GM (Globally made by GMH now)… and Ford did the same thing a few days ago… but you still think the Aussie Commodore will kick on… You’ll be driving Astra’s soon, if you are lucky… oh no wait.. Holden decided on those “fantastic” Daewoo front wheel drive cars, didn’t they…
Muahahahahahahahahahaah
Suddenly those “POS” FWD Aurions must look pretty damn good !!!!
If GMH don’t get a turbo diesel real soon, and switch it to front wheel drive… kiss the commodore good bye !
TOYOTA, YOU LISTENING ????? TURBO DIESEL !!!!
Inevitable!
The only surprising aspect is the number of people who seem who to think that Holden can fight the tide and continue to base its business on large RWD cars.
Well the writing has been on the wall for a while, i’m amazed they are still talking up a new Commodore in the future. If the Falcon is to become the Taurus, I wonder what kind of car the future Commodore would be?
This wasn’t because the product wasn’t up to the task thats for sure. Just bad timing and marketing.
Tom,the only real and true comment made in the last 5 blogs……
How long do you fools think this down turn in the economy will last ? Not enough to turn Australian manufacturers into FWD fools……..If its good enough for the Germans still why do you think Australia will follow ?
Based on the Yanks not going ahead with their plans ? You guys clearly dont run a business yourself do you ?
What makes people buy cars at all ????????? Good marketing ! You only have to look at Toyota to see that!
Anyone that thinks that a Camry/Aurion is a smaller car than a Falcon or Commodore and its has better fuel economy than either deserves to drive the most BORING car in the world,but hey I wont sink to that level!
Yay the end of bogan production is near.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Based on what Jon ? Clarify what is bogan production ?
Jon – which car company makes the “Bogan”
What does it look like?
Is it a sedan a coupe or a ute?
Is it a 4 cylinder 6 cylinfer or V8?
Is it FWD RWD or AWD?
Is it naturally aspirated turbo or supercharged?
Bob Lutz revealed the fate of the Pontiac G8 in the U.S. relies completely on GM’s review of the ailing brand.
All I can say in relation to Pontiac; is if it were a horse I’d shoot it… the same goes for Hummer Buick & Saab
If Holden knew what was good for them and their future survival in the country, they would’ve invested that $1b they spent on the VE commodore into developing the Torana platform 4 years ago.
This is all pure speculation anyway……because unlike FORD, GM wont be around in a few months time anyway…….
NO GM = NO HOLDEN
Not long to go now. We need better cars in this world
If Falcon goes the same way, Nascar, oops I mean V8 Supercars will soon only be found in the history books. Bring back the real touring cars and the Australian Touring Car Championship!!!
It astounds me the amount of people who view the possible demise of thousands of Australian jobs as something worth celebrating…
I’m not so sure though, reckon you Aussies will always want a RWD platform. However the Insignia platform is a global platform destined for Australia it will accommodate FWD and 4WD is about the same size as the Commie which would mean there’s competition within the brand, so that may likely means that pursueing a Australian sole use RWD base is not viable??
Anti spam word Daewoo.
Won’t be long now til you open the bonnett of a Commodore and all the writing will be in Korean.
The VE is allready outdated, imagine how much farther it will sink when Holden keep re-hashing it over the next couple of years with no replacement.
But then again, Commodore has only ever been a re-hash of other markets cars.
There will always be touring cars here it just might be front drive holdens v front drive fords
For some reason I knew the holden would fail in American.
Millatime – The VE is not a re-hash of anything, its built off a never used before platform, thats what the article is about dufus!
The archetecture of the VE is world class, no one actually doubts this, its simply the execution is behind it’s FG rival, however people fail to understand that this is simply because the FG was released 2 years after the VE, so ofcrouse its gonna be bloody better now isn’t it… duh
Interesting some of the responses to this potentially devastating post.
First off, GM has spent the $1 billion. They VERY much intent to squeeze the 4-5-6 models (VF, VI, VC or watever) out of it. RWD Commodore is far from dead. The fact is, the VE architecture is flexible and can cope with not only AWD but different drivetrain solutions including diesel and 4 cyl forced induction jobs.
Really, as soon as GM allows GMH to import the sweet DI V6 with a proper 6 speed auto, the drivetrain of higher spec V6 Commodores will be at LEAST on par with FG equivalent models and economy should drop to well below rivals, with a boost of over 30kw for no displacement or weight increase. Diesel however, seems like the most efficient alternative for decent economy combined with the sufficient torque to power a vehicle as heavy as the current VE (no doubt weight will only decrease as models go up in the current climate)
In short, Commodore is far from dead, and VE architecture is FAR from old.
Haha, either a Holden or a Ford. I mean you guys surely recognise who you are, its not that hard your driving a glorified Taxi, oops sorry a Commodore or a Falcon
Richo
My point is VE (Zeta) will become a re-hash as Holden desperately try to keep it’s all ready outdated RWD platform alive.
At least we agree the FG Falcon is a “bloody better” car!
I know it a little off the topic but who in their right mind would buy a Holden ? Their re-hashed Daewoos are the worst cars in their respective classes and the Commodore, the billion dollar already out dated baby, is the worst in its class,it amazes me how people buy the worst cars in this country……..
Jon,
Never seen an Aurion or Camry as a Taxi? I have.
In Germany, they use 3 & 5 Series Beemers & E Class Mercs as Taxis.
Wheelnut, it is the Hyundai Car Company that makes The Bogan. It’s called the Excel, which is Korean for “Irony”.
Millatime, back to your AA Meeting, Son.
When you open most Honda bonnets, the writing is in Thai, A Golf has a South African accent, a Merc ML450 sounds like a Seppo. What’s your point? Surely a German or Japanese Robot works the same in a factory in Korea or Thailand, as it does in Japan?
Fact is the Carmy gets around the same economy as does the Aurion, around 10l/100 km average. Barely better than a Commodore or falcon.
Why buy a Camry, when you can get more performance & the same economy in an Aurion?
Cause Toyota are basically charging $5000 extra for that V6, that’s why.
The equation is simple; either the Carmy is horrible on fuel, or the Aurion is overpriced for what is essentially the same car with a bigger donk.
Toyota have had Turbo Diesels in Hiluxs, HiAces, & Landcruisers for decades, so where’s the Diesel Camrys/Aurions, & Corollas?
GM &Ford aren’t dead yet, & the Commodore will be here for a while yet.
It would seem Holden have taken a leaf out of Toyota’s sales manual, that is heavily discount to “buy” market share. Look at Commodore towards end of ‘08 with all the extra’s thrown in the 60th Anniversary model at a giveaway price. It seems like a good buy and great value, but then remember it is all ready an out dated car, and also easily the worst car in it’s class. Long after you’ve forgotten price, it is the quality of the product (or in this case lack of) that remains.
And let’s not forget those poor souls that purchased a VE early in ‘08 mid year, with Holden discounting so heavily, what do you tink that does to the re-sale value of their car??
Holden say they’ve cut production of the W427 because they listen to their 200 customers who’ve allready bought and want to retain exclusivity. Really? What about the 1000’s of owners who have had their cars value destroyed with such desperate discounting, yes they all rang Holden customer service and asked the executives to destroy as quickly as possible the resale value of their cars, didn’t they?
Millatime – hey the FG falcon is a rehash of the 1998 AU falcon mate, do some bloody research eh?
Zorro,
I have a Nov 06 Build VE SS, & the quality of build is great.
Panel gaps are consistent, no squeaks or rattles, no problems with high tyre wear or reliability at all, barring the battery glitch early VEs had.
The Dealer just flashed the ECU; problem solved.
You are correct about the price though; I paid extra for Leather & side airbags back then, & they are standard now.
It’s the same for most cars now, & particularly imported cars.
They eirher keep the price the same & add extras, or de-content the car to reduce the price.
Holden are no different.
GMs’ policy of having different models around the world worked in the 20th Century, when they grew big by accquiring car companies.
The Japanese way works better now, when you design 1 model for all markets.
GM still don’t get that. (Insignia, Commodore, Buick La Crosse)
Ford are slowly waking up. (Fiesta, Focus, Mondeo)
The downside is that you often end up with a bland, cookie cutter car for all markets, like the Camry.
No one really believes that camry is best in class? Over a Euro Accord, Mazda 6, or even an Octavia?
Commodore is the top seller in it’s class & overall market, & you say it’s not the best in class. That would be the FG. Certainly not the Aurion.
Camry, Corolla, & Yaris are the top sellers in their respective classes, & there’s no way in Hell they are the best models in those classes.
Think Mazda 6, Mazda3 or Golf, & Mazda 2 or new Fiesta.
It’s swings & balances. Toyota are having a great run at the moment. Might have a couple of Aussie employees having something to do with that too.
Just rememver the crap they foisted on the Australian market for decades before they started to build volume.
Just like the Koreans used to do, but now Hyundai at least is earning some respect with i30, & even the old Getz.
Holden develeoped their own platform & variants in direct competition with the financial muscle of the Japanese manufacturers, & have produced a quality car that’s exported to South Africa, NZ, USA, UK, & the Middle East.
Around the world, the journos give them great road tests & reviews.
Instead of knocking them, we should be proud, even if you don’t want to drive or actually do drive a Commodore.
If Toyota did the the same thing in Australia, you’d be singing it from the rooftops.
If Holden does it, the knockers come out of the woodwork.
Yes, yes, I know Toyota exported 100000 Camrys in 08.
They just weren’t designed here, which is a significant thing. They could have exported those same camrys from Japan, & Australia would miss out.
Here’s hoping that Holden & Ford continue to design & build cars in Oz.
Hopefully, Toyota will continue to build cars here.
As long as they get handouts from the Gov’t to fully import the parts for the Camry Hybrid…….. :-)
Interesting news indeed. Will wait and see the fall out for both Ford and Holden here.
Jon, I think most true blue Aussies would rather drive a Taxi than those overseas Jelly moulds!
Captain Mainwaring Says:
January 16th, 2009 at 8:41 pm
“Time for a reality check, OZ-car nuts.”
+1
LOL @ antispam word “Toyota”
Richo
You sound like a complete Holden apologist, you probably believe Holden is an Australian company too.
In your own words mate it’s still “bloody better” than Holdens billion dollar un-loved orphan.
And in your own words mate it was released 2 years after VE, you might want to wait till the afternoon bro before you get on the bongs..
Jason P, totally agree.
Just off topic, watching Classic Australian Touring Car Races Volume 5.
Turbo Bluebirds, VH Commodores, XE Falcons, & RX7s at Oran Park.
Great racing, & more entertaining than the V8 Supercars of today.
Damm im gonna miss out on the VD commodore. If holden stays around long enough we might get a VD commodore. NO GM = NO HOLDEN PMSL
BK,
I’m sure you’re capable of getting VD all by yourself, or at least from that someone special in your life; a Toyota salesperson. :-)
Next Commodore will be VF.
Jason P
You show a good understanding of the auto industry and all the global implications of such. You make the point of several Toyota models leading their class in sales but definately not being best in class. This also applies to the Commodore.
For the record I do not own a VE but have driven several.
But let us remove our rose colored glasses just for a moment. It’s not Holden bashing it’s simply calling a spade a spade.
The VE has awful engines and terrible transmissions, dull lifeless steering and a ridiculously thick vision impairing A pillar. Feel free to add a dated and plain Jane interior to that list.
Yes manufacturing is important to our economy, but commercial reality reigns supreme. The manufacturers in this country do not view the car buying public with warm and fuzzy sentiment – their eyes are fixed firmly and only on our wallets – but they rely heavily on us viewing their products in that way, and more the fools we are for doing so.
Richo……..wow……..you are a tool!! Its you who needs to do research mate. The FG is no where near a re-hash of an AU, it is even not a re-hash of the BA. How do you come to that conclusion? Besides the difference in most mechanicals there is not one body panel, seen or un-seen that is not totally new.
Even the floorpan is not the same as the track and wheelbase is different and the front suspension is not even the same design. So Richo……..if ya cant get ya facts right dont open your stupid mouth…..ok??
The VE is basically designed for the fleet market as only 13,000 of them were bought by private buyers last year. This is how Holden get away with selling an inferior product. In the fleet market it is only the price that matters and not how good a car is. That is why they get away with crappy engines transmissions interior fuel economy and refinement, no-one cares because its not their car they are driving. They sell them with little or no profit……..australias favorite car……..HARDLY !!!!!!
Richo Says:
January 16th, 2009 at 11:27 pm
It astounds me the amount of people who view the possible demise of thousands of Australian jobs as something worth celebrating…
My thoughts exactly Richo – So much for supporting the Aussie Battler
Cupid Stunt Says:
January 16th, 2009 at 11:34 pm
I’m not so sure though, reckon you Aussies will always want a RWD platform. However the Insignia platform is a global platform destined for Australia it will accommodate FWD and 4WD is about the same size as the Commie which would mean there’s competition within the brand, so that may likely means that pursueing a Australian sole use RWD base is not viable??
Cupid – the Zeta Platform on whihch the VE is built is just as flexible as the Epsillon Platform on which the Insignia is built on They are both Global Platforms.
The Zeta Platform is primarily a RWD Platform.. just as the Epsillon platform is primarily a FWD platform.
Both can accept FWD RWD and AWD Drivelined and both can accept a range of engine sizes etc..
Because they are both as flexible as each other is one of the reasons I would have thought that Holden would have built the Insignia here [not to mention cheaper than importing em] rather thatn what is now most likely to be the Cruze – and not an Astra derivative; which can also be built in the USA and China thereby cheaper to import.
Torque – I think what Richo means about the FG being a “re-hash” of the AU is that its built on the same platform
just as the VL is a rehash of the VB Commoodre it shares the same platform or the VX is a rehash of the older VN
However; overtime Holden and Ford have both made various changes to the engine suspension steering brakes and of course the body all of which improves the way the car looks performs and handles they have also improved build quality relaibility ansd safety.
Zorro,
I don’t disagree about certain aspects of your opinion on VE.
I once lost an entire Brisbane Suburb behind the drivers’ side A Pillar.
And yes the dash & some aspects of the interior are dating fast.
The steering however, is great, & many road testers both here & overseas agree.
I think that most manufacturers of most products act the same way. It’s a fact of life.
Banks aren’t here to develop Countries & Improve our living standards & way of life. They’re here to lend money & charge interest for it.
Car makers aren’t here to Mobilise a Nation, they’re here to sell you as many cars as they can, for as much as they can.
It’s amazing how mainstream cars overseas translate to Premium cars in Australia, both in price & percieved quality.
Mercedes had terrible quality on E Class a few models back, but they still sold here as top of the tree executive class cars.
They’re used as taxis in Europe!
Does the ML450 owner really understand that his Merc 4WD is really built in the US? Probably not.
My point being that Toyota aren’t really the warm green Company they’re made out to be.
No diesels in their mainstream passenger cars, Prius hugely more expensive than in overseas markets, builder of huge SUVs & Utes in the US, & copping $35m to build a model that they could have easily made available to the Australian market.
How ’bout some integrity?
How ’bout saying “we’re killing them around the world, keep your $35million, cause we’re only going to import the parts & install them on our local line.
No Ausse jobs created, & it’s a model we should have had in our line up all along.” I’d certainly consider a Hybrid Camry over a Prius.
Now Toyota have just mothballed the planned new Prius factory in the US, & US Prius sales halved when the price of fuel dropped.
ALL Car companies are the same; some just get a bit of a free ride in the press & general public.
If people can laud a Camry or Corolla for being the best seller, but not best in class, then they should do the same for Commodore, & at least acknowledge that the FG is a great car too.
Torque: 13;000 would probably be the number of VE Commodores they sold in Tasmania – your forgetting the rest of Australia.. not to mention NZ the USA the UK South Africa and the Middle East..[along with the WM Statesman]
Not to mention the fact the VE is not only avaialble as a sedan but also a Ute and most recently a Wagon.
As for the VE being a flop in the USA: its not a flop its just that like all other car companies they are having trouble selling them due to the tough economic times the whole world is experiencing.
Look at all the Blogs on similar car websites in the USA and there are numerous car enthusiasts who love the look of the VE… its performance and handling etc.
I don’t think GM have “CANCELLED” Holdens Global RWD project theyve merely done waht a number of other car companies have done ansd that is Put it “ON ICE” for now and when things improve they will comeback to it.
Its just that as always the Media like to sensationalise things and by doing so only get half the story or focus on one particular part of the story etc.. [
I mean Cancelled sounds alot better than On Ice doesn’t it
Jason P – The VEs A Pollar is just as thick as taht in the Camry/Aurion.. I think the thing that makes the difference is the angle that its at which interferes with your view.
Eitherway just like everything else its something you get used to
i dont understand what the problem is FWD and RWD doesnt have much difference unless someone pushes the limits or engages in cars related sport activity it eventually does the same job
My point being that Toyota aren’t really the warm green Company they’re made out to be.
but you’ve got to admit toyota has been churning out fuel efficient and reliable vehicles no matter what they look like their build has always been way better than a holden or a ford
I agree with you Jason, people need to realise company’s are there to make profits, none of them try to be your ‘best friend’ building a car just for you. Each company have their own strategies and some work, some don’t. So all those Toyota-phobes and philes, need to take note because cars built for one company doesnt suit you, it suits others and vice versa.
Not Always….
if you line up all the models toyota has built next to fords or holdens or even GM\’s the green scale tips in toyota\’s favour with the exception of landcruisers
Landcruisers, the Sequoia Ute (in the US), the 4 cyl Camry that uses the same amount of fuel as the 6 cyl Aurion, & less than 1litre/100km less than a Commodore or falcon
Commodores & Falcons are reliable.
Did 350000km in my V8 VP Calais………..
Wheelnut, I’ve now done 60000 in the VE, & yes, you do get used to the A Pillar. Be nice if it was more like the HQ though…..
JasonP
Agree wholeheartedly with your sentiments on Toyota. The Prius is merely an exercise in public relations and perception, there are more economical “conventional” cars on the market for one thing…
Seems there is no future for RWD sedans globally. I guess it was always going to happen at some point, the environment couldn’t sustain big RWD cars forever.
jasonp,
agree with you on the b pillars.its look left,right,left,right,left at a t intersection.one day i cut a corner into a t intersection and very nearly had a head on with an oncoming car.just like yesterdays iced vovo drivers,one day people will understand ve drivers can’t see sideways…
zorro,
native australian dog.5 letters.starting with d.fair dinkum,so the 6.0v8 chevy is a dog,the ve’s got dull and lifeless steering,the 5 and 6 speed auto trany’s are useless,and every other brand of car has better resale…maybe it is you my friend who should lay off the b–gs
Torque – the FG is built of the same platform as the AU, my comments where in response to another poster who was saying that commodores have always been built of older platforms, and i was simply pointing out that the same applies to the falcon, which also is usually built off older platforms.
The FG’s archetecture does indeed date back to the AU, thats a fact mate, same as how the territory was built off the same platform as the falcon.
The front suspension of the FG you refer to comes from the territory, and is development of the suspension that was on the BA falcon of which the territory was based, which in turn was a development of the front suspension of the AU, see the link? Also the FG’s rear suspension is off the BA falcon, which was developed new for the BA falcon because the AU was designed for a live axle which obviously was no longer acceptable and the alternative in AU days was a very expensive to manufacture double wishbone setup, althogh that particular setup was outstanding but ultimately proved too expensive and was the reason why base AU’s had live axles (cost cutting basically).
Yes there are differences in the floorpans, but just because the floorpan is different doesn’t mean the basic platform is different. Also changing the track, and even the wheelbase, is not all that difficult to do, and you certainly don’t need to have an all new platform to do it.
So in summary, although the FG falcon is massively different to the BA and AU before it, the basic archetecture does indeed date back to the AU, look it up! The VE’s archetecture on the other hand is brand new and never before used in a production car before VE, unlike the VZ which dated back to the 1988 VN commodore even though the floorpan, wheelbase, track, bodypanels and drivetrains where different.
So before you run around calling other people tools, first make sure you actually understand what the other person was saying and in what context he was saying it, and then make damn sure your right before attacking them.
Zorro, i’m not sure what your point is, yes i said the FG falcon is better, i have never ever denied this fact, check back over previous posts. I also said that so it should be better because it has two extra years of development under its belt, all you did was repeat what i said, so exactly what is your point?
Also you say the VE is an unloved orphin, but umm… don’t holden sell more commodores then ford to falcons??? gee…
also, why can’t people understand the very simple concept that although one car may be ultimately better then another car, that doesn’t automatically mean the other car is a complete heap of shit!
Can’t it be that both the VE commodore and FG falcon are BOTH very very good cars, but ultimately the FG is a better all round package. That doesn’t mean the VE is a complete heap of shit! Just means it slightly shades the FG.
Same as how a Porsche 911 turbo isn’t as fast as a porsche 911 GT2, but its hardly a heap of shit now is it?
but thats right.. i’m the one around here that’s supposed to be one eyed….
Wheelnut Says:
January 16th, 2009 at 8:23 pm
“This does nothing but confirms my opinion that Rick Wagoner is a typically insular ignorant narrow-minded short-sighted dumb a–e American.”
Mate, he has to make hard decisions – just because you don’t like them doesn’t mean he’s “a typically insular ignorant narrow-minded short-sighted dumb a–e American”.
All this backlash against the Americans when it is they and their companies that have kept GMH and FA afloat all these years…
Bavarian Missile ( . ) ( . ) Says:
January 16th, 2009 at 10:36 pm
“How long do you fools think this down turn in the economy will last ? Not enough to turn Australian manufacturers into FWD fools……..If its good enough for the Germans still why do you think Australia will follow ?”
It’ll last long enough for there to be heavy duty changes in Australia’s three automotive manufacturers… changes I’m sure many of the blind faithful in Australia’s lower socio-economic areas won’t want to believe.
“Anyone that thinks that a Camry/Aurion is a smaller car than a Falcon or Commodore and its has better fuel economy than either deserves to drive the most BORING car in the world,but hey I wont sink to that level! ”
Who said anything about Camry/Aurion? You’ve obviously got a chip on your shoulder about the big T just like Wheelnut…
JasonP Says:
January 17th, 2009 at 1:12 pm
“Did 350000km in my V8 VP Calais………..”
I feel for you mate, having to own and drive a VP commie for all that time.
The Realist – and you obviously have a chip on your shoulder about the big lion no?
Realist – My point is given that Research and Development of the VE started at least 6 years before it was released.. and the Zeta platform on which the Commodore is built was “locked in” within 2 years.
Then GM could/should have started to use the Zeta Platform for a number of subsequent new models from Chev Cadillac Buiok etc from then on.
GM approved the Zeta platform because of its flexibility and its global potential but as soon as it was created GM didn’t do anything with it.
Holden also designed the smaller Alpha platform which the TT-36 Torana Concept is built on which is just as flexible and just as global as the Zeta Platform thereby giving GM yet another optional platform to build medium sized cars on
Realist – Ford and Holden had plans for a number of changes to improve their operations as well as their line up years ago.
Plans such as building a small-medium sized car as well as offering turbo; diesel engines. even AWD models. But they were constantly knocked back by Detroit.
It’s only just recently [after the s--t has hit the fan]
that Detrioit have started to realise the potential that Ford and Holden have to offer.
They finally approved the small car projects – but unfortunately [due to Detroits financial mess] the cars won’t be all-new models like Ford or Holden had planned they will merely be replicas of existing models.
If you were sceptical/cynical you would say the reason for Detroit knocking back Ford and Holdens plans for change is because they felt threatened by the possibility that the Aussie made cars would take sales away from their US made cars.. why won’t they allow Ford to export the Falcon?
This is by no means intended to be a shot at Americans its just that if you’ve got the resources which can help improve your products why wouldn’t you use them?
wheelnut
have to agree with you regards american patriotism.but its time that america took the blinkers off.if the fg and ve are better cars than an american equivalent,and thats face it they own them anyway,than why not sell them.as i see it,the american auto worker is the next dinosaur.the chevy badge is sold to australian’s (via motors etc)without any trouble(even the badges).besides,a fg or ve should be about as big a car that the freshly fuel stung americans should look at anyway.and while there at it,to better sort out the balance of trade,they could bring in some rhd corvette’s(then i woke up)…
What a shame VE is getting canceled. As people have said, I believe it is just a product of the tough economic times – and has nothing to do with the platforms characteristics.
The Zeta Platform, along with Ford AU’s E8 are the best low cost full size RWD platforms in the world, add to that Hyundai’s Genesis Platform.
I wouldn’t be surprised if when the economic fortunes turn around that GM will once again look to Holden to develop a RWD platform with some advanced power-trains.
The auto industry is like this – full of ups and downs.
Captain Mainwaring Says:
January 16th, 2009 at 8:41 pm
Good post.
You people hav’nt seen this coming? This is actually a surprise to some of you, thats what I find hard to believe.
“I wouldn’t be surprised if when the economic fortunes turn around that GM will once again look to Holden to develop a RWD platform with some advanced power-trains.”
Not this century.
Everready GM and Holden AREN”T CANCELLING The VE COmmodore.. They are merely putting any plans to develop further future RWD platforms On Ice…
Holden will continue to build the VE Commodore and subsequent model Commodores – the next one being the VF which will use the Zeta Platform just as the VB-VK series used the same platform.
The media like to sensationalise things.. which is why the Heading is GM CANCELS HOLDENS RWD PLATFORM.. it creates more interesnt and speculation than RWD PROGRAM PUT ON HOLD would which is what is actually happening.
GM and Ford are in the process of restructuring operations and streamlining their line up so until they are more certain of their future – that is after they have axed Pontiac Buick Saab and Hummer… virtually everythings on hold
Jekyl & Hyde
I don’t mean to upset you, but hey, don’t take my word for it, just read any review of the VE vs FG vs Aurion, and I do mean any, at random, from any magazine, or newspaper, period. Just pick one, any, you choose…
And mate I’m not dingo, check my post to JasonP, I actually bagged Toyota..
Wheelnut……..the 13000 is the total number australia wide that were sold to private buyers, not just in Tasmania …….the rest was to fleets.
13,000 private out of 51,000 total…….
Richo…….as i said before…you are a tool.
Realist,
The VP Calais served me well for 350000, & helped setup my business.
It was good & reliable, & reasonably economical.
I can now afford to drive a new VE SS, & a new Mazda 2.
Point is, I liked driving it, & it just ran & ran.
Pulled as hard as a 14 y.o. too.
Certainly a better proposition than any Toyota of the day. (91-92)
Torque – how mature of you… couldn\’t think of a counter argument eh?
Torque if 13;000 out of the 51;000 VE Commodores that were sold.. that means that 38;000 were sold to company fleets.. doesnt it?
Now say [for example] the average price of a VE including fleet discount] is $25k [$25000 x 38000 = 950,000,000]
Given that companies are in the business of making money they’re not likely to waste so much money on a car that is inefficient or unreliable and spends alot of time in the workshop are they?
Therefore; that in itself negates your arguement that the VE is a poorly built inferior car. doesn’t it?
Mind you when they do need to be repaired VEs are cheaper than most other [imported] cars that they can choose from.
Post a report on a ‘neutral’ car company like Volkswagen or Honda and you get about 20 comments in a week.
Post a plagiarised report from the GoAuto website about a controversial and touchy subject and you get 80 comments in a day.
If this isn’t a blatant exercise to score website hits I don’t know what is…
Hans
You are right the mis information going aroung on this subject is unreal, this story has been kicking around for days and unfortunately Aus Car Advice have ran a headline that is indeed misleading.
The fact is Bob Lutz has said there will be a next generation Camaro and that if you read Brisbanes Courier Mail the Commodore has been touted as running at least to 2020 albeit with the ability to run a variety of powertrains. Those of you that get off that a great Australian icon and indeed an employer of many thousands of Australians need to take a reality pill and if you dont like supporting Aus jobs be it with Holden, Ford or whatever maybe you should leave our faid country and take you negative attitudes with you.. THE FACTS ARE THIS HOLDEN EXPORTED 60,000 CARS LAST YEAR ON TOP OF DOMESTIC PRODUCTION A VERY PROUD ACHEVIEMENT IN MY EYES.
R.I.P Holden, hahaha
torque,
where do you get your info regarding fleet sales vrs retail sales.i’m sure its not just me who wants to know…
sorry zorro,
but explain that bit about how a camry outsteers a ve.its easy to bag a ve,but please compare it to something.would you compare fords best kept secret(fg) with pontiacs best (g8)??only the motoring public is missing out…
Its not good for Australia period. For Ford, Toyota, Holden… period.
If Ford and Holden pulls, it affects Toyota’s local business….
Unless Honda, Nissan etc decide to build plants here… which is obviously unlikely.. even more so with current conditions.
Anyone else seen this story????
“Toyota will halve domestic production for three months and reduce operations at domestic factories amid plummeting demand.”
or does this site only report on the poor fortunes of GM and the other US based manufacturers???
that particular article tells of 3000 people losing their jobs, with all 12 of their facilities shutting down for 11 days on top of that.
When they threatened to close the I6 plant forever, it only involved around 1 tenth of that, and it was ridden in the headlines for every mile on offer, even though at the same time the announcement for the Focus was made which would create jobs in a number which would pretty much cancel out any losses from the I6 plant closure, which isnt going to happen anyway.
instead we get such headlines as “Toyotas not affected” and “Toyota defies Auto slump trend”
No Andrew – that can’t possibly be true…. I [like many others on this site] was lead to believe that the Almighty Toyota; with their Kaizen philosophy and supposedly superior products is totally immune to any problems experienced by Ordinary car companies such as a global economic downturn.
I am also starting to get the same impression as Andrew..
when Holden/Ford announces that its closing down for routine maintenance or that its scaling back production etc.. the media acts as if they are closing down for good and the workers have lost their jobs etc
But when Toyota announces its closing down for routine maintenance… its just for routine maintenance
But as the Marketing manager from Ford said [on the Ford Credit topic]; The media focuses more on Ford and Holden because they have more of a traditonal following in Australia and are thought of as being more Australian than Toyota..
Therefore whenever somehting happens at Ford or Holden the media like to sensationalise it a bit more by either blowing it out of all proportion or take it out of context inorder to create more interest and controversy.. The fact this topic got over 80 with in 24hrs proves that
Quote Jon “R.I.P Holden, hahaha
Um do some of you guys read any other site than this,you read a bad story about Holden and Ford and put the steel caps on .
How on earth do you come to Holden RIP for f..ks sake ?
This story has nothing to do with Holden closing down just that GM like Ford in this US due to economic restraints wont be {at this stage } going ahead with plans for a new RWD car………the rest you all read what ever you want too. No mention from you about Holden employing a 1000 new people next year for the development of their first small car since the 80s……..
Looks like more lamb for us on Australia day with the non Australian supporters eating Sushi ………..How un-Australian !
yeah i saw the toyota story, along with toyota’s massive cuts to projected profits and the fact their north american arm will loose (alot) of money this year, but for some reason you still get people on this site who think the economic downturn is only affecting ford and GM. The word is ignorance
No mention from you about Holden employing a 1000 new people next year for the development of their first small car since the 80s……..
Bavarian Missile ( . ) ( . ) Says:
January 18th, 2009 at 11:44 am
Thats right, to build a fuel efficient 4 cylinder car, and we taxpayers get to drop a 150 million into the kitty. Maybe some will have diesel, maybe some will have lpg, ho knows.
RWD suspended, that is fair comment, but you actually think they are going to revisit it? GM is a mass producer, if it wants to survive it has to have minimum platforms. you people choose to ignore things like CAFE, fuel efficiency, mass of the vehicle, they are building for the states, not OZ. GM has to become like Toyota, make a lot of cars, sell a lot of cars, give the people what they want, cull the rubbish(saab, pontiac et al. RWD does not work for mass producers as a rule, forget your niche producers, the germans have it covered, move on. KISS principle people. Look at ford, good product, fwd mostly, does not compete against itself,better that toyota I reckon, they are going to be a power again.
Lets be honest here, Holden is really struggling in OZ, the VE is a good car but is losing market share, in fact, I think nearly all holden vehicles dropped sales and market share in 2008, yet it was only the second year that sales went past a million. Holden have real problems, and basically it is its range, its pretty ordinary, and every year it keeps it that way its losing future customers.
By the way, its the weekend, Im sure there will be an article about toyota woes by Monday.
Wheelnut Says:
January 18th, 2009 at 11:27 am
No Andrew – that can’t possibly be true…. I [like many others on this site] was lead to believe that the Almighty Toyota; with their Kaizen philosophy and supposedly superior products is totally immune to any problems experienced by Ordinary car companies such as a global economic downturn.
What a silly comment, Toyota as the number one seller in the world is going to suffer proportionally the most damage. Other big losers will be GM, Ford and VW, they make the most cars, they will lose the most sales, therefore they will drop production levels the most. Its about being able to cutting losses the best way possible, the issue you need to deal with wheelnut is that GM would already be out of business but for a 14 billion dollar handout from the US gvt, btw, they are lining up for another 14 billion as we type. Toyota has the reserves to fund its own operations.
BTW I think GM supended work on rotary engines about 20 years ago, never gone back to it, consider that.
Axe: I was being Sarcastic – of course Toyota are/were going to experience more problems and suffer greater losses given that they are the wolrd’s wealthiest ad reportedly the biggest car company in the world.. not to mention that they have spread themselves very thinkly to offer what is one of if not the widest range of vehicles in an attempt to be everything to everyone..
it was only a matter of time.
it’s just that there are a few Toyo-philes on here who gave the impression that Toyota are so superior they are immune to anything and everything
Axe inorder to survive ALL car companies will have to start looking at ways to share various parts and platforms between a number of cars..Not just GM.
VW have already started – GM Ford and the others including Toyota will have to follow
The Zeta plattform on which the VE is built is a very flexible and could be used for other RWD cars from Cadillac and Chevrolet.. its one of the reasons GM gave Holden the go ahead to build the VE
Holdens Alpha platform is also a global platform as well as the Delta and Insignia platform from Opel.
Axe – GM walking away from rotary engines is not even close to the same thing as the suspension of the Zeta platform.
Apart from this, GM still fully intend to do a full upgrade of the VE commodore in 2012 which will see the current Zeta platform through to near on 2020, the only decision made here is that for the moment they won’t be making any other models off the platform and the platform will only support commodore and comaro for the time being.
Also Axe, if you wanna have a “think about it” comment, how about the fact that BMW, mercedes and lexus all continue to use RWD for their large cars…
JEKYLE AND HYDE …….THERE WAS A STORY ON ONE OF THESE CAR SITES THAT SAYS THE MAZDA 6, i THINK, HAS 87% PRIVATE SALES SO IS THE MOST POPULAR CAR IN OZ FOR PRIVATE SALES, AND THE VE HAS 13000 OUT OF 51000 PRIVATE SALES. I WILL TRY AND FIND THE ARTICLE AGAIN……..
Wheelnut – you would have to be the most ignorant blogger i have seen.
Mazda 3 not 6 sorry!!!
Wheelnut says Toyota will have to start sharing platforms yet what he so ignorantly doesn’t understand is that it is the very reason for thier leaner or more efficent operations and it has been other companies in recent years that have decided to follow suit, not the otherway around.
I’ll give you a single example of many … the humble Camry platform is the basis for derivatives such as the Aurion, Solara (US) and Avalon (US) aswell as the Kluger / Hylander and ofcourse the Lexus ES and RX series.
As i read through some of the comments, it dumb-founds me have grossly incorrect and just downright wrong how many comments from Wheelnut are.
He speaks as if he knows but infact he is undeniably ignorant and utterly arrogant.
Another … states Holden and Ford have more traditional followers yet Toyota outsells Holden and Ford combined then plus some while in the commercial and 4×4 market, there are no more loyal followers to any brand then Toyota.
Justin I know theat Toyota share couple of platforms as evident by the Camry/Aurion… but not to the extent that VW among ishares platforms and parts throughout group of companies – VW Audi Porsche Lamborghini etc…. that is all
As for the comment about Ford and Holden having “traditional followers”…. what I meant was most Australians see Ford and Holden as beng More Australian than Toyota – even though they are both foreign owned.. they have more of a History in Australia than Toyota [particularly Holden as they were established here].
Which is why stories relating to Holden and Ford generally get more of a reaction than those about Toyota..
Justin says “there are no more loyal followers to any brand then Toyota.
hahaha Yeah and I bet yours is white like everyone elses Justin! Toyota are the kings of marketing and plebs follow them and their surveys !
It appears that there aren’t that many people who have bothered read the article in particular the last paragraph which says:
Mr Lutz also commented that the next-generation Holden Commodore would arrive as scheduled for the Australian market in the next few years and would continue to use the Zeta architecture.
Which means the Commodore isn’t dead! its just that for the time being ; whilst GM go through their restructuring porcess etc. The only car to use the Zeta platform will be the VE and the Camaro.. [like Richo said]
Bavarian – Holden are the king of market and all plebs follow them even when they sell dated, reshashed Daewoo’s.
Check out most crap box Commodores, always the same ‘ole bogon sterotype driving them.
And while i am at, atleast Toyota hasn’t become a welfare case and dependant on handouts. Gee … hasn’t GM managament been desperately pledding for help over the past few months. Must be a soul wrenching experiance
LooseWheelNut – Toyota has quite a history stance themself in Australia but the world continues to move forward and history will not sustain the future.
Take a long hard look at the dwindling market percentage Holden and Ford have lost over the years. Gone from a once approx 50% between them down to less then half and now at approx 23%.
Yeah, history is really helping them … NOT !!
And just to inform your ignorant personality, Toyota started sharing parts and platforms throughout it’s organisation long before VW ever did but haa, you wouldn’t have a slighest clue because you are ridiculously narrow minded.
“RWD does not work for mass producers as a rule, forget your niche producers, the germans have it covered,”
Richo, how about you read the entire post before posting your redundant comments.
“Mr Lutz also commented that the next-generation Holden Commodore would arrive as scheduled for the Australian market in the next few years and would continue to use the Zeta architecture.” – This is the same Mr Lutz who canned the G8 wagon and ute after admitting – “Lutz confirms the wagon – based on the stylish Holden Commodore wagon (pictured top) – was part of the original G8 product plan, but that GM couldn’t get the numbers to add up. “I had to lose one of them [to make the program work financially],”
This is the same Mr Nutz who is the head designer of an insolvent company, reliant of welfare to pay next months wages. Yer, I wouldnt believe anything this guy said.
Why then, did Toyota Australia cop $35 000 000 from The Green Car Plan, just to import some parts, & install them on the Camry Production line?
If they’re travelling so well, then accepting that money is surely bad form.
The debate on RWD is mute.
The Germans & Australians have stuck with it, & Lexus have bucked the Toyota Trend & accepted that RWD has a purpose & a place in their line up.
Torque, you are correct, it’s the Mazda 3 that’s the most popular vehicle bought by the public, rather than fleet sales.
Hard to believe (based on these posts) that it isn’t a Camry or Corolla.
As for Commodore Stereotypes, I’m self-employed, Managing Director of my Company, & have been for 12+ years.
I have no kids, & have managed to miss out on every single Gov’t handout possible… :-(
My main car is a VE SS, & I certainly don’t consider myself a Bogan.
Really don’t care what the Toyo-philes opine, you can have them as far as I’m concerned.
If people out there want to drive a white toyota, that’s their choice.
I don’t, I won’t, & I’ll buy another GM vehicle in the future.
The one toyota I owned, was no better in quality than my VE, & as it was a boring, anonymous box, I’ve been there, done that, & won’t darken their doorstep again.
Bavarian Missle (.)(.),
That callsign remains hynotic.
Is it (.)(.), or (.) (.)?
:-)
That’s Hypnotic!
Good for you JasonP, and I can tell you Toyota wont sleep after losing that sale.
At least toyota is building a hybrid with that money, HOLDEN got a 150 million to build a 4 cyl, now thats a joke.
I tell you what, I will stick with my German cars and you keep buying the holden crap. You dont realise this…but…you are a bogan :)
Gentlemen
On another note, we now have in Vic more evidence of “The Plot” ie
1. Rumours circulating today that “fine evaders” (read that as young people who do not have much cash to pay multiple speed and impoundment fines) will now have their DLs cancelled
2. The Asst Police Commmissioner in Vic in the media today talking up an increase in middle aged/mid life crisis hoons (read that as old blokes who have lots of cash to pay fines) having their cars confiscated.
As I asserted in an earlier blog, you have to manage your anticipated and changing cashflows carefully so that your bonus is maximised.
Cheers.
Axe,
Thanks mate!
Can I have a drag against your Yaris?
:-)
Sorry Axe,
You said German didn’t you?
Can I have a drag against your 1990 318i then?
:-)
I’m actually Pro-German cars & their car industry.
Seriously considering either an R32 or an S3 next time.
friend of mine has an 08 330Ci twin turbo, & loves it.
I’m not even anti japanese; I also have an 08 Mazda 2.
I’m not particularly against toyota, it’s just that not one single model does it for me.
I’m sure toyota won’t miss that one sale to me, so everyone’s happy!
However, I have bought brand new cars in Sept 03, Feb 05, Jan 07, & Oct 08, so I guess they won’t miss the 4 sales to me.
Just to check, are there any other car companies out there who’d like to sell someone a new car every 18 months or so?
JUST SO EVERYBODY KNOWS,
BAVARIAN MISSILE is a GIRL,the two “dots” represent “high beam”(not exactly in the car sense).plus she has a “cute” bum(her words).and she dabbles in forged crankshafts…champion!!!.as that ok b.m.?
Justin – Holden and Ford History goes much deeper than Toyota… Ford and Holden helped Australia in the war effort and the depression.
They also helped our farmers and other industries – although Toyota has made inroads in that area over the last decade or so.
Its true there were more Toyotas than Fords and Holdens used in the Snowy River Mountain scheme but there were even more VWs used than Toyotas.
As for History -history is how we learn from the mistakes we made and how to avoid repeating them in the future… as they say inorder to know where you are going you need to know where you have been.
As I have said before if Toyota are so f-n good as their marketing department would like us to believe how come it took them so long to become number one?
The Axe Bob Lutz isn’t GMs Chief Designer; Australian and former Holden Designer Mike Simcoe is.
BTW I’d rather be in a 4 star Daewoo than a 2 star Daihatsu [which is owned by Toyota]
Quote [Justin]: Toyota started sharing parts and platforms throughout it’s organisation long before VW ever did but haa, you wouldn’t have a slighest clue because you are ridiculously narrow minded.
Yeah Right have a look at the VW Beetle and the Porsche.. over the years the quality etc between them has changed but the first few models shared a number of similarities etc [both companies were formed in the 1930s and both cars were created/designed by Dr Ferdinand Porsche]
The original VW Beetle and the Porsche shared a number of components
Quote [Axe]: This is the same Mr Lutz who canned the G8 wagon and ute after admitting – “Lutz confirms the wagon – based on the stylish Holden Commodore wagon (pictured top) – was part of the original G8 product plan, but that GM couldn’t get the numbers to add up.
You could say the same about Toyota and their on again off again plans in relation to the next generation Supra which at this stage has been put On Ice [again]
Yet their cross town rival; Nissan has gone ahead and released the R35 GT-R which has received rave reviews across the world and could potentially attract some would be Supra buyers..i
mmmmmmmm , a little old for a girl Jekyl but thanks for the compliment . Im a high performance nut you have a good mammary {he he he} ,which is why I guess Toyotas are so, yawn……….boring to me ! Did see Toyotas first attempt at a performance car in this country during the week,TuRD Camry . First thing I noticed was the fake exhaust second thing I noticed ,I wasnt in my car !grrrrrrr Probably be another 12 months till I see one by the numbers they sold!
Jason like you I enjoy most models ,Jap cars including but Toyotas even with their reliability surveys are way down the list of ever wanting to own one cause I have in the past and didnt find them any better or worse than the Commodores or GT Falcons Ive owned. Love the new Lancer,Mazda 6s and who can go past the GT-R………Germans are my passion but I will always be Australian enough to say the local product Holden and Ford create will always be worth buying, saving and sticking up for !
After all , Sumo wrestling,Sushi,Humpback Whales and Toyotas just doest have the same ring as, Footballs,meatpies,Kangaroos and Holden cars ;)
And We Love Football, Meat Pies, Kanagroos & Holden Cars…
I love Beemers too, but Chris Bangle has a lot to answer for………
To all the Toyotaphiles out there who think they never ever make a mistake and they are perfect in every way, i have three letters for you:
T – R – D
aww stuff it one more for good measure:
Avalon
[Your comment is awaiting moderation…I THINK NOT!]
Who cares what GM does in USA
These are the facts -
Commodore, #1 seller in Oz for 13 years straight.
Well exported and accepted around the globe.
The market has spoken!
Crickey, when they build the cab-chassis Ute again WIRH-A-BENCH-SEAT and DEDICATED-INJECTED-LPG i will put my hand up for one [Bye to Falcon!]
Cheers
F-0
Gee Jason, just relax mate, last time I looked it cost about $570.00 to register a company and nominate yourself as managing director.
318? Nahh, not even close, feel better tho :)
Global product development vice-chairman Bob Lutz, OK whatever. Buy whatever you like guys, I relly couldnt give a $@#$ :)
Haha, my comments were a deliberate shit stir and gee it worked, get a life losers. like if i give a toss whether Holden or Ford goes front wheel drive, like seriously most of the people driving them wouldn`t even know.
Axe,
Can’t wait for your next deeply insightful critique.
OK, I’m a Bogan, cause I drive a Commodore.
Oh well…..
:-)
As long as you keep the streets well swept, we’ll all be happy.
:-)
Have always bought whatever I liked, & thanks for your permission to continue to do so.
Enjoy whatever Beemer you drive, & I’ll enjoy my SS.
Its ok mate, will help you out of the gutter anytime :)
I said I drive german not BMW, try reading toots :)
Frugal one,
i agree,
when holden makes a few changes to their ute, it will be the one not to go past.
you left out a few upgrades needed too by the way.
how about you add better engines firstly before putting it on LPG,
and how about better tranny too,
oh and how about a better interior???? that wouldnt go astray,
oh and then rid the terrible blindspots put into the commy ute in the interest of keeping style higher on the list than practicallity???
the commy ute isnt built with one ounce of practicallity in it.
i cant see them changing that formula overnight.
but in saying that I’d rather be getting round in a commy ute over a crapper Japper, thats when interior standards and comfort go right out the window
had a ve sv6 for 7 months what a peice of crap noisy rough engine a 5 speed auto that realy had no idea what was required,cheap and nasty interior most uncomfortable seats rock hard leather.good panel fit ruined by a heap of paint blemishes.not a nice car at all.i was one of those people that truely beleived that holden was the be all and end all of motor cars i could never see fault in any gm product,so i must say thank you to gm for making me see the error of my ways by making something so awfull that i could no longer live with this delusion.i agree with a previous comment most wouldnt know if they drove a fwd.oh and andrew m most upmarket jap stuff run rings around the commodore in the interior stakes except aus made toyotas.
Bencong – couple of points, first of all you would think you would have picked up on these things before you bought it, second you say you could never previously see fault in GM products, presumably meaning you have bought them before, yet the best commodore they have made so far (whether you like commodores or not its pretty clear that the VE is the best one they have made) is the one where you suddenly realised they are crap… things not adding up!
1st there was Dingo who wouldn’t allow a bad word about Toyota to go un-challenged.
Now we have Richo that says people are full of sh-t if they dare express a view of Holden that he doesn’t approve of.
CA, can’t you ban these guy’s so we can get on with intelligent discussion??
Zorro – care to read my other posts, particularly those where i say the FG is a much better car then the VE commodore.. seriously all i was saying is that bencong sounded like he was making stuff up, because all the things he mentioned are things you would pick up on a test drive, so why did he buy it? It’s not like he bought it and then had alot of reliability problems which can obviously happen to people and you wouldn’t know about it on a test drive, but when you buy a car and then complain about the way it looks, quality of the interior, engine noise etc, these are all things you would notice before you bought it
Richio is right… I mean Becong should have been aware of the SV6s short comings etc particularly given that so many journos have made note of the rough idle the lack of sound deadening material not to mention the out-dated automnatic.
BTW: Becong; Andrew M was saying that both the Falcon and Commodore utes are better than the Japs not the sedans/
Mind you the Japanese don’t actually make Utes they make Pick-ups [Hilux Triton Navara]
bencong,
bet you bought a silver one,didn’t you.seen more than one going in for a full respray.will go with you on the leather too.you should be venting to a holden service centre manager though,no one here really cares…
i think everyone is going way over the top they are still going to makerear wheel drive cars just on same platform.Still got a couple of more models in it. VF and so forth
Wheelnut Says:
January 17th, 2009 at 5:08 pm
“This is by no means intended to be a shot at Americans its just that if you’ve got the resources which can help improve your products why wouldn’t you use them?”
Broadly I would agree, however there is so much more at stake for GM than worrying about the fate of one of their smaller operations (in Oz). I don’t know the detailed implications of the current crisis or situation within GM, as I am very sure the rest of the arm chair experts here don’t, but some sections of their company are going to be disappointed.
Bavarian Missile ( . ) ( . ) Says:
January 18th, 2009 at 8:13 pm
“I will always be Australian enough to say the local product Holden and Ford create will always be worth buying, saving and sticking up for !
After all , Sumo wrestling,Sushi,Humpback Whales and Toyotas just doest have the same ring as, Footballs,meatpies,Kangaroos and Holden cars ;)”
That’s it, keep up the patriotism – Holden and Ford count on that to prop up their miniscule non-fleet sales.
BTW – Holden is an American company, in case you didn’t know. So your uninformed association above is ridiculous. Just like 75% of what you type.
JasonP Says:
January 18th, 2009 at 7:12 pm
“Seriously considering either an R32 or an S3 next time.
friend of mine has an 08 330Ci twin turbo, & loves it.”
335i !!!
JasonP Says:
January 18th, 2009 at 8:20 pm
“I love Beemers too, but Chris Bangle has a lot to answer for………”
BIMMER!!!
JasonP Says:
January 18th, 2009 at 10:02 pm
“Enjoy whatever Beemer you drive, & I’ll enjoy my SS”
It’s Bimmer. Now you’re starting to sound like a journalist from Wheels magazine mate.
The Realist – Bavarian Missile was not being patriotic through thinking Holden is an Australian company which i know BM is smart enough to know isn’t the case, she was referring to the fact that Commodores and Falcons are made in Australia giving Australian’s jobs etc. Are you really so stupid as to not understand that? And you have the hide to refer to BM’s comments as “ridiculous”
And Bimmer, Beemer, as if anyone really gives the slightest ounch of shit, but just to make you look a bit stupider then you have done by yourself, according to the Encarta dictionary, the words “beemer” and “beamer” are “informal references to the automobile manufacturer “BMW”. No reference is made to your spelling of “bimmer” you bloody idiot
Thanks Richo for explaining to the “Realist” he obviously needs to get a new name !
The Realist – GM have released a statement outlining their restructuring plans etc… in it it mentions the companies that GM will be Holden onto and Holden is one of them Opel is another..
So given that GM will survive one way or another [the US govt won't let em go bust] in the end Holden will also be there [because our govt won't let em go bust either]
However; my point was that maybe if GM took advantage of the experience and expertise their subsidiaries have to offer and if they used the Global and flexible platforms such as the Zeta paltform earlier they might not be in so much trouble
Axe,
Any & all help appreciated!
Not a BMW? I like Mercs, Opels & Audi/VW as well. Hope you’re happy with your German; I would be.
We’re sweet mate, keep posting! :-)
The Realist, 330Ci or 335i, whatever. It’s the one with the twin turbo six that keeps winning engine of the year awards.
:-)
I reckon it would be a good substitute for an M3.
Most of the performance & handling, for less outlay.
GM says……….”lets ditch the wonderfully aussie built and designed Zeta platform and go back to our old sh*t Sigma platform.”