Car Advice

U.S. bailout plan rejected by Senate

By George Skentzos |

The U.S. auto industry bailout plan has failed to pass through the Senate overnight, worsening the prospect that General Motors and Chrysler LLC may collapse.

U.S. bailout plan rejected by Senate

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid said quite simply that it would be a “very, very bad Christmas for many Americans”, dreading the repercussions of this decision on Wall Street.

Already in Asia, the Nikkei stock market has fallen by more than 5.5 percent, sparking only the first consequence of the failed bill.

The bailout plan received the majority vote; however fell seven votes short of the number needed to consider the measure.

This rejection leaves GM and Chrysler LLC in a difficult position, the time has come to take desperate measures in order to raise the combined $11 billion they say they need this month to stay solvent.

The stumbling block which prevented the plan from passing the Senate was a dispute over when UAW workers would consent to have their wages reduced to match those paid to non-union workers in U.S. import-brand factories – having rejected a 2009 deadline for the parity demand.

General Motors has said it may not have enough money to operate by year-end, a sentiment echoed by Chrysler LLC.

“We will assess all of our options to continue our restructuring and to obtain the means to weather the current economic crisis.” said a spokesperson for GM.

Economists and researchers have warned that a failure of one or more of the car companies will shatter a U.S. economy already in recession.

Together the Detroit 3 CEOs say they need at least $34 billion in federal money to get through the recession that has seen U.S. new vehicle sales drop to 25-year lows.

Ford said it doesn’t need immediate help but may need a $9 billion line of credit should the economy weaken further or one of its domestic rivals collapses.

One last hope remains for the bailout plan however, with Congress able to reintroduce the new legislation early next year when Democrats have a wider majority in the Senate.


 
  • http://caradvise.com.au schah7

    For G.M. to survive they need to look at themselves and scrap or sell “Pontiac”, “G.M.C” which are just Chevrolets
    “Saturn” and “Saab” which is a Opel and “Hummer”
    Focus on Chev, Buick which is dead in America but does sell in China fairly well and Cadillac.
    Get rid of the rest G.M cause they’re “clones” and costing ya money.

  • Aaron

    Its due justice. They have resisted efficiency measures attempted by their Government and consumer groups. They destroyed the electric car industry. Japan, Korean and German cars will now progress thanks to their innovation and genuine appeal to consumer interests.
    Good riddence to the big 3!

  • BJ

    A temporary setback; once Obama takes office the big 3 will be bailed out. Its shame because keeping these failures on taxpayer funded life support will prevent any real renewal of the industry.

    Holden must now be on borrowed time; anyone care for a Tata Commodore?

  • Ron Flat

    No doubt, next week something will happen and GM and their buddy’s Ford and Chrysler will get the money.

    Thankfully, in three months they’ll have p**sed it all away and bankruptcy will mean the end of Commondores, Craptivas, Exploders and those god-awful Sebrings! (no pun required with the last car).

  • Wheelnut

    In the end I think that Chrysler Dodge will disappear. Wwhich is unfortunate as I love Mopar Hemi V8s. Although Chrysler were in trouble when Merc took them over and if Merc-Benzs investment etc couldn’t help them nothing will

    GM will survive [only just] but will be be reduced to just Chevrolet Cadillac. They will drop Buick Pontiac and Saab

    But I also think they will keep Holden and Opel [if not 100% they will retain a major share]. Besides in times of trouble you focus on what you’re good at.. your strengths and Holden and Opel are where GMs future lies mainly due to their RWD and FWD ecpertise – GM US has no real strength

    And Ford will be simply Ford and Mazda

  • Richo

    Typical, those in the know actually realise that falling sales is not the main reason that GM, Ford and Chrysler are stuffed (although it sure isn’t helping) the problem is the massive amounts of money they have to pay to their staff due to the bloody UAW. The US government basically forced the big three to subscribe to the UAW’s totally unreasonable requests, such as paying their workers a % of their wage for the rest of their lifes once they retire and a number of other idiodic demands. As a result manufacturing in the US became so exensive that it was crippling the big three, the falling sales are just the final straw.

    Now we find out that the bailout won’t go through because? The UAW ofcourse!! Those dickheads have a hell of alot to answer to, what they don’t realise is that by stopping this bailout from going through, all they are going to acheive is leaving their members out of work! But to them that would actually be preferable to being seen as backing down from their demands… absolute assholes

  • Richo

    Wheelnut – GM has already said that as part of the bailout plan, they would “focus on their core brands of chevy, cadillac, GMC and Buick” which is basically code for saturn, pontiac, hummer and saab are gone!

    They want to keep the buick brand because of its presence in asia, and although the truck market in the US is shrinking, its still a pretty freekin big market so GMC is still important to them as well.

    They will also keep opel, vauxhall, daewoo and holden due to their strong regional strength, ie opel in europe, vauxhal in the UK, daewoo in asia and holden in australia. Also all four of those manufacturers will be very important to GM in the future due to their engineering and manufacturing infrastructure which will be needed more and more as GM reduce their US manufacturing as much as they possibly can

  • Wheelnut

    The one thing that is hurting both GM and Ford is that they have so many simmilarly sized vehicles with similar features specifications etc in the same market competing against each other.

    What they should do is build one [maybe 2] models of a particular car; one aimed at the entry level the other at the top ot the range [All or Nothing] then study the sales information and workout what features/options arethe most popular with customers who have bought cars in that market and fit the cars out to suit.

    The other thing is that they have a number of “dedicated” factories that are relatively close together [within the same state/region] both operating at less than 50-60% and both builfding exactly the same car.. if not a similar car; one building a sedan the other a wagon

    Whereas most other companies have plants that can build sedans utes wagons SWB LWB RHD LHD cars all in the one place – so why don’t the Americans.

    I mean GM CEO Bob Lutz has said that he believes the new Assembly line at Holden is one of the most “flexible” in the world he has seen because A RHD Ute is built right behind an LHD Sedan

    Plus A number of cars that Ford and GM export from the USA are built in the USA whereas most other companies have plants located more centrally to their key markets to reduce shipping costs – in America Asia-Pacific and Europe

    This is one reason why I expect that eventually GM will start building LHD Commodores [which will then be badged up as Chevs] in Canada if not America.. which will give Holdne the Capacity to build an extra, Small/Medium car.

  • Tom

    Smart move senate, if one goes under, chances are all three will because of supplier demise, and then what, 20% of the american economy is in automotive production, think the recessions bad, this could be an global collapse.

  • Elitist

    This bankruptcy is all a plan for the big 3 to reorganize as new companies MINUS their unions.

    Hope Rudd doesn’t propose we buy dim whited Holden and Ford.

  • Wheelnut

    Richo – your last 2 comments on how the financial problems GM and Ford are having are actiaully as a result of the UAW.. and the fact GM has said it will keep Holden and Opel is what I have been basing my arguements on against the ignorant narrow-minded Toyo-Philes on this site

    Holden means as much to GM as it does to Australia

    I mean GM took Holden over back in 1930s [80 years after Holden was established] initially it was to establish a presence in the Asia Pacific region.. since then they have realised the potential they have on offer in Australia.

    Do you really think GM would have given the $1bn project to build the VE the green light [when they were in worse financial situation than what they are now][ if they didn;t think that Holden couls build a versatile practical world class car that could be sold throughout the world if not build ars which use the same platform features etc..

    Holden have proven themselves which is why they;re now involved in a number of other GM projects - I mean the International Design Chief at GM is an Aussie - Mike Simcoe

  • Cupid Stunt aka No Name

    They’ll survive in someway or another, Pheonix from the Ashes and all that. The unions have a lot to answer for after effectively killing off the Industry. If they do go pop then surley all their liabilities will go overnite. Then they could start a-fresh. It’s in the interest for the Gov to let them fall. GM europe are the only profitable bit at the moment.
    Few more typos for teach (Reckless) to pick up on.

  • Elitist

    It’s not that Holden got any better, it’s GM that got shitter.
    Holden still cannot compete amongst real countries and even Korea which is fairly new is surpassing Holden.

    Everytime I see some looser do a burnout with a Holden down the freeway and make the area look like rubbish i say to myself… “I can’t wait to see Holden die and australia get civilized tastes”.

  • http://www.caradvice.com.au/19766/us-bailout-plan-rejected-by-senate/ Hans

    GM filing for bankruptcy doesn’t mean they’ll cease to exist. They’ll emerge a few years down the track without the retired workers burden and start new again. Filing for protection under chapter 11 might actually do them some good in that sense but would destroy the brand’s consumer confidence.

    If GM does go bankrupt, Holden will more then likely pull out of local manufacturing which means Australian jobs will be shed. This would in turn affect the entire economy as unemployment rises. We should all be praying that GM is saved before it’s too late.

  • JEYKL & HYDE

    richo,

    you have my vote (this month) for best blog(re unions)…telling it how it is.legend…

    its kinda of whats happened to the banks,fuel companys,even the local grocery store.get to greedy for your own good,and it will contribute to your undoing…

  • Tom

    Elitist, what do you mean by civilised tastes?

    The VE is a word class car, and is no doubt comparable to the best Europe can offer up.

  • chase

    ” mean GM took Holden over back in 1930s [80 years after Holden was established] initially it was to establish a presence in the Asia Pacific region.. since then they have realised the potential they have on offer in Australia. ”

    Um…so what, please expalin the relevance to the above and a business case?

    “Do you really think GM would have given the $1bn project to build the VE the green light [when they were in worse financial situation than what they are now][ if they didn;t think that Holden couls build a versatile practical world class car that could be sold throughout the world if not build ars which use the same platform features etc.."

    I would not be surprised whatever the hell GM did, they don't have a clue, just 1 more bad decision.
    How the hell could they be in a worse financial position than they are at the moment, they can't pay next months bills ffs. Simply, another example of GM *issing money away.

    "Holden have proven themselves which is why they;re now involved in a number of other GM projects - I mean the International Design Chief at GM is an Aussie - Mike Simcoe "

    Holden has done a great job with its resources, but in a world sense, it is just not relevent, it will go, most likely be sold. Either way, they won't build them here anymore.

  • http://integra Leigh5

    Ford are in the best position as they still can run without the money straight away and should be able to find suppliers although it may interupt their production. GM will go….Holden will follow. Chrysler will go. GM and Chrysler cant totally restructure their business in 3 months when the bailout money will run out……..what then? zdoes the Gov give them another 50 billion to keep going? I dont think so…….bankruptsy is the best option for GM and Chrysler.

  • Frenchie

    The bad have just got worse! I’m not talking about the three mention here either!

  • Tom

    Leigh5, you have to think bigger picture, the american economy is destroyed, 1 in 5 jobs are in the auto industry, if the big 3 collapse it could result in an economic meltdown. And the government knows too well, once one goes, the suppliers will go and the other two will follow

    Holden will survive this, a indian or chinese company will buy them out and continue to produce cars. Same with the big GM brands. Stuff like the GM engine plant will likely to operate to supply motors to the subsiduaries in some sort of partnership agreement, the company will be stripped. It may actually be a positive thing, but the global financial meltdown won’t.

  • SamR

    Ford and GM will probably survive somehow while fuel is cheap.

    If/when oil goes back to $150 a barrel and beyond, which only an few months ago seemed extremely likely, then how can they survive?

    Their small cars are crap and WORSE, they make no money on them. The Volt is not the answer for at least 5 years if ever.

    Plus if GM ford and Chrysler fail then there are still plenty of other domestic producers to take over. Honda and Toyota both make cars in the USA

  • Alex

    I could stand seeing GM going because the only three worthwhile companies (Saab, Opel and Vauxhall) would either be bought or bailed out by their home country’s government. I don’t want to see Chrysler go because although I hate all Dodges and that horrible Sebring, I love the 300c and I also love Jeeps. Ford will be fine. I think it has been said that although Ford could really use the money, they won’t be going bankrupt just yet.
    I don’t think GM will be alright this time. I mean, I thought (and so did a lot of other people) they were poised to be handed a great big cheque and now they haven’t been. Maybe the US government is holding out another couple of days just to make them sweat?

  • Richo

    Alex – you just lost your credibility in posting on this subject by claiming that saab is a worthwhile company.. its the worst and least profitable in GM’s entire line up! The cars are massively outdated, don’t sell, and the ones they do sell they don’t make a profit on! lordy…

    Elitist, well, your just a dill. Judging the quality of a car based on who drives it is just idiodic, with a name like elitist i’m assuming you claim to be educated? your certainly not showing it! Driven an FG falcon lately? I challenge you to find a better drive this side of $100k, and the VE commodore, though not as good as the FG, is still probably the second best large sedan under $100k. Your judging your perceptions based on the models the two companies previously made as well as the drivers who drive them, surely a (supposedly) educated person can realise that this just isn’t logical?!?

  • RoFlmaTiC

    Any bail out WILL NOT change anything for GM. This is a company with 110 billion in assets, and 170 billion in liabilities.

    THEY ARE 60 BILLION DOLLARS IN DEBT.

    It is THAT simple.

    They have to file for chapter 11; this will mean that they will not have to pay all the pensions to the union workers etc, and they will actually be making money. Then issue new shares in the future and start fresh (learning from their mistakes). I think this is exactly what happened to Chrysler in 1982 but I am probably mistaken.

    I think if Ford play their cards right, they can actually take advantage of this situation. Off course they will have to figure out the supply side of things, but you would think they would benefit from the elimination of one of their big competitors. There’s plenty of americans who want american cars and who will turn to Ford if GM collapses.

  • Richo

    Jeykl – cheers mate, just call it how i see it. Sometimes people agree, other times (ok most of the time) people don’t!

  • Richo

    RoFlmaTiC – i agree with you that GM would probably come out of a chapter 11 bankrupcy a much stronger and more profitable company (only in america hey…) but the short term global ramifications that will have is just frightening! That’s what i worry about.

    In saying that, a GM consisting of just chevy, buick, cadillac, GMC, vauxhall, opel, daewoo and holden and with no bloody union debts would surely be a pretty strong animal in the automotive world! I think ultimately this is the model that GM will have to take on if it wants to survive, saturn, pontiac, saab and hummer have to go, as do, and probably most importantly, the unions!

  • RoFlmaTiC

    I think we’re up the creek regardless.

    The problem with recessions is that they are like self fulfilling prophecies. People expecting a recession change their actions in such a way as to cause them.

    People, unsure about the future tend to save more of their money, which means less spending which stunts economic growth etc. It’s the same with inflation. People think of inflation and then demand pay rises. As a result the employers etc have to raise the prices of their goods and services which causes inflation etc.

    I think it’s better for all this sh*t to happen at once; if it’s going to happen [the recession] it more than likely will. However like all downturns there is light at the end of the tunnel and relative prosperity will follow.

  • Elitist

    Tom Says:
    December 12th, 2008 at 10:47 pm
    Elitist, what do you mean by civilised tastes?
    The VE is a word class car, and is no doubt comparable to the best Europe can offer up.

    So you are saying a VE is comparable to Audi? BMW? Mercedes? Alfa Romeo?….
    Have you ever driven or owned a Euro car over $50k?
    You watch too much Tg australia and read too much Herald Sun…

  • Elitist

    *Media Watch voice over

    …And now this -

    Richo says:
    Elitist, well, your just a dill. Judging the quality of a car based on who drives it is just idiodic, with a name like elitist i’m assuming you claim to be educated? your certainly not showing it! Driven an FG falcon lately? I challenge you to find a better drive this side of $100k, and the VE commodore, though not as good as the FG, is still probably the second best large sedan under $100k.

    Ohhh God…..I wont be mean to you Richo… But seriously just one question..
    Do you…eat at Lazy Moe’s by any chance?

    And yes I have been in a new Falcon…
    A taxi picked me up the other day and it was the new 08 model thats how much class they have.

  • http://deleted Alex

    Richo, Saab is a worthwhile company, all of those alternative fuel concepts that they have presented over the years, General Motors never even gave them a chance. GM could have been the greenest car company in the world if they had just let Saab lead the way with technology and fuel but they didn’t and now it looks pretty certain to be bye bye GM in the next few weeks. I have not lost my credibility, GM should have listened to Sweden. I am fully aware that the 95 is a dismal car and the 93 is an old car and that they are currently a terrible brand, but I believe that they didn’t have to be but I don’t think GM gave them much funding or trust and they should have. The thing that I actually hate the most about this is that the electric car will be gone and Toyota will slide into first place to have one out.

  • Richo

    Alex, come on! Saab hasn’t been run by Sweeden for a very long time. All of the alternative fuel stuff was developed by GM and given to Saab to use to try and give the brand some kind of brand identity. And guess what, it didn’t work either! At the end of the day what are we talking about here, E85, the same stuff that GM holden are introducing accross their range next year right? Yeah but your right GM haven’t listened…

    Elitist – I’m guessing that you only hire people with private school education as well, only associate with people who drive what you beleive to be prestige cars, only eat at certain, supposedly high class, restaurants, only play golf with people with certain jobs…. we have one of those at work mate, he thinks he is gods gift to the planet, yet not one person has a nice thing to say to him when he isn’t around. He lives a sad empty life and i’m guessing you do too (and don’t try and deny it when you blog at 1.26am, sure that would be fine for shift workers, but surely a man of such breeding would be working an office job?) or maybe your just full of shit… i’m guessing the later! Anyway..

  • Motorhead

    You have to love the foresight of unions.

    I think big W will just give the minimum to keep Chrysler & GM plodding along until they’re Obama’s problem.

  • Dlr1

    Bankrupt by christmas! Check out fairfax and SMH for an interesting read on the Wagoner years. Between the unions, wagoner and all the other talentless d!ck$ they’ve had on the board in the last 25 years they never stood a chance.

    They dont appear to have made one rational decision in the last 10 years. They dont even have enough cash to close down their unprofitable brands. Auto news estimated they need at least one billlion dollars to shut its 400 odd Saturn franchises (they have to compensate the franchise owners under most state franchise laws). It would cost even more to shut other brands.

    Saab i think has at least some hope in that it is not based in the US and their cars arent just clones of other GM products, so like Ford and Volvo it is a brand that could be easily separated, but probably not for much. Maybe all they could do would be give it away.

  • Snowman

    Don’t forget if GM & Chrysler go under, so will most of the component suppliers in the USA – which cant be good news for Ford, as they also use the same suppliers.
    Most suppliers wouldn’t be able to survive 50%+ of their business going away. Ford would then have to source from somewhere else if possible, maybe even stopping production for some months until someone else could tool up?

  • Wheelnut

    Elitit – How many multi-millionaire Sheiks do you see driving around in Hyundais then mmmm?

    I don’t think that Sheiks made their money by wasting it on cheap unreliable cars with poor build quality etc – they have very high standards ;which is why the VE Commodore / WM Statesman have received Middle East Car Of The Year… beating Audis BMWs Mercs etc

    Not only that but has a Korean car ever been nominated for International Car of the Year

    And yes I have driven several European Cars which cost more than $50K.

  • Wheelnut

    Quote [Elite-twit] Everytime I see some looser do a burnout with a Holden down the freeway and make the area look like rubbish i say to myself… “I can’t wait to see Holden die and australia get civilized tastes”.

    Do you really think that IF Holden disappears that the hoon element will also disappear along with it

    All that means is that the IF Holden disappears and we import more European cars that hoons will switch over and start doing Burnouts in BMWs Audis Mercs etc

    You are also forgetting that because there are so many Commodores around and the facr that they are so reliable as well as cheap and easy to maintain; people will continue to buy them and Turn them in to V8 Street Machines. Which they will either use to show off their pride and joy and just cruise around in a civilised manner whilst others will do Burnouts.

    Because its not the car that makes the driver a hoon. its the mentality of the driver.. I mean Not all Commodore drivers are Hoons; in the same way that Not all Landcruiser Prado drivers are Image Conscious Wankers.

    it depends upon the drivers mentality etc

  • chase

    if GM go, the other 2 will be stronger. The US can only sustain a “big two” now. Throwing more money at GM is a waste of time, to late, to many bad decisions, bye bye.

    Wheelnut you must work for holden lifestyle magazine, hehe

  • Wheelnut

    Quote [Alex]: I could stand seeing GM going because the only three worthwhile companies (Saab, Opel and Vauxhall)

    You are obviously Angle Parked in a Parallel univers if you believe that.

    Whilst i agree with you that GM will keep Opel because of their FWD expertiese etc

    If you care to read Richos second comment you will see GM have said they wil keep Chev Buick Cadillac Opel and Holden but NOT Saab

    Saab was losing money before GM took them over and the fact that they have continued to lose money since then
    which indicates that they are a lost cause …

    And I don’t think things will change if the Sewedish governemt takes em over

    In the same way Chrysler was losing money before Daimler [Merc-Benz] took them over and continued to do so during the time of Merc-Benzs ownership. So unfiortunately I would have to say that Chrysler will also fold … not because I like the 300c [I don't its F-n Hideous] but because of the Awesome Mopar Hemi V8

    Holden is much more worth keeping than Saab as Holden has so much more potential – GM obviously realise this as Holden are and have been heavily involved in other GM projects – including improving Saabs.. GM will have taken advantage of Holdens RWD expertise

  • Dlr1

    Wheelnut, more references to Prado drivers being “image conscious wankers” and “toyo philes infecting the site” is starting to sound rediculous. Its almost as if you are overcompensating for something. You seem to be bringing up this subject at any opportunity. Perhaps you are trying to hide some deep dark secret. Perhaps you protest too much. Perhaps you secretly like Toyotas. Its kind of like the gaybasher who is really a homo and performs the act to prove he’s not one. (to those who donot understand sacrcasm this comment is entirely tongue in cheek, but not my tongue)

  • chase

    “Holden is much more worth keeping than Saab as Holden has so much more potential – GM obviously realise this as Holden are and have been heavily involved in other GM projects – including improving Saabs.. GM will have taken advantage of Holdens RWD expertise”

    jesus how thick does this guy lay it on, lmao. Nice to see all the help holden gave saab paid off, are they not losing even more money now :)

  • Wheelnut

    Chase – Thanks for the compliment.. it’s true I know alot about Holden however; I am intelligent; have a great memory and I look at things with foresight and think things through as to what the possible outcome of a range of various scenarios could be. I research and get my information a number of sources to verfy its accuracy etc. I also have connections within Holden and the Auto Industry

    Whereas the majority of [Un]Australian so called “car enthusiasts’ on here seem to think that if or when not just Holden but the entre Australian Automotive Industry disappears and the 40;000 od jobs along with it.. because they don’t work in the Car Industry that their job will be safe and that because tariffs will be reduced to 0% that cars will become cheaper – I very much doubt it.

    I mean look at other countries that don’t have a major industry such as a local car industry; look at how many people are out of work and how many can afford a new car…. My point exactly

    They have to import virtually everything and there is often someone [in either business or gummint] who increases the prices to the point very few people can afford anything be it a Food Furniture Clothes or even a Car… What makes them think Australia will be any different?

  • Richo

    Dlr1 – you say that Saab has some hope because it is not based on other GM products… umm… their V6 engines come from fishermans bend in melbourne (ie holden) and they have a whopping two models! One of which is the 9-3 which is built of the opel vectra platform (gm isn’t it?) and the 9-5 is built of a platform that is sold old that fred flinstone used to drive one. But your right Saab are just spiffy…

  • Richo

    i meant “so old” obviously, not “sold old”

  • Big_End_Bearing

    Hey Wheelnut, are you smarter than a 5th grader? I feel like a grammar nazi but have to point out that alot is not a word, the correct usage is a lot (two words). Just thought it was quite ironic considering you said you were intelligent.

  • http://aca Guess Who

    Holden has been losing alot of money aswell, they too are a lost cause.

  • http://aca Guess Who

    Wheelnut says he is intelligent but carn’t spell

    1. 40 000 not 40;000

    2. verify not verfy

    3. a lot not alot

    ps. GM managmenet have long believed they are intelligent with good foresight aswell but guess what, they are about to collapse.

    Yeah, real intelligent … NOT !!

  • http://aca Guess Who

    oooops … it is also food, furniture and clothes not food furniture and cloths.

    Don’t forget the ,,,,,,

    You are about as switched-on as GM !!

  • Frontman

    It’s funny how unnel visioned some people are. In one way it is a pitty that congress refused the loans, but it also opens up a huge possibility.
    As Richo, RoFlmaTiC and a couple of other have elluded to this makes way for GM to file for chapter 11, shut it’s doors and re-open as say General Automotive. No payouts, no health plans rehire only what they need at a rate they choose and have a completely de-unionised workforce. If you think that the workers won’t let them, 175,000 unemployed being offered 100,000 positions at half their former wage, just watch.

    We have seen this before, in 2000 > 2001. Remember the Riots being shown on Australian media concerning Daewoo Automotive and it’s unions? Filed for Bankruptcy. Closed the doors for (IIRC) 48 hours, re-opened as Daewoo Motor minus the unions and 2/3rds it’s workforce. All of a sudden the problem was solved with no ongoing payouts.

  • Wheelnut

    Spelling and grammar etc is related to literacy however every now and again everyone makes mistakes in the form of “typos” or using the wrong word etc – even though the english language is full of words which have the same or similar meaning

    Whereas intelligence is the ability to intrerpret the message not necessarily what is actually written or how it is written etc.. and workout what the person is trying to say or what the meaning of the message is.

    Therefore; if you were smart enough you would ignore the noise and or the spelling mistakes and still be able to understand what my point was..

  • RoFlmaTiC

    Pointing to people’s spelling on the internet = insta-lose debates. Who cares if Wheelnut makes typo’s, we all do and I certainly still understood his points.

    Guess who, you really look like an idiot with the above post:

    Guess Who Says:
    December 13th, 2008 at 12:51 pm
    Wheelnut says he is intelligent but carn’t spell

    Do you mean CAN’T spell?

    Then you correct his spelling of “alot” with “a lot”, yet in the post immediately above:

    Guess Who Says:
    December 13th, 2008 at 12:43 pm
    Holden has been losing alot of money aswell, they too are a lost cause.

  • wiki

    “The VE is a word class car, and is no doubt comparable to the best Europe can offer up.\” sure if oil and the financial and economic crisis were non existant not to mention the enviormental damage a VE engine would do. sure you cannot deny holden design brilliance but it is for and old era long gone when the price of oil was low and the climate change wasn\’t born yet. but then again commodores and falcons have horrible build qualities mainly the commodores.

  • wiki

    “You are also forgetting that because there are so many Commodores around and the facr that they are so reliable as well as cheap and easy to maintain\” yes in a loyal commodorian\’s eyes a commodore is never wrong and always reliable. commodore look great but thats just about it it is a fun car to drive but only if you have enough money to take it back to the dealership every now and then to fix the shoddy build quality

  • wiki

    “Its due justice. They have resisted efficiency measures attempted by their Government and consumer groups. They destroyed the electric car industry. Japan, Korean and German cars will now progress thanks to their innovation and genuine appeal to consumer interests.
    Good riddence to the big 3! ”
    spot on aaron

  • realcars

    Strange how the Republicans are the ones opposing a bailout.

    Just playing hardball and want the makers to suffer a bit more. This bailout is going to happen otherwise we may as well all succeed to China now.

    Chinalco will end up buying Rio Tinto and channel all the ore to China shortly.

  • realcars

    The Rudsters right better start learning Chinese.LOL

  • realcars

    Wiki nearly every other county with an auto industry has done the same. Sales are down across the board.

    American auto industry has been responsible for the development of many automotive innovations that have been copied by the Japanese etc.

    Bailout will happen otherwise America will collapse.Its that simple.

  • Wheelnut

    Roflmatic – I also noticed a couple of spelling mistakes by Guess Who?…. that’s right Guess Who

    Yet for someone to be focussing on spelling mistakes rather than actually saying something relative to the topic which the article is about gives the impression that they are more a-n-a-l than George Michael and need to get a life

    And before you get offended by that; to be called a-n-a-l implies that you’re a perfectionist; which George Michael is [ as are a number of other creative/artistic people] it’s just a double en tendre – that is a word with two meanings that can be taken a number of ways}.. Intelligent people would see that – the meaning behind the message.

  • realcars

    Hope the Govt intervenes and stops Chinese buying Rio Tinto.

    Yanks stopped Chinese buying second largest Oil producer a year ago. Chinese don’t play fair with their Govt owned companies buying private companies.

    Chinese buying up African resources at present.Or should I say buying Africa. Private companies cannot compete with a determined Govt backed company.

    Better learn Chinese.LOL.

  • RoFlmaTiC

    Realcars you can’t bail out a company that is in it as deep as it is.

    Every single General Motors share entitles you to 98 dollars of debt.

    Yes, they have a 60 billion dollar debt (which is growing by $52,000 US every minute) and 610 million shares so each one is worth about -$98 dollars.

    This is a company who pays factory workers 70 US dollars an hour in salary and benefits because of deals struck with the UAW. As it stands, no matter how much money you through at GM, how can it possibly compete with its rivals when it’s paying that sort of money?

    No disrespect for factory / automotive workers, but cmon, 70 dollars an hour is just plain silly.

  • RoFlmaTiC

    I saw this post in a finance forum on GM stock; I thought it was gold and still giggle when reading it :D

    Title: “I just cra pped a fuel cell”

    “It took me 3 hours after lunch to make it. And it has a potential BTU
    output much higher than anything GM can build.

    I have an idea for GM….

    Make a car that ACTUALLY runs on government money.

    You shove money in the tank, and it burns the cash to propel itself
    down the road. When it runs out, just fill it full of money again,
    and keep on going.

    Money is an unlimited resource, fuel and hydrogen are not.

    It can even be a hybrid, able to run on dollars, euros, yuans, or even
    pesos.

    Energy crisis solved folks.

    I should be a chairman of an auto company. “

  • wiki

    Wiki nearly every other county with an auto industry has done the same. Sales are down across the board but not every other country has the big 3 with over the top gas guzzling SUV’s and sedans and company CEO with obnoxious salaries. the big 3 have no body to blame but them selves and i dont see other than for the loss of 2.5 million job to bail them out. the only reason i support such a bailout is because of the impending apocalypse of job losses if they (big 3) are not saved

  • wiki

    “Money is an unlimited resource\” are you really that sure paper money comes from trees which is already in shortsupply and plastic money from petrol

  • RoFlmaTiC

    2.5 million workers?

    That sounds pretty inflated to me, (GM employs 266000 workers globally).

    But even using this number for arguments sake, then 25 billion dollars (the amount that GM and Chrysler were requesting) if paid from the US government directly to the workers would entitle them to $10000 each! Surely enough to see them through to find a job elsewhere? (Even if they won’t be able to make $70 dollars an hour without any qualifications)

  • RoFlmaTiC

    Wiki, the poster I quoted above was being sarcastic :)

  • wiki

    2.5 million indirectly

  • wiki

    I quoted above was being sarcastic – i know

  • wiki

    $70 dollars an hour without any qualifications. what sort of work do they do to earn that much money? seems way over the top

  • RoFlmaTiC

    Wiki take a look at this graph:

    www .heritage.org/Research/Economy/images/wm2162_chart1.gif

    However as the pension system in America differs from ours, not all of this money is paid in cash:

    “UAW workers are highly paid, but not all this compensation comes as cash wages. Breaking the $73.26 figure down, General Motors reports that it pays base wages of roughly $30 an hour. At the end of December 2006, the average vehicle assembler at GM earned $28.02 an hour; the average machine repair electrician earned $32.43.”

    Oh and just in case you guys didn’t notice, the bill to bail GM and Chrysler out was rejected by the US senate last night.

    GM’s only non-bankruptcy hope now is that Bush gives them money from the $700 bill bailout fund.

  • Sam

    George Bush is still in control of the mess that is America. Lets see wht wild stuff he will do in his last days. Going over the top of everyone to give the car makers cash is a high probability. George Bush = Failure

  • JEYKL & HYDE

    frontman,

    your spot on with the chapter 11 stuff.i too remember what happened at deawoo.your thought could very well ring true.

    holden aust are very much focused to the future.no doubt whats going on in the u.s.a. is a concern to them,but they are still making plans.vf,cruze,insignia,all in the pipeline.”seen to be green” on the enviromental front.maybe their love affair with big oil has run its race,kind of ironic since petrol is now down…

  • Wheelnut

    Plus Holden will be introducing a twin turbo / diesel V6 and possibly even a 4 cylinder Commodore.. as well as a small-medium sized car which Holden are planning to build on the old Vectra line at the other end of the factory in Elizabeth

    Which they will be able to do; when they start building LHD Commodores [Chevs] in Canada after the initial demand for the Camaro dies down.. as they share the same platform

    I’m just hoping GM and Holden rethink the idea to Import Caddies to Oz – Chevrolet has a bigger following in Oz than Cadi-yuck.

  • Falcodore

    Nobel economics prize winner Paul Krugman has been reported on other websites saying the US auto industry will likely disappear. I dont think that would affect GMs foreign subsidiaries (with the exception of Saab) if GMNA declared bankruptcy.
    In fact it could be a great oportunity for GMDAT, Holden, Opel to export to north america and for GM in the US to restructure its operations and sell these imports under 3 or 4 different brands instead of the 7 or 8 it currently has.
    As for Ford, people were saying what an idiot Alan Mulally was for selling the PAG division when he did. Now he looks like an evil genius!

  • http://skyline The Salesman

    Bush will step in and approve the bailout because congress failed to act. If GM goes into bankruptcy it will drag Ford with it and the US government simply won’t allow it to happen.
    Anti Spam = toyota :)

  • Andrew M

    Why hasnt Gm tried to save itself??

    as previously mentioned above, Mulally foresaw the trouble and started re organising fords assets to ensure they were strong enough to get through this.

    people initially thought ford was making silly/desperate decisions, but they were infact battening down the hatches, tidying up the lose objects and preparing for the storm.

    up to this day Gm is still there waiting for the money from the government, rather than preparing within itself.

    I think GM will file for bankrupsy. they will not be wiped out, but rather use it in a clever way to be debt free and start again with a bloody big heads up on where they should now head, and the way they should operate

    GM going bankrupt wont be a bad thing for them. They will certainly come out the otherside much stronger

    Wheelnut,
    I recognise that holden arent a weak link in the GM chain, but i highly doubt Holden will save GM’s day.
    tales of them running 3/4 of their operations from here (as you illude to) plain and simply wont happen.

  • BJ

    Falcodore,

    Krugman is wrong for one very simple reason; national security.

    The US could never cease to be a manufacturer of motor vehicles for that reason alone. Even if all three manufacturers cannot be saved at least one will be saved.

    The idea that the US would become dependent upon external sources such as Holden is sheer fantasy.

  • Richo

    so why does all the bullshit arguments always mount up against GM on this site? Ford is just as much in the shit as GM is, they just aren’t admitting to it as much. Doesn’t stop the brain dead ford fans coming on here saying “GM is shit, Ford is awesome, ra ra ra” despite the fact the article is about ford being in the shit too! oops…

  • Falcodore

    BJ, the US gov probably will bail out the american auto industry. GM and Ford will still have plants to make their full size pickups, suvs etc (which is still a big market), but in GMs case i think they could utilize their foreign subsidiaries for far less than what its costing them at the moment.

  • Falcodore

    Richo, as you can probably gather from my username im not biased one way or the other, i call a spade a spade. Its widely known that Ford is in a better position than GM, which is in a better position than Chrysler, which is basically dead especially now their suppliers want cash up front for parts supplied.

  • http://integra Leigh5

    Why bail out GM and Chrysler? Giving them billions of dollars WILL NOT SAVE THEM !!!! They can not restructure their entire business in 3 months…….theyy will still be broke then. They will waste the billions now and then keep asking for more, let them go under because while mthe US economy cant afford them going under they also cant afford to keep handing out money to inefficient companies.

  • http://integra Space Saver

    This is a change for this blog. It is well known that GM\Holden have their payed Ford bashers on all sites like this. Now, because people are bashing GM, idiots like Richo get their backs up !! lol Is it the prospect of Holden going bust that you dont like ? I know where any of you Holden bogans can buy a cheap Commode……there is about 15 acres of them sitting in paddocks on the Melbourne\Geelong road…….oh…and 11000 VE Pontiacs in the USA as well……lol lol lol lol lol lol

  • http://integra A Guy

    Holden must be shaking in their boots. They have no money for future projects and their parent will be gone soon. Bye Bye Holden !!!!! yipeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!

  • http://integra A Guy

    Alan Mulally deserves some credit here. He did something to try and save Ford. What did GM do? NOTHING ! Mulally foresaw what was coming and his action was quick and desicive. Sure, Ford are in trouble but they arent crying for money to save them.

  • TuffGuy

    A Guy you must be the world’s biggest retard, which figures because you are obviously a Fordophile. You need to wake up and smell the roses moron because if and when Holden go under so too will Fraud. So too will around 200,000 people be on the dole queues. So it would actually be funny if you just happened to work in the industry, for Fraud perhaps, because then you would have been laughing so hard at your own demise you idiot.
    Perhaps what the most immediate thing Bush should do is to stand up and pass legislation cancel the UAW, the main reason for them going broke.

  • Falcodore

    yeah, a guys post at 8:00pm was just stupidity. Anyone with any intelligence would know it would be bad for the oz economy if Holden, Ford or for that matter Toyota shut up shop in this country.
    His 2nd post was, generally speaking, true.

  • http://integra A Guy

    Tuffguy……..you cant spell ! lol Its FORD FORD FORD FORD…..does itm help if I repeat it ? Not Fraud…….idiot. which figures because you are obviously a Holden bogan.

  • http://integra Archie

    I dont care if GM go under or not but I cant see why billions of taxpayers money should be given to poorly run companies like GM. Why dont they just let them go to the wall and get over it. In a society that relies so much on money it is just a business cycle. Ups and downs, highs and lows, boom and bust..that is how it works. GM obviously dont know what they are doing so get rid of them and let someone else take over. Life will go on…….

  • Richo

    A Guy – i think he intentionally wrote fraud instead of ford… are you a bit slow mate?

    Space Saver – if you haven’t noticed, there are alot more ford fans on this site then holden fans, so i’m not sure what your getting at

    Archie – it’s not about saving GM, Ford or Chrysler, its about saving jobs, do you really not get that?? are people on this site really that stupid?! This is nothing at all to do with saving GM, Ford and Chrysler and EVERYTHING to do with saving jobs. The narrow mindedness of some people on this site is really quite disturbing

  • http://integra Archie

    Richo…….job loses are a part of life in a monetary society. Like i said its a cycle. Jobs get lost and are made up somewhere else. Its not a perfect world we live in you idiot.
    You obviously dont know anything at all about how business works…….look back through history and you will see there is always a recession after a long period of growth…….JUST FOR YOU RICHO i will say it again……THATS HOW IT WORKS !
    you have answered you own question as well….you ‘asked “are people on this site really that stupid? well yes you are !

  • JEYKL & HYDE

    archie,

    try and keep your personal b.s.out of reality.you simply can’t be in the auto game.let me guess,your a teacher,broker,public servant,and you drive an a to b car.tell you what,lets get rid of all the auto giant’s to china,india,thailand etc.now lets piss off half the banks(lets not forget their bailout)as well.let all the business burned by the stock market crash go too(abc child care one example).lets then dissolve every other business that feeds off those now deleted businesses.oh,and lets get rid of all those wingeing farmers as well,we can get cheap food o.s.

    are you getting it yet knobhead.if you had ventured down you main street today,i bet you would of seen a thousand people buying stuff with the money that mr rudd had kindly donated to struggling family’s,with the mission of “spend,spend,spend(daily telegraph).surely if the government see’s the instant need to spend ALL its surplus,you might look past your shiny shoe’s and realise the GLOBAL economy is in real trouble, its not just g.m. and crysler.still don’t believe me,well wait 9-10 more months,it will be crystal clear…

  • Richo

    Archie – firstly the recession has very little to do with this, GM, ford and chrysler where in trouble well before the recession hit. Their sliding sales where due in large part to rising oil prices, something the recession has actually driven down, actually helping the big three at the moment. Yes the recession means less cars are being built, but thats effecting all car manufacturers, not just GM, ford and chrysler. Their problems are quite seperate to the issues this current recession has created. Also ofcourse a recession always follows a prolonged period of growth, thats just basic economics. The markets always overshoot on the way up, and in turn overshoot on the way down, happened before, happening now, will happen again.

    Also, just for your own information, throughout modern history, whenver a potential company collapse would have led to major job losses, world governments have had a long history in stepping in. Is that something that should be done in a perfectly capitalistic society? Ofcourse not, but we don’t live in a perfectly capitalistic society now do we. Tell me, ABC learning centres are going tits up at the moment, correct me if i’m wrong but i think the aussie government is providing assistance are they not? Are they doing it for Eddie? ofcourse not his already rooted, they are doing it for the customers and the workers. Same thing here mate, just on a much larger scale.

    Jekyl is right, you do seem to know alot about the theory behind things and the way things SHOULD be done, but you have a very small grasp on the realities of this world and the responsibilities governments have to their constituants.

    Somehow though, i feel like no matter what i say you are still going to live within your perfect little bubble where only what textbooks say should happen happens.

  • Elitist

    Jeykl,
    I feel some merits towards your comments as I believe the big 3 going down was done on purpose to reorganize without Unions. This was something that only happened in communist russia and china in the last decade but I believe its happening to the “free world” now.

    The fact is no matter how much they(Ford/Holden) pay off “car of the year” awards, noone is buying their outdated technology. The proof the cars are below standard is they don’t compete in the real world against other cars, they just compete amongst themselves.
    Compare a Holden or Ford v8 to say one from Lexus.

    I always judge a car company by it’s base models.

    I remember seeing a review of a FPV Ford in a German magazine when they took it around the Nurb in 2004. The Germans said this is a great car….. for 5 years ago.

  • Elitist

    Richo -
    Your comments about saving jobs is a honorable mention and I do agree with you on that (all previous arguing aside)…. But in what capacity is where we differ….

    I know people who used to work for F&H for 20 years and left after retrenchment and are now at Toyota. They are now proud of what they do and are treated better.

    If we closed F&H tomorrow and all the workers moved to making Toyota and say Honda cars, they would have better job security as these companies are in the running to making cars the future wants. Efficient, technology savvy Hybrids/Petrol cars Australia should be driving instead of trying to be a mini America.

  • Wheelnut

    Quote [Elitist] If we closed F&H tomorrow and all the workers moved to making Toyota and say Honda cars, they would have better job security as these companies are in the running to making cars the future wants.

    that all depends on whether or not Honda or whoever from Overseas is willing tolet alone can afford to takeover the factories at Broadmeadows Geelong Elizabeth and Clayton.

    As history has shown; to just build small cars – which is what Honda and Hyundais range is predominantly made up of as well as their best sellers; isn’t really profitable.. it needs to be supplemented with the production of a large family sized car.

    In the past Ford built both the Falcon and the Laser here whilst Holden built the Torana and the Kingswood.

    Even though the market for Large cars aren’t as popular ATM as they were a couple of years ago; there will always be people out there who want a [V8] Commodore or Falcon

  • Wheelnut

    Quote [Elitist] The fact is no matter how much they(Ford/Holden) pay off “car of the year” awards, noone is buying their outdated technology. The proof the cars are below standard is they don’t compete in the real world against other cars, they just compete amongst themselves.
    Compare a Holden or Ford v8 to say one from Lexus.

    Yet the Commodore is still Australia’s Most Popular Selling Car [1/2 of which are V8s] with the Falcon in 3rd…
    Where is Lexus?

  • o

    Lexus isn’t there because it is grossly overpriced by certain things such as tariffs and LCT designed to protect the local manufacturers

  • http://australancaradvice McKay

    50% of Commodore sales are not V8′s as fleet purchases account for approx 80 – 84% of thier sales. Same goes for the Falcon.

    How many fleets buy a Lexus or even a BMW, Merc or Audi for that matter ??

    As for the American trio, i have nodoubt the once ‘BIG 3′ will probably emerge as the ‘Medium 2′ at the very best.

    The European, Japanese and even Korean manufactuers all stand to benefit from the imminent grounding of GM (and Chrysler) and naturally will be soaring around like eagles waiting to feast.

    But then again, GM is in just a poor state that there wouldn’t be anything more to eat then just raggie old bone.

  • http://integra Archie

    Richo…..it is you who live in a bubble. You are so not up with the real world. Get back under your rock……lol

  • Duck

    Buick GM need to “scrap” or “sell”……………….

    - GMC (you don’t see much GMC’s any more in the USA, as Chevy sell mosts of the trucks and pickups)
    - Hummer (worthless)
    - Pontiac (wortless too!)
    - Saab
    - Saturn (pretty much an American Opel)

    GM can keep……….

    - Buick
    - Cadillac
    - Holden
    - Opel
    - Vauxhall
    - Chevrolet
    - Daewoo

    ^^^^^^^^^Holden, Opel, Chevrolet and Daewoo I’m guessing are GM’s most profitable companies they have, so keep them.

    GM also has very small share in Suzuki too I think. But very small. I think it’s 3% or something. But it would be good if they could invest more money in Suzuki in the future, if there will be one for General Motors. GM needs some Japanese Technology, to borrow from.

    (Off topic from GM) Now should Chrysler sell Jeep? I think they should.

    P.S. Should GM keep Saab? Isn’t Saab good competition with Volvo in Sweeden?

  • Duck

    ^^^^^^^^By the way that word Buick is not supposed to be in front of the word GM at the top (TYPO).

  • Elitist

    Wheelnut if someone offered you a top of the line Holden or a Top of the Line Lexus which would you take?….I’m just curious?

  • http://integra Archie

    McKay i totally agree…….whats the point of saving GM when its just rotting meat? if they bail them out it will be just prolonging the inevitable……..why cant people face up to that FACT ? Times change ……….time for GM and Chrysler to fade into history. They will become an endless money pit for the US taxpayer and that is something they can afford even less than them going out of business.

  • max

    Give GM 20 billion now, this time next year they will need another 20 billion.

    Maybe its time for just the big “1″ in the US. Better 1 strong company than 3 basket cases. Make no mistake, GM is a basket case, how will they increase sales when we have just started a 5 year recession(probably), and you can just see people lining up to buy Saab and hummer.

    This is just globalization happening, economic evolution is all(in GM’s case they should shoot their management of the last 30 years). In time the asians will also go through this.

    Help the strong, the weak pay for their mistakes.

  • max

    No offence wheelnut but they sell 45000 commies are year, in global terms..BIG DEAL!

    Archie people don’t get this because their lives revolve around cars, their holden, their ford, their toyota, how else could you ignore reality.

    Thing is tho, this is happening now, their heads are still stuck in the sand, not much different to GM’s management actually :)

  • max

    Sorry with exports maybe 100000 commies are year, still in global terms..BIG DEAL.

    In local terms it is an excellent achievement, but we are only a bit player unfort :(

  • Wheelnut

    Elitist – that woyuld depend upon which car was the most suitable for my needs at the time as well as insurance premiums and cost of repairs. As i believe do your research and if you can’t afford to fix it don’t buy it.

    I currently drive a 02 2.5 litre Subaru Impreza RS
    [non-turbo WRX] because at the time when i was looking for a new car i was single and therefore didn’t particularly need a large RWD sedan. And Holdens smaller cars are/were aren’t as good as theor rivals.. So I looked at Ford Mitsubishi Mazda VW and Toyota yet it was the Subaru that had the features etc I was looking for.. plus it has the added bonus of AWD

    Obviously since then; other better newer cars have been released However; as I am not a blind brand loyal “Badge Snob” and don’t feel the need to try and outdo the joneses by upgrading my car every month I still have the Subie because its safe; practical cheap to run reliable comfortable and its performance and handling is still really good..

    I your’e happy with what you’ve got why upgrade to something else which may not be what you need just because it has a “flash” badge on it? it may be more trouble than its worth and you will end uup regretting the decision.

  • Wheelnut

    However; having thought about it I would have to say that I would go for the Lexus…. then immediately sell it or trade it in on something more decent.. a real luxury car

  • http://australiancaradvice McKay

    That’s what Lexus is, a REAL LUXURY CAR and now even with a REAL PERFORMANCE CAR and none of this unreliable, wonna-be pretend stuff from Holden.

  • The Realist

    Wheelnut just doesn’t give up does he? How much do 100% American owned GMH and FA pay him?? Some of his comments make him sound like he’s 10 years old. With the rambling to match!!

    “I am intelligent; have a great memory and I look at things with foresight and think things through as to what the possible outcome of a range of various scenarios could be. I research and get my information a number of sources to verfy its accuracy etc.”
    This is the funniest thing I’ve read all year!!! If you’re trying to justify your biased comments, that was pathetic.

    “I also have connections within Holden and the Auto Industry”

    Gee, as if we didn’t know…

    “Whereas the majority of [Un]Australian so called “car enthusiasts’ on here seem to think that if or when not just Holden but the entre Australian Automotive Industry disappears and the 40;000 od jobs along with it.. because they don’t work in the Car Industry that their job will be safe and that because tariffs will be reduced to 0% that cars will become cheaper – I very much doubt it.”

    You’re delusional – can you even show me all these arm chair experts who think cars will get cheaper? I think most people on here know our European car prices are jacked up by the manufacturers, and of course the ridiculous “tall poppy” LCT’s we have.

    Do you work for that dinosaur Sharon Burrows? There is no other explanation for always bringing up job losses and the hyperbole about “working families” if our pathetically low tech manufacturing industry goes down. And it is ancient – I’ll bring up examples of how behind the times we are as a manufacturing nation if the intellectuals on this blog think that building a car is complicated. If 40,000 people lose their jobs, their will be an obvious social impact – but it will correct itself again – just like when we lost 50,000 people from steel making.

    “I mean look at other countries that don’t have a major industry such as a local car industry; look at how many people are out of work and how many can afford a new car…. My point exactly”

    What are you talking about? Further dribble??

    “I don’t think that Sheiks made their money by wasting it on cheap unreliable cars with poor build quality etc – they have very high standards ;which is why the VE Commodore / WM Statesman have received Middle East Car Of The Year… beating Audis BMWs Mercs etc”

    Do you think it was Sheiks that voted mate? Have you seen the accreditations of the journalists? Have you even seen the past winners of the award? I’ll let you do some research before I correct you again.

    “Because its not the car that makes the driver a hoon. its the mentality of the driver.. I mean Not all Commodore drivers are Hoons; in the same way that Not all Landcruiser Prado drivers are Image Conscious Wankers.”

    Ahh, the blatant Toyota bash comes out again. It must be jealousy. I mean, why else would you bring out a dig at Toyota in this blog. It must rile you guys up at Holden to know that Toyota is killing you guys in the sales stakes – and they don’t even provide cars to the pollies either. Toyota also exports more vehicles than GMH, especially to the Middle East. To use your own comments “I don’t think that Sheiks made their money by wasting it on cheap unreliable cars with poor build quality etc – they have very high standards”. Guess where the bulk of FWD Toyota Camry’s goes…

    “Yet the Commodore is still Australia’s Most Popular Selling Car [1/2 of which are V8s] with the Falcon in 3rd…
    Where is Lexus?”

    Of course they’re popular – fleet sales. I saw a whole bunch of Omegas and FG’s sitting in Terminal 3 at Sydney Airport with the word “taxi” flashing above them. And then again when I walked past Thrifty. What do you think the proportion of V8 Caprice sales are mate?

    “I am not a blind brand loyal “Badge Snob” and don’t feel the need to try and outdo the joneses by upgrading my car every month”

    You are a badge snob mate – you love your Holdens, and defend them to the point of making ridiculous comments.

    “However; having thought about it I would have to say that I would go for the Lexus…. then immediately sell it or trade it in on something more decent.. a real luxury car ”

    Like a Holden Calais or Ford Fairmont, sorry G6E? With their raft of features and quality? And of course the primo service in their showrooms.

  • The Realist

    BTW, people here seem to have a distaste for the AWU – our Unions are very similar, watch where this country goes in five years time…

  • Duck

    ^^^^^^^^^Pretend stuff? What are you on???!?!?!????!!!!!!!!

  • Duck

    Note: That my last comment I made was aimed at McKay

  • max

    LOL, nice one realist.

  • Falcodore

    Im betting shieks dont drive camrys or commodores. They would sell to pretty much the same demographic they do here,ordinary ppl and fleet sales. I know for a fact the holden is used by their police force as hwy patrol cars.
    No, the shieks would be driving customised european supercars, because whats half a mill to them?
    I dont know how Lexus got into this but everybody knows they are Toyotas “premium” (re:overpriced) brand. I mean how premium can they be when the top-line Lexus uses the exact same DSC system as a base model camry?

  • Tomas79

    Well said Realist,
    As I have always said, wheelnut has un-healthy fascination for Toyotas, most probably brought on by envy, and/or some mental issue.

    Wheelnut says;“ I mean Not all Commodore drivers are Hoons; in the same way that Not all Landcruiser Prado drivers are Image Conscious Wankers.”

    Out of all the pretend SUV such as BMW x5, Ford Territory, GM Hummer H3 which are well renowned for it’s poser drivers he picks out the Toyota Prado a genuine 4wd, and its drivers to insult!! What a tool!!

    Another funny thing I find is how the Falcadore Fan Club on this site maintains that GM Holden is one of GM’s most profitable badges, and will be kept. Didn’t Holden make another multi million dollar loss this year? In another words, it’s loosing GM’s money! Hence it’s not very profitable is it?!

  • topdog

    Just let GM go no point lossing to much money who cares. The ones that survive such as ford will pick up the slack there sales will jump and thay will have to employ lot more people to keep up with demand when things pick up and keep most suppliers going.So america will have a stronger car company

  • Falcodore

    Tomas, it wasnt so long ago when Holden was the only profitable brand GM had. Sure, its losing money now but not as much as other GM brands. Name me 1 car company that hasnt been affected by this economic crisis?
    GM seems to be the 1 everybody on this blog is focusing on but chrysler is basically dead in the water. Guess nobody cares cause they dont have a manufacturing presence in this country.
    As ive said before, Ford seem to be in the best position to get through this mess. Hopefully this means there is a future for a global rwd Falcon.
    As for the person who said ozzie car companies are dinosaurs, why is it that Ford and GM AND Toyota have centres of excellence for design and engineering in this country? Because we are the best at it, thats why.

  • Tomas79

    Falcadore,
    Being effected by the current economic crisis is one thing, and successively losing money year after year like Holden has is another!! They made a losses last year, during a booming economy!!

    Falcadore says,
    ” why is it that Ford and GM AND Toyota have centres of excellence for design and engineering in this country? Because we are the best at it, thats why.”

    Did you read that on their brochure, or their websites??
    Are we the best, just like thailand and south korea? Or even china who designs many more cars?!

    Don’t get me wrong, I’m pro developing car R&D industry in Australia, but lets remove those nationalistic pride goggles and lets see what we really have here at the moment..

  • bmw

    The VE has lost money 2 or 3 years in a row, you can bet 2009 will be another 150 million dollar loss.

    Sales continue to decline, ffs its almost cheaper to buy an epica diesel now (drive away) than a tarted up VE.

  • bmw

    …ffs its almost cheaper to buy an tarted up VE now than an epica diesel (drive away}, soz folks, coffee shortage :)

  • max

    Please noone bring up the volt, I swear I will puke!

  • Falcodore

    Lets see, we have Ford OZ charged with the design and engineering of the next gen ranger/BT50 twins for asia/pacific region and design of the asian/indian fiesta and we all know holdens involvment in GMs global rwd architecture.Even Toyota japan realize the talent we have in this country ffs! Thats what we have at the moment, tomas. No goggles required.:)

  • JEYKL & HYDE

    elitist,

    thanks for the feed back,but it was richo and frontman who first commented on the stupid union based workers conditions which are ruining g.m.america.i think deep down even wheelnut(poor bugger)would entertain g.m. going broke if they started up two days later a leaner more profitable company and got rid of all their useless brands

    don’t mind lexus also(is250 fav)but alas i’m a humble family man on a passion pop budget.ve 4 me

    wheelnut,as least you can sell the suby next year,climb into an insignia,and the world will be a better place…

  • Bavarian Missile ( . ) ( . )

    Quote ” Don’t get me wrong, I’m pro developing car R&D industry in Australia, but lets remove those nationalistic pride goggles and lets see what we really have here at the moment..

    hahaha sure you are pro developing R&D in Australia Tomas,as long as its not Holden and Ford. What do you think Toyota will do IF HOLDEN and Ford were to close down in Australia?Holden spends more on R&D in Australia than Toyota or Ford currently. There would be no R&D to worry about if they closed down ,Toyota would pack its bags and head back to the land of the rising sun ,no competitors to hassle down under. Any of you anti Holden and Ford lovers think of what will happen to the parts suppliers in Australia that currently supply all 3 manufacturers? If Toyota was left standing by itself they would be forced to shut down ,think about all the components in a car and where Ford and Holden are sourcing them from currently,they would go to the wall the list of manufactures that would shut because of their closure would spiral ,thats thousands of jobs lost everywhere in Australia. Good to see in these hard financial times people just want to see the worst happen to those they really have no idea of how much they contribute to OUR great country ,but hey be un-Australian.

    Remind me again was it Ford that got the first 5 star in safety this year Holden second ,Toyota wont have to worry about meeting any safety bench mark set from good old Australian R&D if Holden and Ford go will they ? What else would go from so called reliable safe Toyota?

  • Wheelnut

    What we Have here in Australia at the moment are a range of cars – VE Ommodore [ SS Ute Sportwagon] Ford Falcon and Toyota Camry/Aurion that are all of such a high standard that they are able to “Holde their Own” against number of cars from all over the world and in some cases beat them

    Both the VE and the Camry are selling well and won awards in the Middle East.

    The G8 is receiving praise from car enthsiasts on US blogsites.. sales have slumped but that’s not because of the car that’s because of the Economy.

    Holden parent company GM is using Holdens RWD R&D and experience for a range of new projects including the iconic Camaro

    Toyota has chosen Australia to build Hybrid versions of the Camry/Aurion

    Ford has Decided to build the Popular Focus in Australia

    So regardless of where your allegiances lie; All Australains should be proud of how well the locals have done and are doing..a s they are all receivng international recognition to a varying degree

    As BM said with out the competition between Holden Ford and Toyota there will be no incentive to improve their products because its competition that has made the locally built cars from all 3 manufacturers improve over the past 10-20 years in terms of performance; safety; reliability and features etc.

  • Wheelnut

    Ask someone whats the first thing you think of when you hear the term Bogan? and they would most likely say someone form a working claas or low socio ecomnomic suburb who drives a Commodore.

    Why? because you see more of them as there are generally more Commodores on the road

    Ask the same person whats the first thing you think of when you hear the term 4×4? and they would most likely say Landruiser?

    Why? because you see more of them as there are generally more Landcruisers on the road

    You must realise Tomas79 that people tend to group people together based on certain characteristics/behaviours etc and/or common/general sterotypes which are often influenced by the media

    And remember I also said that Not all Commodore drivers are Hoons; in the same way that Not all Landcruiser Prado drivers are Image Conscious Wankers.” So I wasn’t specifically talking about you – don’t take it personal

  • Elitist

    I have a friend who just bought a new Lexus IS.
    He showed me through the car and although I don’t like it styling over European cars I have to say japanese are the best in making premium technology more affordable.

    His new Lexus has that radar in the front bumper than senses cars ahead of you and adjusts its braking. How long will it take for Holden or Ford to get this AND work right…
    I’d say 8-10 yrs in a Statesman.

    Soon all Holdens will be based on that Chinese “Brilliance” sedan…
    They already use Daewoo, so it’s a matter of time.

  • RoFlmaTiC

    Good posts wheelnut!

    Healthy competition is a win for the consumer in almost all industries (except natural monopolies). The last thing we need is the auto industry turning out into a Coles / Woolies duopoly!

  • Falcodore

    Well said BM, Dont think Tomas knows or cares about the oz/US auto industry or how many ppl it affects. I think he would be happy if Toyota were the only manufacturer on the planet judging by how defensive he gets when someone mentions them whether it be bad or indifferent.Which means we could all be driving around in whitegoods or in lexus’s case, wrapped in stainless steel. (same thing with bling and more expensive)
    Max, now you mentioned the Volt i feel queazy. But in all seriousness, from what ive read i think the Volt will be a better proposition than the Prius. 

  • Bavarian Missile ( . ) ( . )

    ” His new Lexus has that radar in the front bumper than senses cars ahead of you and adjusts its braking. How long will it take for Holden or Ford to get this AND work right…
    I’d say 8-10 yrs in a Statesman.

    Answer ” Lexus are nothing but a bunch of imitators ,what you think Lexus developed that idea ?hahaha sure they did,they leave the real R&D in gadgets and gimmicks to Germans mate!

    Quote “Soon all Holdens will be based on that Chinese “Brilliance” sedan…
    They already use Daewoo, so it’s a matter of time.

    WTF ???????Grow up ,what are you 12?

  • Tomas79

    Bavarian Missile ( . ) ( . ) Says: “hahaha sure you are pro developing R&D in Australia Tomas,as long as its not Holden and Ford”

    That is just plain stupid, and not true!! Not everyone on here is a badge Fanatic like you and Wheelnut!!

    Bavarian Missile ( . ) ( . ) Says: “What do you think Toyota will do IF HOLDEN and Ford were to close down in Australia?”

    Obviously pick up Fords and Holdens slack!!

    Bavarian Missile ( . ) ( . ) Says: “Holden spends more on R&D in Australia than Toyota or Ford currently. ”

    How do you know that?? Please provide me with a reputable reference showing me how much all of the 3 big players spend on R&D in australia in the same context?! Unless you can do that, you are talking out of your @rse!

    Bavarian Missile ( . ) ( . ) Says: “Remind me again was it Ford that got the first 5 star in safety this year Holden second ,Toyota wont have to worry about meeting any safety bench mark set from good old Australian R&D if Holden and Ford go will they ? What else would go from so called reliable safe Toyota?

    Um.. Ford, Holden, and Toyotas are car companies with multiple model lineups, each with different safety rankings. Large Family Sedans don’t interest me, especially in terms of “Ford vs Holden Vs Toyota “, better save it for your next family discussion next time you cracking open some tinnies, on a couch out in your front lawn!

    Wheelnut Says :” So I wasn’t specifically talking about you – don’t take it personal”

    You were referring to me, and others on this site that drive a Prado…
    When you talk about flashwankers in SUV, people tend to associate expensive softroaders, that have more form then function, such as BMW X5’s etc….

  • Wheelnut

    Tomas79 – Stop being so bloody Paranoid..

    I said people who drive 4x4s are “Image Conscious Wankers”

    Not a 29 year Old “engineer” who was born in Europe but now lives in Western Australia and drives a Green 2008 Toyota D4D Automatic Prado.

    it was a general comment.. a stereotype based on the characteristics and behaviour of the majority of 4×4/SUV owners that you see out on the road – as I said it just happens that you see more Landcruisers and Prados than anything else..

    In the same way you and others call Commodore Drivers Bogans

  • Falcodore

    Tomas you’re right, not everyone is a badge fanatic here. Unfortunately for you the badge you fantasize about means you’ve given up on life and dont care about driving enjoyment.
    Toyota will not pick up Ford and Holdens slack, at least not to the extent you think because there are ppl out there who actually ENJOY driving their cars. Something Toyota and their fanatics just dont seem to compehend.

  • Falcodore

    I meant ‘comprehend’…sorry

  • Wheelnut

    For instance I met a guy today who drives a White 2008 D4D Prado and he was a really interesting person who bought it because it meets the requirements of both his family and his lifestyle… not just because its a trendy 4×4

  • Andrew M

    this is funny stuff………..

    you heard it here first……
    apparently the R&D credits mean nothing if Tomas isnt interested in the subject.

    its like not acknowledging the moon landing because he isnt an astronomer.

    wheelnut,
    building the focus and hybrid camry here arent stripes on the shoulder of the respective manufacturers R&D crew in OZ because they are models that are already developed.

    but aside from that, what you showed with the other notes is that OZ does have some pretty good R&D crews here.

    I also read that the Ford guys that worked on the FG received 2 top notch engineering awards for their work.
    ill have to dig up that article……..

    Tomas,
    you are arguing whether or not tholden does spend the most on R&D, yet fail to see that the $ value of thr R&D means nothing.
    anyone who wasnt here just to stir shyte would simply ask why they have to spend more, for it still not show.

    You arent fooling anyone, you are here to stir rubbish for your kicks only. What a sad life it must be

  • Wheelnut

    That’s right Andrew M; just because you didn’t read about it.. hear about it or know about it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.. doesn’t happen.. can’t happen.. or won’t happen happen.

  • Bavarian Missile ( . ) ( . )

    Quote “Not everyone on here is a badge Fanatic like you and Wheelnut”

    That’s your opinion Tomas I see the same in you,

    Quote ” but lets remove those nationalistic pride goggles and lets see what we really have here at the moment.. “”

    WTF ????????? So we shouldn’t be proud of what this country has achieved already ?We may not have the population from where you originally came from Tomas but WE true Australians are proud of what this great Country has developed for the small population it has,not proud of it then I’m sure there is a plane back to where ever you came from! Im even proud of the fact that we manufacture boring Camrys,means we are capable of doing so to the standards Toyota desire!

    Don’t be dumb there will be no Toyota in Australia if Ford and Holden goes,there back where they started from!You think someone that enjoys a car a will buy a Toyota…….hahaha I guess the Cardy and hat factories would be back in business if they did though,hehehe

    You make it seem Toyota is the worlds only choice if Holden and Ford go……you wish !

    I said ” Bavarian Missile ( . ) ( . ) Says: “Holden spends more on R&D in Australia than Toyota or Ford currently. ”

    You don’t watch TV do you I forgot………..I guess you wouldn’t have heard that statement from Holden in one of their adds then!

    Talking out my arse ha? Didn’t take you long to throw some abuse in did it?But what a cute arse it is even if I do say so myself!

    Quote Tomas “Um.. Ford, Holden, and Toyotas are car companies with multiple model lineups, each with different safety rankings. Large Family Sedans don’t interest me, especially in terms of “Ford vs Holden Vs Toyota “, better save it for your next family discussion next time you cracking open some tinnies, on a couch out in your front lawn!

    Yeah but you seem to think {but I doubt it }that Toyota are the legends for that in this country .I was pointing out to you that it seems they are passing Toyota and it seems in one of the most important areas when it comes to building and designing cars in Australia for some,SAFTY! Me beer…….mmmmmmmmm I have too much class to drink beer and way too much style to drive a boring Toyota,Ill leave that up to you,oh and I live on the escarpment in Kalamunda so why would I want to sit on the lawn ,I thought that’s whats people like you did in the BURBS…….Ill sit on the balcony and over look the city lights with my glass of yellowglen thanks .

    Oh and if you think you can wind me up with comments like the Tinnie one………..I can be a much bigger b.i.t.c.h than you can,more experience with dealing with smartarse wankers I guess.

  • Wheelnut

    Answer this than Tomas

    If Toyota are so much better than Holden or Ford why is it that given that they have so much more money and resources than Holden and Ford do they chose to build a locally made replica of a car which is built elsewhere in the world

    Instead of designing and building another uniquley Australian RWD car like Ford and Holden which could then be expoerted overseas and become another addition to their range particularly as Toyota are hell bent on entering as many markets as possible..

    Then maybe they would have a more direct rival to the Falcon and Commodore instead of a modified tweaked car from the USA

    Because part of the reason GM and Ford are in trouble is because they have a number of plants in the USA oprating at less than 60% capacity building exactly the same cars

    I mean regardless of who you follow if You’re an Aussie; you’d have to admire Holden who took the gamble and approached GM with plans to build a completely new 100% Australian designed car at a time when GM were in a worse financial situation than what they are now.. GM gave them the go ahead because they knew of Holdens expertise and could see it s potential

    That on its own indicates how much Holden meansd to GM compared to what Toyota Oz means to Japan doesn’t it

  • Falcodore

    Careful BM, we seem to have the same opinion about tomas but i drink beer and like to think i have decent taste.
    For example, i think Tooheys Extra Dry and Coronas are a nice drop (not into wine myself) and i live in a unit block so dont have a front yard but after work i like sitting on the balcony drinking an ice cold T.E.D, ejoying a nice NE breeze and watching the world go by.
    Wont drink out of a can as i think it ruins the purity of a beer.

  • Andrew M

    BM,
    too much class to drink beer??
    whats class got to do with tastes??

    I drink what tastes good to me.

    no way Im going to suck on red wine just to feel classy

  • Falcodore

    Agree Wheelnut, but Toyota do have a design centre here which means even japan sees the talent and expertise in this country

  • Andrew M

    Falcadore,
    I posted before I saw your post.
    ha ha ha ha ha

    seems we both share the same thought on that subject.

    Im also not a fan of the can.

  • Elitist

    Bavarian –
    Quote “Soon all Holdens will be based on that Chinese “Brilliance” sedan…
    They already use Daewoo, so it’s a matter of time.
    WTF ???????Grow up ,what are you 12?

    Holden Epica and Barina use Daewoo platform…
    GM is said to have a stake or seeking a stake in China Brilliance car factory..
    Disappointed in you Bavarian…

  • Tomas79

    Falcodore,
    What brand do I fantasy about? Just because I own a Toyota does not automatically make me Fan of Toyota!!

    Andrew M,
    I have no idea what you are going on about??! Don’t do drugs!!
    You are just trying to stir up crap up!
    Please don’t bother me unless you have something valid to say.

    Bavarian Missile,
    Thats one funny rant, too bad I have no idea what you are going on about, and won’t bother re-reading it!! Like I said find me some reliable facts about R&D figures, and don’t just refer to the stupid holden commercials!!! As i knew you did!!!
    P.S I don’t really care for toyotas, so who the f*** cares?!

    Also, are you slow?? where did I say not to be Proud?!
    I was referring to Falcadore calling the R&D centers in Australia of the 3 foreign owned companies the best !!

    PS, Kalamunda is one of the greatest Bogan/Hillbilly suburbs in Perth!! And talking about yourself in the matter you do really shows your true class!!!

  • Tomas79

    Wheelnut, who cares?? Where did i say “Toyota are so much better than Holden or Ford”???!!

  • Richo

    was just reading on news . com . au that toyota have lost $1.7 billion over the last 6 months due to sliding sales due to the economic downturn. Given that Toyota are generally regarded as the best run car company in the world and they are getting hammered by the economy at the moment, perhaps people might realise that a fair chunk of what is happening to GM and Ford at the moment is actually out of their control…

  • Wheelnut

    The fact that over the years Holden has had more concept cars [Utester Sandman SS-X TT-36 Efijy HRT/LE Maloo HRT427 Monaro Cabrio] is proof that they spend more on R&D than Ford and Toyota – Concept cars that were used not only to gauge public reaction and assist in the design of upcoming models – a lot of the design cues and features of the VE appeared first on the TT-36 Torana Concept.. but they also got GMs attention.

    I mean no other Australian designed and built car [that I can recall] has ever gone from concept to reality in such a quick time as the Commo-2-dore Monaro did.

    BTW you say that I criticise Toyta so much that I must secretly admire them and aspire to own one – well I can say exactly the same thing about you and Holden

    Grow Up Tomas79

  • Wheelnut

    Quote [Tomarse79]: Kalamunda is one of the greatest Bogan/Hillbilly suburbs in Perth!!

    I don’t think that there would be too many Bogans that would be able to afford an average sized family home in an area where the average is $600-800K and some cases close to $1m…. Not if all they can afford is a 10yo Commodore.

  • Wheelnut

    Quote [Tomas79]:What brand do I fantasy about? Just because I own a Toyota does not automatically make me Fan of Toyota!!

    Hes right – Tomas owns a Green 2008 Toyota D4D Automatic Prado.
    But a couple of weeks after he first appeared on this site he posted a comment where he said that he was actually a Ford fan he was just sick of all the unfounded/inaccurate Anti-Toyota comments on this site

    Even though the Anti-Toyta comments were in response to the unfonced/inaccurate Anti-Holden comments on this site

  • Tomas79

    Richo, Toyota might have made a 1.7 Billion dollar loss this quarter, but they will still make a profit this year, albeit smaller one then last year. Holden will make a loss this year, just like last year, and the year before!!

    Wheelnut says “But a couple of weeks after he first appeared on this site he posted a comment where he said that he was actually a Ford fan he was just sick of all the unfounded/inaccurate Anti-Toyota comments on this site”

    Wheelnut, things are so desperate you have to resort to lying again?! I never said I was a ford fan, it was Bavarian Missile you Idiot!! Who brought up that she spoke to somebody that knows me, and that he said that I was a ford fan!! So Don’t BS you tool!! Anyway Who cares , WTF do I have to do with this article?!

    Wheelnut says “BTW you say that I criticise Toyta so much that I must secretly admire them and aspire to own one”

    Somebody else said that you tool!! I Said you have a rather un-healthy fascination for Toyota, probably caused by envy or some mental disorder!! As many people have said before me, you brining it up every chance you get, no matter what topic is just psychotic!!

    As for Kalamunda, welcome to Perth!! That’s how much the prices have reason here buddy!! It’s still a bogan/hillybilly capital!!

  • Sam

    I thought everyone knew that image conscious wankers drove Pageros, not Prados.

  • RoFlmaTiC

    I think you will find that the current predictions of Toyota’s profits is about 2-3 billion for the year ending June 2009 (depending on which is forecasting).

    This has been cut from around 10 billion or so before the downturn. I think they might be making a loss in the october 08 – june 09 period but they did well in the first quarter of this financial year, so they will be in the black overall.

  • Wheelnut

    Tomas79 Says

    Wheelnut says “BTW you say that I criticise Toyta so much that I must secretly admire them and aspire to own one”

    Somebody else said that you tool!! I Said you have a rather un-healthy fascination for Toyota, probably caused by envy or some mental disorder!! As many people have said before me, you bring it up every chance you get, no matter what topic is just psychotic!!

    Ok I admit it wasn’t you; it wa some other diluded Toyota lover with a holier than thou attitude. However you continually lay the boot in to Holden at any oportunity you get no matter what the topic as well. As they say
    “Qui Pro Quo”

  • http://australiancaradvice McKay

    RoFlmaTic : your statistics are pretty much right on the ball although Toyota’s actual reporting period is from March 01 – Feburary 29 each year.

    For the current period, they are expected to return a profit albeit considerably less then originally forecasted which was about 12 billion. That in itself is down on thier last reported profit of $16.97 billion.

    Toyota has been profitable every year sense 1999 and the past 7 consecative years have reported between $16.5 – $19.0 billion which is a massive feat in itself.

    However, it appears leaner forecasts are predicted until the global economy improves but eitherway, they remain strong and cashed-up to ride the down turn which is alot i can say about others.

  • Wheelnut

    So let me get this straight Tomas – unless you are 29-30 years old; were born in Europe but now Live in WA; work as an “engineer” and drive a Green 2008 Toyota D4D Automatic Prado…. You are a Bogan? is that it?

    That’s the way it appears going by tour attitude as well as your comments etc.

  • http://australiancaradvice McKay

    What does “Qui Pro Quo” mean ?????

  • Wheelnut

    Anyone who buys a 4×4 just for the image it conveys is a Image Conscious wnaker.. particularly if they have no intention of taking it off road [the purpose for which it was built] because its “trendy”

  • http://australiancaradvice McKay

    Diesel Prado’s are one of the best 4×4′s one can buy alongside the LC 70 & 200 series, LX570 and Nissan Patrols & Navara’s.

    What worthwhile 4×4 does Holden or Ford sell ?????

  • http://australiancaradvice McKay

    Why buy a 6.0 V8 Holden Ute to haul 2 people !!!!!!

  • Tomas79

    Wheelnut Says:

    Anyone who buys a 4×4 just for the image it conveys is a Image Conscious wnaker.. particularly if they have no intention of taking it off road [the purpose for which it was built] because its “trendy”…”

    Sure, so since softroaders are not really off road oriented, anyone in a territory, Escape, captiva, x-5, xc-70 is an immediate flashwanker?!!

  • Duck

    Tomas79, you have got a slight point. I know what you mean. Most people buy soft roaders such as the VW Tiguan, Holden Captiva, Ford Escape, Mitsubishi Outlander, Honda CR-V mainly for just a practical car. For carrying kids or towing a (slightly) bigger boat or caravan than you would with a family sedan. For generally around the same price as your average family sedan. But people that buy a Suzuki Vitara/Grand Vitara or Nissan X-Trail would still use it as a car to do small offroading not rough off-roading but they are still a soft roader

    Though……….people that buy big or full time 4×4′s such as a Nissan Patrol, Toyota Landcruiser or even 4×4 utes such as the Toyota Hilux, Mitsubishi Triton, Nissan Navara and Holden Colorado etc. The people that buy those large 4×4′s and don’t use them for what there meant to be used for are called “Image Conscious Wankers” like Wheelnut said, but I just call them “d*ckheads” or just plain “idiots” in a polite way. If there not going to use there big 4×4 for going off road, going the beach, carrying a large caravan or boat they are complete wankers Tomas79! It’s just pointless and a waste of money!

    Hey I hate the people that buy big 4×4′s and live in the city and drive around in their big Patrol or 200series Landcruiser or even worse a HUMMER H3!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. I mean isn’t that stupid!? That’s not what it’s designed for or made to do? Is it!? How hard would it be to park between cars in the car park all the time in the city? Very hard I believe. You’d be scraping and wrecking a car every time you leave home. Or those pay parking underground. The road is to small and the height to get under is too small once again. It’s different if you are travelling through the city or visiting though, but people actually live in the big city and drive their BIG 4×4 is stupid. I think in England when ever you pass through a city you have to pay a fee or ticket when you are in a large 4×4. Car retilers in the city should some how not sell 4×4 to people that have no intention to use the 4×4 for it’s proper use.

    Like yesterday, their was this d*ck that had like 22″ Chromies on his old Jeep Cheoreke!!!!!!!!!!! Plain siily! Now that’s a……….“Image Conscious Wankers”

    So if you have a full time or large 4×4 use it what it’s designed for and don’t use to pick up your shopping from the mall in the city centre!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Duck

    McKay Says:
    December 15th, 2008 at 10:00 am “What worthwhile 4×4 does Holden or Ford sell ?????”

    Is it me or you sound like a twit!!?!?!?!!! Anybody agree?

    Arrrrrrr……………. Holden sells the Colorado, does it not?

    And arrrrr………….. Ford sells the Ranger, does it not too?

    Aren’t they both 4×4′s? I bloody oth think so!
    Sure it’s a 4×4 ute, but it is still a 4×4!

    Oh and Merry Christmas! ;)

  • Bavarian Missile ( . ) ( . )

    As for me living in a bogan suburb,anyone on this site that know or lives in Perth knows your speaking crap.Seems you are still yet to understand the meaning of a bogan ! If its a suburb where the majority of the population are retired drive European cars and send kids to private schools then yes ,looks like I live in a bogan suburb!

    Quote “As for Kalamunda, welcome to Perth!! That’s how much the prices have reason here buddy!!

    So as I have my house on the market currently for over $950,000 I guess I shouldn’t have too much problem selling it seeing that’s what the median house price in a bogan suburb in Perth,……….ha ha ha

    Stop embarrassing yourself with stupid comments with no fact just your opinion.

    For the second time if Holden and Ford go Toyota wont pick up the “slack” you would just like to see it !

    As I said last night what type of person would like to see Holden and Ford go to the wall ,those that obviously have no true support for their country and prefer to be dictated by the world largest car company that will move its operation back to Japan anyway!

    What a horrible thought ,no rear wheel drive cars ! Unless you can afford something European! No affordable performance cars {by that I mean rear wheel drive,not torque steering TRDs} ,no more utes on building sites,what the hell are the police going to drive ? Aurions? No more Greeks in Falcon taxis,my god can you picture the future landscape in Australia ?

  • Tomas79

    Bavarian Missile, You’re talking utter crap, based on incorrect assumptions, and like i said, talking about yourself the way you do really shows your class!! Take your anti-depresent meds, and let the rest of us talk about cars!! I’m really not interested discussing you, wheelnut or myself on this site!! Go to Facebook or whatever!

    Duck i fully agree with you!! But my point is there is much more flashwanking SUVs that are regarded as image symbols, and truly arent intended to go off road, yet Wheelnut picks a Prado to specifically insult me and others on this site who drive a Prado.

    And yes, I regularly take my 4×4 offroad on outings with my mates, or 4wd forum outings!! And it’s moded for purpose not looks!!

  • Tomas79

    Duck, McKay was referring to 4wd Wagons.
    Ford and Holden didn’t have serious(if you can call them that) Wagons since Ford Explorer, and Holden suburbans, and what failures they were?!

  • Duck

    ^^^^^^^^^^^And you had the Ford Maverick (essentially a Nissan Patrol) and the Holden Jackaroo (essentially a Isuzu Trooper).

  • Duck

    Grammar mistake: ‘a Isuzu Trooper’. It sould be ‘an Isuzu Trooper’

    Opps! :)

  • Tomas79

    Bavarian Missile ( . ) ( . ) Says: “As I said last night what type of person would like to see Holden and Ford go to the wall ,those that obviously have no true support for their country”

    I’m not american!! And i didn’t say i wanna see them go to the wall, it’s just that life will go on!!

    Bavarian Missile ( . ) ( . ) Says: “prefer to be dictated by the world largest car company that will move its operation back to Japan anyway!”

    Toyota isn’t GM, they don’t do as stupid decisions as like them!! And who cares whether Japanese instead of Americans Dictate to us!! Stop being such a hillbillie racist!!

    As well they might Toyota like GM, and Ford might take their operations somewhere cheaper, i doubt they would take their operations back to Japan where the labor cost is greater!!

  • Bavarian Missile ( . ) ( . )

    Tomas said “Bavarian Missile, You’re talking utter crap, based on incorrect assumptions, and like i said, talking about yourself the way you do really shows your class!! Take your anti-depresent meds, and let the rest of us talk about cars!! I’m really not interested discussing you, wheelnut or myself on this site!! Go to Facebook or whatever!

    hahaha seems I hit a nerve !Looks like I mad my point,all you do is state your correct,so where are your facts………..if you remember you stated the *sit on my lawn with a tinne * Sorry I thought I was an am entitled to respond,you turned it into a bogan thing then.

    wow 4X4 forums,I hope your more popular over there than you are here,

    So there are two sets of rules are there Tomas one for you and another for everyone else.You have the right to call people that drive Holdens and Fords BOGANS but we’re not to mention what we think of soft off roaders and people that drive Prados,if you take it as personal insult when we mention Prado drivers then thats your problems not ours.

    When will you start stating facts not opinions………..

  • Tomas79

    Duck, Yep, but that was all years ago!!
    I for one, welcome Isuzu re-entering the Australian market and trading on their own, they have a very good rep in the 4wd community!!

  • Tomas79

    Bavarian Missile ( . ) ( . ) Says: “hahaha seems I hit a nerve !Looks like I mad my point”

    No, you didn’t, just look at how long all your responses are, and how much of it is related to cars!! majority is just crazy re trick nobody cares about!!

  • Tomas79

    BM, hope your monitor wasn’t damaged too much by your 440ml cans of Woodstock Bourbon & Cola (Cheap and Nasty)you through at them, in one of your many angry fits!! ;-)

  • Bavarian Missile ( . ) ( . )

    Three insults in three comments ,keep it going Tomas! Your reported,says a lot about a person when they have to insult some one to make them feel better about themselves,or is that simply you cant argue without insulting , have an inferiority complex’s ?

    Back pedal as much as you like Tomas about you not saying you don’t want to see them going to the wall but you have,seems your comments are gradually being deleted anyway .

    Lets just read how much you’ll miss Holden and Ford cause you love them soooooooooo much

    Quote

    “Tomas79 Says:
    July 26th, 2008 at 5:51 PM

    AC COBRA Says:
    July 26th, 2008 at 4:58 PM

    “Proud to be Aussie because we can manufacture first class car’s”

    You are joking right?? !! Who in Europe associates Australians with making great cars???”"

    Should I continue cause there’s pages of well wishes from you to Ford and Holden on this site over the last months you have been on here!

    You fight like a girl Tomas !

  • Tomas79

    Bavarian Missile, your too not too bright, and a hypocrite too!! Obviously you are grasping at straws, as the qoute you presented doesn’t show me wanting the Australian industry to go to the wall!!

  • Bavarian Missile ( . ) ( . )

    If you read what I said Tomas then maybe you will understand it a bit better…….it show your love for the brand………..I can keep looking for previous comments where you have said you will be glad to see them go! Whos the bright one…….

    “”"”"quote “Lets just read how much you’ll miss Holden and Ford cause you love them soooooooooo much “”"”"

    “Tomas79 Says:
    July 26th, 2008 at 5:51 PM

    AC COBRA Says:
    July 26th, 2008 at 4:58 PM

    “Proud to be Aussie because we can manufacture first class car’s”

    You are joking right?? !! Who in Europe associates Australians with making great cars???””

  • Tomas79

    Sorry CarAdvice for having to go constantly of topic!

    Bavarian Missile, you are seriously thick?!! That quote talks about me saying they are not first class, e.g Mercedes Benz Level… And I never said I loved Ford or Holden?!! So WTF you are on about?!!

    Actually please don’t tell me, don’t communicate with me further as I’m not interested in your Ford vs Holden vs Toyota rhetoric…

  • nix

    LOL

  • Bavarian Missile ( . ) ( . )

    hahaha ,Tomas you cant control me………..whats up ?

    The comment doesnt mention Mercs you mention you mention Aussies cant make good cars,cant admit we’re wrong and a control freak,gee you sound like my ex-husband !

    So you dont love Holden s or Fords ,you think we make crap cars but you dont want to see them go to the wall ! Why not ?

    Quote so what the hell did you mean by this

    “Don’t get me wrong, I’m pro developing car R&D industry in Australia, but lets remove those nationalistic pride goggles and lets see what we really have here at the moment..”"

    As I said I can continue to drag back as many of your previous statements as you wish to prove your back peddling!

  • http://australiancaradvice McKay

    Holden Colorado / Rodeo, Ford Ranger / Mazda BT50.

    Were i come from, 4×4′s like these don’t come anymore ordinary.

  • Tomas79

    Bavarian Missile, are you seriously stupid or something?!
    Don’t you see that none of the quotes you have posted disprove anything i have said?!! Yes, the Australian industry isn’t the best, and doesn’t produce the first class car!! But that doesn’t mean i want the Australian industry to disappear!! If you don’t understand this, you must be extremely thick, or grasping at straws and psychotic to even bring it p!!

  • http://australiancaradvice McKay

    What would this country be like if we had no European and Japanese car companies.

    We will have no decent small cars, no decent medium cars, no quality large cars, no decent SUV’s, no decent 4×4′s, no reliable performance cars and certainly no true luxury cars.

    God, imagine what that would be like .. arrrr

  • Wheelnut

    The followin gare quotes from Tomas

    December 15th 2008 @ 12.11: Bavarian Missile, You’re talking utter crap, based on incorrect assumptions

    December 15th 2008 @ 12.35: Bavarian Missile look at how long all your responses are, and how much of it is related to cars!! majority is just crazy rhetoric nobody cares about!!

    December 15th 2008 @ 12.58: Bavarian Missile, you’re not too bright, and a hypocrite too!!

    Poor old Tomas. It appears that he’s gotten so confused that he’s not sure who he is anymore…. he keeps saying Bavarian Missile; when he obviously means Tomas79 – you got to feel sorry for him talking about himself in the 3rd person like that.

  • Wheelnut

    McKay – the Latin term Qui Pro Quo basically means you do something for me and I’ll do something for you in return

    If Tomas stops bagging Holden at every given opportunity I will stop bagging Toyota at every given opportunity.

    It may appear to have a deep dislike for Toyotas however going by Tomas’ comments and the fact he consistently resorts to personal insults and attacks [more than anyone else on this site] indicates that his dislike for Holden is just as deep if not deeper

    Sure i am a Holden fan but I am willing to admit that there are a number of cars in the Holden range which aren’t as good as their direct rivals

    Mind you as Tomas as shown – some people can be so stubborn and either unable to comprehend/understand what people are saying or unwilling to accept other peoples opinions etc regardless of how logical your arguement is or how much factual evidence/proof you use

    You could have 100,000 people or 100s of reports saying that X is better than Y.

    but if it goes against their pre-conceived ideal of what the situation is really like and what’s really going on it could mean that they are wrong [heaven forbid] and therefore they will choose to ignore it

    If they don’t/didn’t know about it; read about it; or hear about it to them it didn’t; can’t or won’t happen

  • Tomas79

    Wheelnut, you like going around in circles?! Please unless you bring something valid to the table don’t bother me!

    Wheelnut Says: “Mind you as Tomas as shown – some people can be so stubborn and either unable to comprehend/understand what people are saying or unwilling to accept other peoples opinions etc regardless of how logical your arguement is or how much factual evidence/proof you use”

    Yes, thank you… Too bad Bavarian Missile got so emotional in the process of me showing it!! She better learn when to back off, and to read other peoples comments next time!!

  • Tomas79

    Caradvice isn’t it time to consider a a dingo like ban on Bavarian Missile, and Wheelnut??
    As you can see spam this website going on about trivial off topic matters?!

  • http://australiancaradvice McKay

    Wheelnut : i guess Thomas79 has alot more truthful remarks to bag Holden or Ford at present then vice-versa so either way, it is lose-lose for you.

  • Bavarian Missile ( . ) ( . )

    Mckay,go back to the Toyota blog so you can get your a r s e kicked over there,Tomas is just another Dingo that has no facts just opinions,a little like you!

    Oh and wasn’t Dingo your mate when he was around Tomas,another Toyota extremist that doesn’t have a bad word against them.

    Hahaha Tomas I never got emotional I laughing at every one of your silly opinions and even your insults ! Just like a woman to wan the last word!hahahahaha

    I don’t take this site seriously ,its a bit of fun,why don’t you learn to enjoy it ! When ever you I see you insulting me I know I must be getting to you with the facts and the only way you can back out of it is with insults! *she giggles and shakes head !*

    Bottom line is you boys dont like Ford or Holden and will be glad to see the back of them,thats just un-Australian.

    Mckay why will have to imagine what this great country of OURS would be like with out Jap cars and Euro stuff?

    Good to see you have a friend Tomas,was getting lonely for you without Dingo! Aint love grand !

  • Bavarian Missile ( . ) ( . )

    God I should have read that before I posted it……………I think Ive typed too many letters this arvo! Time for a break!

  • Simon

    Would be nice if people could stick to topic and forego personal attacks. There is room for many opinions provided they have some relevance and aren’t aimed at belittling others.
    I disagree with many posters here but can understand there is nothing to be gained by butting heads apart from sore heads. Its a car forum, let’s try to remember that!

  • Tomas79

    So true Simon, like i said caradvice should put another Ban in place!!
    And unlike others, I’m here to discuss cars, and peoples opinions on cars and not people!!!
    Bavarian Missile, please keep holden vs ford vs toyota mentality in your home…
    To me the world is filled with many more brands then just these 3, most of which you and wheelnut never even heard of!!

  • Wheelnut

    Simon Says – December 15th, 2008 at 6:46 pm
    Would be nice if people could stick to topic and forego personal attacks. There is room for many opinions provided they have some relevance and aren’t aimed at belittling others.

    Tomas79 Says – So true Simon,

    Thats hilarious; coming from the “person” who started the personal attacks and insults to begin with

    I mean have you read what youve written over the past couple of days Tomas?

    Those who live in Glasshouses shouldn’t throw stones

  • Tomas79

    Wheelnut, Yes, i started of by commenting what other people have said on this site!! And then Bavarian Missile laid in with her personal attacks, and telling us how classy she is?! And then you followed!!

  • Wheelnut

    Tomas79 – What I mean by “Those who live in Glasshouses shouldn’t throw stones” is that You’re just as guilty as BM and I are

    You haven’t mentioned anythingto do with cars or the article since yesterfday afternoon .. ts all been insults

    BM and I merely responding to your comments but in a far more civilised manner

    And if you took my comment about 4x4owners being Image Conscious Wankers personally.. get over yourself – I didn’t specifically mention you or your Green 2008 D4D Prado now did I?

  • James

    Perhaps you guys would like to exchange numbers, or find a room?

  • Bret

    Why don’t you three get a room or something?
    Your all wrong, AND all right. You just don’t agree, and never will.

    What was this blog even about……..?

  • Bret

    James – SNAP

  • Bavarian Missile ( . ) ( . )

    As I said Tomas you take no responsibility for your actions you blame others ,problem is Tomas your bad comments have been deleted now but you started the personal attacks so be a man for once grow some balls and admit it! Your comment too me about “”cracking open a tinnie on a couch on the lawn” started it .If you didnt insult people then you wouldn’t get attacked,simple as that!

  • Wheelnut

    Tomas79 – So you finally admit that it was your fault that we’ve ended up completely of topic…. see it wasn’t that hard now was it?

    Although thats much more than what D—O could/would do

    Are you also MAN enough to admit that you were the first to resort to personal attacks? because telling people where you live; what kind of lifestyle you have or what alcoholic beverage you drink etc isn’t a personal attack

  • Tomas79

    Bavarian Missile,
    Jees, I guess I’m a terrible person for saying that you “crack open a tinnie”?!!

    Why did i mention it? Because you were bothering me with your stupid Ford,Holden vs Toyota crap, that i told you on many times not to bother me with!!

    Anyway, Please from now on, don’t read my comments and don’t bother me further!!

  • Tomas79

    Wheelnut don’t bother me!!

  • Bavarian Missile ( . ) ( . )

    Heres a thought Tomas dont enter the Holden and Ford conversations and then we wouldn’t have to kick your arse after you insult us! Cause mate you wont control me !

  • Brian

    Tomarse; dont bother the rest of us!!

  • Wheelnut

    Okay Tomas79 I won’t bother you anymore… I guess you’ve got enough “personal” problems of your own…

    Learning how to understand what is being said for one as well as learning to admit when you are wrong.

    It won’t happen over night but it will happen… you’ll get there

  • Tomas79

    There you go off topic personal insults!!
    By the way, when did you ever kick my ass at anything??!!

  • Tomas79

    Caradvice, the above posts demonstrate exactly why they should be banned!!

  • Geni

    Wheelnut, BM, leave it. If you rile Tomas up any further he’ll injure himself.

    On topic, it seems that old mate Bush will tide the manufacturers, particularly GM and Chrysler over just long enough for Obama to have to deal with the situation. Personally I predict that by next Christmas we’ll have the ‘fairly large two’, with Chrysler either obliterated or sold into lots of little bits. It seems bizarre that Cerberus would pay so much money to buy Chrysler, and then not let them tap the mountains of cash reserves that Cerberus have to turn the sinking ship around. Chrysler has already stopped development on many new models, in the car industry thats suicide. When your cars don’t sell because they’re outdated and inferior, not developing new models to save money isn’t going to help you.

  • Brian

    Exactly! CA please ban the Di_go re-incarnation Tomas79.

  • http://australiancaradvice McKay

    Bavarian : what is equally un-Australian is critism aimed at local Toyota operations but i suppose you had given little thought towards that while playing the heart-strings.

    Who or what is Dingo apart from being a native Australian wild dog ????????

  • http://australiancaradvice McKay

    Geni : many American citizens believe the BIG 3 will emerge as the Medium 2 and considering the intense restructuring programmes required including sales or shutting shop of numerous subsidaries, it appears the foresight is on the money .. literally

  • Golfschwein

    Oh, hi Dingo. Your comments have been tracked since early this morning, under a variety of nicknames as usual. Should prove interesting reading for action to be taken against you under the Commonwealth Broadcasting Services Amendment Act 1999.

    You can stop any time. The boys have got enough.

  • The Realist

    Some people just don’t know when they should give up…

    Falcodore Says:
    December 14th, 2008 at 5:56 pm
    “I mean how premium can they be when the top-line Lexus uses the exact same DSC system as a base model camry?”

    Just like the W427 uses most of its parts from bottom feeder commies? Want me to list specifics?

    Bavarian Missile ( . ) ( . ) Says:
    December 14th, 2008 at 7:26 pm
    “thats thousands of jobs lost everywhere in Australia. Good to see in these hard financial times people just want to see the worst happen to those they really have no idea of how much they contribute to OUR great country ,but hey be un-Australian.”

    You sound just like Wheelnut – when will the Aussie’s ever be profitable? Five years? Ten years? How many more billions of tax payer dollars is needed?

    Wheelnut Says:
    December 14th, 2008 at 7:50 pm
    “So regardless of where your allegiances lie; All Australains should be proud of how well the locals have done and are doing..a s they are all receivng international recognition to a varying degree”

    That’s because of handouts mate. Could they do it on their own two feet like numerous other SME’s around the country who succeed with no tax payer assistance and reliance on fleet sales??

    Falcodore Says:
    December 14th, 2008 at 10:07 pm
    “Toyota will not pick up Ford and Holdens slack, at least not to the extent you think because there are ppl out there who actually ENJOY driving their cars. Something Toyota and their fanatics just dont seem to compehend.”

    Judging from sales those people are in the minority mate.

    Andrew M Says:
    December 14th, 2008 at 10:18 pm
    “I also read that the Ford guys that worked on the FG received 2 top notch engineering awards for their work. ill have to dig up that article……..”

    Please do – I’d love to see how that stacks up to pioneering work in medicine and nanotechnology at some of our universities. Don’t make yourself look like a half-wit by talking about engineering awards for cars in Australia.

    “You arent fooling anyone, you are here to stir rubbish for your kicks only. What a sad life it must be”

    Like yours? I bet you drive a commie or falcon and think you’re something special. You need to speak to your lion badge loving friends on here about stirring rubbish – I can quote you if you like.

    Bavarian Missile ( . ) ( . ) Says:
    December 14th, 2008 at 10:30 pm
    WTF ????????? So we shouldn’t be proud of what this country has achieved already ?We may not have the population from where you originally came from Tomas but WE true Australians are proud of what this great Country has developed for the small population it has,not proud of it then I’m sure there is a plane back to where ever you came from! Im even proud of the fact that we manufacture boring Camrys,means we are capable of doing so to the standards Toyota desire!”

    Cue the violins.

    I’d be more proud if our 100% American owned Ford Oz and GMH could run a business without resorting to tax payer handouts. Love all the brains on this forum who argue with facts.

    Oh yeah, and if they could build a decent 4WD for our country – but that’s asking too much isn’t it?? We need to rely on the Japanese for that.

    If I presented the current GMH or Ford Oz business model to my peers at the AGSM I’d be laughed out of the university!!

    Wheelnut Says:
    December 14th, 2008 at 10:47 pm
    “That on its own indicates how much Holden meansd to GM compared to what Toyota Oz means to Japan doesn’t it”

    And look where the brains trust of GM is at the moment! They’re great business people aren’t they!

    Bavarian Missile ( . ) ( . ) Says:
    December 15th, 2008 at 11:53 am
    “As I said last night what type of person would like to see Holden and Ford go to the wall ,those that obviously have no true support for their country and prefer to be dictated by the world largest car company that will move its operation back to Japan anyway!”

    Stop waffling on with your mock patriotism. I, like many Aussies, would prefer to see taxes spent on other areas of society, not on companies who run completely unprofitable business models. Holden and Ford can go to the wall – it’s happened before and the country was fine.

    Bavarian Missile ( . ) ( . ) Says:
    December 15th, 2008 at 12:29 pm
    “When will you start stating facts not opinions………..”

    And when will you and the other intellectuals on the board do the same? Want me to pull out the numbers on government assistance to the Aussie car makers?

    Wheelnut Says:
    December 15th, 2008 at 4:04 pm
    “If Tomas stops bagging Holden at every given opportunity I will stop bagging Toyota at every given opportunity.”

    Are you six years old mate?! Grow up! This is the fifth or sixth childish comment you’ve stated on this blog.

    Bavarian Missile ( . ) ( . ) Says:
    December 15th, 2008 at 6:24 pm
    “Hahaha Tomas I never got emotional I laughing at every one of your silly opinions and even your insults ! Just like a woman to wan the last word!hahahahaha”

    Damn, you’re just as immature as Wheelnut.

    “Bottom line is you boys dont like Ford or Holden and will be glad to see the back of them,thats just un-Australian.”

    No it’s not – it’s un Australian to keep asking for handouts like beggars, that’s what Holden and Ford are good at right?

    Wheelnut Says:
    December 15th, 2008 at 7:05 pm
    “I mean have you read what youve written over the past couple of days Tomas?”

    Have you? Did your mother let you onto the PC for a few days or something??

  • Bret

    Realist,
    What a load….
    Why is it you conveniently leave Toyota our of all of your comments re Handouts??
    Who exactly has taken the biggest slice of the handout pie so far? Toyota.
    Who has addmitted that handouts are neccessary to build a hybrid (designed elsewhere) in Aus? Toyota.
    Who will be the next company to pull out of manufacturing in Aus? Toyota.

    Look I agree that some people have “gone off” on this (and other) posts, but you have only critisied one side. And the other side was just as bad (or worse).

    You have just proven that you are just as bad as them. Don’t be a tool.

  • http://caradvice.com.au jaymen

    the economy bad anyway, whatever.