Car Advice

2008 Holden Epica First Steer

By Anthony Crawford |

2008 Holden Epica – First Steer

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“From the rear, it looks positively Saab-ish. Holden has got its act together with this revised Epica, the 2.0 litre turbo diesel being an especially sweet drive”

- Anthony Crawford

Just over a year ago, General Motors Holden launched the Epica nameplate as a mid-size family sedan providing a value for money option in a growing category.

But the punters didn’t seem to warm to it, nor did many of Australia’s motoring writers. Subsequent sales of the car were anything but spectacular.

It’s true the 2007 Epica was not an attractive car. Not at all. The same cannot be said for the revised 2008 model car. From the rear, punters might even think it’s a new Saab 9-5, especially in Pearl White Metallic and Granada Black Metallic (two of seven exterior colours on offer). While I’m still not sold on the front styling, it’s more than a subtle improvement on the 2007 car.

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After a decent steer in the revised car my first impressions are positive. As long as the marketing girls and boys at Fisherman’s Bend spend a few dollars on getting the name out there (and make no mistake, they are spending big) this car, especially the diesel, should find more than a few buyers here in Australia.

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Nobody likes high fuel prices. They can have a catastrophic affect on your day-to-day quality of life. Essentially, you end up with less money in your pocket, and that’s never a good thing.

Filling up a large car petrol powered car or SUV these days, can be scary. With a 100-litre capacity tank, you will spend close to $7000 per year on fuel alone. That’s for those lucky enough to need only one car.

The mid size car segment will attract buyers from two markets, Holden says. Those wanting more room than in a small car, and those looking to save more than a few bucks, by coming down from a large car. Nothing wrong with that logic I say.

But midsize cars generally use a lot more fuel than your average small car, usually because of additional power and weight.

That’s where the modern day common rail turbo diesel comes to the rescue. They offer considerably more ‘go’ from low down in the rev range and allows you to travel a greater distance on one tank of fuel. This is especially true of vehicles in the mid to large size segments.

While Holden will continue to offer a refined in-line six-cylinder petrol engine, it’s all about the 2.0 litre common rail turbo diesel powered car. That is what will make this car a success story.

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It’s both an efficient and smooth revving engine, which develops 110kW at 4000rpm and a strong 320Nm of torque at 2000rpm. From the relatively short time behind the wheel of the car I was pleasantly surprised just how smooth and quiet the car was.

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At 110km/h on a Melbourne highway, the engine was ticking over at around 1600 rpm, or barely working. Mid range acceleration is constant and you can feel the torque even in sixth gear.

Off the mark acceleration won’t set the world on fire but employing a variable geometry turbocharger, you could never call it slow either. The steering set up is also nicely weighted, even at dead centre, so you feel well connected to the road.

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What I keep coming back to with the Epica is how refined the power delivery is. There’s very little engine vibration through the cabin, which makes this car, a particularly pleasant drive.

It’s also a lot quieter than many of the 2.0-litre diesel passenger cars I have driven this year. This is a well-sorted engine in a well-sorted chassis.

Not only that. Standard equipment across the range is a six-speed automatic transmission with what Holden calls Active Select, allowing for sequential style shifts, up and down the ratios. Holden engineers are quoting a 14 percent improvement in fuel economy at a constant cruise control style speed.

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Twice, I looked at the fuel consumption readout while travelling at 110km/h and was more than surprised to see 6L/100km for more than a few minutes. Testament to diesel power!

I’ll also have to praise the general ergonomics inside the Epica. Specifically, the firm but supportive seats in the top spec CDXi we were driving, were equally as comfortable as those in some of the more expensive European car brands. Very well bolstered all round, without being too narrow for the larger folk.

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Instrumentation and switchgear is intuitive and easy to master. It’s also well laid out and attractive. There is a lot of plastic on the centre stack but just enough metal look accents throughout the interior, to make things interesting rather than dull.

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Medium size cars are becoming larger. They must be. There’s an awful lot of cabin space inside the Epica, including that area between driver and front passenger. It almost feels like a large car. There’s also plenty of room for the rear passengers too and the boot is huge, with just on 480 litres of load space. Good size aperture too with the boot lid held open by gas struts.

Creature comforts across the range include: Steering wheel mounted audio and cruise controls, Auto on headlights, MP3 connectivity with a 6-speaker audio system with single CD in the CDX trim and an 8-speaker unit in the CDXi along with the usual array of electric windows and mirrors.

Epica has upped the ante in the safety department in this segment, with six airbags (including the all important curtain airbags) and Electronic Stability Control (ESC).

Rear Park Assist, which must be considered a mandatory safety feature these days, is fitted (audible version only) as standard on the CDXi spec cars only.

From 29,990 for the 2.0-litre diesel, with six speed auto, six airbags, Electronic Stability Control, a host of creature comforts, tonnes of space and much improved European-like styling, the Epica CDX diesel is the value for money pick.

That said, for just $2000 more, you could upgrade to the CDXi 2.0 diesel and pick up 17-inch alloys (rather than 16-inch alloys), Rear Park Assist and the 8-speaker 6 CD changer, which also represents good buying.

2008 Epica range Recommended Retail Pricing

• Epica CDX 2.5-litre petrol (6 speed auto) from $27,990
• Epica CDX 2.0-litre diesel (6 speed auto) from $29,990
• Epica CDXi 2.5-litre petrol (6 speed auto) from $30,990
• Epica CDXi 2.0-litre diesel (6 speed auto) from 32, 990
• Epica CDXi Optional leather pack $2000


 
  • Genie

    Kinda sounds like a marketing blurb from Holden, you don’t mention once whats its like to drive. If you cut the review down to its core parts, its “cheap, economic, lots of features”. Will we get more of an idea what the cars like with the full review?

  • http://. Naughtyius Maxiumus

    Major improvement and well done Holden! A nice looker now! Inside is real well laid out and smart as!

  • http://www.caradvice.com.au Anthony

    Genie, I can only assume you have only glanced at this first steer. I talk about how the car drives quite a lot, in fact.

    I was only in the car a couple of hours so yes, Car Advice will most certainly be road testing the car over a week as soon as possible.

    Drive safe

  • realcars

    Agree with your comments NM.

    The diesel sounds like a very good buy.

    One of the best lookers in this class and price point.

    A diesel with all the fruit and euro style for the price of a base Camry.

  • Jobe

    I think Holden definitely paid for that story. If I wanted to read pro-Holden car reviews I would purchase Wheels Magazine. No one in their right mind would recommend the Epica over the Mazda6 or a Mondeo. I notice that the Mazda6 now starts @ 27,990. Surely that would have to be a much better buy.

  • Golfschwein

    It’s starting to look real. The 17″ wheels are a must over the dainty sixteeners.

  • Genie

    Cool, thanks anthony. I have only seen this first steer, but I have read reviews (I haven’t driven obviously, so I’m aware the reviews could be wrong) that painted the epica in not that great a light. So I was just wondering if the new 08 model is just a reskin and feature upgrade or whether the core driving dynamics have been tightened up at all.

  • Genie

    jobe, I think whilst the Mondeo is most likely the better car (the mondeo diesel is more economical too by ADR 81 standards, for what good that is), the mondeo diesel is $37990 whereas the epica is $30000, so thats a few difference, and shows the two cars are aimed at different spectrums of the market.

    Having said that, unless the review paints it as amazing, I’d make the mondeo, even if I had to miss a meal a day to save the extra $5k.

  • realcars

    How much is an equal spec Mazda6 or Mondeo Diesel?

    40k min?

    IMO the Mazda 6 styling has become pretty boring i.e not much diff to the old one.

    Mondeo only looks good in the hatch IMO.

    I await the full review although your initial review is encouraging.

  • http://www.caradvice.com.au Anthony

    Jobe, where do I compare the Epica diesel to a Mazda 6 4cyl petrol? Listen to Genie, he seems to have a much better idea of the market than your good self. I’ve driven the Mondeo and yes its a very nice package. That said, while the Mondeo has more grunt, its not as quiet or as smooth as the powertrain in the Epica.

  • Carl

    The face lift and diesel definitely make this car more attractive in this segment than a Camry……Shame there’s no wagon though! I’ll keep saving for the Mondeo wagon diesel.

    Holden/woo good try with this one, thanks but no thanks!

  • No Name

    Good review Anthony. Glad to see Holden taking the diesel thing seriously. I’m presuming that 2.0CDTI engine is the same as the European engine used in the Vectra/Astra/Saab etc etc. I regularly drive the same engined cars on a on a 800km trip and easily get 5.6′s cruising at 130k’s. Indeed the lst time the car (hired) had only done 1000km on the ODO and managed a creditably 5.7litres/100 not even broken in.

  • Jobe

    Anthony, it’s obviously easy to remain positive about a very ordinary car when your wallet is filled with Holden money.

  • AC COBRA

    When you peel the Holden badges off, it still represents a Korean made Daewoo and in the real world that would be enough not to buy the Epica, Ford Mondeo outclass this by a big margin, it didn’t win Australia’s Medium size car last year for nothing, Epica struggle to receive any major vote where it counts > diesel or no diesel.

  • Fred

    Bit of a “feel good” review, but allegations of piad off bias are just stupid – please go away children.

    Cheap and loaded with goodies – typical of what we have come to expect from the Koreans.

  • TP

    In terms of looks… I like the front but that rear strip at the back which wasnt there in the 2007 model…UGLY

  • Glen

    That dash definately doesn’t look like a quality part.

  • http://caradvice.com.au/15429/2008-holden-epica--first-steer/ Hans

    It’s a worthwhile update for the Epica although with current diesel to 91 RON ULP price disparity I don’t think you’ll be saving much money by choosing the diesel over the petrol model unless you do loads of highway driving. I need a wagon otherwise this would be on my new car radar.

  • http://www.thomasr.org/ Tom Reynolds

    Hey Anthony, I was on the drive with you and I think you are spot on.

    One of the engineers asked what I thought and I summed it up thus: \”Inoffensive- and I don\’t mean that as a criticism…\”

    With the Captiva diesel selling at 50+% overall, I think the Epica will manage the same.

    Though at $32k, that\’s more than what I am about to pay for a second hand ML270 diesel…

    Cheers
    Tom

  • http://. Naughtyius Maxiumus

    Gotta agree with TP with rear strip…..but it grows heaps and looks fine when gels with rest of car. Gotta say AC Cobra…..your comments are tad old as even Ford have done the Korean trick (but that was ok…..hmmmm)! Holden has hot nail on head with this car and are to be congratulated!

  • Tom

    Starting to look like an Insignia.

  • Chippy

    This review is marketing. A mid-life refresh and the dog of the pack has now become impressive? The results are inconsistent with every review on the EPIC’rap there is.

  • Richo

    well it looks like holden have done a good job here. Here is someone who has actually driven the car saying “hey this isn’t a bad deal here” and yet the perpetual holden haters that appear to litter this site are still trotting out the predictable and tired “its a daewoo, cheap crap low quality blah blah” despite the fact the article clearly says its a reasonable thing.

    Oh well, i guess caradvice must have been paid, thats why they give such favourable reviews to ford, holden’s cheif enemy.. yep definetly paid. You blokes are just one eyed badge babies, simple as that

  • Richo

    Chippy – actually its not mate, wheels rated the epica better then the toyota camry in a comparison. It’s only your pre-conceived perceptions making you think that.

  • Richo

    also those trying to (unfairly) compare it to the mondeo and mazda 6, keep in mind that the latest 6 currently doesn’t have a diesel, and the diesel mondeo is nearly 38k, not 30k. Perspective fellahs!

  • Ra

    Hey look they re-made the VL commodore with suburu headlights.

    More fuel for the fire girls :)

  • Eward

    Come on Athony, you have got to stop kiding yourself, if you are trying to tell us that a facelift to this car has made it a Saab, you must be a bigger fool than I thought. You keep saying Saab, mate any Saab own and Saab themselves will hate you for talking about this buck of SH.. as being a Saab, just because you think it looks like a Saab.. it does not make it a Saab..It’s like going to Asia and buy rip-of gear, it’s not the real thing.
    You should be driving this thing and telling us if it drives and perform like a saab.
    I own a one year old Epica and I have to tell you that this is the biggest mistake that I have made, if you only do Highway driving you’ll be ok, but try and drive it around town, shocking. fit and fininsh is very poor, oh sorry you don’t look at these things…I bet you when Wheels, Motor, News ltd and Fairfax drive this thing, they won’t write it up as being a good thing or that it looks good in some colours (white and black as you did).
    This only shows that you are on the payroll, nobody in the right mind would say that this is a good car.

  • Riker

    So what is so special here with the revised 2008 model…….A new diesel engine, a few cosmetic changes & maybe an extra airbag here or there & stability controlas standard. Congrats on the Diesel engine but that is about it.

    Six airbags & stability control I would have thought should be the least we should now expect from such a car nowadays without needing to make a point of it. I haven’t seen it written anywhere it is now structurally safer or better put together or uses higher quality parts than the cheap stuff it still has now.

    Yep well done Holden, all you have done is STILL give us a second rate car compared to the one it replaced. Yep, it is cheap & has extra stuff put in it to try & make it more attractive. Exactly what we have come to expect from Korea & now HOLDEN, inferior product.

    As for Ford having gone down the Korean route…..Well it failed them & it is doing the same for Holden.

  • Golfschwein

    Ra, You MUST explain where you see a VL Commodore in this. Is it in the six-light window design? The metallic grey bumpers and rubbing strips? The little duck spoiler at the back? I’m often amused when people say, “oh it looks like a blah” but, fair crack o’ the whip, this takes the cake.

  • http://integra What The ?

    so someone said its better than a Camry\Aurion……….well it would have to be a total lame duck if it wasnt better than a Camry\Aurion !!!! Oh well . at least its better than something!!!!

  • http://. Naughtyius Maxiumus

    LMAO………….your living in a black hole if you think always that!

    Things change and this is testament to that! Holden’s exercise by getting Daweoo does not reap immediate dividends in respect to car design and manufacture! They have done exceptional well and this car will sell well if suspension fully Australian tuned mega properly!

  • Simonsez

    6 litres per 100 km’s at 110 kph is really nothing special;particularly for a diesel. My Vectra 3.2 indicates that it’s using the same amount at that speed on the flat . Surely high 4′s or low 5′s at least should be achievable.In any case, when diesel costs around 30 cpl more than petrol , it’s hard to see the attraction these days.

  • http://www.littlepixiegifts.com.au Gift-Ed

    The diesel seems to have addresses the major criticism leveled at the Epica, which was the lackluster engine. All reviewers have consistently said it is quiet and comfortable.

    Looks ok for the price. Not my choice, but I can see a case for fleet sales.

  • http://aca It’s Just a Daewoo Sold By Holden

    Australian New Car Buyer … pg 66

    quote

    ” Daewoo had a reputation for giving thier owners grief. This not going to change becuase there is a Holden badge on the tailgate ”

    unquote

    Couldn’t have said myself

  • Tom

    I’m not sure its necessarily a daewoo, just because it comes from their home manufacturer?

    Honda builds most of their cars in cheap, third world countries too remember.

    I like how the epica looks, im sure if it was an aussie built car it would sell well, but the daewoo tag it has been labeled with will stop that.

  • http://aca It’s Just A Daewoo Sold By Holden

    Tom – it is a Daewoo and nothing is going to change those fundamentals.

    What i find absolutely hilarious is that Daewoo was a running joke in the community and no-doubt Holden clowns heavily critised them as much as the next person but becuase Holden has become the modern day showroom for Daewoo’s … those same clowns actually have the nerve to try talk them up.

    What a joke, it’s so hilariuos it’s just killing me laughter

    IT’S A DAEWOO AND NOTHING WILL CHANGE THAT … PERIOD !!

    As for Honda, they biuld solid, high quality, ultra reliable / depenable cars just like Toyota, Mazda, Nissan, Subaru and so forth but Daewoo doesn’t … FACT !!

    You know what ‘Australian New Car Buyer’ said about the 2 star death trap Daewoo Barina … “they will not recommended it at any price”.

  • http://aca It’s A Daewoo Sold By Holden

    Realcars – with a Camry you get proven quality, reliability, dependability and durability and virtually guaranteed trouble-free motoring wereas with the Epica you don’t … PERIOD !!

    The Camry has proven it’s integrity as an ever-day, fuzz free general transport / family hack whereas the Epica is based on a platform that was renouned for giving thier owners grief and as ‘Australian New Car Buyer’ stated … just because there is a Holden badge on the tailgate doesn’t mean it will be any different.

    But then again … Holden is not renouned for quality, reliable transport either so they really are a match made in Korea.

  • http://aca It’s A Daewoo Sold By Holden

    Maxiumus – put a Ferrari suspension on the thing if you want but it’s not gonna change the fact that it is a Daewoo.

    Daewoo’s had a reputation for being awful, unreliable and troublesome set of wheels to maintain serviceable and i have absolute confidance the Epica will prove to be no differant.

    If you want proven, quality, reliable, dependable, durable and trouble-free transport … buy a Camry, Accord or Mazda6 instead becuase that way you can be assured you won’t be feeding the pockets of Joe’s Garage instead.

  • Tom

    “It’s Just A Daewoo Sold By Holden” are you TP by any chance?

  • Mike Hunt

    If this looks like a Saab, does this mean it’s as reliable as a saab? LOL

  • Watto_Cobra

    Tom, it’s Dingo. Another day, another alias.

  • http://aca It’s A Daewoo Sold By Holden

    Cobra – really .. it’s me is it.

    Gee wiz fella, how did you work that so fast … durrr

    I have to give it ‘ya … you are so hot your burn’n

    Anyway people … JD Powers has just released thier 2008 USA Initial Quality Survey. The survey questioned 52 000 people in the States based on 3 year old cars purchased in 2005

    TOP 5

    1. Lexus (Toyota)
    2. Mercury (Ford)
    3. Cadillac (GM)
    4. Toyota
    5. Acura (Honda)

  • Watto_Cobra

    Tom asked a question. I answered. Simple.

  • Bavarian Missile

    Hey Watto,how things gorgeous?

    Must say Holden a big improvement but I think the Mondeo has it all over it in looks.

  • alphabeta777

    I disagree. It’s a terrible car, and there’s every reason why it sells as poorly as it does now. Decade old underpinnings and such, cheap looking exterior. (the last time I saw a red strip on the back of a car was sometime last decade)

    Interior is also nasty and plastic for the class and the centre console is very empty without a sat nav screen or other display unit.

    There’s something fundamentally wrong if a mainstream mid-size car gets outsold by a Lexus IS250.

  • Richo

    this car is built off a daewoo chassis and has a 6 cylinder motor which was previously used by daewoo, but was actually designed by porsche (thats a fact by the way, i’m not making that up.

    Everything else on the car has been 100% redesigned by GM. I’m so sick of people saying this is “same old daewoo” because its just not. Yes the barina is “same old daewoo” and so is the viva, but with the epica it has been 100% redesigned, the only difference is they kept the old daewoo floorpan and a few other components to keep the development costs down. 100% of the mechanicals in this car has been redeveloped.

    So its a GM car, learn to understand this, particularly you dingo, who is clearly the biggest wanker to ever grace these forums. When are you going to learn that no one cares for what you have to say?

  • Richo

    alphabeta777 have you driven the latest update mate? No? Well the reviewer here has, so maybe we should listen to him before we listen to the random ramblings of someones assumptions

  • alphabeta777

    I would be pleasantly surprised if they sell more than say 500 a month.

  • http://aca It’s A Daewoo Sold ByHolden

    Richo – if it’s a GM car then it really ain’t any better then is it.

    Sense when has GM ever been good … !!

    Daewoo – GM … no differance

    Regardless, the Epica is still a product of Daewoo … PERIOD !!

    Seriusoly, why would any level headed person buy this car over proven quality vehicles like the Camry, Accord or Mazda6 ??

  • Glen

    Richo I can’t see this superficial update making the car any better. I can’t blame you for believeing Holden’s propaganda that this Daewoo has been extensivly re-engineered because your are one eyed Holden. But the thing is the Epica is an update of the Espero which was pretty rubbish to begin with and the so called re-engineering was a different set of shocks and springs to suit aussie road conditions better.

  • http://www.caradvice.com.au Anthony

    It’s a daewoo. Mate, do us all a favour and go down to your nearest Holden dealer and ask for a drive in the new car. Please do tell me you actually own a car and have the means to get yourself to a dealer.

    I wasn’t aware that the Mazda6, Camry or even the Accord currently offered a diesel powertrain?

    That’s why any level headed person would put the Epica on their look, see, drive list.

  • http://www.caradvice.com.au Anthony

    Glen, same goes for you mate. Get behind the wheel of the car and then report back here.

  • http://aca The Epica Is A Daewoo

    Anthony – i have done exactly that. I drove the Epica when it was first released and admittedly the car was smooth and quiet. However, the car is deadset ugly and the interior is awful not to mention is an absloute slug yet people think the Camry is slow.

    At the end of the day, the Epica is nothing but a revised Daewoo and historically they are renouned for giving thier owners grief … AM I WRONG !!

    Or would you like me to anwser that for you.

    I reserve absolutely no-doubt this car will prove more troubelsome and be less reliable then a proven product from Toyota (Camry), Honda (Accord) or Mazda (6).

    Don’t assume other people haven’t driven this car (or any other for that matter) just because we do not favour a Daewoo product sold by Holden.

    Nobody is denying Holden / GM have improved this car but at the end of the day – it doesn’t change the fact that the very fundamentals remain Daewoo and that particular brand has a questionable past at the very least and that’s why any level headed person would avoid this car and head to a Toyota, Honda, Mazda, Subaru or even a Ford Dealership instead.

    The car (Epica) doesn’t automatically get credit just because Holden has done a few tweaks. Like any other reputable brand has had to do, it must earn it strips.

    Credit doesn’t come for nothing and until proven otherwise, this car will dogged as a Daewoo.

    Oh yeah – driving a car for a few hours or even a week is usually a very differant experiance to actually owning one for period of time especialy when they begin to age.

    The only way this car will prove itself is with time and when it is pitched against vehicles that have consistantly proven thier worth for many generations (eg Camry) it must prove to be every bit as reliable / depenable or nothing at all.

    As harsh as that may seem, reality is – that’s generally way the market compares new entrants to proven products.

  • Golfschwein

    Give me a “fuzz-free” experience for a daily driver any day.

    A fuzz-free experience. Yeah. Goodness.

    The low level of intellect on here is killing me with laughter.

  • http://aca It’s A Daewoo Sold By Holden

    I’ll take that constructive critism, not a problem.

    Now lets talk about this Daewoo Epica

  • Golfschwein

    Sure, although it would be fairest to describe it as a Holden Epica, seeing as that’s what it’s sold here as.

    Describing cars by their maiden name is always problematical because, like, you’d then have to tell people what Toyota Altezzas, Celsiors, Soarers and Harriers are.

  • http://aca Go Toyota

    Golf – names don’t change cars, do they !!

    What’s the differance between a Auris and a Corolla.

  • http://www.caradvice.com.au Anthony

    So just back up Daewoo. So you have actually driven the new Epica Diesel which I drove last week?

  • Golfschwein

    The Epica no longer looks like an embarrassment. If Holden can move these along at the rate of five to eight hundred a month, it’s probably as good as they can expect while the public wait for change to settle in.

  • Glen

    Anthony I haven’t driven the Diesel and would expect it to a much better engine than the wheazy petrol engines that I have driven. I drove the old model when we tried to sell one at the dealership I used to work with. The only reason we got it was because we were low on stock. I drove it and its hard to say if I’ve driven a worse vehicle in the last 5 years. The interior was cheap and nasty and the dash rattled like a baby’s. I thought it was kinda smooth but nothing spectacular. We sold it for around $13500. Not real good for a 9 month old car because we couldn’t get any more for it.

  • Glen

    Correction, sold it for $16500. My bad.

  • http://aca It’s A Daewoo Sold By Holden

    Anthony – no i haven’t driven new the Diesel version and i will reserve my judgement on that model until i have. Regardless, it doesn’t change it’s Daewoo foundations.

    Golf – 800 a month … don’t hold your breath. When there are products like the Camry, Accord, Mazda 6, Liberty and even the Mondeo available – thats not going to happen in this life time

  • realcars

    Gee this Dingo p@sses me off.

    Third world manufacture well Toyota does it’s share of that too.

    Most of the components for Toyotas are produced by small component suppliers in small backyard sweat shops in Japan.
    Toyota pioneered this approach.

    Gee and talk about limited development.Toyota use the Camry platform for just about everything including Lexus.

  • realcars

    I hear the Toyota reliability mantra mostly from people that know nothing about cars and anything else for that matter.

    At least this reworked Epica offers something different and albiet more stylish than a bland base Camry.

    This Toyota reliability thing is absolute bullshit.

    Have to be repaired over distance and time like any other modern vehicle.

    A WORK MATE has an old widebody with 200k which he has had since new and just spent $1500.00 on it fixing it up. He bought a new Camry this year as a car for best. Asked him why he buys Toyota and he says because they are reliable and sighted some obscure info a Holden mech he knows told him about Territories blowing up on impact.WTF.

    This is why he buys Toyota as apparently all other makes aren’t reliable.

    He rode in my 250klm Au the other week and couldn’t get over how smooth it was and asked me if it was new.
    He also commented on how well it accelerated.

  • http://www.rear-wheel.com/blog car fanz blog

    Nice car..
    But I can’t get it..
    I am a poor blogger..

  • http://aca It’s A Daewoo Sold By Holden

    Realcars – EXACTLY … and that’s why the Camry is a soild platform and proven throughout the world in differant models.

    The fact that is it utilsed as the foundation for some Lexus models is testimony to the integrity of the basic design.

    Tell me something – what luxury / prestiage model is founded on the platform that currently forms the Epica.

    Maybe that might p*ss you some more !!

    As for Toyota suppliers, there is no need for me to discuss thier quality control regime … is there.

    Come up with as many excuses as you possibly can but it they will never alter the fact that the Epica is nothing more then a rehashed Daewoo.

    Quiet, smooth and comes with a Diesel : yeah – that really ensures it will match the quality, reliability, dependability and durability of reputable Japanese models … NOT !!

    Like i said, the Epica must earn it’s strips just like every other reputable model has had to do and the Epica will be no different and considering Daewoo’s history is nothing to talk about, my advice … stick to the sure thing because that way you can be more assured you won’t go wrong especially when the motor vehicle begins to age.

    Every make and every model have thier issues but fact remains – some have more then others while others have more yet again.

    I think i’ll take the lesser problems.

  • Bavarian Missile

    Abso-bloody-right Realcars,for a start you want to know where else they make Aurions in the world?

    Chachoengsao, Thailand
    Guangzhou, China
    Santa Rosa, Philippines
    Shah Alam, Malaysia
    Taipei, Taiwan
    Cikarang, Indonesia

    Nothing wrong with Korea,I would gladly get our products made their if we could afford the labour which is why their made in Guangzhou,China! Quality of the labour that comes out of Korea far surpasses that of Thailand ,isnt that where Prados are made,also Rodeos from memory! You dont seem to have a problem with Thailand Dingo!

  • Wheelnut

    Daewoo are a similar story to Hyundai -
    Hyundais main business is buildin heavy excavation mining and construction machinery; just like Daewoo

    When Hyundai fist came to oz 10 years ago their cars were ugly cheap nasty basic poor quality vehicles with a reasonably good engine which came from another major manufacturer..Just like the original Daewoos

    But look at the Hyundai range now – I mean the new I30 won cars guide car of the year.. and given time Daewoo will probably follow suit particularly as the platform is designed by Holden and it uses a Holden engine [As does the Alfa Romeo Brera]

  • realcars

    Toyotas are no more reliable than anything else!!!

    Just an example of the mentality of many Toyota owners I have met.

    Grasping at straws to justify their ride.
    Toyota really tap into the inherent ignorance in their customer base.

    Apparently the hundreds of dollars he spends on his widebody each year still means it’s reliable even though he drives like a nun.LOL.

    U won’t convince me Dingo as I know better and have owned many cars including Toyotas.

  • Wheelnut

    In twrms of looks I would go for the Mondeo.. Because whether or not the Cumry is built on a solid well proven platform doesn’t change the fact that it looks like an Aurion that’s been smashed into a brick wall

  • realcars

    By the way all is not beer and skittles with his 2008 camry Altise. Has had it back a few times for rattles and dashboard lighting prob etc and it hasn’t clocked 5k yet.

  • Wheelnut

    Epica is a Daewoo – What car does Subaru make that is a DIRECT rival/competitot to the epica?

    Bearing in mind the FACT that the Epica is FWD and ALL Subarus are AWD!

  • http://aca It’s A Daewoo Sold By Holden

    Bavarian – you are right, i don’t have a problem with Thailand.

    Quality of motor vehicles or any product for that matter doesn’t necessary depend on country but the culture and corporate discipline of the manufactuer.

    The Hilux is manufactuered in Thailand yet remains amoung the highest quality, most rugged, reliable, dependable and durable in it’s class whereas the Rodeo / Colorado is far from it.

    Take a look at the automotive engineering in America – the Japanese have long been renounded for the continued high quality of thier engineering in the US while Ford, General Motors and Chysler struggle to compare despite operating within the same borders.

    Australia … another great example. Products from Toyota Australia has long been proven to be of higher quality with greater attention to detail not to mention superior reliability and dependability then Holden and Ford Australia despite the fact they may even be manufactuered in the same city (Toyota and Ford)

    It’s not just country of origin … it’s the quality of employess, education, training, instilled culture, behaviour and professionalism.

    No different to schools in the same location – one may be dogged while the other respected.

    I’m sure you get my drift although you will probably hate it with a passion.

  • realcars

    I think early Daewoos ran versions of the last gen mpi Camira engine as did pulsars for several years. In it’s final iteration was an excellent motor transaxle and made by Holden for 10 years or more and exported around the globe if I remember rightly.

    Original Daewoos were based on earlier OPel designs.
    Apart from some pesky electrical probs they have proven to be fairly reliable.

  • http://aca It’s A Daewoo Sold By Holden

    Realcars – i don’t have to convince you. Just prove it to the many other blogger who reads this thread.

    So whats it gonna be fella … referances and tools of proof or just stupid, rot talk.

    Dumb question really, we all know you will take the easy path becuase truth be told – it’s the only option you got.

    And forget the stories bloke … we can all make them up. It just proves you really do have nothing.

    You know what the general public is more presuaded by -’proof of cliam’ and not stupidity.

    We know who’s got the proof and we now who’s got the stupidity … don’t we realcars or should that read : pretend cars !!

  • http://aca It’s A Daewoo Sold By Holden

    Realcars – referances to the Camira, you really are going downhill … fast.

    And please, don’t ever put reliable and Daewoo, Camria or Opel in the same sentance – it’s WRONG !!

    ‘Australian New Car Buyer’ pg 66

    Quote

    Daewoo had a reputation for giving thier owners grief. This is not going to change because thier is a Holden badge on the tailgate”

    unquote

    For you to pass comment that Daewoo was reliable proved beyond any doubt you know absloutely next to nothing yet you call yourself an enthusiast .. fairdinkum, you are killing me.

    I guess it really does take all sorts to make the world.

  • Golfschwein

    Realcars, well done for providing real-life data! I know from personal experience that Camrys can be a lemon no more or less than any other car. I’ve had 2 of them and the first was a fragile lemon.

  • alphabeta777

    All of you get off and go watch the Olympics.

  • Camry and Epica are lemons

    Camry and Epica are lemons !!!!!!!!!!!!

  • http://aca It’s A Daewoo Sold By Holden

    Golf – if that’s the best you got then give up.

    The Camry enjoys a strong and respected reputation not just in Australia but every market is sold in around the world.

    We all know this is true so why bother trying to compare a Daewoo to a Camry otherwise.

    As a cliamed enthusiast, i would have expected alot more but haa – we all know otherwise … don’t we !!

  • Golfschwein

    Realcars, you must acknolwledge the danger in citing real life experiences here. I mean, it just won’t do, Old Man!

    If real life experiences don’t align with anonymously sourced numerical data, give up. You’re obviously spouting “pure rot”.

    :)

  • Glen

    To be honest I would never look at a Camry or Epica with my own money but if someone said I’ve won a car and the choice was between the 2. Its a no brainer I’d take the Camry, mostly because when I go to sell it afterwards its resale will be slightly higher.

  • Wheelnut

    Daewoos are just as safe and reliable as a Daihatsu.. which are the basic budget basement brands of both GM and Toyota.

  • Glen

    Funny how this thread has turned into another “Not as good as Toyota argument”. Its getting boring people, yes compare the 2 but Dingo stop harping on about it. For once I think your right the Camry is a better product than the Epica but can you please shut up.

  • http://aca It’s A Daewoo Sold By Holden

    Golf – it’s obviuosly easier for you to make up a story then provide proof to your claims.

    One is easy – just type way.

    The other… well, not so easy becuase then have to locate a referance.

  • Wheelnut

    Thats right golfie – heaven forbid should anybodys experiences with cars out on the road in the real world be taken seriously when there are surveys to refer to which are often manipulated..not to mention crash tests which are perfromed in controlled conditions and don;t allow for any human input such as swerving to avoid the back of a truck

    Heres a thought – if Toyota’s are so superior to all other makes as we are lead to believe; then why do the Toyota Dealerships have mechanical workshops and Factory trained technicians to fix them… Don’t Toyota make the most reliable best quality cars in the world?

  • realcars

    The LAST Camira was a good car by the standards of the day. I had a 5 speed wagon as a company car back then and 150k no probs what so ever!!!!

    The first Camira with the 1.6 carb engine was plagued with mech probs.

    The company I worked for at the time had dozens of the first and last model Camira wagons and we couldn’t destroy the 2ltr mpi model.

    Excellent small wagon.Loaded with gear to the cage at the back of the front seats. Good on fuel.Went like the clappers and of the dozen or more in our depot over a period of four years none of them missed a beat.

    Much better drive than the sv21 Camry wagons at the time. Didn’t have any probs with sv21 although they weren’t driven with as much gusto as the Camiras as the Camiras were such a fun drive.

    We nick named the Camiras the Alfa Camiras.Night and day between the first in the series and the last.

  • http://aca It’s A Daewoo Sold By Holden

    Glen – Lets completely forget the Camry and compare the Epica to everything else in it’s class.

    I’m happy to do that but eitherway, it’s not gonna change the fact that it is nothing more then a rehashed Daewoo of which Holden as become the modern day showroom floor for.

  • Wheelnut

    OK dingo you don’t like stories even though they may have happened.

    Therefore; you should stop going on about how every mine site in the country let alone every chippie brickie sparkie farmer etc uses Toyotas – It may be true up in your little part of the world but mightn’t be the case in South Aistralia Western Australia or Tasmania

    I mean name one major company; apart from Toyota of course whose entire fleet of road going vehicles [which excludes forklifts etc] consits of Nothing but Toyotas.

  • Golfschwein

    I’m right with you, Wheelnut and Glen.

    Funnily enough, my…uuurrghh…choice would be the Camry as well, but anyone sufficiently disinterested in cars to buy either should drive both to see whether they’re swayed by Camry’s badge presence or the Epica’s diesel and goodies count. I think the Epica doesn’t deserve to be dismissed any more, and I’ve done as much of that as anyone here in the past.

    I din’t buy my Camrys, by the way. They were company cars. I MUST point that out! :)

  • http://aca It’s A Daewoo Sold By Holden

    Wheelnut – When have i ever said Toyota’s don’t have problems, fact is – i never have.

    As i have stated many times before but as usual your memory span is about as long a seagulls beak … every manufactuer and every model have faults but the differance is, some have more then others while others have more yet again.

    Does that sound familiar … i’m sure it does !!

    I would much prefer to lesser like most other people.

    However … if i have ever said Toyota’s never endure problems then by all means – show us all.

    Realcars – The Camira as with most Holdens were amoung the most awful cars to have ever graced Australian roads.

    The Camria was nothing more then GM’s/ Holden’s answer to the Lada Samara.

    Fast forward 20 – 30 years and Holden hasn’t change, just the name of the cars.

    Daewoo, Camira … all the same

  • realcars

    Daewoo has a rep for giving their owners grief by Dingoes account I’d say.

    What a load of BS.

    I like how some of these Motor Journos(Car advice excluded) clutch onto old wifes tales or woes of an era long gone to give themselves some cred and sound like they have their finger on the pulse!

    Australian New Car buyer is another infommercial Geez.

    You can do that treatment on every maker including your beloved Toyota if u want to rake dirt back far enough.
    Gee u wouldn’t need to go back that far either.

  • realcars

    Dingo the last Camira WAS a good car. I relied on it 24/7 for three years 150k as did many of my work mates at the time and we never had an issue with them. Nothing at all!!!

    As I have already mentioned by the measure of the day they were a good drive.

    The sv21 Camrys were also faultless but nobody wanted one. It was always a jostle to get a new Camira that was on order.

    The sv21 usually sat at the depot and had logged up less klms buy the time they were replaced.

  • http://aca It’s A Daewoo Sold By Holden

    Wheelnut – i have lived in Tasmania, New South Wales, Victora, Western Australia and Queensland and frequently visited the NT when i was in the forces so don’t try tell otherwise.

    You are wasting your time.

    And when i have i ever stated anything about 100% Toyota fleets … better still, what prompted your comment !!

    Don’t start losing your cool on me Wheelnut and begin putting words into my mouth that you damn well know i have never said.

    As for chippies, brickies and sparkies – it’s general knowledge and as a self claimed enthusiast … are you seriuosly gonna try tell me otherwise.

    As an enthusiast, this is what i would have expected from you …

    ” Toyota commercials are the most popular in most areas due to thier reputation but other manufactuers sell in resonable numbers aswell ”

    Does that sound accurate enough to you – give or take !!

  • Bavarian Missile

    Quote Dingo “I’m sure you get my drift although you will probably hate it with a passion.

    Dingo you dont have to try teaching me to suck eggs,Im a manufacturer already {have been for 8 years} and agree it comes down to quality controllers from the manufacturer that determines the quality of the goods in the end,but that being said you mention employees, education, training, instilled culture, behavior and professionalism,I can tell you now Korea has it all over Thailand in that regard,Im sure you will agree you would prefer to drive your Australian made Aurion and Camry than one made in Thailand.

    Trying to keep the quality standard the same in a factory is an impossible task,quality varies from day to day!

    Just ask Mattel they took their eye off the ball with their factory trusting them to continue to paint their products with lead free paint,look what happened to them!Doesn’t matter how many quality procedures you put in place people take short cuts to save money,thats becoming more obvious with Toyota having more recalls than ever now!

    I’m sure you get my drift although you will probably hate it with a passion.hahaha

  • Golfschwein

    Good morning Bavarian Missile! I sent you an email of the hello variety that bounced a few days ago, so maybe you could send another so I can see where you are right now.

  • Bavarian Missile

    Hey groover,Ive had to change my email address again! Send it to my yahoo one babe. Im painting at the moment,well trying between walls and answering Dingo!

  • Glen

    Also BM these cost cuts are showing up everywhere. If you went by reputation Qantas would be a no brainer to fly with, but with them sending planes to china for maintinence look what has happened to them.

  • Wheelnut

    I admit that some cars do have more problesm than others

    However the severity of the problem can determine how much media coverage the problem gets even though the incident may be a once off – like the TRD Aurion incident.

    And we all know how the media [in particular TV] love to sensationalise everything and blow things out of proprtion.. if they didn’t Today Tonight and A Current Affair wouldn’t exist

    Yet one particular car like the TRD may have had a piston detach and get nationwide coverage whilst 1000s of Corollas [for example] may have a faulty indicator or something and gets no media coverage at all.. sure not as major as the TRD incident but a much greater problem as it affects more cars

    My point is just because the corolla’s with their faulty indicators arent reported as widley as the TRD was doesn’t mean they are more reliable than any other car

    As I said its the one off incidents that the media focuses which can change peoples opinions of a particular make/model of car…. and because the problem with the 1000s of corollas didn’t make it on to ACA people think that Corollas are more reliable

    Whereas the TRD Aurion incident did have an impact on sales – the fact they have reduced the price several times and there isn’t a waiting indicates that demand/popularit is quite low despite Toytas “engineering excellence”

    Just because you didn’t know about it or didn’t hear about it doesn’t mean it didn’t or doesn’t happen

  • realcars

    To anyone Considering an Epica please ignore the drivel
    and make up your own mind.

    I am sure car advice will give it a go in the full test if it merits it.

    Open your mind Dingo.Open your mind.

  • Golfschwein

    Wheelnut, tell us more about the faulty Corolla indicators. Is it as widespread a problem as the Camry’s peeling cloth door trims, crunching 3rd gear synchros and exploding head gaskets?

  • realcars

    Australian New Car Buyer.LOL

  • Wheelnut

    Same applies to the ANCAP tests – they don’t actually test the safety of the model car itself but the safety of 5 individual cars of that model.. not to mention the fact the tests don;t allow for any variable factors or outside influences etc.. highty conrtrolled very un-realistic

    So even if the 5 Toyota Camrys they use in a particular series of tests [for example] may happen to pass with 5 stars – doesn;t necessarily mean that another 5 cars selected at randomn will pass with 5 stars if a second series of tests was performed.. yet the Media focuses on this so much that it makes peple think that the 5 stars applies to every individual Camry on the road and they are safe

    Surveys to can give a false impression as to the safety and reliabiltiy of a make model of car car as it depends on how the questions were worded; when where and how they questions were asked; how the questions were interpreted by those taking part in the survey; how the answeres were interpreted and finally how much manipulation of the results took place.

    People then read these results and think that because Toyota finished on top they are better. However the results would certainly be different if the survey was performed again in another area with a nother gorup of people etc.

    Things aren’t always whow they seem/

  • Wheelnut

    Even if Holden do have more problems than Toyota they are quick to respond and issue recalls.

    I mean if there is a problem with my Commodore I would like to know about it so I can get it fixed ASAP rather than the manufacturer try to cover it up; keep quiet and just fix it at the next “scheduled service”

    I mean given that there are a number of components in both the Falcon Commodore Camry and Aurion made by the same supplier even though Holden got a faulty batch of seatbelt buckles there’s a bloody good chance Toyota did too

    Sure there might be times when a particular problem is harder than expected to fix such as the leaky oil seals of the VT-VXs but given how intricate and advanced the modern car is with all its computer controlled safety devices etc you’ve got to be careful – its often a process of elimination eventually you will get it right.. as Holden have with the VE as its a much better car than previous models

  • Bavarian Missile

    Absolutely Glen,a proven point on quality control or lack of it! By the way are you a member of the CA forum ? Send me a PM if you are or perhaps you could join !

  • Golfschwein

    That’s what we were talking about in the email, bavarian missile!

  • Wheelnut

    But isn’t Quality a subjective thing? – that is the level of quality is all relative and quite often based on opinion.

    Whether or not something is of quality depends on what you are comparing it to.. Toyotas interiors [for example] may be of better quality than Holden or Ford whereas Holdens or Fords Suspension may be better quality than Toyotas etc.

    Inorder to get an accurate comparison you should compare FWDs with FWDs not RWDs or AWDs… V8s With V8s not V6s or Turbo 4s cars priced at 20-30K with other cars at 20-30K not 200-300K

    It all comes down to your own personal standards and level of expectations.

  • Yianni

    The first steer review kind of makes me sad.

    I expected more from caradvice.

    How does a new engine change the whole car? Everyone who tested the 2007 model said it was pathetic. Bad brakes, low quality materials and it handled like a sloppy pie. And lets not even go to safety ratings and long term reliability.

    What exactly is new in the 2008 model apart from the diesel engine? Nothing I assume. I don’t see how the car can change from been pathetic to now be compared to a Saab.

    Also the words Epica and Saab shouldn’t be used in the same sentence. This car looks like it was designed 10 years ago.

    I wish everyone who will buy one good luck with the resale value of the Epica.

    Look elsewhere people there are much much better cars out there that will actually hold decent resale value.

    Cheers

  • Wheelnut

    True – Holden have fixed the oil leak with the new V6 [which is similar to the one Holden build for Alfa Romeo] and as a result there are quite a number of people who used to own VN-VXs that have upgraded to the VE instead of going elsewhere.. which indicates they didn’t think the oil leak was a really major problem …. Unlike a piston becoming detached now that’s a MAJOR problem

    Yet despite the oil leak over the time of the VN-VX range Holden continued to outsell Toyota didn’t they?

    As for the Camira being Crap – sure I admit it wasn’t a great car but it won COTY… beating the Camry/Corona

  • Wheelnut

    Doesn’t really matter what you think about the Epica as it will be replaced when the much better quality insignia/vectra arrives mid way through next year or early 2010

  • realcars

    Yes Yanni u better stick with Toyota.

    U know when it comes trade-in time the dealers will be knocking each other out to buy it off u and u could turn a profit on it especially if it has no klms on it!

    When people ask me what to buy I tell them to buy Toyota as used examples are worth more than new over time!

    If I had room I’d buy 10 Camrys and store them until I retire and cash them in and turn a handsome profit.

  • Riker

    “If Holden could sell 500-800 hundred a month”….Wishful thinking Golf.

    Holden only managed to move approx 70 of them a month the past 6 months. Now because they have a more expensive diesel (the cost of the car & petrol) car & some minor cosmetic changes they will moves multiple hundreds more……………Nup, I can’t see the market all of a sudden seeing this as a good car.

  • Tomas79

    Holden means a great deal to Korean!!

  • http://www.aussiegolfing.com Aussie Golfing

    This car will makes it’s numbers in fleets, not so much with consumers in general.

  • Wheelnut

    Quote: [It's a Dingo Sold by Holden]: “….don’t try tell otherwise…..You are wasting your time.”

    Don’t we know it?

  • Wheelnut

    The Mondeo and the Mazda6 are both far better than the Epica or the Cum-ry.. particularly in terms of looks performance standard features and value for money.

  • Tomas79

    Bavarian Missile Says: “Nothing wrong with Korea,I would gladly get our products made their if we could afford the labour which is why their made in Guangzhou,China! Quality of the labour that comes out of Korea far surpasses that of Thailand ,isnt that where Prados are made,”

    Definitely not!! The Prados are produced on a Lexus GX line in the Tahara Plant in Aichi, Japan!! This is a lexus dominated plant, also this plant has the distinct recognition as the world’s most advanced plant and has won awards for both the quality of production and attention to detail by JD Power and Associates. Also another U.S study found it to be the number 1 plant importing automobiles into the U.S in terms of quality (ie lowest percentage of faults), even beating BMW’s, and Benz’s German plants!!

  • Wheelnut

    Quote [Tomas79]: Holden means a great deal to Korea!!

    Nice one Tomas..[LOL] very original..[sarcasm] what about

    Toyota means a great deal to 3 extremists?

  • realcars

    Toyota Hilux is made in Thailand.

    Koreans are certainly ahead of the Thais as far as industrial development goes.

    So what is your point Thomas79?

    Thomas79 u really are thick man.LOL.

  • realcars

    Lexus dominated. Does that make u feel good thomas.lol

    The only Hilux in a “Lexus dominated plant”.

    Not the same production line no just “Lexus dominated”.

    I dont think the collective Lexii ownership would appreciate your inference. Built in the same building as a Hilux how crass! I bet Toyota salesmen don’t tell Lexus buyers this “story”.

    Keep deluding yourself.Why don’t u stick a lexus badge on
    the gaudy plastic chrome grill.LOL.

  • milobob

    hmm, looks marginally better than the original and seems to be a great price, however I’m not too sure on the reliability of this car yet. Have only seen a handful (yes, I can count) since it was released. Not doing too well in this department I think, think the Vectra sold more? not sure.

  • Bavarian Missile

    My mistake Tomas,but you also missed out their made in Envigado,Colombia.

  • Golfschwein

    Riker, please re-read my comment. I wrote “If Holden can move these along at the rate of five to eight hundred a month, it’s probably as good as they can expect while the public wait for change to settle in.”

    The operative words are “if” and “probably as good as they can expect.”

    And that’s the truth! It wasn’t my prediction. It’s not something I’m hoping for. I actually couldn’t give a flying rat’s arse whether they sell 37 or 500, but “if” Holden DID manage to sell 500 a month, it’s “probably as good as they can expect”.

    Phew! I hate explaining myself in that degree of detail.

  • realcars

    Just looking at some picks of the Hilux Prado interior and dash and it is generic Toyota blue yuk. The Epica actually has a nicer interior and dash at less than half the price.Amazing.

    Further to the Prados Hilux origins u can still buy a new Prado gx with the 2.7ltr four pot as in the old rv model.

    Funny that.LOL.

  • Richo

    my goodness… so many tossers on this site.

    Thats really all i have to say

  • realcars

    Sounds like Korean made in the case of the Epica can be a good thing!
    Don’t know where your new Toyota will be made?

  • http://civic Eward

    Anthony we hear you loud and clear mate…your on the payroll because no person in their right mind would be telling people to go and drive this bucket, I don’t know if you have driven one of these buckets once they have done about 20,000km? Just in case you havn’t I’ll tell you about them because I have driven one, IT”S A BUCKET OF SH.. simple as that, they creak, they squeak, they fall apart, they break down and they spend time at the dealership… Holden dealers tell us that we a stupid and don’t understand how this car works…IT”S A CAR FOR GOD SAKE!!!
    so don’t tell me that you are a good journalist and take us for fools… next you’ll tell us that the Lada is a great car and that we should all be driving one…wake up to your self, if you think that you are telling us the truth you should give up this job as a journalist and keep your job as a marketer.

  • Richo

    cheers Edward for proving my point…

  • Evora

    Anthony, the upgrade to CDXi diesel from the lower spec diesel is actually $3000 according to the figures posted in your article; not the $2000 you claimed it to be, still reasonably good value though.

  • Richo

    i actually own a 2008 lancer VRX (take that everyone who thinks i’m one eyed holden, my fravorite car company is actually mitsubishi! so fckn you) and i love my VRX, handles great, looks good, nice raspy engine (over 3500rpm anyway) BUT i tell you what in my day to day commute, if i had a 6 speed auto turbo diesel holden epica with leather seats in my driveway (which would have cost me the same as my lancer) i would drive the epica in the daily commute. I would still be in the lancer every time when i wanted to have a “drive” but if it was just general transportation, give me a quiet, comfortable cruise mobile every day. And by all reports thats exactly what the epica is

    It’s never gonna be the best car in class, but thats mainly down to outright handling ability and this kind of thing which in reality you don’t use every day.

    Its like the argument of which is better, falcon commodore or aurion, ofcourse one is the best, but for the average man in the street just driving to work, or some pensioner driving to the shops, they are all identical. Those ridiculing people who own epica’s are just missing the point. Just because we are all car people doesn’t mean EVERYONE has to be car people. For alot of people the most important things are comfort, ease of use and value for money. And like it or not the epica does VERY well in all three areas. It’s just as comfortable as the camry, mazda 6 and mondeo, its just as easy to drive BUT it kills all of them in terms of the level of equipment you get for the money, especially when you take into account a diesel engine which the camry and mazda 6 currently don’t even offer! and the mondeo’s diesel is nearly 8k more expensive!

    You lot need to get your heads out of the sand and realise that not everyone is willing to pay an extra 8k for the sort of dynamic ability that 90% of family car buyers just will never use!

  • Richo

    and edward you know why i, and probably everyone else, knows your full of shit when you claim to have all this experience with epica’s? Because if you really did you would be able to name specific issues you have experienced, not just general stuff like “it squeak and creak and break down”

    For example with my lancer i know that their is a rattle in the steering colum, notice how i can be specific their and you can’t? I also know that both falcons and commodores have problems with power steering, always have, again note the specificness?

    I have spoken to holden mechanics who complain bitterly about the new barina’s having issues, they also complain about rodeo’s, and they use to complain about commodores (i’m going back to the VT commo’s power steering woe’s here) BUT i haven’t heard one yet complain about the epica’s, or the captiva’s for that matter!

    Incedently the biggest thing dealership mechanics hate is people coming in and complaining that their car can’t match the ADR fuel economy sticker. When questioned they usually always admit they drive predominantly in city traffic, but still think it must be a problem with the car.

  • Richo

    and before you say edward that you where just being breif or whatever and thats why you didn’t name specific issues, i also know that the phsycology of dissatisfied customers is to tell everyone they can AT LENGTH about what problems they are having, they go on and on and on about it. Your not doing that, that’s why we all know you are full of shit

  • Tomas79

    Bavarian Missile Says: “My mistake Tomas,but you also missed out their made in Envigado,Colombia. “

    No, I did not!! The 3rd generation LC120 Prado, which Australia receives, is only manufactured in the tahara plant in Japan.

    Realcars, you are seriously mentally ill, seek help, and I’m not kidding!As I said before, The Hilux doesn’t share J12 Platform with prado!! Although if it did, It would be even better!! As for gx being sold with 2.7 L petrol engine…. Not in australia, so what your point??

    When will CARADVICE do something about this joker??

  • A joke

    They compare it to a saab, I kinda think thats unfortunate for the Epica.Like the saab has a great resale as well! How many of those were sold last year 600? It is a better Epica, but then that wouldnt be hard :( Its 10 Years old and sorry Anthony but their is no advantage buying a diesel, it costs more and same at the pump..now second hand…buy a real car, like a 6 or sonata, magentis, camry instead of a bitsa..

  • Richo

    Tomas79 i’m not really sure what point your trying to prove here, toyota has made no secret of the fact that they have intentionally built production plants in “developing countries” throughout both asia and south america. They actually boast about the profitability gains they have acheived by doing this. Many other manufacturers including VW and BMW now follow toyota’s lead into this “new world”. So what exactly are you trying to prove? A lot of toyota’s are made in developing countries, yes ofcourse not all of them, we are quite aware of that, but certainly a number of them are, including some of the bigger sellers too!

  • Mike Hunt

    Just watching the Olympics, an ad for the Holden Astra came on. They were comparing fuel usage between it and the corolla. In the ad it was spelt “corola”….so whose working at holdon?

  • http://www.caradvice.com.au Anthony

    Mate, where did you get the idea that I was comparing the Epica to a Saab. I said it might look like a Saab 9-5. Never heard anyone complain about the Saab styling. That’s where the comparison stopped. Read the review properly mate and I might get some more sleep at night if I didn’t have to respond to this kind of rubbish.

  • Richo

    Anthony – just don’t cave in to these blokes! Write it as you see it, if you think its an alright thing then you say it’s an alright thing. Your the only professional here the rest of them are just one eyed badge babies who just don’t like holden. Stick to your guns mate, write it as you see it! I just hope these sorts of things don’t stick in your mind and cloud your objectivity when you do the full review on it

  • Golfschwein

    Tomas79, I sent you a message in the forum :)

  • James

    um… sorry I think Holden has started using BMW’s plans for the BMW M5 :S

  • Tom

    Honda assemble a number of cars in Thailand – nothing wrong with them.

  • http://www.littlepixiegifts.com.au Gift-Ed

    For those harping on about the reliability and build quality of the Epica, go across to GMinside and read the forum there. The Holden mechanics and dealers say they have very few issues with the Epica and it has one of the lowest rate of warranty claims in the range.

    I also don’t remember all the crap reviews that people are referring to (yet none are quoting). The reviews I read said it was quietly competent, uninspiring and had a lack of grunt.

    Here we have an upgraded version with more equipment, more safety gear and a better engine, offering an affordable diesel alternative to families. It’s not suddenly best in class, but it’s better than it was.

    Would I buy one? Hell no. But I couldn’t buy a Mondeo either because I enjoy driving and Mondeo only comes in auto (except for the XR5). So I’d be going for a Mazda 6 or waiting for the next gen Golf to arrive.

    But that doesn’t mean the Epica hasn’t been improved. And maybe it is an ok car for those who have never heard of Michael Schumacher or Peter Brock.

  • Garry

    Richo & Anthony you two are really the only ones with a brain.I love reading comments here as the amount of shit that flows from these braindead idiots is just amazing.It is not hard to work out why Korea has a bigger(much bigger)economy then ours with some of the worlds biggest companies.Hyundai/Kia,LG,Samsung,Kumho Tyres.Please keep the redneck crap flowing it just proves how stupid Australians really are.Iam an aussie but the thing is I finished High School.

  • Tom

    Well this was a popular news post.

    And Tom 3 posts up, stop stealing my user ID/

  • Wheelnut

    Tomas79 says:

    Bavarian Missile Says: “My mistake Tomas,but you also missed out their made in Envigado,Colombia. “

    No, I did not!! The 3rd generation LC120 Prado, which Australia receives, is only manufactured in the tahara plant in Japan.

    BM didn’t specify the Prados that we get here in Oz she was talking about Prados in General which are made in Both Japan and Columbia in the same way that BMWs are made in Germany and Seth Efrica.. So she is still right.

    If a Cat has Kittens in an Oven Does that make them Cakes?

  • Wheelnut

    And whose to know that if the plant in Japan is unable to fulfil the Demand for Prados in Australia that Toyota wouldn’t import a couple from Columbia – particulartly if they are supposedly of the same high level build quality – what with Toyotas “Kaizen” philosophy and all…. not to mention have virtually the same specifications etc.

  • Bavarian Missile

    Richo many of us share your problem,being accused of being one eyed Holden /Ford fans when we dont even drive them presently,quiet ironic dont you think when the Toyota supporters DO drive Toyotas on this site! Being called bogans for supporting them is plain dumb!

    Thanks Wheelnut you beat me too it,Im starting to think I have to be more clear in EVERYTHING I comment on,just as Golfy says!

  • Bavarian Missile

    WOOHOO Just heard Marcus Ambrose {commonly known as GOD by his V8 SUPERCAR fans} has just won his first race in Nascar,yet another fellow Tasmanian doing it well {in a FORD}! Congrats !

  • Richo

    garry your calling anthony and me brainless for supporting the epica and saying hey its not actually that bad, but then you start going on about how great korea is?? sending mixed signals here buddy! And also you know anthony is the guy who wrote the article right? He isn’t just some random blogger like you and me

  • Richo

    Hey BM, too bloody right, i hated the bloke when he was in V8supercars but i’m really happy to see him doing well over there. Took a hell of alot of balls to do what he has done so my hate for the bloke fairly quickly turned into respect!

    Also its frustrating isn’t it when your fravorite car brands, in my case, are mitsubishi and porsche, but just because i happen to think holden is alright too suddenly i am one eyed holden… even though i have CONSITANTLY stated that the FG falcon is a better car then the VE commodore.. i mean how one eyed is that! Their just such wankerS!

  • Richo

    definition of one eyed – forming an opinion about something and then finding it completely impossible to be moved from that opinion regardless of what new information may arise… sounds like a heck of alot of the toyota and ford fans on this site doesn’t it! Just look up ANY article about holden for evidence of this blatent one eyed idiology of these bloggers, who then turn around and accuse you of being one eyed for saying hang on, lets look at the facts here.. this shit ain’t all that bad!

  • Richo

    there is only a few people who blog on here who have any bit of a clue and aren’t one eyed.. i could name them but their really isn’t any point because they know who they are, by the way TP and dingo are NOT one of them!

  • TP

    Yeah it would be the Ford camp lol. I can only think of myself and Dingo… we are the only ones who on a consistent basis provide third party evidence to back up our claims.

  • Golfschwein

    And Dingo’s mentally ill (which you’ve never worked out), so that just leaves you, TP, with claims such as 55% of Fords go back to the dealership within – what was it? – 6 months.

    These figures you carry on with are totally unbelievable. You never, ever provide real life experience, because you don’t and can’t communicate effectively with people to give yourself a fighting chance of finding out what’s really going on in the world.

    All you produce is anonymous figures. The internet is full of people quoting anonymous figures and their associated lies, sadly.

  • Bavarian Missile

    Richo,babe see it goes to prove that it doesn’t matter what you think of Marcus or what he drives you are an Australian and support fellow Australians off shore! I doubt you’ll get Dingo congratulating him as hes not in a Toyota,would be interested to know who the Toyota trio are supporting in the Olympics!

    It seems the Toyota camp dont like the facts when presented in front of them,and especially when CA time and time again road test Holden and Ford products on this site and back the product with praise from driving them ,do they ever read the stories cause they dont seem disagree with the writers thoughts on the drive they just want to bag the product each and every time.Makes you wonder why CA bother doing a story at all for them,they may as well put up a heading and a picture and they will get the same negative response from the Toyota trio! From what I read Anthony Crawford likes this car,congratulates it on its smoothness its well sorted chassis its low down torque in 6th gear,the interior is well laid out seats comfortable,plenty of safety on board and most of all how its improved from the previous model! Sure its not as pretty as the Mondeo but it still represents good buying !

  • TP

    Drive.com.au Golf… this isnt some unreliable source. As for the rest of your post… LOL you should be a pyschologist mate.

  • TP

    BM the problem wih your little argument is that Toyota supports aernt negative… when you state a fact that 55% of Falcons need to go back within 5 months thats not negative, its factual. What is negative is a Ford fairy going to a Toyota post and claiming they are boring, ugly and ininspiring which has no basis and given the fact that Toyotas are selling so well, its clearly wrong.

  • Golfschwein

    Oh, bewdy, thanks for that, I’ll go look it up. Let’s see, reported on Drive…here we go…ewww…Drive’s pretty big, isn’t it? Is it still there? Was it ever there? I’ll keep looking.

    Does it make any mention of the Camry’s chronic head gasket and 3rd gear synchro problems as well as the peeling cloth door trims and bulging passenger airbag covers, the latter of which are just starting to show on the previous model Camry?

    Don’t forget kids, if any of you have an experience outside of the statistics’ norm, it couldn’t possibly have happened.

    Lies, lies, LIES! :)

  • Golfschwein

    Well, I didn’t find that article. It’s probably there in the possible 139 story matches, but I have to go out soon.

    I found two. I read the first “Locals lag on Quality” (no mention of the 55% thing) and will come back to the one immediately below it, “Toyota’s quality Reputation suffers a glitch”.

  • Golfschwein

    Seek bad news and ye shall find it.

  • Richo

    TP yes 55% go back to the dealership, for a service you retard! If your actually trying to claim that 55% of falcons require a warranty claim within 5 months then you are deluded, seriously seriously deluded. I mean you cannot possibly beleive that? Even you, can’t be dumb enough to believe that. Your a crock of shit mate

  • Richo

    i also searched drive . com . au and couldn’t find anything. Either provide evidence (like you claim so boastfully that you are the only one who does) or admit that you are full of shit. And don’t say you can’t put a link in here because all you have to do is add a few spaces between the dot com and it will work

  • Toyota are overated junk

    TP’s figures are irrelevant as they do not exist outside his pathetic mind..

  • Richo

    the thing i always find funny is when they talk about toyota reliability, they always quote LEXUS’s results in serveys, making the assumption that lexus quality automatically translates to toyota quality. Completely forgetting about the fact that toyota pump SIGNIFICANTLY more development dollars into lexus products then they do regular toyota products. It’s like saying Ford’s are fantastic because i found this survey that says volvo’s are really really good, therefore fords must be good because they own volvo… its completely irrelevant

  • AC COBRA

    TP is on smoking Mr herb, he is so deluded he’s facts are from space the same space between the ears…

  • Watto_Cobra

    Richo, you may have read Garry’s post too quickly. He supported you and Anthony.

    QUOTE from Garry =”Richo & Anthony you two are really the only ones with a brain.”

    Bavarian Missile, news about Ambrose. It was going to happen no matter what, would’ve been earlier except for 3 missed opportunities.

    Regarding the new Epica, sounds like a step (or three) up so far.

  • http://aca Toyota No.1

    Bavarian – Yes … congratulations to Marcus Ambrose and if it wasn’t a Toyota that crossed the line first i was going for Marcus otherwise. It was a good drive from him and his first win in the Nationwide Series from 59 starts -ironically he was driving the No.59 Ford for STP.

    Sense Marcus has joined the NASCAR Series, he has performed poorly on the standard circuits but he does become alot more competitive on the road courses or tracks and a well deserved win for him today.

    Kyle Busch came 2nd in the 92 Zippo Camry for D’Hondt Motorsport and was the Teams first (debut) race in the Nationwide Series and the car was brand new and never been raced before so that is testimony to just how good Kyle Busch really is.

    Anyway – tomorrow is the top tier race (Sprint Cup) and should prove another good race. Historically – Kyle Busch and Tony Stewart (Toyota) are strong and successful at road courses but so is Marcus Ambrose who will be starting 11th.

    My guess, it will most likely come down to another sprint between Ford and Toyota although Jimmy Johnson for Chevrolet is on the pace at the moment aswell and should prove competitive.

    So far this weekend the results stand as is

    Craftsman Trucks :

    1. Toyota (Johnny Benson)
    2. Ford (Erik Darnell)
    3. Toyota (Todd Bodine)

    YTD wins per manufactuer including this weekends result :

    1. Toyota – 7
    2. Chevrolet – 5
    3. Ford – 2
    4. Dodge – 1

    Nationwide Series (2nd tier) :

    1. Ford ( Marcus Ambrose)
    2. Toyota (Kyle Busch)
    3. Ford (Matt Kenseth)

    YTD wins per manufactuer including this weekends result :

    1. Toyota – 15
    2. Chevrolet – 5
    3. Ford – 4
    4. Dodge – 0

    As i said, the Sprint Cup (1st Tier) race is on tomorrow (about 5am our time) but they will go into the race with manufactuers wins todate standing as is :

    1. Toyota – 8
    2. Chevrolet – 5
    3. Ford – 4
    4. Dodge – 4

    And just to let people know, NASCAR recently forced Toyota to detune thier Nationwide engines because of thier over-competitivness as Nissan was penalised here in Australia for similar reasons.

    What is it with GM (Holden) and Ford teams & thier supporters when they lose races. Why do they whinge, swine, cry and carry-on when other manufactuers walk all over them.

    Despite the fact that TRD USA (and teams) were working within the rules (as admitted by NASCAR themselves) and mid-season, NASCAR officials forced all Toyota teams to replace a spacer in the carby to restrict air flow and reduce HP by 15.

    It was reported (although it was well known anyway), that Chevrolet Teams were the biggest complainers (whingers) of Toyota’s dominace in the Nationwide Series and to my surprise – Toyota recieved alot of support from racing fans critising NASCAR and the other teams for lobbying a restriction on Toyota’s HP despite the fact they were working well and truely within the regulations.

    Alot of people stated that Chevrolet, Ford and Dodge should work harder to catchup instead of forcing Toyota to slow down but one good thing that came out of it and that was more respect and recognition for Toyota so if they can keep winning then hopefully it will prove a win – win for them eitherway.

    It was no different here in Oz when Nissan conquered the Supercar Series. Instead of the locals working harder to catch up, they forced Nissan to slow down.

    That is not motorsport, just bad sportsmanship.

    And just for good measure, Timo Glock for Toyota came 2nd in the last F1 race retaining Toyota’s 4th place in the manufactuers title from 10 competing teams.

    And Bavarian … why wouldn’t Toyota fans be going for Australia in the olympics. I hope you are not suggesting we are not Aussies becuase i can tell you now, i’m nothing but Ozzie.

    Born and bread here, so were my parents, thier parents and so forth. Raised as a country lad (not city p**f), left school and served this great nation in the forces, eat meat pies, drink VB and love AFL (go the Hawks) but
    for as long as my backside faces the ground, i will buy a Holden … NEVER !!

    Incase you haven’t noticed – Holden and Ford is 100% American owned so they are everybit overseas companies as Toyota

    OH yeah, what do our Aussie lads love driving in the Aussie Outback which just happens to be THE REAL AUSTRALIA.

    Have a think about it … !!

  • http://aca Toyota No.1

    ooops … embarassing, made a mistake – ooch !!

    “As long as my backside faces the ground, i will never buy a Holden … NEVER”

  • Glen

    I always have to laugh at the import brigade crying foul over the Nissan GT-R. The reality was Group A (V8 Supercars didn’t exist until 1997) was dwindling all over the world by 1991 and 1992, Australia was one of the last countries to use it. What basically killed Group A was the GT-R, it was a great car yes but if Group A continued with the GT-R other manufacturers would of had to develop they’re own version, which would of sent costs skyward in a hurry. Did you ever notice despite the dominance of the GT-R only 2 teams used one in Australia and one was a factory team, 1 of only 2 factory teams at the time and had the biggest budget. The other was Bob Forbses Team GIO one driven by Mark Gibbs. The reason no-one else had one was $$$. It cost too much to run. Whereas the Sierra was fast and more cost effective. Remember Nissan only built the GT-R because they couldn’t build a competitive RWD skyline GTS-R against the Ford Sierra.

  • Wheelnut

    Exactly Glen; Even Freddie Gibson manager of the Winfield Racing Team has said that he was having trouble keeping the cars on the track as it was becoming too expensive to build run and fix the cars.. and even if GT-Rs were allowed to continue under the New Format [in 93] he doubts that he would have continued to race the Nissans and opted for Holden or Fords

    So really they were a Victim of their own success.

  • Toyota = junk

    Toyota always cheat to win, TRD USA (and teams) are not working within the rules NASCAR officials forcing all Toyo teams to detune all engines “WHATS NEW”, most people in Australian don’t care about Nascar Results Dingo, congrats to Ambrose “way to go”, Toyo fans can’t respect Aussie drivers but they would if Ambrose drove for them.. funny that !!!!!

    Toyota Teams are known for cheating they should be banned from motorsport indefinitly, as for Nascar Toyleta has no correlation with thier road going cars you can’t even buy a V8 road car, the only V8 they have is in selected American trucks.

    I HATE TOYO TOSSERS > BIG BUNCH OF CHEATS !!!!!

  • Andrew M

    Dingo,
    what body of motorsport ever cares about the sales side of a particular manufacturer??
    i think you are stretching it there a bit……

    it is quite common that every now and then a particular vehicle be altered to ensure even racing.

    a few years back, john bowe ran a stock as a rock mustang for PHR in the pro car series.
    they constantly had to detune the thing further and further as he kept running away from the field.

    in v8 supercars, when ford or holden enter a new shell, they must submitt it for a lengthy testing process to ensure parity, due to code blueprint that was enforced some years back to ensure racing was competitive.

    in motor racing,
    credit should be given to the team.
    not the sponsors,
    not the manufacturer, But the ability of the team and driver.

  • NO ONE LIKES CHEATING AND TOYOTA ARE MASTER CHEATERS

    I HATE TOYO TOSSERS > BIG BUNCH OF CHEATS !!!!!

  • Glen

    Dingo come over to the forum and we can discuss the many points wrong with your post in the forums. This section is for the Holden Epica review, not the differing fortunes of motor racing series. I’m guilty of getting off target too and I apologise to every other poster on here for that.

    By the way just to be on topic, they may have improved the Epica but if anyone is looking at these comments wondering what they should buy as a medium car. I personally would recommend looking at the Mazda 6, Ford Mondeo, Honda Accord & Accord Euro or if you’re looking for a cheaper alternative probably the Toyota Camry. My opinion but check out all these cars then decide.

  • Andrew M

    Dingo,
    avesco has sent out the invites to other manufacturers.
    stop making out as if they ARENT allowed to enter.

    i find it funny that you consider it bad sportsmanship that ford demanded the detuning of its OWN vehicles….

    you will go to any lentgh to tell your tales you way wont you???

    why would Ford lobby to kill off what was their most sucessfull model??

  • Mike Hunt

    Toyota cheat? LOL!! What’s next…Saab are good?

  • Andrew M

    even in the early forms of motorsport (go karting),
    the winner is awarded with a lead weight trophy.

  • Wheelnut

    Quote [Dingo]:When AVESCO eventually decides to allow other manufactuers to join the V8 Supercar Series, i hope none do becuase as soon as they start making a mockery of the local V8’s – the same ‘ole, same ‘ole will happen unless Holden and Ford are forced to catch-up for once instead of slowing others down.

    You Just don’t get it do you

    Other mmanufacturers are allowed to enter the V8 supercars just as they are with the other motorsport categories. However; just like the other motorport categories around the world; – V8 supercars have a series of rules and regulations which lists the specifications requirements and other criteria the manufacturers must meet in order to be elligible to race…

    I take it by your above quote statement that you haven’t read them – the book is written in plain english so it should be easy for you to understand

    And the current rules etc have resulted in the closest fairest level of racing and competition we have seen in years –

    Your beloved Toyota has been asked at least 4 times in the last 10 years if they want to enter but they have said No

  • Andrew M

    Wheelnut,
    yeah it is becoming a bit of a joke the whole “wont let any else enter V8′s” saga.

    what happens if toyota decides to enter V8′s??
    what next???
    toyota isnt allowed to enter the carrera cup? ha ha ha
    (surprised that one hasnt started already)

    some cant help but want rain on parades i suppose

  • realcars

    Holden go better and they do!

    Superb diesel or Porsche designed straight six.5speed auto.

    The highly respected Motoring mag Wheels rated the previous Epica ahead of the Camry. HOLDEN have added an euro diesel and improved styling and features and it sounds like they have also retuned the suspension.

    I will remind the likes of Thomas69 that people have been reading Wheels since before he was in his daddies testicles.LOL.

    65k for a Hilux with a wheel screwed to the back.LOL.

    I agree with the previous blogger that everything in this class is better than a Camry. Wouldn’t be hard.LOL.

  • Glen

    Bugger it I’ve got to point this out to prove how wrong you are Dingo. The Sierra’s NEVER had twin turbos, EVER. The Sierras were never nobbled by CAMS for parity. In fact during 1987 they allowed Ford to introduce a Sierra with a bigger turbo which was the RS500. You got to remember back in the 80′s and early 90′s Holden did not have the development budget to develop a world beater like the BMW M3 and Sierra RS500. But what HDT produced in 1986 and 1987 did a bloody good job compared to the rich european teams. Remember the 1st ever WTCC was won by Allan Moffat & John Harvey in a VL Commodore. It was originally beaten by 6 BMW M3s but all 6 were found with carbon fibre body parts hence illegal. They didn’t even have a spare engine and a hand full of guys not getting paid.

    By the way there was only the Holden V8 because as you should know-but im guessing you don’t-Ford had no Australian V8 model racing from 1985 to 1992, which coincidently was the run of Group A in Oz. So stop saying the Aussie V8′s were whinging about not winning. A Holden didn’t win a single race in the atcc from 1987 till 1992 so I don’t think just because the GTR showed up in late 1990 that they were whinging. No one whinged. Only CAMS when they saw a car that not everyone could afford to run was dominating and turning competitors and spectators away. But I’ll just leave with this comment, Nissan had to build a 4wd twin turbo 2.6 litre 6 cylinder to beat a RWD 2 litre single turbo 4 cylinder built by Ford.

  • Wheelnut

    Dingo Says: As for the Australian V8 Supercars, lets not kid ourselves. Despite the fact that Holden, Ford, Toyota and Mitsubishi were all local manufactuers at the time – only 2 of them engineered RWD V8’s while the other 2 FWD V6’s but without any consideration towards Toyota or Mitsubishi, AVESCO ruled in Holden and Ford’s favour.

    Ah yes but in the last 10 didn’t Mitsubishi and Toyota release a completely new design of car that being the 380 and the Avalon/Aurion?… I think they did

    Therefore; Toyota had every opportunity to put forward a proposal to Tokyo to allow them to design and build a New RWD car.

    Holden put forward a case to Detroit for a New Aussie car even though GM were in Financial trouble and they got the green light

    So you’d think it would be logical decision and a rather simple project given that Toyota is the worlds richest car company who could use their ezxtensive international resources not to mention their supposedly superior platforms and engineering etc to build such a car instead of basing it on a 5 year old car from the USA

    If they did so they would be elligible to race in the V8 supercars/ Imean F1 Didn’t change the rules neither to allow Toyota to compete so why should V8s be any different?

    Its like when you’re going for a job if you don’t meet the minimum standards for the job [which are listed in the job description] its very unlikely that the company will make changes to the job specifications or the required qualifications to suit your inabilities etc.

    For example If you want to be a brain surgeon but you haven’t studied medicine do you think a hospital will employ you? Get Real!

  • realcars

    Amazing Dingo. wheels rules in favour of the previous model Epica over the Camry. The Epica should wipe the floor with the Camry with this newer improved version.

    Yes Wheels is a reputable magazine and over the years I admit they haven’t given Toyota models the gong very often but then again they have given credit where it is due to most other makes.

    This is because most Toyotas don’t impress at any level other than being mainly inoffensive and trading on their marketing prowess.

    Toyota reliability mantra is bs as they aren’t any more so than most other makes today.

    U can quote Lexus in quality surveys but then again who is going to admit any probs when they paid that much for a Camry.LOL.

  • Glen

    Dingo, get your facts straight before opening your mouth. For one AVESCO did not make up the new V8 only formula in 1993, they didnt even exist until 1997. CAMS made up the category because for popular demand by the paying spectators to bring back a V8 formula. All manufacturer’s were invited but the rules for the new category known as Group 3A V8 Touring Cars was a vehicle that was RWD, 4 door, a V8 engine with no more than 5000cc, pushrod, naturally aspirated. Toyota & Mitsubishi could have joined but niether had a push-rod V8 at the time. The reason for the rules was for cost & cost only. Plus do you really think a 600 Hp FWD would be competitive. Toyota & Mitsubishi were allowed to create a RWD racing chassis just as long as the chassis itself was based on a production chassis. So they could of built a RWD Camry or Magna/380 if they so chose. Mitsubishi even got to the point of allowing the Luff’s to build a Magna future tourer a while back to see if it was viable. It used a Holden V8 in that category because it was allowed but in V8′s they had to have their own engine. Like NASCAR.

    You say in your comment they should of allowed blown 6 AWD’s for Toyota and Mitsubishi saying it would be more appropriate for them? Hows your logic, what Camry or Magna had a blown 6 & AWD? None yet. Although it may exist in your head along with that twin turbo Sierra. Toyota & Mitsubishi chose not to homologate a RWD race chassis or get a push-rod V8 so therefor did not compete.

    Now lets get this straight, NASCAR, V8 Supercars & even DTM is a Parity formula, its written in their rule books. This means that if any manufacturer is significantly faster than the others measures are taken up to even out the competition. Since Toyota engines are only new to NASCAR their setup are new so are fine tuned to be similar performance as the other engines, as close as possible. Problem is these parity formulas don’t take into account if only one team from that manufacturer is actually doing anygood and the others are at the back of the pack. Take for example Toyota in NASCAR, Joe Gibbs racing is the only Toyota team that has won a race in Sprint Cup & Nationwide Series this year, whereas the other toyota teams have not even looked like winning. NASCAR just saw the disproportion of wins in the Toyota column (all by pretty much the #20 car by the way) and said we have to make it more even. Never mind the fact that Kyle Busch is the only Toyota thats consistantly winning, may have something to do with the team and the driver. Its not bad sportsmanship, its parity. Formula 1 is not a Parity formula so this problem doesn’t exist.

  • Golfschwein

    Realcars, although I’m a fan of this site, I must agree that nobody matches the authority and history of WHEELS in this country.

    An Epica isn’t about to grace my kerbside any time soon, but it’s true that nobody’s written anything absolutely horrible about it. Its negatives are well known and amount to soft power outputs from its small capacity sixes and a certain Plain Jane anonymity (no different from another mid-size contender there!)Its high points won’t challenge class leaders. Simple.

  • Richo

    oh god not this GTR crap again. Lets look at the facts:

    1. Group A around the world was dead, Australia was one of the last countries to use the formula. The manufacturers, INCLUDING NISSAN IN JAPAN where no longer supporting the formula and as such Australia needed to find a new format for their local touring car series

    2. In the last season of group a crowds attending the race meetings where dwindling and no one AT ALL was watching on tv, no one wanted to watch a racing series where only two cars, the freddie gibson nissan’s, could possibly win. Something had to be done or touring car racing in australia would be dead

    3. CAMS canvessed the manufacturers about what possible replacement forumla they could run. Only three manufacturs where interested, holden, ford and nissan. Nissan Australia wanted some rediculous variation of group a which pretty much made it impossible for anyone else to win because they where the only ones with AWD, they wanted to maintain their domination, they didn’t want to be in a series where they wheren’t certain they would win. Holden and Ford wanted a more simple, cost effective format which NISSAN AUSTRALIA REFUSED TO SUPPORT!

    4. CAMS where faced with two choices, the format which would go on to become V8 supercar which was supported by TWO manufacturers, or an even more expensive variant of group a which JUST ONE manufacturer supported… pretty obvious decision.

    But yes it was just all about holden and ford not playing fair… please. This “they cheated the GTR” crap is just an urban legend, nothing more. If the GTR was allowed to continue with its utter domination, and lets remember it wasn’t domination because it was the best car, it was domination because it was the only car with AWD and a turbo six which was obviously always going to be the most powerful powerplant comapred to a 4.9ltr V8 and a turbo 4. its not that it was a spectacularly better engineered race car, it was just the specification they chose gave it a massive advantage.

  • Richo

    Toyota Motorsport, congratulations on your NASCAR success, but hows F1 turning out for you? oh… well thats embaressing isn’t it, and to think you guys run the biggest budget too! eek..

  • Wheelnut

    Dingo says – When the rules were changed all those years ago, there would have been absloutely no reason why conditions could not have been allowed for Toyota and Mitsubishi to use blown AWD sixes as it would have more appropiateLY aligned to thier local operations.

    What locally built cars were Toyota building at the time back in 93 that could have been developed into a AWD Production Car..? I know Mitsubishi made an AWD Magna but Toyota didn’t have AWD Camry…now did they.

    Because inorder to compete in the V8s they must be based on Production Cars they can’t be one off prototypes.
    [Again I suggest yo get a copy of the rules n regulations]

  • Richo

    And yes as someone else said even Fred Gibson stated that even he, the owner of the richest team in australian motorsport at the time, was suggesting that he was finding it too expensive to keep the cars on the track and was seriously considering a switch to a different, cheaper manufacturer. What does that tell you?

    By the way with a straight fight as far as which car was better engineered, the gibson nissans would have been given a VERY big run by dick johnsons sierra’s which at the time where considered the best sierra’s in the world. But even dick’s sierra’s which where awesomely engineered race cars couldn’t compete because they had two less cylinders and two less driven wheels, its simply academic that they couldn’t compete. I always ask these people who go on about the GTR being “kicked out” what should have happened instead? I’m yet to hear any of them give me a REALISTIC answer to that question!

  • Glen

    Dingo SHOW me this twin-turboed Sierra raced in the ATCC, name the driver and what year’s. Give me proof, your always talking about providing the Facts, give them to me.

    There was a V6 Sierra raced in South Africa, even a V8 version based on the 302 Windsor (that thing would have flown).

    The XR4Ti was the 1st Group A Sierra raced in 1985 and 1986 and its engine was a 2.3 litre single turbo, then in 1986 the Sierra RS Cosworth was release with a Double Overhead Cam Single Turbo 2.0 litre. In mid 1987 the Sierra RS500 was released with a larger Garret Turbocharger.

    1 or 2 XR4 Sierra raced in Australia then came the RS then RS500. NONE OF THEM EVER HAD A PRODUCTION OR GROUP A RACING TWIN TURBO ENGINE.

    I got my info from wikipedia & FPV website, plus my industry knowledge.

  • Wheelnut

    Exactly; when you read back issues of Wheels or Motor [or even Street Machine] magazine dating back into the 60s you can get an idea; a feel as to what life in Australia was like at the time and see how tastes and cars had changed since then etc…. which is something you don’t get from New Car Buyer Magazine.

    You will also see that from both the articles and the letters the majority of people thought that Fords and Holdens weren’t the most unreliable poor quality cars ever to grace Australias roads as some on this site would like you to believe.

    Theyre just annoyed that Fords and Holden have won more COTY awards etc than Toyota – and the and they’re accusing us of being whingers?

  • Richo

    Wheelnut – didn’t you know that if a journo does a favourable reivew or gives an award to a car with a holden or ford badge on it then by default they must be on the payroll!

  • Richo

    also i remember a fairly famous reliability trail toyota put on with a bunch of journo’s at the launch of the last toyota corona. Drive it from melbourne to the northern territory they said, show australia how reliable our cars are! Well.. nearly every corona in the field blew a diff… toyota blamed a dodgy supplier, but then don’t they all?

  • Dlr1

    Dont you just love how the most mediocre cars generate the most discussion. nearly 200 posts supposedly about a Holden Epica. Yes its improved but its still mediocre.

  • Frank

    Face it Dingo, you’ve been owned.

  • Richo

    Toyota Motorsport – couldn’t help but noticed you stayed away from my comment about your F1 efforts!

    By the way, ever since about 2001 their has been no hard and fast rule as to eligability for entry into V8 supercars. You DO NOT have to make a RWD V8 production car, and you certainly don’t need to make 500 of them, you got that from sportscar racing you ignoramous, that rule was NEVER in force in V8 supercar. How could it be? Ever since 1999 holden has run a much bigger V8 then 5.0ltr’s!

    The only eligability rule is that the vehicle you use as a base had to be australian made, and even that rule was overturned at the start of this year! Toyota even heavily investigated going into V8supercar a few years back, so did mitsubishi. Toyota even built a full spec toyota avalon V8 supcercar as an evaluation vehicle. Toyota decided they wanted to go rallying instead (which infuriated subaru btw, which is why they are no longer involved in ARC) and in mitsubishi’s case, well they just went broke.

    But nevertheless, both the toyota camry, mitsubishi magna, toyota avalon, mitsubishi 380 and the toyota aurion all fit within V8 supercar eligability criteria and have done since the late 90′s because the only criteria was that it had to be an australian built car. Now even that rule doesn’t apply anymore.

    I suggest you get your facts straight before running your mouth on this topic. Tony Cochrane of V8 supercar has stated on many occasions that toyota are more then welcome to come and play, toyota chose rallying.

  • Richo

    also Toyota Motorsport, Tony Cochrane has been saying for a VERY long time that even if certain rules did prevent toyota or mitsubishi from entering, those rules would be reviewed. V8supercar recongnised quite some time ago that they needed more then just holden and ford in the series and have been actively pushing for a new manufacturer for quite some time, against ford and holden’s wishes mind you! Fact is toyota investigated, and decided against joining the series. SO DON’T BLAME V8SUPERCAR FOR YOUR PRECIOUS TOYOTA’S NOT BEING INVOLVED! It was toyota’s own decision to put their motorsport budget into australian rallying that prevented them joining the series, not V8supercar. As i said, your an ignoramous, you may know alot about NASCAR, but you know dick all about Australian motorsport, that has been made quite clear tonight!

  • Richo

    The REAL embaressment ofcourse for toyota fans is that toyota abandoned their enourmously successful WRC efforts in order to chase an F1 dream which, quite frankly, has proven too much for them!

  • Andrew M

    dingo,
    achieving parity doesnt happen over night.

    firstly they must decide what the problem is, and then decide on a fair measure to achieve it.

    how long did it take V8 supercars to end holdens late 90′s-early 00′s dominance by adjusting holdens front splitter so that it achieved the same balance as the design the ford teams were allowed to use??

    first the problem had to be recognised as a parity issue.
    then a solution had to be proposed.
    then the solution had to be tested.
    then teams had to be given the new rules to adjust to.

    a few years ago now, v8 supercars implemented “code blueprint” to ensure parity.
    now to avoid any disparity between any updated models, the new model must be signed off against the code blueprint structure before it is allowed to race.

    you could consider the nascar dominance of GM as the raising of the problem if you like.
    and now after nascar seeing the effects of one particular dominance, they are certain to not see it happen again.

    now as mentioned before, since toyota is the new comer, they have to see where they are at before any parity agreements are to be reached.

    is the dominant GM team you are talking about the very same one that now races toyota shells??? ;)

  • Richo

    The big issue with assessing the holden dominance in the late 90′s was trying to decide if it was actually a manufacturer advantage, or if it was just that one particular team, HRT, was just a much more professional and better funded and resourced team then everyone else. Indeed that was certainly the case in 1996-2002, then they started to get challenged a little bit. That’s where the big difficulty lay because if they hobbled the holden on account of what HRT where doing, what impact would that have on the lesser holden teams. It ofcourse would be unfair to give a heavily dissadvantaged car to the less well funded holden teams to try and equalise the ford teams against HRT.

  • Richo

    Toyota Motorsport says “Much like Nissan with the GTR … they beat the Local V8 lads at thier own game on thier own soil.”

    Using european rules! Your pretty good at twisting facts aren’t you! Where was nissan during group c? Well they where trying very hard, even got a pole at bathurst, but otherwise did nothing. How is that beating Australia at their own game? Group A was a european game, not an australian game, which was one of the principal reason why it didn’t work in Australia.

    Group A, which was the only format in Australian motorsport history that Nissan where competitive in (but it most definetly wasn’t the only catagory they TRIED to complete in) however it will go down in history that group a was the WORST period in Australian touring car history. V8 Supercar will go down resoundingly as the best, with Group C second mainly due to the spectacularness of them!

  • Richo

    and i’m sorry toyota man, but you have brought this on yourself. You constantly try and pass of your little tidbits as fact, yet you constantly get owned on them because you never CHECK your facts before you post them and you get proven WRONG. Whenver this happens ofcourse you just try and twist and wriggle your way out of it by twisitng facts, like trying to say that nissan beat holden and ford at their own game, despite the fact that group A was clearly NOT holden and fords game, it was the european game, not the australian game. CAMS made a very stupid decision in allowing Group A in in the first place, not least of which because it was massively more expensive then group A. Just ask Dick Johnson about it! He will tell you that Group A was the worst thing that ever happened to Australian motorsport, this despite the championship and bathurst he won under the format! Costs more then doubled and established stars of the sport where forced to dissapear. They still competed at Bathurst but the catagory was just too expensive to justify a full ATCC series and thats why it was basically Brocky and Johnson against Skaife and Richards in cars that had two extra driven wheels. REALLY fair formula don’t you think? But no ofcourse we got rid of it just to spite Nissan! GET REAL!

  • Richo

    Sorry, Johnson won TWO championships and a bathurst under Group A, and he still looks back on it as the worst period of Australian motorsport! What does that tell you? Don’t go there dingo! It’s not worth it because you’ll lose every time!

    And yes toyota have improved massively this season in F1, but not really any more then what redbull has as a PRIVATE team with a MUCH smaller budget.

  • Richo

    the ironic thing is that i actually like toyota (except the camry which i believe is the most overrated car in Australian motoring history). I even own a toyota, a 2007 hiace work van and i think its fantastic! I love the 78 landcruiser and i actually think the aurion would make a great family car, it just happens that its not the best family car. Toyota is a great car company. I just get annoyed with the toyota fans which appear to have the world’s biggest chip on their shoulder and feel the need to put everyone else down to try and make themselfs feel good about their love of toyota’s! Toyota fans are the biggest problem with this site, the ford and holden fans have their dissagreements but its the toyota fans which really cause problems around here!

  • Glen

    Dingo, I see you forgot to mention the reason for Toyota ARC “dominance” against privateers this season, NO OTHER MANUFACTURER SUPPORT. They pulled out 2 or 3 years ago because of Toyota’s bullying tactics to get things their way. They basically held the ARC to ransom saying they wanted something and if they didn’t they’d walk away. This display made Subaru, Mitsubishi and eventually Ford to pull out of the ARC because they were being unfairly treated. They even created a category just so Toyota could compete.

    Read this part carefully Dingo because I know you didn’t read before………..TOYOTA AND MITSUBISHI CAN BUILD RWD RACE ONLY CHASSIS FOR V8 SUPERCAR BUT CHOSE NOT TO. They built a AWD Corolla that didn’t exist. The Future Tourer Magna was RWD. It could be done, that rule was in affect in 1993 under Group 3A V8 Touring Car Rules. The 500 minimum number was for Group A before 1993. As far as I know there were not 500 EB Falcons with front poilers and rear wings about.

    Ok what about back in 2001 I think the Taurus NASCAR’s had their rear spoilers clipped. It shows that there is a parity system and it is always being reviewed. They obviously can’t do that now because the rear wings are all the same and are randomly given out by NASCAR at the start of each round.

  • Glen

    Ok Dingo I’ll challenge you. I’ve followed motorsport since I was 4, I know more than most so give it your best shot.

  • Richo

    Dingo, i’m not really affraid of you either, except i’m going to bed in 10 minutes so you’ll have to make it snappy

  • Richo

    although i do think its fairly pointless, because we have proven you wrong a number of times tonight and you are yet to prove us wrong, so don’t you think we have ALREADY proven that we know more about australian motorsport then you? I certainly do

  • Richo

    Presumably Toyota are a smart company wouldn’t you agree dingo? If they had to produce a RWD V8 to enter V8 supercar, dont you think that given they had no intention of doing so then they would never have bothered evaluating a toyota V8 supercar effort and certainly would never had produced a toyota avalon V8 supercar “mule”? Well my poor dingo, Thats exactly what toyota did! They had a VERY serious look at the catagory with AVESCO, as it was called at the time, fully supporting their interest! IT’S TOYOTA THAT DECIDED ENTERING THE SERIES AND INSTEAD DECIDED TO WRECK THE ARC! So don’t go blaming australian race fans, holdne, ford, V8 supercar Australia and whoever else you can think of for the fact that toyota are NOT involved in australia’s premier motorsport catagory! They are more then welcome to compete, Tony Cochrane has been on record for a very long time saying that they would welcome toyota’s involvement. Toyota aren’t involved because they where not convinced they would be successfull, whereas with the ARC they knew that the catagories administrators where weak and they could bend them to get their way, which is exactly what happened. Subaru pulled out in disgust, mitsubishi where still happy to compete but ran out of cash, and ford couldn’t see the point in competeing against an outfit that clearly had too much influence on the series administration

  • Richo

    and dingo nissan didn’t make a complete mockery of australian V8′s, they made a complete mockery of the group A regulations. Hence why the regulations failed WORLD WIDE! Group A didn’t just fail in Australia you fool, it failed WORLD WIDE! Infact Europe stopped using Group A BEFORE australia did! No one complained then that it was to get rid of the Nissan GTR. But as soon as Australia can’s group a, oh it must be to kill the GTR then! Forgetting about the fact that the manufacturer world wide INCLUDING NISSAN! where no longer willing to support the catagory! Australia had no choice but to can the catagory because within a few years their would have been no more group a homologated race cars to use in the series! THEY HAD TO CHANGE! but you just ignore all of this don’t you dingo, because it doesn’t suit your argument! You can’t twist this fact so you just skim over it and accuse us of passing this off as a “pathetic excuse” when clearly ITS WHAT BLOODY WELL HAPPENED YOU IDIOT! How can a fact be a “pathetic excuse”?

    In delving into Australia’s motorsport history Dingo you are clearly delving into an area in which your knowledge is extreemly limited. Just give up mate and stick to nascar which you actually have a good and respectable amount of knowledge in!

  • Richo

    Dingo i proved you wrong in the fact that you claim that V8 supercar regs state you need to produce 500 examples of a RWD V8 road car to be eligable in the series. THIS IS COMPLETELY FALSE! The only rule is that it has to be a 4 door sedan produced in australia. NO MENTION IS MADE THAT IT HAS TO BE A V8 OR RWD!

    You can’t accept this, but it doesn’t make it any less factual. Your just wrong! Accept it.

  • Richo

    and besides Dingo, if your so sure that the rules do discourage other entrants, why don’t you prove it? You can’t can you! You still haven’t answered me as to why toyota considered entering but decided against it. If the rules didn’t allow them in then why would they have wasted their time looking at it?

  • Richo

    there isn’t any point continueing this with you dingo. You refuse to see reason, you refuse to accept even the possibility that you may be wrong. You just keep covering the same ground over and over again and if any of us bring up evidence to the contray you just pass it off as “pathetic excuses” even though they are factual. Never heard of a factual “pathetic excuse” before. It’s either fact or its not. You have yet to prove anything other then you know alot about nascar, but nothing at all about V8 supercar. Your “knowledge” on V8 supercar is limited purely to what you think sounds about right, you don’t actually know anything real, and you certainly don’t understand the group 3a regulations that make no mention whatsoever of their needing to be a RWD V8 production car to gain entry. The only limiting factor is that it needs to be a 4 door sedan and produced in australia, a rule that was subsequently amended this year to just a 4 door sedan. Accept it Dingo, your wrong. But you won’t, hence why their is no point continueing this debate.

    i’m out

  • NO ONE LIKES CHEATING AND TOYOTA ARE MASTER CHEATERS

    Thomas79, TP and Dingo are the biggest losers of this century.. No real facts. just continuous repeated dribble..

  • http://aca Request To Car Advice : Please Supply Terms and Conditions For Participation On This Site

    Car Advice – i’m only gonna ask this once and i will be keeping a record of my request.

    Please supply your ‘Terms and Conditions’ for participation on this site.

    I’m sure i do not have to remind you that site administrators are legally bound to supply those conditions upon request.

    If you don’t, as per my dicussion with the telecommuncation ombudman – they can and will force that supply if neceassry and i will be requesting that.

    I have decided to record my conversations on this site as evidance (as i have been doing) so unless all other comments referring to the discussion is equally deleted, i will be lodging that compliant forward aswell and once i receive the Terms and Conditions, what i identify hasn’t been satisfied by yourselves and i will also be lodging that forward.

    If you believe you can waste my time, then think again because i am not going to put up with it any longer.

    If i don’t have those ‘Terms and Conditions’ by tomorrow then i will follow advice i have received.

  • http://aca Dingo

    Keep deleting Car Advice … i have a record of the entire lot and i will be using it once i recieve those ‘TERMS’

  • Glen

    So how exactly are you being disadvantaged Dingo? As far as I’m concened Alborz can do whatever he wants to HIS website. I’m sure any legal fees that you pay aren’t worth payin for. If you don’t like how your being treated here please feel free to leave. Thats what most adults would do.

  • Golfschwein

    Oooooooo, someone’s getting really stinky stinky! And it’s delicious!

    But sociopaths do this. Dropkick, since you’re busy recording your comments on this site, do make sure you supply the Telecommunications Ombudsman your completely insane drivel from Anzac Day, along with your sub-human contributions on the Landcruiser 70 series, Scion B and Mazda 6 posts.

    It’s only fair that he can see what a moron you are, along with the rest of the world.

    Have fun! And try not to stew too hard.

  • gees

    this will be good – dingo gets to demand that he has his way on someones web site – and according to him the government suports him – same govenment cant stop hate sites or porn sites or how to make bombs and kill people sites – BUT how dare any one delete the Toyota propaganda

    Dingo must be special or full of it

  • Glen

    Dingo its called common sense, use it for once. If you don’t like the way you are treated, leave, solves everyones problems in one simple step. If you don’t want to leave, sharpen up your act. Simple.

    But no I’m guessing your someone with too much free time on their hands and can think of nothing better to do than go of different forums and just stirring up trouble. And when the guy who runs a FREE site for people like US runs it how he seems fit you think your being treated unfairly and go and whinge to anybody who’s willing to listen. What would you do if the T&C come back saying “The administrator of this site reserves the right to delete posts and his/her discretion”.

    And what if you go through these channels, hows this going to help you? You’ll be paying legal fees for nothing except for spite. Its not like its costing you money and its your choice to come on here and post so stop whinge about them “wasting your time” because the only one wasting your time is yourself.

  • Richo

    Golfie, your right mate, he is a sociopath, and mentally ill. This is what happens when people take themselves too seriously! OMG I am beaing treated unfairly on an internet blog! How outrageous!

    Please dingo, get a life, your clearly a very lonely person, and probably quite depressed. Seek help, and I’m being serious here!

  • Richo

    Dingo – your not that stupid plumber I had who did a crap job and then declared all out war on me for refusing to pay due to the crap job, huffed and puffed and threatened to take me through the cleaners… but turned out to be nothing but hot air and disappeared? You sound EXACTLY the same… he was a giant nob head aswell

  • AC COBRA

    OMG, I can’t believe some people dig such a big hole’s, When you forget about talking about cars, keep flogging off American race rsults and cry about how we are treated on this site, have a bit of faith we all need to look at ourself’s occasionally and discover there is enough reality going around, you just need to grab a little..

  • Yianni

    [realcars Says:
    August 9th, 2008 at 6:45 pm

    Yes Yanni u better stick with Toyota.

    U know when it comes trade-in time the dealers will be knocking each other out to buy it off u and u could turn a profit on it especially if it has no klms on it!]

    I’ve never owned a Toyota mate.

    I’m amazed at how much attention an ordinary car like the Epica is getting? haha

    Cheers

  • Phill

    All Hail Richo,for bringing the facts and giving it to dingo.I think this new model epica is much better looker than the previos model,to bad the petrol engines didn’t get more torque.

  • Roddy

    This TD Epica is a really good thing, and a lot of vehicle for the money. $8000 more for a TD Mondeo?…I bet this thing sells once it has some advertising push behind it. I like how it looks, and after reading this review (and others), it apprently drives nice also.

    These inane postings after every article, however, are ruining what could potentially be a decent car website.
    225 posts before this one, and how many are on topic? Yet more Toyota dribble, and the usual predictable Daewoo spiel from the Ford (and Toyota) fans.
    enough, already

  • DKA

    You can’t polish a turd!

  • Richo

    Roddy’s post followed by DKA… pricelss

  • phillip

    So Anthony did you actually drive the Epica or just copy down what Holden’s own brochure says about it?

  • Bret

    Anti-spam word was “Daewoo”, sorry couldn’t resist a comment:
    Richo, but it IS a Daewoo. Even though the coprorate logo may have changed on the cheque book, the same Daewoo engineers did this one as the last one, and no amount of GM or Holden propaganda will ever change that.

    No I don’t like the styling, yes it has some cheap looking element to it, but I can’t comment on quality/drivability though.
    As said, typical Korean offering, cheap and full of kit (and nothing wrong with that), but probably lacking in real substance. Durability will tell with time, eventually when someone actualy buys one.

  • Kwozzie

    Epica,Captiva,Viva, and Barina.
    All re-badged woo hoo Daewoos!

    The reason I would not go near one!

  • Andrew M

    Richo,
    i agree with you RE holdens V8 dominance, but i wasnt going that far as it would have been wasted breath on dingo.

    thats what i was getting at in that they have to figure out whether it is a vehicle or team that holds an advantage. (hence what takes time)

    you arent quite correct in saying it was a HRT domnance. yes, mainly it was, but then it became the 6 car TWR empire advantage.
    the best thing they ever did was set down some solid lines regarding team ownership. unfortunately it was years too late.
    but oh well, they have it sorted now.

    did you hear the latest in teams being given 2 tyre choices??
    a grippy fast wearer and a not so grippy long wearer…..
    (hard and soft compounds)
    that would really add spice to the equation

    they are also apparently stock (shelf) tyres and not specificly designed ones

    its yet another way to cut costs and make for even more exciting racing.

    sounds like a great idea i say.

    now they just need a way to enable the mid to bottom pack runners to rise.

  • No Name

    Roddy – I totally agree mate. Come on Guys(Gals) stop buying into Dingos and Thomas79′s crap. You’re getting sucked in folks. He’s probably been drinking again and we know he can’t handle a pint.

    CA please delete all these irrelevant comments and perhaps post an article on racing!!!

  • Dean

    Great reviews throughout the motoring industry for the new Epica Diesel. This is the car Holden should have had from the start, now it should really worry Camry, and steal lots of fleet sales.
    Well done Holden.

  • I have been there

    Hey..Daewoo Haters…

    You guys should have visited Daewoo plant in South Korea…This plant is one of the most advanced auto manufacturing plants in the world…and Daewoo worker’s craftsmanship is second to none. Actually, their quality is as g good as Hyundai’s..

  • Glen

    Not the best endorsement there I have been there.

  • Richo

    Bret your wrong mate when you say that it’s the same old engineers who did the epica, because the chassis design work was actually done in australia by holden, and the engine, NVH and general refinement work was done by GM’s european engineers. Exactly the same setup as for the Captiva. So your actually wrong when you say its “same old daewoo”

    The only real daewoo conection is that the platform the epica (but not the captiva!) was built on is an old daewoo platform, and also its built in a daewoo manufacturing plants, however it IS one of the better plants in asia, and remember asia make a heck of alot of so called “prestige” euro cars too!

  • Richo

    Andrew M – yep i heard about the option tyre. Belive it or not the “grippy but short wearing” tyre is actually the old dunlop “qualifier” tyre from the pre-control tyre days! Thats why it has such a short peak performance range of only about 5 laps, instead of about 20 laps for the normal control tyre. However during those 5 laps the tyre is more then 1 second a lap faster then the control tyre!

    Thats why its such a cheap job for dunlop because its a tyre that actually dates back to 1997! lol Thats how intense the old V8 tyre wars between bridgestone, dunlop and yokohama was!

    And your right with the old TWR “evil empire” stuff, but the issue was still if you penalise the CAR rather then the team, then the less well funded holden teams like perkins, GRM et all would have been penalised too. It was a really tough situation and your right getting the team ownership stuff sorted out in combination with project blueprint was exactly what was needed

  • TP

    V8 Supercars….yaaaaaaawn

  • Glen

    Toyotas…….yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawn

  • Glen

    Richo that tyre from 1998 is not around anymore. The option tyre they’re thinking about introducing is a new type. Just to clarify

  • Richo

    Glen mate, as Andrew M said its an off the shelf tyre in order to reduce costs. I assure you its the old DP1 qualifiers

  • Richo

    sorry glen, its the D11 qualifier, not the DP1 lol, don’t know where i pulled that one from! Same tyre as from the old tyre wars days, the bridgestone qualifier was always better though!

  • Richo

    although the REALLY good bridgestone qualifier is rumored to have only ever been given to HRT… all other bridgestone teams had to contend with a slightly inferior tyre.. never proven ofcourse

  • Richo

    Sorry Glen i should clarify, the D11 qualifier is what PMM and 888 are testing later this month in order for dunlop and V8supercar to evaluate if it will be what they are after for the proposed option tyre. Nothing is set in concrete at this stage, so it is possible that dunlop will introduce a whole new tyre. However dunlop did sign a contract specifying the use of the current dunlop control tyre, so developing a whole new “option tyre” at considerable cost to dunlop would be against the original financial agreement and i would think it would take some convincing for dunlop to come to the party. It makes no difference to them at the end of the day, but it will cost them alot more… not a smart business decision. But just pulling the D11 qualifier off the shelf would make a smart decision.

    Anyway we’ll see what happens next year.

  • Glen

    Oh! Sorry I knew it was an off the shelf tyre but didn’t realise they were still producing that specific tyre because V8 tyres are unique. Considering the current tyre is a special hand made variant.

  • Richo

    yeah well apparently dunlop had still been making the old qualifier because team are not allowed to receive the race tyres outside of the normal race meeting allocation, and because they have to test with those tyres they are not willing to waste any. So for the ride car programs they use these old D11 qualifiers instead of the race tyres and thats why dunlop had still been manufacturing them, pretty much specifically for the ride car programs. Also some of the old touring car challenge guys (the gentleman racers running around in old VS and EL supercars) often use the D11′s aswell

  • Mike

    Hey lay off the old Camira engines (2 ltrs) I have a Camira which I purchased brand new in 1987 with the 2 ltr engine and it is still going today. I have the original engine in the car, still untouched and it has just clocked over 521000 klms. Still not blowing smoke or burning oil. I travel approx 600 klms a week in this car. I would buy another one if they still made them. In fact I think Holden should build a local medium sized car, something I’m sure would look better than any import we have on our roads now.

  • Bret

    Richo,
    Nice repeat of the corprate line, but minor suspension tweaks, new bush here, different shock there, is a far cry from a full re-engineering.
    Face it, the Epica IS a Daewoo. Designed by Daewoo, built by Deawoo, with only minor input from other arms of GM.

    Daewoo is owned by GM, so is Holden.
    I don’t see you refering to Commodore as GM, its always the HOLDEN Commodore, just as its a DEAWOO Epica.

    Captiva is no different. Its origins may come from an era of GM ownership, and I’m sure control and input from outside of Daewoo, but it is of Daewoo origin! (OK GM-Daewoo just to make you happy).

  • realcars

    Hi Mike I agree as u perhaps have already read I had the last Camira wagon as a company car for three years.

    We had a dozen of them at the depot with most clocking 120 -150klms before being traded. Not one repair or one prob only regular servicing out of the lot. They go and handle like a sports car to boot.

    The point being

  • realcars

    The point being shouldn’t write the Epica off because it is a Holden or Korean.

  • realcars

    Bret u need to get over this Korean thing!LOL

  • Golfschwein

    I worked at a company that had lots of them too, Realcars. You soon get to hear which cars have certain troubles. Our Camiras never seemed to have engine problems, but they regularly returned to depot on the back of a truck before mysteriously deciding to allow themselves to re-start. Dodgy Delco computers?

    Geminis – no problem. VL Commodores – no problem. VS & VT Commodores – rear main seal, generally, but mine was a total lemon. Camrys – head gaskets and 3rd gear synchros in the mid forty thousands.

    None of these things afflicted all cars, it was just a pattern that developed.

  • Fed up with this crap!

    Hey Car Advice guy’s,you need to clean up some of the crap that get written here, the article is about the Holden Epica not about the ego’s of these idiots.
    I’m going to have to find another car web site as this one has completely lost the plot!

  • Bret

    Realcars,
    Mate I don’t have a problem with Korea, nor have I stated that “it’s Daewoo it must be shite”.
    I’m just sick of the propaganda and denials about the cars real origins.

    And BTW, who was it claiming that the Prado was Hilux?? even though none of the critical dimensions even come close. Mate, the pots black.

  • Andrew M

    Richo,
    how do you know its the model tyre you speak of??

    they actually havent told the guys testing it what it actually is.
    they have removed markings for the testing process. there was a reason they didnt want the teams to know what it was.

    sure a good ole 2 and 2 measure might put you on the money, but how can you confirm your story…..

    and another thing you went further on in that HRT getting the better tyres,
    well the other improvement to the rules now see a totally random method of delivering tyres to teams.
    the tryes are pretty much drawn out of the hat nowdays which makes it hard for any “tyre rigging” to take place.

    yep,
    there was a lot of suss things going on in the HRT dominance days…….

    oh,
    and the proof of the un even aero performance could have been backed up by GRM and perkins actually taking race wins….
    that was the days of tander (GRM)
    and Ingall (Perkins)

    ambrose was actually the savior for ford.
    and to be honest, before that, they were struggling for talent on the ford side of things which could have also cntributed to not many wins.

    that was when Seton, Johnson, Crompton, Jones were all past it which was also late 90′s to early 00′s.

    and another thing was, they were all owner drivers and none had the business structure like TWR (6 cars) had.

    once the old timing ford teams realised you could not go racing to go racing, then ford has been better off.

  • Motorhead

    I drove some Epicas at the launch & I have to say apart from the diesel being somewhat punchier then I expected they are the worst car I have ever driven.
    The interior was incredibly cheap & nasty & for cars with only a handful of kays they squeaked & groaned a hell of a lot. The engine was more John Deere then modern diesel when it came to NVH & the steering & handling balance was very wonky.
    It definitely left me thinking it’s a car someone would drive because they had to not because they wanted to.

    The Daewoo Leganza was rubbish a decade ago & it is still rubbish with Dame Edna headlights & Holden badges, anyone who buys one of these compared to something like the Mondeo is truly mad.

  • Richo

    Hi Andrea, I got the model code D11 because that is what auto action, motorsport news and neil crompton at the last round of the championship said it was. All three sources are highly reputable and said that the tyre in question is the old D11 dunlop qualifier.

    Also back in the tyre war days it was only ever a rumor that bridgestone where giving HRT gun tyres, but i think it’s a rumor that was pretty widespread and most people in the know either believed it or wouldn’t have been surprised if it was true. Bridgestone where heavily in bed with HRT at the time from a marketing point of view so it made sense for Bridgestone to want to see HRT winning races over some of their other bridgestone teams.

    And your right in Craig Lowndes last championship win it was rusty ingall who pushed him to the line in a holden, and GT did the same thing also in a holden. But neither team had the level of dominance over the rival ford teams that HRT had. I think if you take HRT out the VT commodore and the AU falcon racecars where pretty evenly matched, and many believed at bathurst the AU was actually better because the front bar was a smoother through the air and the fords consistantly ran higher top speeds down conrod straight back in the AU days.

    Your also right that ford teams lagged behind the holden teams in terms of professionalism in the late 90′s untill SBR really started to kick goals in combination with ambrose who was VERY good at setting a car up. There is no surprise at all that SBR fell off badly when ambrose left the team because it was really ambrose’s setup skills that made the difference in both ambrose’s last championship win and ingall’s championship win.

  • Richo

    sorry andrew m, don’t know where andrea came from!

  • GhisGT

    Too bad if anybody actually wanted to take this site seriously!

    I was actually thinking the new revised Epica looks alright… but it’s wasted on these mindless social outcasts.

    Here’s an idea, everybody here that is putting dirt on a car THEY HAVE NEVER DRIVEN, how about you all eat a bowl of AIDS ridden d1cks?

  • Al Harris

    Motorhead – I\’ve also driven a Epica, but not this facelifted one but mechanically the same. Against its rivals it still has a long way to go even if its the cheapest. It\’s insulting for Holden to offer derivative trash when there are find cars like the Mazda 6 and Mondeo around.

  • Mike

    Tom, I hope the ML270 you’re buying is not the US-made model… The Rexton with the same engine is screwed together better than those things.

    This year’s Epica certainly appears to be a big improvement on the first model. Not as good as the Mondeo, but then the Ford product is significantly more expensive. I’m surprised no one has mentioned the Skoda Octavia (although it is somewhat smaller than either the Epica or the Mondeo). Both the Skoda and the Mondeo have a big big plus over the Epica in one respect, and that’s the availability of a hatchback (even if the Skoda is described as a “sedan” it’s actually a liftback).

    The Octavia has it all over both cars in the interior stakes. Why do carmakers insist on boring and heat-absorbing dark interiors for this country? The “build your car” pages at the manufacturers’ websites are a joke: no matter what exterior colour you chose you get a black or dark grey interior. Oh, wait, you can chose leather… oh, that’s black too. Stuuuupid.

  • Dindong

    I just bought a cdxi turbo diesel epica. It drives amazingly and the features along with the interior styling are great.

  • FrugalOne

    After all it still is a Holden.

    In other words, it’s still sh*t.

    Cheers

    F-O

  • http://www.sanabes.com Tahani Ahmad Almadan

    How much price 2010

    • Byron

      Epica CDX 2.5-litre petrol (6 speed auto) from $28,490
      • Epica CDX 2.0-litre diesel (6 speed auto) from $30,490
      • Epica CDXi 2.5-litre petrol (6 speed auto) from $31,490
      • Epica CDXi 2.0-litre diesel (6 speed auto) from 33,490
      • Epica CDXi Optional leather pack $2000

  • David

    I bought one! A 2010 Epica CDX Diesel & very happy with it. For under $26k drive-away it’s a bargain. Drives very well, comfortable & spacious. Great on the open road/freeways. And great economy too. Unfortunately, the Epica is overlooked by most potential buyers & I think they’re missing out. The comments in the road test are pretty much spot on as far as I’m concerned.