2008 Holden Sportwagon first steer
11 Jul, 2008
238 Comments 
Although Holden wouldn’t speculate on competitors in this segment, it’s quite clear that one of the main – if not only competitors – is the Chrysler 300C wagon. With most sales planned to be heading toward females, it will be interesting to see if the familiarity of a Commodore will sway buyers over American muscle.
We can also expect to see a HSV derivative of the Sportwagon in the near future. HSV is working on an R8 specced version of the Sportwagon to be sold alongside its range of V8 powered VE sedans.
Fuel consumption remains quite similar to the sedan range of vehicles. During the launch the recorded fuel consumption figures were very similar to the average figures quoted by Holden. Although it’s positive that the figures are accurate, more can still be done to bring these figures down to levels achieved by Toyota and Honda V6 engines.
Holden wouldn’t comment on future products, but rest assured that if a diesel or E85 motor is introduced, it will almost certainly make its way into Sportwagon.
Displacement on demand for the V8 range will also be introduced later in the year when the VE receives a refresh. Holden delayed introducing the fuel-saving technology because it wanted it to feature in the model refresh, opposed to the introduction of a single variant.
Safety features such as Electronic Stability Control, dual stage front driver and passenger airbags, side impact airbags for driver and front passenger and side curtain airbags are all standard fitment across the range.
All in all, Holden’s new Sportwagon is really a stellar family car. The increase of head room and radical styling will ensure it sings the right tune with the public. It won’t be long before every man and his dog gets their hands on a Sportwagon. In fact, even boss Mark Reuss has ordered a Sportwagon for his family – his wife wasn’t a big fan of the out-there Atomic colour though!
Click here to browse Holden Sportwagon Specifications and Features.
Click through for Holden Sportwagon Gallery….
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July 11th, 2008 at 12:08 am
*****PRIMO!*****
Looks good, if a bit to much like a hearse!
Good value too, only $1k more than a wagon.
LPG/BenchSeat?
Cheers,
F-0
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July 11th, 2008 at 12:29 am
Well, it looks OK but I doubt the private buyers will flock to it. I would have bought a VE Adventra if they were to make one (I did have a VZ LX6 for 3 years/120,000kms) especially if a diesel, but I have happily jumped ship to a Volvo XC70 Diesel.
Holden have a fair way to go for fit/finish and refinement in comparision. The VE is a big step forward from the VZ but is it enough ? Where is the electric tailgate option and useful features for families live built in rear booster seats ? Rear vision won’t be great with those thick rear pillars - where is the comment on that Paul ?
Yes, the Volvo is more expensive but I am averaging 8.5l/100km all the time which goes a fair way to make up the difference monthly…
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July 11th, 2008 at 1:19 am
Looks decent on the front 3 quarter view, but the straight side on view brings out the real issue with the look of this car, it is too rear heavy. The rear panel from the wheel back looks huge in comparison to the front and unbalances the whole look. Needs a bigger window at the back.
See the current Audi A6 and Subaru Liberty wagons to see how a good wagon proportion works. The big difference is the lack of a rising beltline like the Commodore.
The next model Commodore is going to have to shrink in order to survive into the future. Drag it down one size segment and lose 300kg.
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July 11th, 2008 at 1:20 am
hehe… adding to that comment that it looks like a hearse, it’d be a perfect hearse for a petrolhead…
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July 11th, 2008 at 1:22 am
Hearse Furgal- Honestly what are you on mate.Try Hondas FRV (UK) for a bench seat matey.
Certainly better looking than my vectra wagon. At last a decent wagon for you folks to bash around in. That will certainly steal some of Toyotas (No wagaons at all) sales.
GM bring this RWD thing to the UK please with a gurt big diesel in it.
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July 11th, 2008 at 2:38 am
Hmmm. Your right No Name. They should put a diesel in it and send it over at bargain prices. Then again, most of the UK would probably prefer the Insignia.
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July 11th, 2008 at 2:48 am
It looks beaut.
Wait for the update, I reckon. The base V6 with 4 speed has to be gone. Direct injection 3.2s or 3.6s with minimum 5 speed auto is what’s needed to stop Omega and Berlina being a laughing stock. Dedicated LPG and Turbo Diesels with 6 speed autos will bring even more folks in, along with the hybrids being worked on.
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July 11th, 2008 at 7:44 am
Looks OK, But quality control is still left to the customer. Ergonomics need to be improved too, steering wheel is still too big, cruise control needs to be moved off the indicator stalk to th steering wheel like evereyone else. Handbrake is still akward and some bits are just flimsy, try shaking the centre console. Holden still gunning for fashion over function.
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July 11th, 2008 at 8:16 am
gorgeous
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July 11th, 2008 at 8:20 am
No matter how good it looks doesn’t take away from the fact that it is still a Holden
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July 11th, 2008 at 8:34 am
Looks OK at certain angles. As for what you get, well GMH had a chance to introduce a LPG model and did not yet. I don’t believe it’s going to sell big time. Mr and Mrs average are struggling with their fuel bills and this car doesn’t make it any easier.
Everything look nice when you first buy it but after a couple of months it will just be a Commodore that uses a lot of petrol and is hard to park.
Please don’t get me wrong, I hope it’s going to be a great success.
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July 11th, 2008 at 8:45 am
Looks the goods. I’m surprised they didn’t launch it at the same time as the VE update though. It deserves to have the direct injection engines and better gearbox from the start. Current engine and 4 speed is a joke.
I hope it sells well though. Anything to stop the number of Mum’s in 4WD’s on the road is welcome.
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July 11th, 2008 at 9:01 am
Paul, the Alloy wheels on the Omega are mirrored from the sedan as well. The MY09 Omega sedan came with Alloys, body coloured exterior door handles and mirror scalps and the extra airbags. The only specification difference to the Sportwagon is the rear parking sensors on the wagon. Just thought I would bring it up. Realise when testing many vehicles of different makes a small detail like I mentioned is quite easy to do.
Cheers
Frosty
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July 11th, 2008 at 9:01 am
I have actually seen one on the road - I work near the Holden factory in Elizabeth - two went by one morning when I was driving to work - doing a lap around the ‘block’. Anyway - from the front - they looked just like a regular VE - it was only once I caught a view of the profile as I got closer and then past, that I realised they were the wagons. I guess that is a good thing?
Having had a day in the older VZ Adventra, I would hope the build quality has improved - the one I drove had only 50k on the clock, and already the glove-box had a huge gap showing, and there were various rattles from the back.
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July 11th, 2008 at 9:02 am
There is apparenlty a 3 month wait for the sportwagon.
I found from my local Holden Dealer that you can also get a Calais-V8 Wagon with 6 Speed Manual which wasn’t mentioned in the article.
Bavarian Missile was considering buying one However; she is now looking more closely at buying a Volvo V70 T-6 Wagon with AWD….Gonna need a bigger garage me thinks!
If or when Holden do release an AWD version I expect it will use either the same AWD system avaialble with the new Insignia [which will also be the basis for the New Torana] or the same AWDsystem as used by the Saab 9-X cross-over [which is similar to Subaru]
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July 11th, 2008 at 9:21 am
No LPG???……NO THANKS!!!!
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July 11th, 2008 at 9:22 am
In terms of how a car performs etc “Australian New Car Buyer” is as respectable and reliable as a resource as “Unique Cars” is for the value of cars… which if I recall you or one of your fellpw Toyo-philes criticised on a previous blog.
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July 11th, 2008 at 9:23 am
How the hell did the VE Commodore win Wheels Car of the Year anyway?
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July 11th, 2008 at 9:28 am
The other thing is that Holden tend to use the R&D prototypes [mules] as media vehicles when the car is released so the engines etc are looser and the cars have more ks under their tyres….Whereas Ford use actual production cars which are yet to be broken in.
Which could explain why in the majority of tests in magazines such as Wheels and Motor overall the Holden does better > often wins as its more free revving etc..
[despite the old 4 speed auto].
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July 11th, 2008 at 9:32 am
Problem is there are so many people expecting “Champagne” quality - performance features specifications etc on a “Coca-Cola” budget.
The quality might not be that good but you get what you pay for, Either way its definitely much better than a 300C
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July 11th, 2008 at 9:35 am
Wheelnut:
That’s not accurate information.
R&D cars are not put on press fleets. Press fleet vehicles are normal production vehicles which are run in to around 700km and then handed over to the media.
Unless you are driving a pre-production model, you are getting a proper car that has made it off the production line.
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July 11th, 2008 at 9:46 am
Carl, dedicated LPG is on its way very soon. Along with Turbo diesel V6, Holden are also getting other hybrid and other fuel technology.
Luke GT and other Ford fans complain if Holden fans critisize the Falcon and yet do exactly that to the Holden. Having driven a FG for a week while interstate with work I can assure you the FG has many faults that would definately not make Falcon fans happy.
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July 11th, 2008 at 9:52 am
I referered to you or one of other [3] Toyo-philes - as you often generalise by refering to us who aren;t as big as Toyota fans as you; as the Circus.
I have since re-visited the other blog to find that it was Oh What A Feeling who made the comment about the reliability of Unique Cars as a resource and therefore I apologise to you..
I also noticed on that particular blog you Toyo-philes are talking among yourselves not actually talking about toyota [for a change] but continue to criticise Holden and Ford.
Which is ironic because just yesterday Oh What A Feeling
asked Us to stay on Topic.
Yet the point is New Car Buyer is about as reliable respectable as Unique Cars as well as the local Newspaper
As for making a mess of us - Whatever!… the mere fact that you Toyo-philes are often the first to resort to personal insults and offensive language indicates that you are either starting to lose or have already lost the fight.
Remember the japanese proverb he who throws the first punch has lost.
However; Those who run CA like to try and keep things on Topic so can you and the other Toyo-philes try not to hi-jack this blog as you have in the past.
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July 11th, 2008 at 10:05 am
My mates at the Holden Factory have told me that on the odd occassion Prototypes [which are close to 95% production ready] were used for reviews as at the time there weren’t enough production cars available..
The same reason as to why Holden only supplied ANCrAp with 4 cars for the crash tests - just after the VE Sedan was released.
However; this morning I drove past the Holden Factory and there are appears to be a reasonable number of Sportwagons awaiting delivery - given that there is apparently a 3-4 month wait for them ATM
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July 11th, 2008 at 10:15 am
Frosty…..good to hear the LPG is on it’s way, Lets hope the hybrid is LPG powered as well!!!
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July 11th, 2008 at 10:16 am
I didn’t admit Commodores ar poor quality - the fact there are so many more 20+ year old Commodores and other Holdens still on the roads as compared to Toyotas of the same age proves otherwise.
My point was that even though some people think that the quality isn’t that good.. you get what you pay for.
which is why i made the comment there are os many people [like yourself] who want champagne quality on a coca-cola budget
When you take into account the size of the Australian market compared to overseas and the amount of resources available to build the VE…. Holden have done a good job at providing Australians with a family sized car with various features such as ESP ABS Side Airbags etc which was once only found on more expensive euro imports for 30-40K..
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July 11th, 2008 at 10:18 am
Well just as we mentioned yesterday Dingo does take over Holden blogs with Toyota dribble………yawn
Toyota could learn a lot from Holden in the design department this is a hot looking wagon in any ones eyes around the world. Toyota dont come close with anything this stylish in wagons or sedans for that matter!
Bloody nice ,well done GMH……….
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July 11th, 2008 at 10:20 am
Frosty………..you are an idiot. The FG is streets ahead of Holden and Toyota in build quality and reliability.
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July 11th, 2008 at 10:25 am
QUOTE {LukeGT]: good … you have admitted Commodores are poor quality, now stop talking about them as they are amoung the poorest quality and most unreliable vehicles that have ever graced Australian roads and remain no different today.
In case you haven’t noticed - the topic of this particular blog is the VE Sportwagon which funnily enough is based on a Holden Commodore… and as I intend to stay on topic [as i always do] it will be virtually impossible for me to make a comment without referring to Holden or Commodore
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July 11th, 2008 at 10:28 am
Please TRY to stay on topic!
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July 11th, 2008 at 10:37 am
QUOTE [Supercujo]: How the hell did the VE Commodore win Wheels Car of the Year anyway?
Doesn’t matter how it won; the fact remains that it did… in the same way that ATM Toyota are Number 1 despite producing some of the most bland boring cars around….GET OVER IT!!!!
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July 11th, 2008 at 10:37 am
Does anyone know any of the details on the diesel that is to be fitted to the Sportwagon/Sedan?
The Sportwagon may not be perfect, but it does look good and if the Diesel and LPG models are decent performers and have good economy figures I don’t think you will get much better for your money.
Some people have unrealistic expectations of the old Conformadore. To quote Wheelnut “Champagne quality - performance features specifications etc on a Coca-Cola budget”
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July 11th, 2008 at 10:49 am
Well atleast the luxury versions like the calais caprice senator and grange use real pressed alluminium fittings in the interior unlike the fg which uses fake plastic.
Have you read the lastest motor magazine the senator is a much better car and than a gt-e (yes the ve is 2 years outdated), and the thing is with the gt-e it has basically the same crap leather seats as a g6e, saggy crap not even luxury sport (and they suck according to motor) and guess what it does even have electric seast for the front passenger and it costs 77 grand (”luxury car”) grand the seantor on the other hand has 8 way electic seats and 3 posistion memory for both fron passengers, top quality leather seats as quoted; “The front seats give great support and look expensive, replete with alcantara inserts and neatly exposed stitching. But the sculpted rear bench is a stand out - offering almost as much support as it does up front providing good visibility”. ” the most cohesive interior of the trio, the senator feels a class above the others.
Yes the gt-e does not even offer flat blade rain sensing wipers and it costs 77 grand “luxury car” atleast put the sat-nav in for free. It also has some fake brown wood like plastic trim unlike the ve senator which the door is almost 100% leather and stiching unlike the fg which is mostly full of plastic on the door trims.
Hey Paul Maric i was wondering if you have a croatian heritage?. But You did something wrong in your review the omega sedan does come with 16″ alloys just like the wagon and 6 airbags standard (early ve update this year) the only differnce with the sportwagon that it has rear parking sensors standard.
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July 11th, 2008 at 10:59 am
Dingo Toyota don’t make anything to compete against the Sportswagon,its only competitor is the 300c {that I thought is being phased out in Australia}I would take the Sportswagon any day!
Dingo not all people that buy cars look or care about reliability surveys most will look for appearance first if they enjoy cars, performance second,this wagon passes both credentials extremely well.
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July 11th, 2008 at 11:06 am
Wrong Luke, you thing ford are perfect when they are not firstly have you even bothered like up problems with fords?
Can I show the interior OF A AU FALCON THE WORST IN MODERN HISTORY, well i can asure you it looks like crap, to be honest the seats look like they have come off a small car as the are so small thin and crap quality. the rear is just as bad thin crap material of a laser.
Why does a bf xt look almost identical to a bf which is fact put to pictures together, the even have the same hubcaps dating back to the au and the front bumber is identical, Uneducated people buying a new car will not know the differnce between the two so they wont buy it yes ford falcon will not be top seller again. Even a outdated ve has better lines road pressence than a fg which is a stated fact by many journalists, remeber the fairlane only sold one car in one month is that a disgrace or what? Yes ford gave it the axe
I can assure you toyota and GM are a much better than ford. It seems like luke likes crap gt’s yes the ba gt had a 5 speed manual and it was slow 6.3 to 100 even the 300kw gts 300 vt series 2 which was the fastest sedan in the world in 99, as it achived 0-100 in 5.1 eventually overtaken in 2002 by the mercedes e55 amg v8 supercharged.
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July 11th, 2008 at 11:13 am
This is a very nice looking vehicle. With the spec levels mimicking the sedan, it’s very unique! Though, with fuel prices etc. going up and the thirsty V6 & V8’s, along with the popular (but atrocious) 4spd auto, how is this practical? Take A BF MkIII E-gas for instance. Ok, it might not be as euro inspired as the FG & VE design-wise, but it is waaaaaay bigger inside for the family, luggage etc., has better fuel consumption and costs a hell of a lot less to fill up even! Sorry, but if I was in the market for a aussie-built wagon, the BF MkIII would be getting my $$$.
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July 11th, 2008 at 11:17 am
Luke is a idiot “PERIOD” acts like a litle 5 year old loser who things ford are the best, who can talk about toyota but not how successful ford is world wide? GM are second for just two years mate, gm have been sales leader for 77 years, what about ford, dont talk about toyota which is just in front at the moment
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July 11th, 2008 at 11:32 am
Thats why falcons are worth nothing today (depriciation) because of AUSTRALAIS WORST PRODUCTION CAR THE AU FALCON which had much more issues than the ve as did the ba and bf just look up some reviews of the falcon at drive. Luke whatever you say about the ve, carnt take away the fact that it has been successful as opposed to ford wheels car of the year nominated for world car of the year will the fg be nominated? exported everywhere unlike the falcon, will it be ever exported????????. Don’t talk about toyota being number 1 because everytime there is a toyota article you just talk shit again and criticise. Has Ford ever been number 1 car manufacturer, talk to me when the falcon is the number seller in australia and the number 1 car manufacturer in the world, im sorry i dont think it will happen. Now stop changing the topic you little shit EVERYTIME THERES A HOLDEN POST HE DOES NOT SHUTUP AS HE IS ANTI-HOLDEN AND HAS NO RESPECT FOR THE COMPANY WHICH HAS BEEN MORE SUCCESFUL THAN FORD, this post is about the new sportwagon GET OUT DONT TALK YOUR IRRELEVANT!
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July 11th, 2008 at 11:35 am
Car 1 … Only thing Ford is ahead in is debt. Yes that right debt and GM is right behind. If the cars produced by these companies were that good, why are they not making money. Simple fact that most of you day dreamers do not understand is GM and Ford make crap cars and market it to people who seem to fall for it everytime.
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July 11th, 2008 at 11:58 am
at least ford had the guts to put a bit of style into the au falcon although people werent ready for it.For the price the ford is a much better car.Thw intereior also doent look like its been ripped out of some anyomous car of the 90s its like 2 different teams designed the VE .The sportswagon looks way better than the sedan and will probably steal sales from the terriotiy and kluger.I also hate toyota yet they do have the absollute most reliable cars.
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July 11th, 2008 at 12:03 pm
The VE sedan gained alloy wheels back in March 2008 along with 6 air bags, a chrome grille, and body-coloured door handles and mirrors. The article ought to be updated.
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July 11th, 2008 at 12:06 pm
another holden lemon i will give it 12 months before it to is dicontinued!!!!!!!!
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July 11th, 2008 at 12:07 pm
Also I forgot to add it gained air conditioning in March 2008 as well.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holden_VE_Commodore
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holden_Commodore
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July 11th, 2008 at 12:28 pm
Quote [Luke GT]: Wheelnut - there are more aged Commodores on the road becuase they sold more.
That’s true they did sell more Commodores [and other Holdens] than Toyotas…
However; if the quality of the Commodores [and other Holdens] is/was as bad as you would like to believe/think it is…. then surely wouldn’t the majority of all those hundreds of thousands of Commodore [and other Holdens] have fallen apart been written off or scrapped etc? - Think about it!
The fact that they’re not and there are still so many Old Holdens around and [which BTW are more sort after by car enthusiasts and street machiners for restoration projects etc. Than Toyotas] means that they are quality/reliable cars that are built to last
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July 11th, 2008 at 12:35 pm
why don’t you blokes go off someone who has actually driven the bloody thing! His final comment was that it is a stellar family car that everyone is going to want to have. Unless you have actually driven one then pull your head in cos you don’t know what your talking about and your just going off your own personal opinions and prejudices, as well as a heft dose of ignorance!
This is a good family car, nothing particularly flashy, but if your a family man who cant afford to have a family car AND a performance car, then surely even you euro fans can’t deny that an SS sportswagon would be a good solution.
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July 11th, 2008 at 12:37 pm
and from a purely styling point of view, the minor modifications holden has made to the VE’s interiors make it look quite good actually! and yes, the metal finishes are actually metal in the holdens! unlike the FG which are painted plastic. Don’t believe me? go down to a holden dealership and have a look, they are really metal i promise you!
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July 11th, 2008 at 12:42 pm
VW were/are reportedly in a worse financial situation than Ford and GM combined. Which could explain why they were taken over by Porsche… Yet no one mentions that
VW go too big too quickly and lost focus of their “bread and butter” market.. [whereas Porsche never have] as a result VW are having to streamline their range and have cars which share more components etc
The same way GM and Ford did - but they are now undertaking plans to resolve the situation as well.
Which brings us to Toyota - trying to enter so many new markets with a range of new vehicles to compete against more established companies…
In some cases they have similar cars competing against other Toyota products [like Ford GM and VW] which could mean that one day The Big T could be in a similar financial situation to what GM Ford and VW are/were
particularly if they keep sinking millions of dollars into F1 with very little return
Inorder to succeed in business you should try to find a “niche” market and focus on what you are good at and not try to be everything to everyone.
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July 11th, 2008 at 12:46 pm
And before you go off yet again Luke GT You should note I said
Toyota COULD find themselves in a similar situation to what Ford GM and VW are/were
NOT
Toyota WILL find themselves in a similar situation to what Ford GM and VW are/were
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July 11th, 2008 at 12:48 pm
Well said Richo..I only said to Wheelnut this morning “do these people even read the write ups on the cars or just pass judgment on their own personal opinion of the make?
The Holden Ford debate has and always will be full of personal preference and opinions.However a real car enthusiasts can see that both cars are good just different in their own ways being on this site for over 12 months has taught me to appreciate that! If jernos were like some of the die hard one brand lovers on this site we would never hear the true account of what or how a car test drives,do any of you respect what the jernos have to say on the car or are you in denial that it could actuality be a great car no matter what your opinion!
And before you come back at me Dingo for running down Toyota I like most people jeros included think Toyotas are boring I am not taking away from the fact they make reliable cars,just not passionate cars.
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July 11th, 2008 at 12:49 pm
you are right richo every family should buy one at say $40,000 keep it till they are discontinued due to poor sales and then they will be worth $15,000 if you are lucky! just like the adventra wagon!why do holden bother!
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July 11th, 2008 at 12:52 pm
Straight forward I am a Holden man through and through. As for the VE Commodore what and amazing piece of engineering, its a excellent car, I am in the car seen with clubs and car shows, the people that have got there VE’s are very happy with everything. About the only comment people make is the colours GMH bring out are not fantastic. Now for the new Ford i must say they are still hit with the ugly stick, the only bit I like of the FG is the front as it looks a bit Aston Martin. Now Toyota have alway thought that they are good on reliability, which is true, but again the looks are not appealing at all.
I think the VE Commodore and the Sportswagon are going to do really well in sales. And if the people I have spoken to that are waiting on there orders, must mean that GMH have got a lot of orders. Good on them well deserved. Holden Commodore the best and always will be.
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July 11th, 2008 at 1:08 pm
Looks are what draws you to not only a car but also your parner.
When you see a particular car either on the road or in a showroom - If you like the way it looks you will want to walk up to it for an even closer look.
You then look in the window to check out the interior… you then open the door and if the interior looks inviting it will make you want to take a seat.. to see how it feels
When you take a seat you then grab the steering wheel and if you feel comfortable the next thing you will want to do is start it up… to see how it sounds
If it sounds good the next step is to take it for a test drive to see how it handles.. then if you’re impressed by the performance chances are you will strongly consider buying one
Which goes to show just how important Looks can be
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July 11th, 2008 at 1:13 pm
Car 1, you have no right to call me a idiot, I have driven a FG and it is far from good considering its the newest of the lot. Yes it is probably the best in the eyes of most people at the moment but that will change very soon with the direct injection V6 just around the corner along with new transmissions. Also the dedicated LPG Commodore will absolutely kill the Falcons when its found that there will be absolutely no difference in specs to the petrol version apart from the obvious LPG benefits. Also with Turbo Diesel V6 and Displacement on Demand and other changes due inside 12 months for some and 24 months for others the Falcon will very quickly fall away and I mean very quickly. You really do need to grow up quickly before you get left behind also Car 1. The bias and jealousy will kill you. The difference between you and I is I realise the Commodore is 2 years older than the Falcon and yet the Falcon is one model more advanced than the VE due to the Awfully Ugly (AU) Falcons failure and the BA being brought foward. The VF will totally change in a good way the average family sedan and with this Falcon most likely being Australia’s last unless they get a export program going the future is a lot more bright for Holden in Australia. By the way the Commodore’s A Piller design will be changing also by 2010 at the latest and images have already been circulated about that going back as far as last year.
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July 11th, 2008 at 1:20 pm
Does anyone know any of the details on the diesel that is to be fitted to the Sportwagon/Sedan?
Jimbo
The Turbo Diesel is said to be a 3.0ltr V6 VM Monteri. A larger V6 version and more modern of course of the 2.0ltr 4 cylinder unit in the Captiva. A very good motor indeed.
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July 11th, 2008 at 1:22 pm
Frosty,
I would be keen to hear how Holden are going to change the A-Pillar, given that it is a major structural componant and the Re-Tooling costs would be significant.
Let alone crash testing it if there are any changes to the steel frame.
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July 11th, 2008 at 1:41 pm
Burt have you noticed everyone is ignoring you? Even other Ford fans. The Sportwagon will be around a lot longer that the Falcon Wagon and will be a winner and will put Commodore back of top of as sales. Already a 3 month waiting list even before those who don’t read the car articles in papers and on the net have a idea that there actually is going to be a new Commodore Wagon. Oce all Australia knows about it watch that 3 month wait get longer unless they add another shift to build more every day.
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July 11th, 2008 at 1:46 pm
Guess what I just found an interesting and article on www.themotorreport.com.au which states that various Toyota badges are actually made by GM… there are photos of them in sealed plastic bags with the Genuine GM Parts logos on them with official GM Part Numbers etc.
That;’s right you can buy badges for one of the worlds largest manufacturers from their biggest rival
I know its off topic but because it was just so funny that I thought I had to share it
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July 11th, 2008 at 1:51 pm
Alec, Its not really as hard as you make out it to be as even a small front window infront of the mirror. I am not saying they will do that but the fact is that it can be done and Holden have admitted the A Pillers are a problem and that there will be a change to it sooner than most will think. As mentioned and even I saw it, is that there have been reports the A Piller will be different soon and possibly the VF due out within the next 2 years. Not as difficult as you would think as long as it doesn’t affect the rigidness its fine (Stronger materials used)
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July 11th, 2008 at 1:57 pm
how can anyone say that the falocon look like it was hit with the ugly stick.I mistook an G6E for something german.Just because it sdoesmt look/make you look like a hoons car or bogan-mobile.Also the commodore is stuffed.2 years ago holden could have launched with deisel and dedicated LPG but no they didnt.FOrd is now stuffing around wioht diesel when i here that they could get the XF diesel and put it in.The mondeo wagon will eventually win due to euro looks and a diesel and good [ i think resale]
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July 11th, 2008 at 2:02 pm
also frosty adding a thrird shift is stupid that is how resale is ruined.Its better for there to be a demand than hundreds on lots
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July 11th, 2008 at 2:04 pm
Frosty,
mate, you got no idea what you are talking about.
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July 11th, 2008 at 2:05 pm
Jesus christ, somebody put that Luke GT in a blender and turn it on.
Nothing but a shi7 stirring moron who is hell bent on ruining every article on this website.
Well done retard, you have done it again. Go make savoury love to a Prius.
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July 11th, 2008 at 2:07 pm
Senator, you are deluded buddy…
The HSV Senator has a 6.2l V8!!!! FPV GT-E 5.4l V8.. Think about the difference in capacity firstly.
The Senator did not win the comparison by much. Holden does not win any comparisions where it matters most: SV6 v XR6, Berlina v G6 etc…
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July 11th, 2008 at 2:11 pm
O - bigger picture mate, holden will have to eventually put a third shift on due to exports. It takes 3 months to get a car from australia to the US or the middle east, holden’s two biggest markets outside of australia, so if supply becomes too limited in these markets, buyers will start going elsewhere which leaves holden with less sales. The third shift won’t be for Australia, it will be for exports
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July 11th, 2008 at 2:16 pm
one way to improve visibility of any car in terms of the A-Pillar would be similar to the one featured on the Aussie Built “Axcess” Concept car a decade or so ago.
From memory: The A pillar was curved slightly to match the profile of the front windscreen and side windows..
However; the middle of the A pillar had a piece of perspex or toughened glass in it inorder to reduce the blind spot yet still maintain structural rigidity
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July 11th, 2008 at 2:16 pm
hey AXE, the V8 in the ford was designed for light commercial (truck) applications. Ford just put a DOHC head from a mustang onto it. The V8 in the HSV on the other hand was designed from the outset to be a performance car engine. No surprise then really that the HSV revs a heck of alot harder then the ford and is generally just a better engine. Ford’s performance market is the XR6 turbo, not the V8. Even the die hard ford fans (except you obviously) concede that the V8 in the falcon really isn’t much chop.
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July 11th, 2008 at 2:18 pm
also enough of this pushrods are ancient dinosaur stuff… the DOHC head has been around since the 1920’s for goodness sakes! Hardly state of the art! The benefit of DOHC is greater efficiency, however the benefit of pushrods is the engine can be made significantly more compact and more light weight. A reason why the big DOHC lump in the ford gives the falcon a very nose heavy feel, a problem not evident in the commodore
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July 11th, 2008 at 2:19 pm
The other alternative is to have a windscreen similar to that on the od FB-EK Holdens [of which there are still a fair few around proving how good Holdens build quality is]
The front windscreen of the FB-EK was more of a wraparound windscreen where it went beyond where the A pillar would be instead the A pillar was more upright and a bit further back where it matched up to the doors
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July 11th, 2008 at 2:38 pm
[of which there are still a fair few around proving how good Holdens build quality “WAS”]
Fixed
also it looks NOTHING like a hearse, hearse’s have LONGER backs than a usual wagon!
This looks like an astra HATCH with an over elongated nose.
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July 11th, 2008 at 2:40 pm
Ps
and the new nose on the calais and base model, make it look more like a BA falcon than ever.
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July 11th, 2008 at 2:47 pm
ghisgt it seems to me lukegt know’s a lot more than you do about motor industry matters i have not seen a intelligent word from any of your blogs just rubbish and bagging!
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July 11th, 2008 at 3:06 pm
no ones listening burt
T - the calais nose hasn’t changed at all since the VE’s launch! And all they did to the omega was put a bit of chrome in the grille, something that was never in a BA grille. So what the hell are you smoking?
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July 11th, 2008 at 3:07 pm
Spot on Burt!!
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July 11th, 2008 at 3:08 pm
Wow nice looking wagon - very german looking
As for all the above comments / Must be school holidays and all the little know it all nothings are feeling important.
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July 11th, 2008 at 3:30 pm
Toyota this… blah blah blah
Do you hear that?
Silence…
No once cares
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July 11th, 2008 at 3:33 pm
What about this people evrybody should ignore Dingo.
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July 11th, 2008 at 3:38 pm
Cant see this so called wagon doing very well really. Looks ok but the practicality compared to say a Terrirory is way behind. The very small load area in such a large car defeats the purpose of a wagon in the first place. Fuel consumption of the VE is the worst in the large car segment and poor quality is a common thing with Commodores. Will only steal sales from VE sedans but not other makes as only Holden bogans will buy them. Sales of VE will continue to slide. Holden was the biggest loser of sales in the last 12 months so expect them to cut V8 supercar funding in the near future as well. Those huge wheel arches dont help the look either, they look great on the Statesman because it is longer.
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July 11th, 2008 at 3:41 pm
As for the wagon it looks great. Even the base model wagon the Omega. Though one thing is that the back of a Omega, Berlina and Calais Sportswagon look to similar and that’s a bit of a shame. But other than that it looks great!
And being that the Sportswagon is only $1000 over the sedan equivelant, I believe the Sportswagon will appeal to heaps of people and outsell the VE Sedan possibly.
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July 11th, 2008 at 3:41 pm
Holden and non Toyota and non Ford fans remember to hijack their next release. I remember someone being told off for mentioning bad things about the FG Falcon but these same people telling off a Holden fan are doing exactly the same thing. Well as the Ford person said I will say to them. P off. This is a discussion by Holden people on the Sportwagon. Go back through the stories and talk about your car on the Falcon report. Its not that far back. Holden are onto a winner here and will definately need to incorporate a third shift to keep the demand up for here and the overseas markets, maybe those Ford employees put off at Geelong should apply for positions at Holden which no doubt will be needed before too long. Yes you will need to move interstate but at least there is more security there at Holden than there is at Ford. Ex Mitsubishi employees should also send in their curiculum Vitae.
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July 11th, 2008 at 3:45 pm
ghisgt see that’s what i said you know nothing but insult’s! try and be intellegent for once and say something worth saying!
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July 11th, 2008 at 3:46 pm
Why don’t u fark off Lukegt u are as repetitious and as boring as the cars u endorse.
Toyota don’t have anything that drives as good as a Commodore
SO FARK OFF.
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July 11th, 2008 at 3:46 pm
“Will only steal sales from VE sedans but not other makes as only Holden bogans will buy them.”
Car 1, no way I can put it but you are a tool! The car is for practicallity for families and not all families are holden fans and the car will suit families and may well sway them from the more bigger fuel guzzler crap off road ability the Territory.
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July 11th, 2008 at 3:48 pm
I think a lot of people forget that Ford & Holden both decided about 8 years ago that they no longer wanted to target Fleet Buyers like they had for all previous models.
Instead aimimng for more private buyers. This decision can is reflected in their models line ups.
While this is not the only reason for declining sales, it is a significant one, right after fuel economy.
Toyota’s reign as the Company selling the most vehicles each year isn’t just due to its image of reliabilty but a combination of factors.
One of those was Ford’s innefiecient marketing of the shift to the ‘new’ focus name from laser (the previous small car king) confused buyers & would have no doubt provided Toyota with a sales boost to the well known corolla name.
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July 11th, 2008 at 3:48 pm
Good one Realcars!
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July 11th, 2008 at 3:50 pm
Know a bloke who prefers to drive his 200,000klm plus VS to his Kluger because it goes better!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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July 11th, 2008 at 3:51 pm
So another thread wrecked by Dingo and his disciples……….seems Burt and Tomas have had their 2 cents worth {as informative as it was listening to their OPINIONS only,gee you guys bring so much into a thread don’t you, so much fact!} just waiting for the third disciple TP to really destroy the post…………
As we have mentioned this is a hot looking car performance wagon at an affordable price,clearly even Paul Maric thought so but I doubt you read the report,you both just want to argue the point with baseless facts to back up your arguments,Tomas seems he cant stand on his own two feet with out standing in someones shadow I guess he’ll comment more when Dingo returns so hes got a skirt to stand behind!
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July 11th, 2008 at 3:55 pm
If the dramas associated with the VE or any other commodore for that matter were as prevailent or as widespread as you like to think they are.. then surely the Commodore and even holden for that matter would have ceased production years ago.
Yes there have been a number of problems with the commodore However; the fact that Holden are in business they are still making the commodore and there are still people buying them indicates that either
The problems experienced with the VE aren’t really that major and only affected a very small % of cars given the total number shown
It’s like the ANCrAP tests they don’t actually test the safety of the model car; more the safet of 5 individual cars of that particular model
What I’m saying is that sure Motor Magazine may have experienced problems with an oil leak or brake fade… However that doesn’t necessarily mean it affects each and every other Holden commodore… most logical people would understand this as the chances of it affecting every car made are less than 5%
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July 11th, 2008 at 3:55 pm
Kluger puts out 172kws BUT THATS AT 10,000 RPM!!!!!!!!!!
His VS is a more relaxing drive because when he needs to go it just goes better doesn’t have to redline before it gets moving. Fuel consumption the old well worn VS is brilliant makes his Kluger look like a guzzler. His words not mine.
LUKEGT u like most Toyota buyers wouldn’t know if someone was up u unless they coughed.
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July 11th, 2008 at 3:55 pm
Realcars why dont you talk him into the new Sportswagon and ditch the Kluger…………….best of both worlds ,performance and space!
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July 11th, 2008 at 3:57 pm
Frosty, the purpose of this forum is to discuss varying views (be it positive or negative )a particular car!!
If you wanna live in a fantasy world, and get hugs a pats on the back from other holden enthusiast, with out being subjected to cold hard truth. Go to a Holden only forum!!
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July 11th, 2008 at 3:58 pm
hahaha…..10,000 rpm……….
Oh and Dingo if you think Holden only have 2 cars that we can be passionate about thats 2 more than Toyota make!
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July 11th, 2008 at 4:25 pm
Bavarian Missile, WTF have i got to do with this story??
Please Stop hijacking every post you come across!! Keep on subject, or dont bother!!
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July 11th, 2008 at 4:25 pm
Stay on topic
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July 11th, 2008 at 4:28 pm
Considering the VE was mainly conceived for Australian consumption and by AUSTRALIANS!!!! I think it is a mighty effort for our small populous.
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July 11th, 2008 at 4:29 pm
Great looks, lines, proportions, very respectful comments by frosty much appreciated. Hopefully this car and the addition of ve series 2 and DOD will be a winner for 2008.
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July 11th, 2008 at 4:31 pm
I salute the Pisan that designed it!
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July 11th, 2008 at 4:48 pm
this is just bloody stupid, everyone who is bagging this car are bagging it based solely on the fact they don’t like holdens. How do i know this? COS THEY BLOODY THING HASN’T EVEN BEEN RELEASED YET, NONE OF YOU HAVE DRIVEN IT, NONE OF YOU HAVE SEEN THE SALES REPORTS, AND NONE OF YOU HAVE ANY IDEA WHAT THE HELL YOUR TALKING ABOUT
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July 11th, 2008 at 4:52 pm
Imo Holden need to dump the low spec 175kw Alloy tech and make the dual variable valve unit standard with 5 speed auto.
The extra valve timing sounds like it improves torque characteristics being more reminiscient of a traditional Aussie six without the economy penalty of the extra grunt in the past.
Offer direct injection version for premium models.
This low down grunt is a key differentiator for most buyers when comparing to high reving Jap etc v6 power plants.
Commodore is very close to Aurion in the economy stakes considering superior RWD platform and larger heavier,wider,roomier body.
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July 11th, 2008 at 4:55 pm
Here here Richo…………although it is out but I doubt any one here has driven it,Im speculating Wheelnut may find his cute butt in the Black Calais Sportswagon thats near him next week .
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July 11th, 2008 at 4:56 pm
The VE Sportwagon has been released - there are now 3 at my local Holden dealer: a Black Calais; a Karma SV6; and a Voodoo SS… Looks great and quite spacious… It’s all it needs is a Premium ICE System [BOSE; Alpine; or Rockford Fosgate]
All that’s needed to complete the line up is a VE Sandman
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July 11th, 2008 at 5:02 pm
dadaaaaaaaaaa……….mention your name and you appear,so what is it my hot new fiance……..Calais or SS ? I prefer the Calais !
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July 11th, 2008 at 5:17 pm
There is only one reason why Holden stays in business even though they are producing bad cars. FLEET. Without fleet where would Holden be? Most likely nowhere because that is their main source of sales for the Commodore.
And btw, anti-spam word was Daewoo, or should it be Holdenwoo?
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July 11th, 2008 at 5:20 pm
If I was going to get a Sportwagon it would definitely be a [Black] Calais - However I still prefer the [Karma] SS Ute as there’s more room to put all my Meguiar’s car detailling gear for work etc..
Besides you’re getting a New AWD Volvo V-70 T-6 aren’t you? so I don’t think we really need 2 wagons in our 4 car garage
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July 11th, 2008 at 5:25 pm
You don’t think that another reason is because GM have realised that out of all the companies in GM World Holden are the experts at designing and building RWD cars..
I mean if Holden weren’t that imnportant to GM do you really thing they would have given Holden so much money for research and development of the VE Commodore WM Statesman not to mention the Camaro and the Torana as well as a series of other GM projects some of which have temprarily been put on ice
Then theres the money to upgrade both the Assembly line at Elizabeth the Engine Factory and the Design Studio in Melbourne.
That alone indicates that Holdne is going to be around for quite sometime..
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July 11th, 2008 at 5:26 pm
All of us Australians should be really proud of this magnificent achievement of our domestic car industry………………………………………………………………………………..aaaaaaaaa, STOP, STOP.
Bloody USA engined and Chinese sourced parts, put together in Adelaide, and all the profits of any possible sale are syphoned back to the USA.
Wow, what a waste.
Give up my citizens, this company is taking you for a ride and not giving anything back, except a dynosaur car, designed for the 1980’s.
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July 11th, 2008 at 5:27 pm
Holden have gone in hard with this wagon and after a 2 year wait they have done a brilliant job overall,not just on cost, cause at $37,790 starting price thats $440 cheaper than the out going model,a little shorter than the previous model I think and not quiet as much carrying space for those reps but over all for a family and with its 50/50 weight distribution still it will be a great drivers car with ample room to spare.
Will Holden sell the expected 700-800 cars a month,well I guess if orders so far are anything to go by their on a winner!
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July 11th, 2008 at 5:29 pm
BTW: according to the guys I know at Holden [Factory] There could possibly be a new Crewman Ute coming out most likely when the VF is released
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July 11th, 2008 at 5:30 pm
Yeah I love the Volvo wagon but still annoyed I cant get a manual like I can in the Sportswagon!
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July 11th, 2008 at 5:32 pm
yawn its a wagon
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July 11th, 2008 at 5:41 pm
I know Babe - you’d love a 6 speed Manual Calais-V
However; the Volvo has those cool booster seats for the kids not to mention AWD which the Holden doesn’t…. yet!
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July 11th, 2008 at 5:53 pm
Thats right Robbo, a wagon with so much hype for nothing and its three years late, it will not help Holden sales, unfortunately this dinosaur will be another extinct species >>>>>>> Adventura anyone…
Fuel economy not the best either.. need diesel or LPG.
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July 11th, 2008 at 5:56 pm
True, with the Volvo being $7000 more than the Calais Sportswagon I must say the Volvos overall finish is far superior to Calais ,then the Volvos finish is superior to most Euro equivalents! Still not taking away from Holdens first real hot wagon though,starting price is great value!
Ford will be grumbling under their breath Im sure at it!
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July 11th, 2008 at 5:58 pm
“Imo Holden need to dump the low spec 175kw Alloy tech and make the dual variable valve unit standard with 5 speed auto.”
Realcars, I’m sure you mean the low spec 180kW not the old 175kW found in the VZ.
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July 11th, 2008 at 6:18 pm
Holden have stated that they were selling 900 wagons a month in the last full year with the vz, but 90% were fleet, obviously not much apeal to the general public expect more private buyers with the sportwagon, which is holdens aim as it targets the suv market with it’s sleek sport designs. What I’ve heard that holden have plenty of pre orders for the sportwagon. This should be enough to overtake the corolla which is only 1000 units ahead.
When is series 2 coming out september, october? DOD will be in for sure, what about the direct injected alloytec vf or series 2?
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July 11th, 2008 at 6:33 pm
OK,
im not being biased with what im about to say, so hold on to your hats holden lovers cause it gets better for you at the end.
Wheelnut,
when was the release date of the wagon?
3 week waiting list sounds pretty normal for a newly released vehicle.
my local ford dealer says ill have to wait around 3 weeks to get me new falcon ute, and prob be a couple of weeks before the have one on the lot for me to even test drive!!!
and the ute was released just over a month ago???
Senator,
you dont know what you are talking about.
no, thats not nice/correct, i should say half of what you are saying is wrong.
what is the BF bumper the same as? the BF? well durr
if you werent blind sided, you would realise the BF doesnt even share the bumper with the BA, whether it be in XT or XR guise.
rushed the BA series?? well 3 series on the AU doesnt really sound like they rushed in the replacement.
holden went through 2 models in that time……what were they rushing??
and then you pick on the AU?? WHY?? because you dont know what you are talking about.
the AU had better engine, tranny, and suspension over the competing VS/VT.
it wasnt a total flop.
the ute sales remained #1 for the entire AU series, and the AU ute sucess propelled its sucess for a decade of #1 sales over the commodore and Hilux ute
it was also the AU series that really gave the XR range a big boost in terms of its differentiation.
XR popularity soared during the AU series.
AU worst interior in modern motoring???
you guys sure got over the VS pretty quickly didnt you??
that would easily take the gong if you ask me.
Falcon seats have always been superior to commodore seats.
I also recently came across an article in the RACQ Mag that reviewed the AU falcon. they topped it in its class on the 2nd hand motor market.
they praised the everlasting motor and gearbox combo, aswell as other things.
they way they summed up the sales crisis with it was, if they had have released the AU series11 as the first AU, things may have been very different for sales
i cant remember the other biased crap you were saying so ill leave it at that.
(please hang around for my word on the wagon at the end)
Richo,
didnt you also say the commodore is being rated over the falcon by reviewers? (forgive me if it wasnt you)
the entire 6cyl falcon range trumps over the commodore V6 range hands down.
so what if in 24 months the commodore would have caught up to the falcon????
do you think that there wont be a FG series 11? or that fords current development on their 2012 falcon wont improve on the current falcon??
what im getting at is there is no point insitting there arguing that in 12 months or 24 months this or that will happen.
so what if holden has dedicated LPG in a couple of years that will have performance on par with petrol???
i say its 10yrs too late.
by that time ford will have their new V6 LPG donk which will be sure to offer comparitive performance.
the best bit you are saying around here is STOP BAGGING A PRODUCT YOU HAVENT DRIVEN.
and on that……….
the wagon will sell.
i know there are certain people who secretly wish holden bad luck, but the reality is there is public demand for this product. they arent that silly to make it if there wasnt.
the adventura was a different story. the VE wagon is something that has been designed from the ground up.
the adventra was pretty much slapped together to fill a void in the rapidly growing SUV segment.
the wagon looks great. the worst thing going for it is that its almost like a 2yr old car being released again.
it is possible to get bored with the look of great cars.
that was the problem with the BF falcons.
sure the XR Range still looks hot as, and easily holds its own in the looks department, BUT it has become too familiar, hence outdated.
the VE faces a similar problem.
the familiarity of the VE sedan range will help to make the wagon look dated.
to cap off,
the VE wagon looks great, and dont worry , it will sell.
those that think it wont are the real fools.
our aussie makes offer great value, and once again, if you question that, you are the real fool.
wheelnuts comment of champagne taste on a coke budget pretty much sums up what to expect.
on a value for money the FG and VE are pretty good buying.
and read the headlines people……..
the japs are having big quality issues, and only getting worse.
on the other hand the VE is heading in the right direction when it comes to quality
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July 11th, 2008 at 6:38 pm
Senator,
fair comment,
the VZ wagon did sell 90% to fleets, but wit holden declaring they dont want to traget fleet anymore (even with the sedan range)
expect that 90% ratio to swing in favour of the private buyers.
they now have a wagon that has far more appeal to private buyers.
just take a look at the special edition VT, VX, VY, VZ wagons that were targeted at private buyers…..
you know, the SS versions they did……
they absolutely sold like hotcakes.
the VE wagon will sell people, and it wont solely be to fleets
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July 11th, 2008 at 7:02 pm
Senator, there will be no DOD on series two of the VE, it will come in the VF in 2010.
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July 11th, 2008 at 7:05 pm
Ah yes, the joys of school holidays by the looks of it.
I’d say the sportswagon will probably sell to private buyers, but as I’m a company lease vehicle person I would say you won’t see the volume sales of it, I feel GM Holden may have shot themselves in the foot there. I still worry about the suspension setup in the wagons, as the wagons I’ve had much to do with feel a bit washy (BAs and BFs), though I feel that tends to be a trend with falcons (non-XRs). My feeling is I’d still rather a hilux or even maybe a crewman for work, and a sedan maybe a Calais V or an Audi A6 for home.
Ok people, back to your argument…no I’m sorry Aston’s DBS is nicer then your holdens or your fords or your toyotas…and Audi’s RS4 will wipe the floor with them when the Aston has gone off to have a cup of tea and a biscuit…
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July 11th, 2008 at 7:12 pm
Just having a thought, has the Holden Commodore (in it’s history) ever had the electric window controls on the door?
Like the Ford Falcon? I don’t think it has, from my knowledge. It’s always been in the centre of the vehicle in front or beside the cup holder’s.
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July 11th, 2008 at 7:14 pm
Andrew M, how much space with the seats up has the Ford BF Falcon have (Wagon)?
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July 11th, 2008 at 7:15 pm
Thanks Andrew M - I’ve finished reading chapter one of your sportwagon novel…. when can i expect the sexond chapter. I agree with everything you said
BTW the sportwagon has a 3 month waiting list not 3 weeks and it was officially released on July 1st
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July 11th, 2008 at 7:16 pm
Duck,
always in the centre
nice one from left field by the way
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July 11th, 2008 at 7:19 pm
Austin,
the falcon wagons have leafs under them.
thats prob why they feel a bit washy to you.
thats the trade off with carrying weight, and handling.
you worry about the rear end of the wagon, then you say you would rather have a hilux for work??
the jap utes are far worse to handle than a wagon with leafs
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July 11th, 2008 at 7:23 pm
gday, Andrew M. You’ve taken breath, at long last. It was a big gasp, I almost mistook you for someone else!
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July 11th, 2008 at 7:23 pm
Duck - ever since the VN Commodore the switchgear fro the electric windows has been located in the centre console next to the handbrake.
Why - well by locating as many controls as you can in a neutral position there is no need for Holden to have special door inserts for both LHD and RHD cars which they would have to had the controls been on the armrests
You can understand it given that Holden now exports cars to the USA and Middle East… its much simpler
The other possible reason would be the electronic impulses etc could interfere with the sensors which trigger the side impact and curtain airbags which could result in premature-detanation
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July 11th, 2008 at 7:25 pm
Premature-detonation………..I think they have a spray that can fix that problem now!hahaha
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July 11th, 2008 at 7:26 pm
Duck,
the falcon Wagons capacity is 1260L with the seats up (and like 2600 odd with seats down)
and further to your earlier comment,
ford use to have the power windows in the centre too
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July 11th, 2008 at 7:30 pm
hey golfie,
yeah it was a bit long winded hey? ha ha ha ha
i didnt realise it was that long till i got off. (thats what she said)
sorry, wont happen again, im all caught up on the goss now
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