Ford says Diesel/LPG not Hybrid is future
June 13, 2008 by David Twomey
Ford Motor Company Australia is in no hurry to join its rivals Toyota and GM Holden in rushing down the hybrid power path, preferring instead to stick with its proven LPG and diesel as alternative fuels.
-David Twomey
At a monthly media briefing in Melbourne today (Thursday) Vice President Marketing and Sales, Mark Winslow, said Ford was ‘comfortable’ with its current strategy, which focuses on the E-Gas variant of the Ford Falcon and increased diesel power.
He also intimated that Ford globally was working of “low displacement, forced induction” engine technology, taken to mean small displacement engines that use both turbo and supercharging to provide the power and performance of a much larger engine while offering the fuel efficiency of a small engine.
Ford Australia President Bill Osborne, who normally takes the media briefing but is in the United States where the Australian government is discussing the future of the local automotive industry with both General Motors and Ford, has already said the Falcon will have diesel power by 2010, when it also switches from a locally-made straight six-cylinder engine to an imported V6.
Mr Winslow said Ford definitely saw a lot more diesel-powered cars in its future, along with other developing technologies, but was not really talking about hybrids.
He said the E-Gas Falcon was a proven green vehicle that provided both lower tailpipe emissions and lower running costs.
He cited the example of an E-Gas Falcon XT which he said, run over 25,000 kilometres a year, was $350 cheaper to operate than the best-selling Toyota Corolla.
Mr Winslow said that in the past two years E-Gas Falcons had gone from having residual values $1000 less than a petrol car to commanding a $2500 premium.
Further questioning the rush to hybrids, Mr Winslow posed the question of who would buy all the three year old used hybrids that would head onto the market as a result of the government backed push to encourage Toyota to build 10,000 Hybrid Camry’s a year in Australia.
“We would be concerned about the profile of the second user for such cars, which we expect in the first place will be bought by companies and government.”
He questioned whether typical second-hand private buyers would be keen to take on hybrids, with the potential of costly battery replacement.
“E-Gas on the other hand has the proven record of operating economy plus it is greener, with four per cent less emissions, and that is where Ford is already firmly established.”
Mr Winslow also confirmed that E-Gas was now being built in the new FG Falcon range and said the cars were being shipped to dealers.
He also emphasised that from about 2010 Ford would be pursuing its plans for a diesel engine in the Falcon and added that once the next-generation Focus small car was being built in Australia, it too would offer a locally-made diesel alternative.
He said Ford believed these cars would also present a strong case to government and fleet buyers as alternatives that were fuel efficient and environmentally friendly.
Mr Winslow said that in 2007, of total Falcon sales, 15 per cent of sedans, 41 per cent of wagons and 37 per cent of utilities were E-Gas.
He said Ford had stepped up production of the LPG components about two years ago and was in a position to meet almost any demand for E-Gas in the future.
He also added that by 2010 Ford would have the Australian-built Focus with a diesel engine to compete with the Toyota Camry hybrid when it eventually became available.
Print it: 
David Twomey,
Yes I know. The thing is they need to call it something friendly rather than diesel as it isn’t made from oil. Again I can’t understand why it hasn’t been largely publicised. Maybe it will in the not too distant future and it will surely make oil companies very nervous. I will be watching with interest.
Darren W – great point.
Some people talk about battery replacement yet Toyota hybrid systems have proven to be ultra reliable, dependable and durable.
About 3 weeks ago, JD Powers released thier 2008 UK Quality / Customer Satisfaction Survey which the Prius infact ranked No.1 beating over 100 other models. It was reported that customers are particualrly pleased with the quality and reliablity of the car.
The Prius is also renouned to travel inexcess of 300 000km’s with little or no attention bar regular / scheduled servicing.
Also worth mentioning is that apparently premature battery replacements for all Prius’s that have been sold in Australia over the years including the early models that are now about 10 years old is so minute that it equates to about .3% or less
However, what some clowns have completely neglected to discuss is the fact that modern diesels engines can be extremely expensive to repair due not only to the technology involved but the high pressures associated with the direct injection systems.
Take my word for it … if anything associated with the fuel system (not to mention other components) fail, your wallet ‘WILL’ painfullly know about it.
So … the question i ask – why don’t some of these people who rave on about diesels discuss this expensive fact not to mention Diesel is now about 20c per litre more expensive then Petrol and as demand no-doubt increases over time, you can be ultra sure the gap will only widen.
australian comapnys are always 10 years behind.Atleast in 2018 ford will be saying that buy 2020 there will be a hydrogen falcon
Guys, don\’t forget Winslow is Ford\’s Marketing VP, he is just placing marketing spin on essentially the only response Ford Australia CAN put on this situation…
Why? I am fairly confident FoA would dearly love to have a hybrid Falcon – but a hybrid Falcon just won\’t reach market until many years after Toyota 2010 or Holden if at all …Ford Australia got burnt so badly from the AU days that they do not have the resources to do ANYTHING like this, and are unwilling to take the risk, because quite frankly if they get it wrong – say bye bye FoA..
Coupled with the fact, Camry & Zeta are both global platforms and they can much easily take a global hybrid powertrain so any development costs will be spread over a much larger volume – they have the business case to pull it off. Falcon on the other hand is a unique platform which as a platform will be selling probably 5-10 times less in numbers by 2010 then the other two platforms globally – they just cannot justify the development costs
unfortunately FoA are stuck in between a rock and a hard place – until Falcon takes a global platform dont expect a hybrid powertrain anytime soon.
SuperCujo Says:
June 13th, 2008 at 8:39 am
\”Coal fired power stations, believe it or not, are more efficient than an engine in a car. 36-38% versus 20%, so switching to coal fired power is actually reduces emissions. Add to this that more electricity is coming from renewable or carbon neutral sources\”
Not quite SuperCuji. You have to factor in transmission losses, the electrical motor doesn\’t convert 100% of the batteries power. The battery doesnt store 100% of the energy pumped into it nor does it allow it all to be discharged. Add all those losses up and your better off driving a bell jetranger to work.
Hydrogen powered stuff needs water. Last time I checked water wasn’t terribly abundant, with half of Australia being in drought. We could use desal, but that takes up a lot of energy and would hike up the cost.
Unfortunately we will all have to go Nuclear eventually.
Produce as much Hydrogen/electricity as u like with no carbon emissions and enough Uranium for a a couple of Centuries at least. Will be able to hold it over the rest of the world like the Arabs have been with their oil.
Jez…..hydrogen power will use sea water not POTABLE water!!!!LOL
Yeah,water has to have impurities for electrolysis to work.
So great discussion! I agree with everyone in the interim period, Ford really needs to update the LPG system and make it more efficient. No point in having LPG if it’s using twice as much as a petrol system. I’m not sure what the answer to the future is, but NOW if Ford wants to get serious about looking enviro friendly then the LPG has to move up a notch in the efficiency departmant
“Yeah,water has to have impurities for electrolysis to work.”
yeh, thats true. I guess we could also drink our emissions, coz it’d be pure water.
E Gas doesn’t use twice as much.
Commodore duel fuel system is injected system and is more efficient both in terms of kws and consumption. Is after market but fitted when you buy so doesn’t void warranty.
Small LPG tank which limits range on LPG between fills compared to 80 litre egas(ute).
I like that “Twin charged” tech. Direct injected 2 litre four two stage super charger and turbo charger running dedicated LPG in an Ecocharged Falcon.
Duel fuel system! what a technology?
Jimbo – firstly the 308 is not, never will be, in the same class of car as a holden commodore or ford falcon, which is what this article is about. Its a reasonably small hatchback. As far as interior space goes, i’m sorry but no it is NOT nearly as big as a commodore or falcon, boot is similar however being a hatch i will give you that. Also the performance doesn’t match, as you said. We are talking about LARGE SEDANS here, not small european hatchbacks. Not that there is anything wrong with a small euro hatch, i use to own one, just saying that it isn’t relevant to what i was saying.
Secondly you say this “fantasy figure of 7-8ltr for a diesel on the freeway?” umm no mate, no i did not, i said a diesel returning around 7l/100km, i didn’t say anything about freeway driving! For the purpose of my comparison of how much it would cost to cover 1000km, i was using ADR standard fuel economy, which is a mixture of city and freeway driving. Even a V8 commodore will do under 10l/100km on the highway mate! That’s not what i was talking about, i was talking about the cost to run a car driving it NORMALLY because most people don’t live on a highway!
For me right now I would drive a diesel car LPG would be my next option but Hybrid car would be my last option.
Considering that the MAIN factor in choosing hybrid, or electric as alternatives for power source is to eliminate dependency on “oil” in the future (10~15 year time frame)… I think Ford is either developing something better than electric or… missing the point.
BTW, China’s automotive industry is growing real quick. Now, if you add in about 1 billion new vehicles in the next 5~10 years…. just imagine the demand for oil…
Australia already paying a lot, will probably be seeing $2.50 or $3 a liter….
ive studied all of this for a whole year i was conceptualizing an eco friendly truck for large travel and what i found after my research of all different types of fuels and motor systems was that the electric car with and electric motor and battery’s running of electricity from solar plants, nuclear plants and residential homes that feed unused solar power back into the grid was the best alternative.
as for batteries they have heaps of new ideas that are light and effective from nano tubes to viruses that are batteries i know hard to believe but true.
the market is moving fast now, away from oil and ford just dont have anything in the pipline.
what we need is ultra light cars with small wheel mounted electric motors powered by solar plants and residential solar roof pannels.
Ok Richo, but when you said 1000km I assumed a long freeway journey. My Bad.
But a 308 will accomodate 5 adults comfortably and that is all a Falcon or a Commodore can do.
I run my car on magic crystals
Nik516 – 100% agree with you.
Battery technology is improving at light speed at present. It wasn’t that long ago that all we had were carbon/alkaline/lead acid batteries. Now in quick succession we have NiCad and next Lithium Ion. Carbon nanotube ultracapacitors offer the opportunity to create a near infinite life alternative to batteries with hogh power output and no disposal issues – just need to get the cost down.
All those hybrid naysayers need to understand that the hybrid efficiency is directly linked to battery technology – how? If more energy is available in the on board batteries then this permits IC engine to operate more often at its optimum fuel efficiency torque/RPM point. You’ve all heard of those remarkable stories where a conventional petrol or diesel car driven by someone with a gentle right foot who knows what they are doing is able to deliver incredible efficiencies 3-5 lt/100km.
Trackdaze – transmission efficiencies and electric drive efficiencies are in the high 90’s so not really a factor to worry about. Having said that, I agree that the comment that coal fired power stations running at 36-38% are better than IC engines running at 20% is a bit misleading – coal has inherently greater Co2 intensity than petrol or diesel. But certainly a gas fired Combined cyle gas turbine (using waste heat from gas turbine to generate steam for a steam turbine) at 60% efficiency would generate far less CO2 than a car engine.
would have to be 5 pretty small adults jimbo! Theres a difference between 5 adults “fitting in” the car, and 5 adults being “comfortable” in the car
Richo, Jimbo is right…
Between Australian Big family cars and the 308, there is only cm’s of difference, what ever you put into the Big aussies you could squeez into the 308. As a matter of fact, the Commodores or falcons aren’t exactly too comfortable for 5 big adults neither… And how often do you drive with 3 big guys in the back?
If Ford is so keen on Gas and Diesel being the way to the short term future, then why isn’t there a more advanced injection system on E-Gas Falcons, which offer less power loss and improved efficiency. Also why cant a manual transmission be optioned on the E-Gas XR6? afterall isnt the XR supose to be a driver’s car?
Realcars – “Unfortunately we will all have to go Nuclear eventually.”
Haha and one car breaks down the whole city dissappears lol.
I think for the short term definately LPG/Diesel, but for the longer term and continued sustainability, definately hybrid and eventually to a full renewable energy source.
From Ford point of view I can see why they are following this option, as this technology works to a good level! (as Hybrid is still awhile to go to shine). Given their recent profit levels they need to make short term wins and cannot take risks into longer term return based ventures especially when that market has Toyota Aura all around it.
In the short term hybrids are not the answer as they are way too short term as pollution will still be caused! And in an increasing world population, that means more drivers and pollution will still occur and a nominal slower rate then now!
Hydrogen is the answer………..”Hydrogen, being a fuel that burns cleanly, it can directly address polluting emissions.”
“When you burn hydrogen you produce only water, so there is no CO2 produced, so no impact on greenhouse gas emissions.” (HYBRIDS STILL WILL PRODUCE CO2 EMISSIONS AND ARE STILL RELIANT ON PETROL AND/OR ELECTRICITY).
Seems to me all people are blinded by this fact thinking it is the answer…..its only a stepping stone to next level (e.g. full electric or hydrogen)!
For the city, I’ll keep riding my bike… and keep my 2.0 litre turbo diesel golf for highway runs. It still averages 4.7 litres per 100 between sydney / melbourne. Go small turbo diesels!
Golfy,
my predictions into the auto future are quickly becoming a reality, as wheelnut emailed me to tell me my predictions on VE production are also becoming a reality as with concentration on LPG by ford. ha ha ha ha (did that make sense? oh well)
I’d reckon i could name my price if i went around to any auto maker ha ha ha ha ha.
the only thing i say about this, is its 2 yrs too late, but better too late than never i suppose.
they really needed to have the sequential vapour system in it with the FG upgrade if they were as serious as they say
i still dont see whats stopping the 6sp auto being put in it though. i currently have the 5sp manual in mine and its the lack of gear box choice that will se me leave LPG behind when i upgrade very soon (sob sob)
it seems the only sceptics are those that dont have their facts right.
i mean those that think that diesel emitts less stuff into the air than LPG are wrong.
those that think LPG means there has to be a massive power drop and economy increase are wrong
and what about the ones out there that say “but they are still using oil”
well no they are not!!!!
grab an encyclopedia and discover that LPG isnt primarily made from oil. i mean if you have so much time to sit here and whinge about resources, perhaps do a web search and you will then have no reason for your stubborn, ill perceived ways. australia burns off a hell of a lot of gas due to not enough demand.
oh and if any one watched ACA last night, what did you think of the article that declared that we have hundreds of years of oil left???????
oh and i totally love the ones that harp on about what if LPG hits $1.50 per litre????????
well ill tell ya what happens, petrol will at that time be $3.20 per litre and you will be then saying what if LPG hits $3.20 per litre???
all whilst never realising that no matter how far back in history you track it LPG has always benn less than half the price and always will be.
demand has increased massively over the years and the LPG/unleaded price differential has remained the same
oh and Realcars,
the falcon E Gas doesnt consume more fuel than the duel fuelled commodore.
the old tech system ford uses stil fares alright when it comes to that comparison, obviously helped by the ideal set up of dedicated fuel delivery as opposed to the compromised duel fuel set up.
a dedicated sequential vapour LPG falcon would achieve near identical consumption to its petrol brother, mark my words.
ive seen duel fuelled (compromised) territory’s achieve 13L/100
and SS commodores achieve higher power out puts on LPG than on petrol
Duel fuel doesnt really have a signifcant decrease in fuel consumption… what it does have is far less loss of power (ie far more practical). The LPG Falcon loses 40kw while the duel fuel Commodore only loses 5kw. These numbers speak for themselves.
Oh as for Fords comments… Im not suprised, its not a matter of hybrids having no future, more they havent been able to develop anything in this area so lets just say its not the future! The Falcon hybrid project, heavily govt funded, barely got off the ground after years.
Andrew M – there was also a report on 60 minutes which said there is alot of oil to be had in both Canada and Australia.
The problem is unlike regular crude Liquid Oil; the oil in Canada is in the form of Sand Oil and the oil in Australia is in the form of Shale oil.
Both of which are harder to extract than normal oil as there is a considerable amount of mining involved and both of which have a heavy impact on the environment.
Whether or not these processes take over from drilling for Crude Oil when the deposits in the ocean run dry depends on whther or not the government/voters believe its worth further damage to an already unstable environment or leaving it and trying to fix the situation –
The fact Governments around the world are offering incentives for car companies to produce and people to buy hybrids whilst imposing penalties on fuel cars such as Londons Congestion Tax indicates they are leaning more towards a Greener future not Black
MR T,
you have no idea.
how do you summarise that duel fuels lose less power yet drink more than dedicated models?
your argument is “flawed” as we say around here.
the falcons system shows a greater power difference against its petrol version purely because it hasnt seen any advancements over the past 8yrs.
just track it back 8 yrs and have a look at the power equivalent of the petrol falcon V LPG falcon back then.
the commodore consumes more because it is duel fuel. also are you really that silly to think that if the commodore system was dedicated it would lose a hell of a lot more power.
in basic terms the falcons system is still running “carby” LPG where as the after market system on the commodore is running an “EFI” LPG.
if the commodore was dedicated it would achieve similar consumption results to its petrol equivalent.
if the falcon had “EFI” LPG, it would achieve near identical power and consumption figures to the petrol version.
Wheelnut,
yes i know it takes a bit more to refine the oil through the processes they are now shifting focus to, but now days it is worth it due to the high prices.
just say for eg that the refining from shale and sand cost 1/3 more to get to the product compared to the oil that needs less refining from the wells.
well now that oil has doubled in price 1/3 more isnt that much compared to what it was 10 yrs ago.
That’s one hyphenated name u got there!
Are u an aristocrat or something?
I wonder what would be involved and cost to convert a falcon egas system to MPI after market?
Lets not use excuses that Falcon hasnt been updated… the fact they havent is no doubt because there isnt much advancement to be had! The duel fuel system with its injection system offers more practicality with only 5kw loss of powered compared to 40kw with LPG and it also gives the convenience of regular petrol is LPG is scarce.
Falcon egas(HAS NO INJECTORS WORKS LIKE A CARBY) could be improved if it was the same type as used on the Commodore(USES GAS INJECTORS SIMILAR TO EFI). Forget the dual fuel thing for a minute TP.
Commodore would be EVEN BETTER on gas if the current system was dedicated i.e no petrol and engine tuned exclusively for gas.
FALCON EGAS to Commodore sequential vapour system is like comparing a carby engine to a fuel injected engine.
TPs got plenty of gas
Good luck REALCARS…………….its TP your referring to.
Good call PHILL!
dont worry guys TP is a fictional character.
nobody can deliver so many “flawed” arguments and seriously think they are for real.
i mean now he says LPG is scarce????
and you will always see a 40kw difference in power yet on the other hand acknowledge how there are systems that deliver comparible power outputs???
just laugh it off
i reckon he must type this sort of stuf and then sit there and play with himself laughing about how funny he thinks he is
oh we are laughing aswell alright, but it is just NOT WITH YOU (its at you if you didnt get the drift)
(well thats if you know what a drift is in your FWD camry)
Realcars,
mate i was actually going to find out myself what the cost would be to have a better aftermarket LPG computer fitted to an E-Gas model.
if i can be bothered before i sign the bottom line i will suss it out.
half the stuff is already done with the E-Gas, its just lacking the better brain.
I agree Andrew M.
There couldn’t be much more to it surely?
All the plumbing is there. Engine internals also suitably modified which is a bonus over the petrol variant.
I don’t know if that means much as a mate has a duel fuel VS and it’s been running gas for last 150,000klms of its 230,000klm life with no probs although it has got a flash lube kit fitted.
Well the petrol companies have it over us, Diesel is more than Petrol, seems to me the answer is Hybrid, I am sure battery replacement will be no more expensive than Diesel parts or Turbos or superchargers, we need cleaner air right!!
I want a Ford Ranger with a small diesel engine. When can I get one? We have thousands of small Bio-plants starting up in the USA and we can run 50 percent Bio in warm weather
with no problems. Bio has very little polution and be made for 38 cents a gallon. I have a VW Jetta diesel that gets 50 miles a gallon and has a powerful 1.9 100 horse engine. It runs like a 400 horse engine and better than any gas engine I’ve owned in the past 50 years. Lets get with the program and beat out dealers in other Nations.
Conrad Riffle