Ford says Diesel/LPG not Hybrid is future
13 Jun, 2008
94 Comments 
Ford Motor Company Australia is in no hurry to join its rivals Toyota and GM Holden in rushing down the hybrid power path, preferring instead to stick with its proven LPG and diesel as alternative fuels.
-David Twomey
At a monthly media briefing in Melbourne today (Thursday) Vice President Marketing and Sales, Mark Winslow, said Ford was ‘comfortable’ with its current strategy, which focuses on the E-Gas variant of the Ford Falcon and increased diesel power.
He also intimated that Ford globally was working of “low displacement, forced induction” engine technology, taken to mean small displacement engines that use both turbo and supercharging to provide the power and performance of a much larger engine while offering the fuel efficiency of a small engine.
Ford Australia President Bill Osborne, who normally takes the media briefing but is in the United States where the Australian government is discussing the future of the local automotive industry with both General Motors and Ford, has already said the Falcon will have diesel power by 2010, when it also switches from a locally-made straight six-cylinder engine to an imported V6.
Mr Winslow said Ford definitely saw a lot more diesel-powered cars in its future, along with other developing technologies, but was not really talking about hybrids.
He said the E-Gas Falcon was a proven green vehicle that provided both lower tailpipe emissions and lower running costs.
He cited the example of an E-Gas Falcon XT which he said, run over 25,000 kilometres a year, was $350 cheaper to operate than the best-selling Toyota Corolla.
Mr Winslow said that in the past two years E-Gas Falcons had gone from having residual values $1000 less than a petrol car to commanding a $2500 premium.
Further questioning the rush to hybrids, Mr Winslow posed the question of who would buy all the three year old used hybrids that would head onto the market as a result of the government backed push to encourage Toyota to build 10,000 Hybrid Camry’s a year in Australia.
“We would be concerned about the profile of the second user for such cars, which we expect in the first place will be bought by companies and government.”
He questioned whether typical second-hand private buyers would be keen to take on hybrids, with the potential of costly battery replacement.
“E-Gas on the other hand has the proven record of operating economy plus it is greener, with four per cent less emissions, and that is where Ford is already firmly established.”
Mr Winslow also confirmed that E-Gas was now being built in the new FG Falcon range and said the cars were being shipped to dealers.
He also emphasised that from about 2010 Ford would be pursuing its plans for a diesel engine in the Falcon and added that once the next-generation Focus small car was being built in Australia, it too would offer a locally-made diesel alternative.
He said Ford believed these cars would also present a strong case to government and fleet buyers as alternatives that were fuel efficient and environmentally friendly.
Mr Winslow said that in 2007, of total Falcon sales, 15 per cent of sedans, 41 per cent of wagons and 37 per cent of utilities were E-Gas.
He said Ford had stepped up production of the LPG components about two years ago and was in a position to meet almost any demand for E-Gas in the future.
He also added that by 2010 Ford would have the Australian-built Focus with a diesel engine to compete with the Toyota Camry hybrid when it eventually became available.
Location: Home / Falcon, Ford, Toyota Corolla, Utes, electric, Toyota, Hybrid, Australian Car Industry News, Fuel News, Diesel, Running Costs, Toyota Camry, Car News / ...
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June 13th, 2008 at 1:12 am
Ford’s committed to something a little bit different, but it’s still all good for the buyers and industry alike.
Where’s Andrew M? Come on down, mate, and tell us what the LPG Falcon needs to get really serious.
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June 13th, 2008 at 1:19 am
“He also emphasised that from about 2010 Ford would be pursuing its plans for a diesel engine in the Falcon and added that once the Focus small car was being built in Australia, it too would offer a diesel alternative.”
David, do you realise that the above statement implies that the Focus is not yet available as a diesel?
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June 13th, 2008 at 1:28 am
Phillip, okay a “locally-made” diesel alternative
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June 13th, 2008 at 1:40 am
…of what is going to be a new generation car.
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June 13th, 2008 at 2:07 am
Is Ford brain-dead?
Pinning your future to a resource that is finite is pure lunacy. Why not move towards an electric future? Or even hydrogen?
Is Ford part owned by an oil company?
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June 13th, 2008 at 2:17 am
Electric and Hydrogen aye? Well Hydrogen doesnt have the infrastructure, then there is the problem of transport and getting enough hydrogen into a tank. Electricity well the batteries will need replacing and most of our power-stations are coal powered. Just think if your houses power was knocked out over night from a tree falling? no way to get to work…
LPG and diesel are the best alternatives, there are other ways of creating biodiesel not just from food supplies. And Australia is self sufficient in LPG, just we pay at the world price to make sure the energy companies sell it here otherwise they will sell it overseas to get a higher price.
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June 13th, 2008 at 2:31 am
Ford needs to get it’s finger out and up date the E-gas system to a more efficient one and then they will be on a winner….but NOT until then!!
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June 13th, 2008 at 2:49 am
Yeah they really need to update it, instead of paying some guy to invent a cool name such as Venturi Demand System. After market systems are more advanced than the current ford system. Their current system is preventing things such as ESP and traction control from being applied to the E-Gas variants and also preventing the 5spd and 6spd auto. I think they aren’t going to update it because the V6 is 18 months away, so why not focus on development dollars on getting the V6 reliable on LPG.
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June 13th, 2008 at 3:03 am
Minnow…..I understand that the new motor is only 18 months away so Ford has to make sure the new V6 comes with the best LPG system possible and all the safety features and gear box options of the petrol….if they show some pride and offer an excellent LPG in the next generation engines then cars like the Camry hybrid will look foolish! BUT if Ford make the mistake of offering a half hearted effort then they will miss a golden opportunity!!
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June 13th, 2008 at 7:23 am
Agree with you carl.
For me to consider a LPG falcon it has to have the new Sequential Vapour Injection that reduces fuel consumption to not much (about 15%) more than a petrol version.
It would also need to be dual fuel. I dont care if the petrol tank is relocated to the spare wheel well and is reduced to lets say 25litres
It also needs to have a 6speed auto or manual. for fuel economy purposes of course.
& if ford were to take a leaf out of toyotas marketing book they would differential the model. Yes change the shape. That way governments would buy them because there would be a visible clue (just like the pointless PriArse)so pollies can prance around and say look how enviromental we are.
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June 13th, 2008 at 7:25 am
Frankly 2010 is too far away. It needs to happen now.
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June 13th, 2008 at 8:39 am
“Electricity well the batteries will need replacing and most of our power-stations are coal powered. Just think if your houses power was knocked out over night from a tree falling? no way to get to work…”
Coal fired power stations, believe it or not, are more efficient than an engine in a car. 36-38% versus 20%, so switching to coal fired power is actually reduces emissions. Add to this that more electricity is coming from renewable or carbon neutral sources.
If a tree falls on a power line, you give your car pool buddy a call, catch a taxi, walk/cycle, drive to a rapid charge station (you wouldn’t be completely flat). Or you just chuck a sickie.
Or you just hop in the car and the hybrid set up charges your battery for you from a small petrol/diesel engine or a small turbine. Battery tech isn’t there for a long range purely electric car. But with some more development, I don’t see why a electric car with a small charge unit cannot replace the existing drivetrains.
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June 13th, 2008 at 8:51 am
All this talk of diesel’s and Hybrids etc is getting a bit repetitive. Lets get the ball rolling Ford on perpetual motion or solar power. Anything rather than worrying about 100year+ old technology. (Dr Ferdinand Porsches 1st ever vehicle was basically a hybrid).
But on the Ford Subject.
Ford, do something about it, stop being reactive and jumping on the “flavour-of-the-day” bandwagon and start being proactive once again. Henry (Ford) led the way in the industry by implementing the production line and shared parts. Since then Ford has always been one step behind.
Show us the way Ford.
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June 13th, 2008 at 9:35 am
I thought we were facing a shortage of oil, from which petreol and DIESEL is made?
Wtf?
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June 13th, 2008 at 9:45 am
How sympathetic of Ford to be concerned about who would buy a 2nd hand hybrid. They obviously have little concern for the resale values of their own cars at the moment. A base model Falcon is worth less than a Corolla after 2 years.
Perhaps he is taking aim at hybrids in general becaus Ford has no hybrids of its own likely to surface in the next 3 or 4 years.
And while currently an E-gas falcon may have an advantage in running costs that is only because of the relative price of the fuels. They have made no real advances in its own efficiency. How much more efficient is a FG E-gas compared to a 5 year old BA? Like it or not hybrid technology has the ability to improve the fuel efficiency of any engine type, be it Diesel, LPG, Petrol or any other fuel you may wish to run your vehicle on.
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June 13th, 2008 at 9:56 am
Here is your anwser, why suffer with a 4cyl BUZZBOX?
“He cited the example of an E-Gas Falcon XT which he said ran over 25,000 kilometres a year and was $350 cheaper to maintain than the best-selling Toyota Corolla.”
Game Over
TOLD YOU, LPG RULES!!!
Cheers
F-0
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June 13th, 2008 at 10:09 am
I am around $0.08 cents a km with LPG.
Not bad for a big/heavy 6 driven without any regard to economy and running a ancient LPG system.
Roll of SGI system, it WILL come $$$ will be the issue.
Cheers
F-0
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June 13th, 2008 at 10:09 am
I like Anthonii’s observation about our reliance on the oil economy…..lots to consider there in terms of oil being a finite resource.
Isn’t there an efficient and enviro-friendly GTL (gas-to-liquid) option that distils diesel from coal? I think Epic Energy is a company in Aus looking into this, and Australia has an abundance of brown and black coal.
If we do rely on an oil economy so heavily, at what point in the future will use of personalised-internal-combustion-engined transport (ie cars - petrol, diesel, LPG, hybrid and plug-in) be rationalised or even legislated to ensure that the energy source is prioritised for public transport networks, air travel and or domestic power generation??
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June 13th, 2008 at 10:47 am
Frugal one, my point is you are only happy because you can buy LPG at what? 65 or 70cpl? If LPG suddenly rose to 1.40 because of increased demand or an unforseen supply restriction I bet you’d be wishing that Ford had improved its LPG models as much as the petrol fuel economy has improved.(somewhere around 20%? in the last five years for the IL6)
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June 13th, 2008 at 10:48 am
This idea from Ford is so much smarter at present, until we can buy hydrogen cars the thought of pluggin our car into my power point reminds me of those horrible chainsaws, lawnmower’s, drills and weak whipper snippers all with long leads attached to them, makes no sense.
Frugal One is spot on, LPG is so much better for the environment, hip pocket and improved fuel economy.
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June 13th, 2008 at 10:58 am
Hmmm….A little short-sighted Ford! I would rather drive a diesel but it is best not to discount hybrid technology especially diesel-hybrid.
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June 13th, 2008 at 11:06 am
Correct me if I am wrong but doesn’t LPG produce more greenhouse gas than modern diesels. Therefore possibly cheaper/possinly not; but not better for the environment!
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June 13th, 2008 at 11:09 am
So FordGT40, because you have bad memories of some piece of shit electric garden tool, you think a plug in hybrid Falcon will be shit and not cut the grass properly?
Reducing our use of oil is a paramount concern at present.
I reckon a gas-guzzler tax on cars sold that consume more than 5L/100km per ton would work well. Make it a sliding scale 0-5 get 0% tax, 5-7.5 get 10%, 7.5-10 get 20% and 10+ gets 30% added to the price. The current system of fuel taxes doesn’t seem to be deterring those from buying inefficient cars for daily duty. Or just increase the fuel tax. Political suicide but it would help push us away from oil.
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June 13th, 2008 at 11:14 am
Also this is considering you can get the same power and performance out of a 2L VW diesel as you cam out of an EGAS Falcon.
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June 13th, 2008 at 11:37 am
Oh yeah, just a funny (yet another possible fuel alternative) side note in Bougainville a German engineer has developed Coconut oil based diesel fuel that is much cleaner than diesel and he claims to improve the smoothness of the engine. Also it would make the road smell like summer time. Sounds good to me.
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June 13th, 2008 at 11:37 am
You know they say that people who live under power lines are prone to cancer, something about eletro-magnetic fields and the effect they have on our cells. Now guess what, electric motors create electro-magnetic fields around themselves. Is it possible that sometime soon someone is going to say that we might get cancer if we are to close to these electric motors in cars.
May be the diesel option is where we should be moving towards in the short term.
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June 13th, 2008 at 11:43 am
Diesel fumes and diesel exhausts have been found to contain definite carcinogens.
In the end, everything will give you cancer, just a matter of how much exposure you have. Like those idiots who spend 10 hours a day on their mobile phone and then wonder when they get cancer of the jaw or a tumour.
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June 13th, 2008 at 12:06 pm
Plug in power? You know when you want to fill your BBQ gas bottle all you do is swap it with a full one and hand over some money ($20). Who’s to say you want be able to go to a service station and swap your battery pack and hand over some money.
Gee our society could be so flexible if it wanted.
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June 13th, 2008 at 12:31 pm
Tony M,
They are setting up a trial of that very system in Israel.
A great idea.
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June 13th, 2008 at 1:04 pm
Ford will do just fine. Just shift the spending to LPG/Diesel a bit more, some direct injection, maybe a DSG for good measure, a pinch of government funding and presto!
The ‘hybrid’ thing is not going to cause everyone to flock en masse to a Tojo dealer- They are only making 10,000 a year which is at least the same mix as Ford and Holden will get for diesels , and Ford already has 30% of its sales as EGAS. That could only increase if they do the right thing. Not everyone will adapt to hybrids (and that doesn’t make them inferior- maybe they just want a fun car).
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June 13th, 2008 at 1:05 pm
…..instead of some ‘lets impress the neighbors’ BS
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June 13th, 2008 at 1:27 pm
What about a Ford Fiesta Diesel? And whilst he rabbits on about the batery replacement cost for hybrid vehicles he fails to mention that turbo replacement on a diesel (and valve replacement on an LPG fueled vehicle) happens more often than it should.
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June 13th, 2008 at 1:54 pm
Forget diesel why not look at what sapphire energy have come up with. It will allow all internal combustion engines to remain as they are and have less emmissions than that of Ethanol. Not sure in comparison to LPG. But it is made from dirty water, CO2, algae and sunlight….no oil used or burnt there and yet it gets no press at all.
All this talk about hybrids but this product from sapphire energy is basically a RENEWABLE energy.
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June 13th, 2008 at 1:55 pm
Oh and good on you Ford. Some real common sense for a change instead of trying to be populist like our PM.
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June 13th, 2008 at 2:04 pm
Holden, ford both have the capacity to launch something truly cheap to run, without needing to worry about hybrids at all. It’s simple, twin charge technology. You could easily develop a 2.0ltr direct injected 4cyl with twin charge (supercharger and turbocharger in one for those who don’t know) and run on LPG. Fuel economy of around 8.0l/100km would definetly be acheivable. Yes ofcourse a diesel would produce better economy in a falcon or commodore then that (although not by much), but the fact it would be run on LPG at around 70c as opposed to diesel at around 1.70….
It would cost you $56 to travel 1000km assuming an LPG price of 70cents as opposed to $119 in a turbo diesel acheiving around 7l/100km and at a diesel cost of around $1.70 and still cheaper then a toyota camry hybrid which would cost $91 assuming 5.7l/100km (toyota’s claim) and a petrol price of $1.50.
You tell me what makes more sense!
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June 13th, 2008 at 2:05 pm
almost forgot, a twin charged 2.0ltr 4cyl would be able to easily match the performance of a current falcon 4.0ltr 6 of 200kw. VW make a 1.4ltr twin charge 4cyl pump out 130kw already, so a 2.0ltr would easily get to 200kw and provide the exact same performance as a 4.0ltr falcon
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June 13th, 2008 at 2:11 pm
the problem ofcourse would be perception. “hybrid” sounds so much better then “twin charge”. The great unwashed out there would still think that a hybrid run on petrol would be cheaper to run and therefore better to buy then a twin charged 4cyl run on LPG, which as i have just demonstracted couldn’t be further from the truth. Thats why toyota push down the hybrid path so much, not because they think it is the cheapest and most environmentally friendly way to produce cars, but because they know that the words “electric car” ring so true with enviro-nazi’s and they will get more credit and recongnition as a result. The germans on the other hand, VW in paticular, know this is utter rubbish hence why they aren’t even thinking about hybrids, they are developing new, fuel efficient and cleaner burning engines such as twin charged petrols and super economical diesels. Toyota is just playing the game, they just happen to be playing it so damn well that most people don’t even realise they are playing the game!
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June 13th, 2008 at 2:39 pm
Richo, FYI Mr Winslow does say Ford are working on “twin charge”. One thing about twin charge is that it does not work well on larger capacity engines so 1.8 - maybe2.0 - is about the limit.
The 1.4 VW engine produces performance abou the equal of a 2.5-litre V6 and the fuel efficiency of a diesel!
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June 13th, 2008 at 2:48 pm
From what i can see hybrid has captured the imagination of the masses and LPG is the intelligent man’s fuel! So the first car maker to successfully combine both will be onto a real winner!!
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June 13th, 2008 at 2:51 pm
But will we ever see one in a falcon David? No, why? Ford wouldn’t have the balls, neither would holden… although holden are apparently working on a turbo 4 for the commodore so maybe i am being a little harsh
your right though, it doesn’t work as effectively on larger engines, but i still beleive it would be effective on a 2.0, but even a 1.8 twin charge would get a falcon or commodore along just fine
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June 13th, 2008 at 2:52 pm
Carl, it will probably be an aussie built car. If toyota where smart their hybrid camry would be run on LPG. Don’t see it happening though
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June 13th, 2008 at 2:55 pm
Hyundai already have an LPG-Hybrid, LPG is plentiful in Korea as well as Australia, and the suggestion is that they will have it on the market here next year!
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June 13th, 2008 at 2:58 pm
Westy that sapphire energy really sounds brilliant, ultra clean emission, trully renewaeble and currently existing refineries can allready process it. And most importantly Existing cars can run of it.
But it will take them 3 years to develop the first testing batch, and further 5 years to bring it to market. I’ll sure be waiting!!
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June 13th, 2008 at 3:00 pm
Richo.????
You seem to be forgetting a 1.6L Peugeot 308 diesel will return 3.13L-100km and it is almost as big as a family sized car when it comes to interior and boot space.
On your 1000km journey it would cost only $53.21.
That is technology available today and the on road performance will not be as good as your idea but for your average person it will be more than enough.
This fantasy figure of 7L-100km for a diesel on the freeway? I don’t know of any large diesel sedans that would average more than 5-6L-100 on a freeway trip. In fact a VW Passat with a 125kw 2L diesel will out perform a V6 and return a less than 6L-100km figure.
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June 13th, 2008 at 3:09 pm
Sapphire are not the only ones into this BioMax in Melbourne are making diesel using the same process, they grow algae in Power Station cooling ponds believe it or not!
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June 13th, 2008 at 3:21 pm
I do believe Holden and Ford will be using direct injection in their new Commodore and Falcons in 2010 and I wouldn’t be surprised if they also used switching off certain cylinders when in traffic to minimise fuel use. Direct injection allows you to better manage your fuel use.
Hybrid technology is a very short solution to the future use of fossil fuels. At a guess maybe 5 years.
As I mentioned once before in another blog, currently in Australia there is research into the use of LPG with diesel. As I understand, there is a 20% increase in performance of the diesel engine which allow a reduction in the capacity of the diesel motor. Meaning even using less diesel fuel. Could it be possible that we will see 2 litre dual fuel LPG/turbo diesels in Falcons. Sounds a goer to me because diesel engines have one major plus for big cars and that is low end torque.
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June 13th, 2008 at 3:26 pm
Worrying about fuel running costs as a Falcon owner is a bit like worrying about worrying about washing your car after its been in head on crash.
Cars should quote $depreciation/100km along side the fuel consumption. All Aussie made cars would be embarassingly off the scale.
Compare them to diesel residual values.
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June 13th, 2008 at 3:34 pm
^^While a depreciation label would be logistically impossible (could you imagine the disputes when it overestimates retained values after 2 years or 30,000 kms), I do agree that the current resale values for the locally made 6 cylinder sedans is , to put it kindly, quite poor, especially for the private new car buyers.
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June 13th, 2008 at 3:40 pm
Oh and Ferrari, Porsche, Lambo are all crap cars…. or am I just saying that cause I don’t have one. Sounding familiar Ford?
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June 13th, 2008 at 3:53 pm
This spells problems for ford.
people do not associate environmentally friendly vechiles when they think of diesels or Gas. but when they hear Hybird thats a whole other story. Ford have got to come up with some sort of name to advertise there green range of cars they need to emphasing the fact that a diesel is better for the environment than a hybird etc but when people hear diesel they think of a dirty fuel that trucks use… and this will not be easy considering wat type of reputation the hybird has it gets endorsements from all type of people that society looks up to. And we know that you cant rely on fords marketing team, i think when the two australian hybirds are relesased ford sales will decline.
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June 13th, 2008 at 4:00 pm
David Twomey,
Yes I know. The thing is they need to call it something friendly rather than diesel as it isn’t made from oil. Again I can’t understand why it hasn’t been largely publicised. Maybe it will in the not too distant future and it will surely make oil companies very nervous. I will be watching with interest.
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June 13th, 2008 at 4:44 pm
Darren W - great point.
Some people talk about battery replacement yet Toyota hybrid systems have proven to be ultra reliable, dependable and durable.
About 3 weeks ago, JD Powers released thier 2008 UK Quality / Customer Satisfaction Survey which the Prius infact ranked No.1 beating over 100 other models. It was reported that customers are particualrly pleased with the quality and reliablity of the car.
The Prius is also renouned to travel inexcess of 300 000km’s with little or no attention bar regular / scheduled servicing.
Also worth mentioning is that apparently premature battery replacements for all Prius’s that have been sold in Australia over the years including the early models that are now about 10 years old is so minute that it equates to about .3% or less
However, what some clowns have completely neglected to discuss is the fact that modern diesels engines can be extremely expensive to repair due not only to the technology involved but the high pressures associated with the direct injection systems.
Take my word for it … if anything associated with the fuel system (not to mention other components) fail, your wallet ‘WILL’ painfullly know about it.
So … the question i ask - why don’t some of these people who rave on about diesels discuss this expensive fact not to mention Diesel is now about 20c per litre more expensive then Petrol and as demand no-doubt increases over time, you can be ultra sure the gap will only widen.
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June 13th, 2008 at 4:55 pm
australian comapnys are always 10 years behind.Atleast in 2018 ford will be saying that buy 2020 there will be a hydrogen falcon
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June 13th, 2008 at 4:58 pm
Guys, don\’t forget Winslow is Ford\’s Marketing VP, he is just placing marketing spin on essentially the only response Ford Australia CAN put on this situation…
Why? I am fairly confident FoA would dearly love to have a hybrid Falcon - but a hybrid Falcon just won\’t reach market until many years after Toyota 2010 or Holden if at all …Ford Australia got burnt so badly from the AU days that they do not have the resources to do ANYTHING like this, and are unwilling to take the risk, because quite frankly if they get it wrong - say bye bye FoA..
Coupled with the fact, Camry & Zeta are both global platforms and they can much easily take a global hybrid powertrain so any development costs will be spread over a much larger volume - they have the business case to pull it off. Falcon on the other hand is a unique platform which as a platform will be selling probably 5-10 times less in numbers by 2010 then the other two platforms globally - they just cannot justify the development costs
unfortunately FoA are stuck in between a rock and a hard place - until Falcon takes a global platform dont expect a hybrid powertrain anytime soon.
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June 13th, 2008 at 5:02 pm
SuperCujo Says:
June 13th, 2008 at 8:39 am
\”Coal fired power stations, believe it or not, are more efficient than an engine in a car. 36-38% versus 20%, so switching to coal fired power is actually reduces emissions. Add to this that more electricity is coming from renewable or carbon neutral sources\”
Not quite SuperCuji. You have to factor in transmission losses, the electrical motor doesn\’t convert 100% of the batteries power. The battery doesnt store 100% of the energy pumped into it nor does it allow it all to be discharged. Add all those losses up and your better off driving a bell jetranger to work.
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June 13th, 2008 at 5:10 pm
Hydrogen powered stuff needs water. Last time I checked water wasn’t terribly abundant, with half of Australia being in drought. We could use desal, but that takes up a lot of energy and would hike up the cost.
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June 13th, 2008 at 5:18 pm
Unfortunately we will all have to go Nuclear eventually.
Produce as much Hydrogen/electricity as u like with no carbon emissions and enough Uranium for a a couple of Centuries at least. Will be able to hold it over the rest of the world like the Arabs have been with their oil.
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June 13th, 2008 at 5:28 pm
Jez…..hydrogen power will use sea water not POTABLE water!!!!LOL
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June 13th, 2008 at 5:37 pm
Yeah,water has to have impurities for electrolysis to work.
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June 13th, 2008 at 5:40 pm
So great discussion! I agree with everyone in the interim period, Ford really needs to update the LPG system and make it more efficient. No point in having LPG if it’s using twice as much as a petrol system. I’m not sure what the answer to the future is, but NOW if Ford wants to get serious about looking enviro friendly then the LPG has to move up a notch in the efficiency departmant
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June 13th, 2008 at 6:17 pm
“Yeah,water has to have impurities for electrolysis to work.”
yeh, thats true. I guess we could also drink our emissions, coz it’d be pure water.
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June 13th, 2008 at 6:22 pm
E Gas doesn’t use twice as much.
Commodore duel fuel system is injected system and is more efficient both in terms of kws and consumption. Is after market but fitted when you buy so doesn’t void warranty.
Small LPG tank which limits range on LPG between fills compared to 80 litre egas(ute).
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June 13th, 2008 at 6:32 pm
I like that “Twin charged” tech. Direct injected 2 litre four two stage super charger and turbo charger running dedicated LPG in an Ecocharged Falcon.
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June 13th, 2008 at 8:36 pm
Duel fuel system! what a technology?
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June 13th, 2008 at 9:25 pm
Jimbo - firstly the 308 is not, never will be, in the same class of car as a holden commodore or ford falcon, which is what this article is about. Its a reasonably small hatchback. As far as interior space goes, i’m sorry but no it is NOT nearly as big as a commodore or falcon, boot is similar however being a hatch i will give you that. Also the performance doesn’t match, as you said. We are talking about LARGE SEDANS here, not small european hatchbacks. Not that there is anything wrong with a small euro hatch, i use to own one, just saying that it isn’t relevant to what i was saying.
Secondly you say this “fantasy figure of 7-8ltr for a diesel on the freeway?” umm no mate, no i did not, i said a diesel returning around 7l/100km, i didn’t say anything about freeway driving! For the purpose of my comparison of how much it would cost to cover 1000km, i was using ADR standard fuel economy, which is a mixture of city and freeway driving. Even a V8 commodore will do under 10l/100km on the highway mate! That’s not what i was talking about, i was talking about the cost to run a car driving it NORMALLY because most people don’t live on a highway!
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June 13th, 2008 at 9:52 pm
For me right now I would drive a diesel car LPG would be my next option but Hybrid car would be my last option.
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June 13th, 2008 at 11:42 pm
Considering that the MAIN factor in choosing hybrid, or electric as alternatives for power source is to eliminate dependency on “oil” in the future (10~15 year time frame)… I think Ford is either developing something better than electric or… missing the point.
BTW, China’s automotive industry is growing real quick. Now, if you add in about 1 billion new vehicles in the next 5~10 years…. just imagine the demand for oil…
Australia already paying a lot, will probably be seeing $2.50 or $3 a liter….
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June 14th, 2008 at 12:22 am
ive studied all of this for a whole year i was conceptualizing an eco friendly truck for large travel and what i found after my research of all different types of fuels and motor systems was that the electric car with and electric motor and battery’s running of electricity from solar plants, nuclear plants and residential homes that feed unused solar power back into the grid was the best alternative.
as for batteries they have heaps of new ideas that are light and effective from nano tubes to viruses that are batteries i know hard to believe but true.
the market is moving fast now, away from oil and ford just dont have anything in the pipline.
what we need is ultra light cars with small wheel mounted electric motors powered by solar plants and residential solar roof pannels.
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June 14th, 2008 at 12:52 am
Ok Richo, but when you said 1000km I assumed a long freeway journey. My Bad.
But a 308 will accomodate 5 adults comfortably and that is all a Falcon or a Commodore can do.
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June 14th, 2008 at 2:07 am
I run my car on magic crystals
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June 14th, 2008 at 4:34 am
Nik516 - 100% agree with you.
Battery technology is improving at light speed at present. It wasn’t that long ago that all we had were carbon/alkaline/lead acid batteries. Now in quick succession we have NiCad and next Lithium Ion. Carbon nanotube ultracapacitors offer the opportunity to create a near infinite life alternative to batteries with hogh power output and no disposal issues - just need to get the cost down.
All those hybrid naysayers need to understand that the hybrid efficiency is directly linked to battery technology - how? If more energy is available in the on board batteries then this permits IC engine to operate more often at its optimum fuel efficiency torque/RPM point. You’ve all heard of those remarkable stories where a conventional petrol or diesel car driven by someone with a gentle right foot who knows what they are doing is able to deliver incredible efficiencies 3-5 lt/100km.
Trackdaze - transmission efficiencies and electric drive efficiencies are in the high 90’s so not really a factor to worry about. Having said that, I agree that the comment that coal fired power stations running at 36-38% are better than IC engines running at 20% is a bit misleading - coal has inherently greater Co2 intensity than petrol or diesel. But certainly a gas fired Combined cyle gas turbine (using waste heat from gas turbine to generate steam for a steam turbine) at 60% efficiency would generate far less CO2 than a car engine.
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June 14th, 2008 at 10:57 am
would have to be 5 pretty small adults jimbo! Theres a difference between 5 adults “fitting in” the car, and 5 adults being “comfortable” in the car
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June 14th, 2008 at 7:45 pm
Richo, Jimbo is right…
Between Australian Big family cars and the 308, there is only cm’s of difference, what ever you put into the Big aussies you could squeez into the 308. As a matter of fact, the Commodores or falcons aren’t exactly too comfortable for 5 big adults neither… And how often do you drive with 3 big guys in the back?
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June 14th, 2008 at 9:20 pm
If Ford is so keen on Gas and Diesel being the way to the short term future, then why isn’t there a more advanced injection system on E-Gas Falcons, which offer less power loss and improved efficiency. Also why cant a manual transmission be optioned on the E-Gas XR6? afterall isnt the XR supose to be a driver’s car?
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June 15th, 2008 at 12:59 am
Realcars - “Unfortunately we will all have to go Nuclear eventually.”
Haha and one car breaks down the whole city dissappears lol.
I think for the short term definately LPG/Diesel, but for the longer term and continued sustainability, definately hybrid and eventually to a full renewable energy source.
From Ford point of view I can see why they are following this option, as this technology works to a good level! (as Hybrid is still awhile to go to shine). Given their recent profit levels they need to make short term wins and cannot take risks into longer term return based ventures especially when that market has Toyota Aura all around it.
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June 15th, 2008 at 1:37 pm
In the short term hybrids are not the answer as they are way too short term as pollution will still be caused! And in an increasing world population, that means more drivers and pollution will still occur and a nominal slower rate then now!
Hydrogen is the answer………..”Hydrogen, being a fuel that burns cleanly, it can directly address polluting emissions.”
“When you burn hydrogen you produce only water, so there is no CO2 produced, so no impact on greenhouse gas emissions.” (HYBRIDS STILL WILL PRODUCE CO2 EMISSIONS AND ARE STILL RELIANT ON PETROL AND/OR ELECTRICITY).
Seems to me all people are blinded by this fact thinking it is the answer…..its only a stepping stone to next level (e.g. full electric or hydrogen)!
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June 16th, 2008 at 3:57 pm
For the city, I’ll keep riding my bike… and keep my 2.0 litre turbo diesel golf for highway runs. It still averages 4.7 litres per 100 between sydney / melbourne. Go small turbo diesels!
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June 16th, 2008 at 6:13 pm
Golfy,
my predictions into the auto future are quickly becoming a reality, as wheelnut emailed me to tell me my predictions on VE production are also becoming a reality as with concentration on LPG by ford. ha ha ha ha (did that make sense? oh well)
I’d reckon i could name my price if i went around to any auto maker ha ha ha ha ha.
the only thing i say about this, is its 2 yrs too late, but better too late than never i suppose.
they really needed to have the sequential vapour system in it with the FG upgrade if they were as serious as they say
i still dont see whats stopping the 6sp auto being put in it though. i currently have the 5sp manual in mine and its the lack of gear box choice that will se me leave LPG behind when i upgrade very soon (sob sob)
it seems the only sceptics are those that dont have their facts right.
i mean those that think that diesel emitts less stuff into the air than LPG are wrong.
those that think LPG means there has to be a massive power drop and economy increase are wrong
and what about the ones out there that say “but they are still using oil”
well no they are not!!!!
grab an encyclopedia and discover that LPG isnt primarily made from oil. i mean if you have so much time to sit here and whinge about resources, perhaps do a web search and you will then have no reason for your stubborn, ill perceived ways. australia burns off a hell of a lot of gas due to not enough demand.
oh and if any one watched ACA last night, what did you think of the article that declared that we have hundreds of years of oil left???????
oh and i totally love the ones that harp on about what if LPG hits $1.50 per litre????????
well ill tell ya what happens, petrol will at that time be $3.20 per litre and you will be then saying what if LPG hits $3.20 per litre???
all whilst never realising that no matter how far back in history you track it LPG has always benn less than half the price and always will be.
demand has increased massively over the years and the LPG/unleaded price differential has remained the same
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June 16th, 2008 at 6:19 pm
oh and Realcars,
the falcon E Gas doesnt consume more fuel than the duel fuelled commodore.
the old tech system ford uses stil fares alright when it comes to that comparison, obviously helped by the ideal set up of dedicated fuel delivery as opposed to the compromised duel fuel set up.
a dedicated sequential vapour LPG falcon would achieve near identical consumption to its petrol brother, mark my words.
ive seen duel fuelled (compromised) territory’s achieve 13L/100
and SS commodores achieve higher power out puts on LPG than on petrol
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June 16th, 2008 at 7:19 pm
Duel fuel doesnt really have a signifcant decrease in fuel consumption… what it does have is far less loss of power (ie far more practical). The LPG Falcon loses 40kw while the duel fuel Commodore only loses 5kw. These numbers speak for themselves.
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June 16th, 2008 at 7:20 pm
Oh as for Fords comments… Im not suprised, its not a matter of hybrids having no future, more they havent been able to develop anything in this area so lets just say its not the future! The Falcon hybrid project, heavily govt funded, barely got off the ground after years.
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June 17th, 2008 at 9:09 am
Andrew M - there was also a report on 60 minutes which said there is alot of oil to be had in both Canada and Australia.
The problem is unlike regular crude Liquid Oil; the oil in Canada is in the form of Sand Oil and the oil in Australia is in the form of Shale oil.
Both of which are harder to extract than normal oil as there is a considerable amount of mining involved and both of which have a heavy impact on the environment.
Whether or not these processes take over from drilling for Crude Oil when the deposits in the ocean run dry depends on whther or not the government/voters believe its worth further damage to an already unstable environment or leaving it and trying to fix the situation -
The fact Governments around the world are offering incentives for car companies to produce and people to buy hybrids whilst imposing penalties on fuel cars such as Londons Congestion Tax indicates they are leaning more towards a Greener future not Black
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June 17th, 2008 at 6:52 pm
MR T,
you have no idea.
how do you summarise that duel fuels lose less power yet drink more than dedicated models?
your argument is “flawed” as we say around here.
the falcons system shows a greater power difference against its petrol version purely because it hasnt seen any advancements over the past 8yrs.
just track it back 8 yrs and have a look at the power equivalent of the petrol falcon V LPG falcon back then.
the commodore consumes more because it is duel fuel. also are you really that silly to think that if the commodore system was dedicated it would lose a hell of a lot more power.
in basic terms the falcons system is still running “carby” LPG where as the after market system on the commodore is running an “EFI” LPG.
if the commodore was dedicated it would achieve similar consumption results to its petrol equivalent.
if the falcon had “EFI” LPG, it would achieve near identical power and consumption figures to the petrol version.
Wheelnut,
yes i know it takes a bit more to refine the oil through the processes they are now shifting focus to, but now days it is worth it due to the high prices.
just say for eg that the refining from shale and sand cost 1/3 more to get to the product compared to the oil that needs less refining from the wells.
well now that oil has doubled in price 1/3 more isnt that much compared to what it was 10 yrs ago.
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June 17th, 2008 at 7:17 pm
That’s one hyphenated name u got there!
Are u an aristocrat or something?
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June 17th, 2008 at 7:19 pm
I wonder what would be involved and cost to convert a falcon egas system to MPI after market?
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June 17th, 2008 at 7:21 pm
Lets not use excuses that Falcon hasnt been updated… the fact they havent is no doubt because there isnt much advancement to be had! The duel fuel system with its injection system offers more practicality with only 5kw loss of powered compared to 40kw with LPG and it also gives the convenience of regular petrol is LPG is scarce.
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June 17th, 2008 at 7:57 pm
Falcon egas(HAS NO INJECTORS WORKS LIKE A CARBY) could be improved if it was the same type as used on the Commodore(USES GAS INJECTORS SIMILAR TO EFI). Forget the dual fuel thing for a minute TP.
Commodore would be EVEN BETTER on gas if the current system was dedicated i.e no petrol and engine tuned exclusively for gas.
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June 17th, 2008 at 7:59 pm
FALCON EGAS to Commodore sequential vapour system is like comparing a carby engine to a fuel injected engine.
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June 17th, 2008 at 8:12 pm
TPs got plenty of gas
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June 17th, 2008 at 8:25 pm
Good luck REALCARS…………….its TP your referring to.
Good call PHILL!
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June 17th, 2008 at 9:42 pm
dont worry guys TP is a fictional character.
nobody can deliver so many “flawed” arguments and seriously think they are for real.
i mean now he says LPG is scarce????
and you will always see a 40kw difference in power yet on the other hand acknowledge how there are systems that deliver comparible power outputs???
just laugh it off
i reckon he must type this sort of stuf and then sit there and play with himself laughing about how funny he thinks he is
oh we are laughing aswell alright, but it is just NOT WITH YOU (its at you if you didnt get the drift)
(well thats if you know what a drift is in your FWD camry)
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June 17th, 2008 at 9:45 pm
Realcars,
mate i was actually going to find out myself what the cost would be to have a better aftermarket LPG computer fitted to an E-Gas model.
if i can be bothered before i sign the bottom line i will suss it out.
half the stuff is already done with the E-Gas, its just lacking the better brain.
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June 17th, 2008 at 10:14 pm
I agree Andrew M.
There couldn’t be much more to it surely?
All the plumbing is there. Engine internals also suitably modified which is a bonus over the petrol variant.
I don’t know if that means much as a mate has a duel fuel VS and it’s been running gas for last 150,000klms of its 230,000klm life with no probs although it has got a flash lube kit fitted.
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July 10th, 2008 at 9:02 am
Well the petrol companies have it over us, Diesel is more than Petrol, seems to me the answer is Hybrid, I am sure battery replacement will be no more expensive than Diesel parts or Turbos or superchargers, we need cleaner air right!!
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