Road Toll Reduction - A New Approach
27 Nov, 2006
51 Comments 
I was sitting at home last night watching the news about three teenagers that had managed to kill themselves “due to excessive speed” near the Sunshine Coast, and whilst the continuous exposure to road death had left me and countless others completely desensitized to the event, I found it rather surprising what one of the police officers said at the scene of the crash.
“I don’t know what else the Police, RACQ and other motoring organizations can do to make teenagers just SLOW DOWN“
Having fit the bracket of teenagers not so long ago, and being targeted by QLD police on numerous occasions because of the car I drive and the fact that I am not over 40, I thought that perhaps it was time someone really told QLD police (and other police departments in other states) how to slow down teenagers, plus it really annoys me when I read articles like this.
The sad thing is, the police never really ask those who count, they have continued to ignore all forms of communication from us here at Car Advice, much the same at QLD transport whom we had written to in protest of the new QLD rules and regulations which had generated such a massive buzz amongst our readers.
Of course, we are just a blog, we have no say in anything. We don’t reflect the public opinion, after all we are not over 40 (well not all of us), and therefore we are either boring Camry drivers or Hoons. Being on the receiving end of countless speeding tickets myself, I have always felt relatively hostile towards our men in blue and I believe this feeling is mutual amongst those my age. Now don’t frown with disgust, let me explain.
There is a massive problem on our roads, people speed all the time, be it teenagers, or older drivers, speeding happens all the time and thats a fact. The problem is that the police seem to continue to deny the reality of the situation. Speeding happens for so many reasons, most of the time it happens unknowingly, and sometimes it happens deliberately.
I can almost guarantee that every time there is a teenager killed in a car crash, the police immediately say “speed may have been a big factor” whilst, I like the fact that they use the word “may”, it is still very much implied that yes, it was the excessive speed that killed the teenager, and practically no other factors. So what happens? We sink more money down the drain to get more speed cameras and more intuitive ways of trying to intimidate people into slowing down. Bigger fines, more points, waiting down a hill behind a tree with a speed gun, whatever you fancy, they have done it all.
And what does that get us? Absolutely nothing. The Australian Bureau of Statistics has some very useful figures when it comes to road crashes, you can find a huge amount of data and facts here. I wont go over all of it, but the evidence is relatively clear, whilst the number of road deaths has dropped considerably over the last 30 years, the deaths have plateaud in the last 5 or so years which means that the introduction of all these somewhat reactionary laws to limit speed and stop younger drivers driving faster cars has failed todo anything.
The main reasons deaths have come down so much and have now plateaud is due to better car safety, with SRS front/side air bags, electronic braking systems and many other modern day safety features, the chances of surviving a crash have improved significantly. NSW has the worse death toll for any state in Australia, and not suprisingly they have some of the toughest road rules, with fixed speed cameras ran by private companies to limits on the type of cars teenagers can drive. The NSW road death-toll for 2001-2004 is below
- 2001 : 524
- 2002 : 561
- 2003 : 539
- 2004 : 522
Where is the trend? There isn’t one, there is no significant reduction in the death toll at all. QLD transport says that P platers are at a significantly higher risk of having a fatal road accident than open license holders, and they attribute this to speed and inexperience. So based on statistics, this is true, young drivers do tend to get themselves killed more often than their parents. So here is the $1million dollar question. What can they do about it?
Its relatively simple, if you tell a little kid they can’t have the toy/chocolate they want, they will want it more and more and beg for it and cry. Its basic common sense psychology, whilst if you simply give them the toy, they will probably get bored of it and move on (albiet perhaps to bigger toys and the process of appeasement fails). Get the logic? Now can it apply to teenagers on the road? I think so.
In my experience with the police, I have had nothing but a bad attitude and aggressive manners, maybe its cause I am young, maybe its because I drive a turbo charged car, either way, its obvious that the police would rather have me either behind the wheel of a volvo or not driving at all.
Last year in NSW the state government banned P-platers from driving high-powered cars (turbo/supercharged) and from having more than one passenger if they committed a serious driving offence. Did it work? No! 39 people have died in P-plate crashes this year which is more than double the death toll of the same period in 2005. Limits are not the answer.
What makes a teenager drive 150km/hr in a 60 zone at 3am in the morning? Is it testosterone, is it due to his 4 mates in the car cheering him as he is trying to impress them? Is it just sheer stupidity? Or is it because he is street racing? It can be any of these things. But going 150km/hr in a 60 zone doesn’t kill you, its when you lose control and go sideways into a tree/pole/car which kills you. Anyone who has ever lost control of their vehicle would know how scary it is, and once you have found the limit of your vehicle, there are very few occasions where you will be willing to push it that hard.
So here is an idea, whilst the state governments keep pushing new rules to make licensing harder and harder they fail to see the bigger picture. While many young first time drivers can do a reverse parallel park, not many can take a 45′ degree corner at 120km an hour. Now I am not saying we should encourage this sort of behaviour on the road but these are the sorts of things that get people killed. The lack of experience to realize that some things are just impossible in most vehicles is an essential skill, far more important than a reverse parallel park.
Obviously putting all new drivers through an advanced driving course is expensive, I mean you’ll need a proper skid pan, a race circuit, and the willingness of the driver to put their own car (or hire a car) on the track to find its limits. But all these things can be arranged, whats the point of teaching young drivers how to do a reverse park as part of the essential training when they are still unaware of their cars capabilities. Think about it, do you know the exact moment when your car loses traction around a corner?
It always amazes me how many people lose control of their cars in the wet, its as if they don’t realize how much less grip is available in the wet. The government has continued to simply push these ideas away, ignoring them as they are too hard and too expensive to maintain and monitor, it has been shoved into the too hard basket, and so the failures continue while more and more inexperienced drivers die on the road.
Curiosity is a bitch, and finding the limits of your car is a curse on every young male (and some female) drivers - myself included, I have just been one of the lucky ones that has never had to experience the horrible consequences. So I’ve said a lot here, but what it really comes down to isn’t blaming and fining young drivers for their lack of experience, but making sure that they get this experience in a safe environment where they can see and test the limits of their car and realize that once you cross the limits of your car, you put your life and the lives of all those around you in danger.
The entire licensing system needs to be scraped and redesigned. There needs to be some attention paid to the following facts:
- All drivers must go through an advanced driving course to learn the limits of their vehicle and also to realize the difference between AWD, FWD, RWD cars.
- Being able to reverse parallel park, do a three point turn and pass your license test doesn’t make you a good driver.
- Passing your test in a Toyota Echo / Suzuki Swift doesn’t mean you can drive a Toyota Landcruise or other 4WDs.
- Passing your test in a Toyota Echo / Suzuki Swift doesn’t mean you can drive a Nissan Skyline GTST/GT-R (and any other performance car)
- Not all cars are the same, the stopping distance for old cars and new cars (specially sports cars) varies significantly, making most speed limits completely useless in most cases (I am taking into account reaction time).
- Every driver must redo their license every 5 years, there are countless “mature” drivers on the road who have forgotten how to drive.
- Those who wish to drive a 4WD/High performance car must conduct their licensing test in THAT vehicle.
- Police need to stop targeting teenagers simply because they are teenagers.
I beg the state transport ministers to please consider these suggestions and realize that there is no short term solution to save young people from their own curiosity and nature - and as with everything, education is the key.
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November 28th, 2006 at 10:27 am
I’m 22 and in the process of getting my license. It seems like I shouldn’t even bother because once I’m a P-plater, there’s gonna be so many retarded rules. I won’t be able to drive at night, I’ll have a limit to my passengers etc. Well that’s f$%king convenient! Why drive at all? It’s not fair on young people who actually drive safely. Everyone is being punished.
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November 28th, 2006 at 12:08 pm
Well thats the problem with the way the government approaches the problem. I mean you shouldn’t say “people who actually drive safe” cause that method of argument wont work, there just needs to be significantly better training and driver education including advanced driving courses for all new & existing drivers.
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December 3rd, 2006 at 10:04 am
i agree with some of the points, but you have to rememeber the P plate, and particularly L platers just do not have the skills to be able to feel a cars limits
pushing your foot down on the accelerator is a much easier and to their eyes, more manageable way of pushing the boundaries
a friend of mine is on her L’s and i often drive with her and its made me realise things
my first car was a low powered but RWD car…. i scared myself a few times in that discovering what over and under steer actually was… the fact i discovered this at relatively low speeds, meant that when i finally got my 220kw awd turbo car that i always wanted, time and experience meant i knew how to handle understeer at 100km+ on the track…
it IS a hard situation to sort out, telling P platers they don’t know how to handle cars isn’t going to go down to well, i think enforcing the power output isn’t such a bad idea, it certainly didn’t cause any problems for me having 4cyl cars for the first year or two
but now having 6 years driving experience under my belt, and driving with an L plater i can see exactly how it happens. when i talk to her about speeding i don’t say “don’t speed cause you might get caught” - which is pretty much the attitude with police
i explain how your braking distance is massively increased, i let her know when shes gone into a roundabout too hot or in the wrong gear and she can feel the car loses grip etc. i think driving has been broken down way to much into the ‘go pedal + stop pedal’ mentalility and away from the basic understanding of 4 rubber wheels on roadway
while advanced driver training might not be the way to go, it only takes one or two experiences with oversteer and understeer to learn where the limits are, and i’d be willing to bet that in alot of crashes one or both of the above happened before they crashed
the faster you go, the less handing ability your car has, so be smart about how you drive, get your eyes off the speedo needle 100% of the time!
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December 4th, 2006 at 12:14 am
A friend of mine, Dr,/Mr, Nigel Fox 65 died in a road accident last Friday somewhere in NSW. If anyone can tell me any details………….
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December 4th, 2006 at 10:21 am
Thanks Marty for your comment,
I agree with what you say, I believe that there needs to be far more emphasis put into making new drivers realize that speed isn’t all that causes accidents, Its important to know what to expect for your car at certain situations.
I agree that the go pedal stop pedal mentality really needs to be addressed! Its not as simple as keep under 60 and you’ll be right!
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December 4th, 2006 at 4:45 pm
I agree with all your comments, but you have to be careful with “advanced” driving courses. Many of them are not run very well and people come out of them thinking that they are now the best drivers on the planet. This mentality can get dangerous. There are really no requirements that I’m aware of that must be adhered to when running courses.
It’s interesting to note in Germany and what the government does there. It costs approxiately 2000 euro to get your licence as you have to attend a drving school. They really take driving skills seriously, perhaps we should too!! They teach drivers a lot more than how to park!
In terms of young drivers, I often see a common theme in their crashes. Single vehicle/wet road/on a bend/over correction/a tree. I have one solution and that’s ESP. Electronic Stability Program should be compulsory on every new car sold in OZ. This device is an absolute life saver and I think it is the best inovation since the seat belt. This formula one inspired technology is featured commonly in more expensive cars, but now that Holden has made it standard in the new Commodore, let’s hope other manufacturers will follow.
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December 28th, 2006 at 1:11 pm
I feel exactly the same as the author of this Blog. I agree 100% with every word written.
Unfortunately, I also think it is wasted breath.
What hope do we have when speed camera revenue is factored into the various state budgets…? It’s a source of income, another tax if you like.
Driver education will save lives but will cost the state governments money both directly and indirectly. Blaming us ‘the uneducated driver’ is free. Fining us and brainwashing us to think that wiping of 5 will save a life is a cash cow. If 5 klms and hour can save a life then what better reason for setting up a speed camera to fine us for doing 3kph over the limit! The governments are committed to the lucrative business of saving us from ourselves and justifying it through commercial campaigns.
Throughout the history of mankind, the life of an individual has been a cheap commodity. It still is. We’re not being whipped into building a pyramid anymore but we are being manipulated and programmed to believe that our salvation lies under the speed limit. In reality, it lies in having an intimate knowledge of our own limits behind the wheel.
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January 3rd, 2007 at 9:02 am
I have never read so much rubbish in my life.
First of all, your comment that NSW has the worst road toll in all the states. Wrong. The Northern territory has the worst by 300% over NSW. You have to base road deaths on population figures. So the NT is far worse. To make your maths easier, it is 3 times that of NSW based on population.
Guess what state had far less road rules (until now) and unlimited speed limits.
Why is it that new young drivers are killing themselves 3 times faster than older drivers, as a percentage of the driver population? Even worse than those over 85 years of age.
How do police know or suspect speed was a factor in a crash involving fatalities and make a comment to that effect?
Well, when a vehicle hits a tree at 150kph+, the human body stops quite suddenly. So suddenly, in fact, that it tends to explode at that speed. Often the skull explodes and the brains mash out. The intestines below the rib cage (rib cages tend to stay reasonably intact) burst out. This will include kidneys, liver, stomack, bowels etc. Also some or all limbs will be ripped off. This how police can judge speed was a factor. This is usually after a car with 3 or 4 teenagers hits a tree or telegraph pole.
If you don’t believe me, pop down to the next accident and see if they will let you shift the plastic tarps so you can have a look.
And I know you speedsters don’t want to know this, but every 5kph over 50kph doubles your chance of being killed in an accident. That is a proven fact.
By the way, speed cameras, seat belts and breath testing have reduced the road toll from the 1970’s, from over 3,000 per annum (highest was 3,790) to 1,700 per annum. Yet in that time the population of Australia has doubled and the number of licensed drivers using our roads has increased 3 fold. The number of hours and distance traveled on the roads per driver has increased by 30%.
Based on the 1970 figures, if the governments had not taken the action of implementing stiffer road rules and larger penalties, our road toll would now be at 12,000 per annum instead of 1,700.
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January 3rd, 2007 at 9:22 am
Now paul,
what you just wrote is the biggest load of crap I’ve ever read!
Countless studies in the UK have shown that Speed Cameras have no affect in saving lives,
and if you for a second want to use the figures from the 1970s to show that less people have been killed on the road since then, then mate, you have no idea because in the last 37 years, the car industry has increased safety standards dramatically.
There are no so many more safety standards in a car that accidents are far less fatal. If you look at the ABS statistics, you will notice that infact there are now more accidents than ever before, but due to vehicle safety, the number of deaths is far lower on a death/accident ratio compared to the 70s.
Also going 5km/hr over the speed limit does not in any sort of way double you chances of dying, these absolute nonesense statistics and so called ‘facts’ by transport authorities are baseless. Every car is different, just because a 1986 model corolla doubles its breaking distance for every 10km over the limit, doesnt mean a brand new car with all the latest brake technology does the same!
The government needs to realize, that blanket, baseless rules are not going to solve the problem.
You will see this year that the NT road toll will infact increase as oppose to decrease, this has always been the case where speed limits have been introduced around the world.
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January 3rd, 2007 at 3:19 pm
alborz
Here are the facts:
“The Department of Statistical Science at University College London was commissioned by the BBC Radio Four Today Programme to write a report [3] about UK speed cameras and also Traffic Calming. His report criticises some of the methodologies used in some speed camera studies (including the DfT three year report) and in particular he mentions the RTM effect.
A followup four-year independent study commissioned by the DfT [12] concluded “after allowing for the long-term trend, but without allowing for selection effects (such as regression-to-mean) there was a 22% reduction in personal injury collisions (PICs) at sites after cameras were introduced. Overall 42% fewer people were killed or seriously injured. At camera sites, there was also a reduction of over 100 fatalities per annum (32% fewer). There were 1,745 fewer people killed or seriously injured and 4,230 fewer personal injury collisions per annum in 2004.” In addition, the four year report includes statistical modeling of the RTM effect based on a reduced set of camera sites for which suitable data was available (see [13] appendix H — tables H3 and H7). Rural roads were excluded from the RTM modeling, because of difficulties establishing representative models for such roads, although the report does state it is likely that RTM effects will be larger for rural roads because expected collision frequencies tend to be lower than on urban roads. The report urges caution in drawing too strong conclusions from a small data set. Based on the RTM modeling undertaken the report suggests that for personal injury collisions (non-serious collisions resulting in injuries) a 16.2% reduction in injuries was due to the cameras, a 6.7% reduction was due to regression to the mean and a 7.9% reduction was due to the general downward trend in accidents over the period. For fatal and serious collisions, the modeling estimated a 10.4% reduction in such collisions due to the cameras, a 34.8% reduction due to regression to the mean and a 9.3% reduction due to general downward trends in accident rates.”
This UK trend is very close to the real trends in Australia
The double your chances of being killed for every 5kph over 50kph statistic are not from any government. It was a study commissioned by the NRMA, using the Australian Acadamy if science. URL is:
http://www.science.org.au/nova/058/058key.htm
Facts that you don’t like should not be dismissed as crap unless you can demonstrate they are crap. Your so called ‘facts’ are pure fiction. Unless you can show me the ‘countless studies’ you speak of?
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January 3rd, 2007 at 3:30 pm
for a start, do you possibly believe that the british government are going to bad mouth their own speed cameras? (talking about the DFT report here)
there is no point to argue with ur 5km over argument, because its simply not true, that article u point at is not a real world test, many factors are involved in brraking distance..
anyway I am not going to list 100 different studies, but if your interested, have a look at TopGears website, they have a few cited studies that show that speed cameras have absolutely no affect in saving lives but here are somethings you may wish to read :
http://www.roadsense.com.au/shortversion.html
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-2539314.html
The problem is simple paul, drivers in performance cars, like myself, will never be bullied away by speed cameras or fear campaigns that the government pushes down on us, the speed camera phenomenon is simple, its to raise money, not to save lives. Speed cameras dont even work on bends! and thats where people kill themselves.
Education is far more essential to stop people killing themselves than tougher restrictions, you are an idiot if you don’t believe that!
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January 3rd, 2007 at 3:32 pm
Also have a look at some REAL facts paul.
http://www.roadsense.com.au/facts.html
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January 3rd, 2007 at 4:48 pm
alborz,
First of all, if you read my quote, it was not from the DFT but commissioned by media (BBC)using Department of Statistical Science at University College, London.
Glad to read you have a performance car and won’t allow yourself to be bullied by speed cameras….which is the real problem you have, as you have not shown one shred of authentic statistical evidence to prove any of your points.
Which shows you do not a performance brain to go with your performance car…..what a great combination….I have helped drag quite a few bodies out of setups like yours.
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January 3rd, 2007 at 4:52 pm
right.. so those links I posted, and all the stats showing absolutely no reduction in road toll was just.. nothing right?
its only accurate when it supports ur point of view?
your argument makes no sense and it shows exactly what i’ve been saying.. you are simply putting anyone that drivers a car that dares to be fast in the “idiot” category.. this is exactly the problem that Australia faces in fighting the increasing road toll..
thanks though paul, you really proved my point :)
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January 3rd, 2007 at 5:03 pm
Hahaha, paul you are an absolute f@#king moron. Don’t you realise that the point here is more education will eventually be the main factor in saving lives?
People like you don’t deserve to vote, as you seem so stubborn not to even try to comprehend for a second that perhaps speed isn’t the biggest killer on our roads.
I bet you also merge onto the highway at 70 in an 80 zone.
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January 3rd, 2007 at 6:49 pm
alborz,
None of your links were worth quoting. I have seen that crap before and they generalisations cherry picking selected data to try and justify their stance. Such as using “experts studying” or “academics concluded” without mentioning who they were or their qualifications or what studies their data came from.
You still have not answered my substantiated data with any rebuttal worthy of consideration.
jason,
Education is important, but more important is driver attitude. Obviously education hasn’t worked in your case. If you cannot understand that speeding is one of the major factors in road deaths, than no further proof of your stupidity is required. Certainly, drink driving is also a major cause of accidents, but drink driving at 5kph isn’t going to kill you, is it.
By the way, I do merge a highway at 100kph and consider people who enter at less than 90kph should be fined just as much as a driver exceeding speed limits by 20kph.
But I waste my time, speaking to those who know it all and cant be educated.
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January 3rd, 2007 at 7:05 pm
if someone is cought speeding via speed camera, and there a hazard and what ever other argument paul wants to use, depending on what degree, and whilst it may not deter them from speeding, if they get cought enough and loose their licence then there is the threat eliminated.
have to question the motive of revenue raising when they post signs warning you, and sometimes just the signs with no actual camera.
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January 7th, 2007 at 10:59 pm
[Quote Paul Elbourne]”First of all, your comment that NSW has the worst road toll in all the states. Wrong. The Northern territory has the worst by 300% over NSW. You have to base road deaths on population figures. So the NT is far worse. To make your maths easier, it is 3 times that of NSW based on population.
Guess what state had far less road rules (until now) and unlimited speed limits.”[End Quote]
Aren’t statistics a wonderful thing Paul. How about you have a look at the statistics that disprove your statements. Like this -
These are from the NT Government Website - I’ll get the link soon.
[Quote]”Appendix 1: Tables - analysis of crash statistics, Table 9: Speed - fatalities and serious injuries.
In the period between 2000 and 2005, there were a total of 299 fatalities, of which 50 were speed related (17%). There were 2696 serious injuries, of which 371 were speed related (14%).
In the period, 19 fatalities occurred in unlimited areas (38% of speed-related)), whereas 31 occurred in limited areas (62% of speed related).
Of the speed related serious injuries, 113 occurred in unlimited (30%) and 258 (over double) occurred in limited (70%).[End Quote]
Logic concludes that the majority of speed-related accidents occur on roads where a speed limit is imposed.
Lets take this a bit further shall we. Of the 299 fatalities, only 6.3% of speed related fatalities occurred in unlimited, whereas 10.3% of speed related fatalities occurred in limited.
Of the 2696 serious injuries, only 4% of speed related serious injuries occurred in unlimited, whereas 9.5% of speed related serious injuries occurred in limited.
For the record, “serious injuries” is defined as “injuries serious enough to
be admitted to hospital”. Therefore, a small bump on the old noggin (which is enough for you to be admitted to hospital for observation) is a serious injury.
Also the definition of speed almost always “probable speed related” not “actual speed related”
The word probable does not relate to “fact” only “might be” or “likely”
How do you like those statistics?
Andrew
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January 8th, 2007 at 12:53 pm
I was just interested to see what the new laws QLD were introducing and stumbled across this site. I really like that there are forums like this out there.
My opinion is- I think education is the key but not necessarily 100 hours. I had to pay for all of my lessons, so if I had to do 100 hours at $50 a lesson that would cost me $5 000. Not cool, I could buy a car with that.
Luckily enough for me, my driving instructor was also a defensive driving instructor and during our lessons he would teach me some it. This helped me a lot, but if I lost control of my car I would not know how to correct it.
Someone once said to me “assume that everyone else on the road doesn’t know how to drive” It’s terribly cynical but its helped my view on the road.
I’ve been in a car accident and nearly died, and it wasn’t me at fault (I’m 19 and have been driving for over a year), it was the other cars. I was turing right out of a shopping centre drive way and he had his indicator on saying he was going to enter where I was, so I went but he decided not to turn into the shopping centre. He hit my drivers side door (where I was) at 80km an hour. He was 60. I spent a week in hospital and am still recovering from it all.
So, my point is, it doesn’t matter how old you are, but I think that it wouldn’t hurt to introduce some tough laws and maybe trial them first. OR, the QLD government should hold an open forum and invite everyone along, especially young people.
I drive a Subaru Impreza and it would have to be one of the best cars I’ve driven, but probably because I know what it can do and when not to push it. Its taken me a while to learn it but now I feel so comfortable in it and pretty secure that in case of an accident it will look after me. But, also, as I said before, I haven’t been taught how to correct an out-of-control car, or what to do if it slips on a wet road, I have no idea and this scares me.
I think prehaps at high-school they should introduce drivers ed, and teach us about road safety etc so when it comes to driving, we may be able to apply it. I know for my learners test, I only learnt what I had too and for my driving test. I passed first time coz I know how to reverse in a straight line and reverse park. Completely ridiculous that this is how we judge competent drivers.
I feel like I’ve prattled on for ages but just another point I want to make. I like the idea of RBT’s and speed camera’s, although they do raise revenue, at least drivers have the mentality of what if I get caught. The other night, I was driving home from the city about 3am and I came across a RBT, I just had a huge night with my mates but I was Designated driver, so it was all cool. BUT, when I got pulled over to be tested, 5 other cars were pulled over too and I was the only one who was allowed to keep driving. In other words, I was driving at least 20 minuntes on the same road with people that had too much to drink and were driving a car, MY GOD! This is not cool and something has to be done about this.
I think the state should subsidise lessons and driving education and defensive driving and even hold workshops on cars.
There’s no easy solution but in my accident, it wasn’t me doing the wrong thing it was someone else, and even more ironic was upon waking up in hospital, the police wanted to speak to me first and I found out that they tested me for drugs and alcohol and not the other driver. Why? Because I was the young one, so they presumed I was at fault.
All I can say is, drive safe and don’t do silly things to impress people. As a female, I am not impressed by guys sliding around corners sideways, if they hit another car, chances are it wont be them hurt. Just think before you act and take care.
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January 8th, 2007 at 12:59 pm
Thanks a lot for sharing all that with us Kat,
I, like your self drive around Brisbane and also own an Impreza (WRX) and I can assure you that out of all the cars you could’ve bought, the Impreza is one of the safest (specially if its an AWD).
However I absolutely and completely endorse the need for an open car forum for teenagers to come and express their opinions about the attitude of QLD government takes to young drivers. In a way this website is a start, but there needs to be a physical perhaps, bi annual event whereby people like us can come and express our opinions and suggestions to help make our roads safer!
Again, thanks for your comment!
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January 8th, 2007 at 11:21 pm
I completely agree!!
I’m a uni student studying politics and law and I think that the best way for this physical forum to come about is for everyone to write into their local or state politician, harrass them by phone/email and don’t give up till we have somewhere we can go and express our opinions. Naturally, the forum would include people from all perspectives and all sides of the argument; QLD Transport, The State Government, electives from the Federal Government, RACQ representatives, NRMA, Car enthusiasts and the list goes on, but also include people from the public, young drivers, learner drivers, older drivers, anyone who has a point to make.
It sounds really liberal and wishy-washy but if everyone lobbies together, eventually they have to listen to us. I don’t oppose all of the new laws but where in all the research did they go out there and speak to the people that it would most affect.
I have friends who are yet to get their P’s and I’m stressing to them to hurry up and get it before July. Its crazy what it will be like and I’m so glad I don’t have to go through it.
I promise that I will write into my local memeber for the State government and the miniser for Transport and demand a public forum or something similar where we can go and express our opinions.
I’ll try and do up a general letter and post it on here and people can print it out and use if they want. Lol, sorry I have a habit of taking things too seriously but as a young person we are being treated unfairly and in this democracy we have every right to stand up and want to be counted.
Who’s with me! lol, sorry. I’m a law student, it has to be that.
Well, drive safe and keep up the good work with this online forum, I only stumbled across it but its good to see that people care about what’s going on.
And my Subaru is awesome. I love him!! Thanks for your comment.
Kat
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January 15th, 2007 at 12:58 pm
Pop quiz. If you were going to be a passenger in a car that was to drive around Australia who would you want behind the wheel?
A/. A person who had just graduated to their full licence having received all the government training available to them at the time. This person would never exceed the speed limit but they would execute a lovely reverse park and indicate at least 7 ‘clicks’ before turning.
B/. A professionally trained driver who had realised early that there isn’t any government training available so they educated themselves through advanced driving courses, track and skid pan days. This person knows how to control a car in a slide, the difference between over and under-steer, how to emergency brake, how to control a car on a wet or loose surface. This person may at times drive a little over the posted limit (not hooning) This may be to over-take safely or reduce their exposure in the oncoming lane when overtaking or possibly to accelerate out of a potential problem or danger.
Who would you choose as your chauffer?
My thought for the day…
Will “wiping off 5″ save a life? Maybe, but isn’t it better to teach drivers to avoid hitting hard objects, rather than hitting them 5kph slower…?
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January 16th, 2007 at 6:53 pm
Dear Rick,
You have asked about a car accident involving Dr/Mr Nigel Fox in NSW. Nigel is my Dad and he died when his car hit a road train on 1st december 40km outside Goondoowindi, he was on his way to Mildura. He had been living in Toowoomba with Tracey, Ben & Soph for 2 years and they were in the midst of moving back to Mildura. I’d love to know how you knew my Dad.
Jenni
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January 21st, 2007 at 1:04 pm
It is people like Paul who made my blood boil.
But you highlight the problem, too many people believe government hype with a religious zeal.
Perhaps we should park all our cars in the garage, and then at 0km they would be safe.
The improvements since the 1970 have got bugger all to do with speed cameras. Try airbags, abs, crash testing of cars. If you have ever seen a crash with a mid-seventies car compared to a modern car (say a new renault) it is clear than breath testing or cameras didn’t have much to do with it. Seatbelts certainly do help though.
Persecuting people to raise money (driving at 111 in a 110 limit does not make you a killer - if you believe that you shouldn’t be allowed to drive on principle) will not work in the long term. You will end up in a situation like the UK where once getting demerit points was a big deal (and socially embarrasing). Now it is the norm, so if it becomes normal to be a speeder how can you demonise it?
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February 5th, 2007 at 2:58 pm
Yeah fuk you you fuking losers.i coudlnt give a shit about these new rules.ill do wat i like.im a 17 year old woman and i am tuff and can dow at i like you sluzzmuzzas.PEACE OUT FUCKERSZZZZZ
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March 14th, 2007 at 3:06 pm
ok first of all your all a bunch of little girls. the person that wrote the original article was correct. braking distance changes with every car. i have a 2006 suzuki gsxr 1000 with cross drilled and slotted rotors that only weighs 364 pounds. do you think my braking distance doubles with every 5 Km/h i go over 50? im gonna have to go with FUCK NO you retard. now try my 90 ford mustang convertible 302ci 5 lug conversion 4 wheel disk conversion car? are the braking distance increase ratios going to be the same as my bike? you people that fall for your governments stupid generalized propaganda are just sheep. you want to know what REALLY causes accidents? dumb fucks like the people bad mouthing the man who wrote this article and tried to bring a little education to people. you bastards that are calling this guy a moron are the same people who do 15 mph under the speed limit while in the fast lane talking on their cell phone. the same dumb bitches that give ME THE FINGER when i pass them on the center line. on my motorcycle i HAVE TO GO FASTER THAN EVERYONE ELSE. not because im a speed demon (which i am) but because if im on a higway with three lanes all going the same way among any type of traffic and i go exactly the same 15 under all you morons on your cell phones are im going to be in at leaqst 3 peoples blind spots. not only that your cell phone blocks your view to your left not to mention all the fat built up around your face from lack of physical activity and wolfing big macs while not leaving your car inhibit your vision also. ever been rearended on a motorcycle? well i have. so i also pull all the way up at red lights between all traffic. so if you REALLY want to avoid accidents and save lives ill give you the best peice of advice GET OUT OF THE FAST LANE IF YOU DUMB FUCKS ARENT GOING AT LEAST A LITTLE OVER THE SPEED LIMIT, PASSING SOMEONE (DO IT QUICKLY AND LOOK BEFORE CHANGING LANES), OR ON YOUR GODDAMN CELL PHONE (OR EATING) follow those rules and get the fuck out of the way and i guarantee you will save lives. btw if you give a bike the finger for passing you while you werent paying attention or just playing defence expect to get followed to wherever your going and beaten within an inch of your life or get a fucking window broken. because your inattention and lack of speed is what gets us killed. conclusion. GET THE FUCK OUT OF THE WAY
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March 18th, 2007 at 7:59 pm
I used to drive like you once. One day, you’ll drive like me!
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May 15th, 2007 at 10:08 am
hi. paul smells like chicken…
conclusion, i agree with everything everyone said… except Paul..
=)
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May 15th, 2007 at 9:27 pm
I was pulled over and fined not long ago, the officer blatantly told me “I wouldn’t of bothered pulling you over but I noticed you were a P-plater”.
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May 17th, 2007 at 6:49 pm
Well said, couldnt have said it better myself.
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May 17th, 2007 at 10:35 pm
Its so frustrating watching our stupid government continue to throw money at a problem which they clearly have no idea how to fix!
I think one of the main problems is that the ‘Australian culture’ seems to encourage teenagers to hoon about in their old commodores with a 3.5-inch exhaust and backyard chopped springs. Whilst the majority of teenagers are competent drivers (at least that I know of) there’s an increasing amount of teens who have no idea how dangerous it is to get their adrenalin fix on the roads.
Having started track driving at a very young age in a whole variety of cars (Honda Civics to BMW M cars and modded GTRs), I very quickly learned heaps about how a car behaves on the limit of grip, and this has helped me become a better driver on the roads, especially on low grip surfaces (rain, oil patches, etc) where most people just spin out and crash due to their lack of experience.
I really do agree with some of the suggestions in the article, and that there is a real need for the community to ditch their idiotic stereotypes and reach out to teenagers. After all, aren’t they supposedly trying to protect teenagers from themselves?
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May 18th, 2007 at 10:28 am
Just a question; what’s so hard about keeping to a speed limit? Ignore the advisory signs and drive to the speedo in your car. If you get pulled over you can honestly say “I was driving to the speed limit.”
Why do you have to do 120 in a 60 zone? Even cops aren’t allowed to unless they’ve got permission. I know cops who’ve been punished for speeding to get to home invasions.
In my opinion using public roads are a privilege, not a right. If you have issues with the rules, catch a bus. I call it a privilege because you have to pay taxes and get licences to drive. Think of it like a club; you have to pay to get in, and if you act up you get kicked out.
Alborz you said
“..drivers in performance cars, like myself, will never be bullied away by speed cameras or fear campaigns that the government pushes down on us, the speed camera phenomenon is simple, its to raise money, not to save lives.”
In my opinion, that’s the kind of attitude that gets people killed. It isn’t about bullying; it’s about doing what they can to control a problem that’s out of their control. Some of the time their actions are questionable, but some of the time they get it right. If a well signed camera slows people down in a known black spot, I think it’s done it’s job.
If you buy a performance car, spend some money and take it to the track for your jollies. Stop being cheap and putting other people at risk when you feel like pushing your envelopes.
What’s the point of buying a performance car? Most of them aren’t fuel economical and are expensive to run when you consider tyres and spares. If you say it’s your choice and you should have the freedom to buy what you want, then great. Just don’t subject me to your mistakes.
I own a motorcycle myself and use it as my regular commute. I also go on track days when I want to stretch it’s legs and have some fun. If you think young people in cars have a chip on their shoulders when it comes to police attention, try talking to anyone in the bike fraternity.
People like Paul probably live with the consequences of other peoples’ actions everyday. I know ambos and trauma nurses who’ve changed so much from having to deal with kids who think they’re bullet proof and are entitled to drive 200kw cars.
Back to my original question; what’s so hard about keeping to a speed limit?
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May 18th, 2007 at 10:45 am
Terry Said :
“If a well signed camera slows people down in a known black spot, I think it’s done it’s job.”
I 100% agree mate, I am all for Speed Cameras in blackspots, the problem is Police are abusing their power, they are waiting down hills on roads where accidents do not occur,
I do take my car to the track, and I agree 100% that public roads are not for drag racing and speeding,
however here in QLD, the QLD government doesn’t like us on their tracks anyway, have a read of this,
http://www.caradvice.com.au/22.....thusiasts/
So they are pushing us of the track and onto public roads.
Good on you QLD government.
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May 18th, 2007 at 11:13 am
Cheers alborz. That was a prime example of how they get it wrong. Simple solution though would be to go elsewhere. That way they wont make any money from from speeding fines (if you don’t speed) and using their track.
Down here you can pay a premium to ride the Island, or pay a bit less and ride somewhere like Calder park. One is as much fun as the other IMO (though nothing really beats the Island).
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May 18th, 2007 at 11:59 am
Hi Terry,
yep we do go elsewhere, there are other places togo, but it goes to show the attitude of QLD government towards car enthusiast.
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June 3rd, 2007 at 7:29 am
Als es zuerst herauskam, war es $1200.
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June 15th, 2007 at 9:36 pm
I agree with Terry. What is so hard about keeping to a speed limit? Speed limits are not about safety, If the issue was safety then the limits would be much lower. Speed Limits are about managing risk. The faster you go the higher the risk.
If you like paying good hard earned money into the Government coffers when you don’t need to then go right ahead and keep paying. As for me, I dont like paying taxes that I don’t need to.
As I said before, “I used to drive like you once, one day you will drive like me.”
Cheers
Ian.
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July 5th, 2007 at 12:22 am
Its funny, but I have been saying this sort of stuff for 15 years and I am only just over 40. For driver training we should be looking at how pilots are trained and developing similar systems for all drivers. Being certified on a class of vehicle before being allowed to driver it would dramatically improve safety. Extend it to vehicle & license interlocks with biometrics and things would be much closer to fool proof. However no government has the guts to make these changes.
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July 8th, 2007 at 4:38 pm
You present some good points. However I would like to mention that you would have to view those figures on a per capita basis to make any meaningful conclusion - the population growth rate in south east Queensland, for example, is rediculously high - so I would be surprised if I didn’t see an increase in the road toll.
Most people know how to ‘control’ a car - but when it comes to actually ‘driving’ a car, most people come up severely lacking.
Right from proper cornering techniques and maintaining and shifting balance to knowing how to release locked up brakes in a non-ABS car.
Query many young drivers and ask them: “What is ABS? What is traction control? What is Active Stability Management? What does a LSD do? At what speed does the traction control and active stability management on your car cut out?”
Most of them will not be able to answer you. Some may be able name what ABS is - either saying Anti-Lock Braking System or Anti Brake-Skid - which have both been used in car magazines and news paper reviews. Some will be able to rearrange the questions to say: “It’s a management system which actively manages the stability of your car,” or “It controls the traction of the vehicle.”
To the final question, you will most likely get the response: “It cuts out?”
Starting by educating young drivers on these features, what they do, how they keep you safer, and what it’s like to drive without all these things, would save an incredible amount of lives.
Young drivers, just into their first early 90’s car, may have seen someone in a more recent model do all sorts of interesting things. In a monkey-see-monkey-do manner, they may try to emulate these things - not realising how the recent model driver was assisted by his ABS system, Traction Control, Active Stability Management, and some fancy new Viscous Limited Slip Differential or some such thing (I personally think VLSD kills all fun) - not to mention his experience.
It’s ironic how so many people have these features in their cars but have no idea what they actually do. Young people no lesser.
I was lucky enough to do a defensive driving course about 3 months before getting my licence. Although I knew what all these things did before I did the course, it was amazing how my classmates had me clear up some of their misunderstanding of their functions.
To think that so many youth get on the road without even a basic education on the functioning of a car scares me.
These things should be learnt along with the road-rules - before the drivers even get behind the wheel.
Road rules are only half the matter.
And you shouldn’t be angry because you got a speeding ticket, that’s your stupid fault - you should be angry because cops are always c@#$s.
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November 19th, 2007 at 9:29 pm
Easy to have a go at the young fellas but lets look at some other dangerous fuckers on the road. Old people. I am one of these young cunts (25) with a 200kw car.(toyota soarer). Also until recently i was using my road bike as a primary means of transport. i’ve neally been wiped off the road a few times while doing the speed limit and i can tell you it wasn’t young fellas neally side swipping me to my death, it was little old betsy or bob, or some fuckin forign idiot or worse and the most dangerous cunt of all these fucks…..a fuckin bus driver. I have and do thrash my vechicle on public roads but i carefully choose somewhere where the pigs and the public arn’t. so i guess there fuckin laws are promoting safety after all. Accidents happen when people don’t pay attention, or lose control. If most older peoples cars lose traction, now there learning. Barstard of a time to find out how to correct your vechicle. because they haven’t dropped skids and fishtailed there arses off for fun they have no fucking clue what to do. most young people these days have a fuckin lot better chance of controling there vechicle in an emergency situation then there parents, because of such behaviour thats considered hooning. If a cheap place was provided for us to do the things our fathers encouraged us to enjoy it might help,,,,,,but your never gonna stop young men from frying the tires and sliding it sideways. even my girl drops the odd skid. Hackies are cool. next time your up my street rip us a big old hack and i’ll raise my finger to you. Not the middle one the thumb mate. young fellas drift on. just don’t do it at high speeds or in populated areas where if you fuck it someone’s gonna get hurt.
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July 13th, 2008 at 2:34 pm
Where has Mr Paul Elbourne gone now that the NT road toll is the worst in 10 years, and getting worse. Perhaps he can give us some more stats how all these new laws have helped the NT road toll.
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September 3rd, 2008 at 10:26 am
This law is absurd for people like us… I mean I was overseas student in australia and was driving freely with my Overseas license. But now I am a permanent resident and now I can’t drive. I have to get NSW full license for that. and I went to get it but then they asked me for more documentation and things like that which is not easy to get. I have been driving for more than 11 years now but now since I am a permanent resident of Australia means I can no longer drive with my overseas license and have to drive with L plate - again means I will be targeted and targeted number of times and will be counted as a immature driver….
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