Are Ford and Holden really scared of the Toyota Aurion?
November 10, 2006 by Alborz Fallah
I know some of you might be sick to death of hearing about the Toyota Aurion, but here is the thing, its a big DEAL! I know I would have probably said the same thing when the god awful Avalon came out some 5 years ago, we all know how well that did… Anyway, the Aurion promises to be a different story. As I mentioned earlier in the week, the Toyota Aurion Advertising Campaign is now in full force and Its hard for me to imagine any private buyer going out of their way to get behind the wheel of a new Holden VE Commodore or a Ford Falcon when they have so much more choice.
So I reiterate the question, are Ford and Holden really scared of Toyota’s new almighty Aurion? Hell yes. It should be obvious to most people that buying a Ford Falcon or a Holden Commodore is like buying a your clothes from Lowes. Its boring, its uninspiring and it means you have absolutely no taste or sense of individualism whatsoever. Is the Aurion going to cure this? Probably not, but it goes a long way.
Holden had been pimping the Holden VE Commodore and WM Statesmen & Caprice range for some time before their release. The car that would change the Commodore’s image as a boring, fleet car. Did it work? Not really, I admit, the SS Commodore and the HSV VE range of cars look a lot better than their predecessors, but then again, for the price of an SS Commodore, there is so much more choice.
So now enters the all the Toyota Aurion, powered by a 200kW engine and achieving a fuel economy of under 10L/100km (Commodore vs Aurion fuel consumption), on paper it seems like its the best car you can buy for your money. In reality? I can’t say, we are working hard to get our hands on the Toyota Aurion for a test drive, that should happen soon, in the mean time, how are the guys at Ford and Holden going to combat the Aurion?
I mean how can you advertise against the Aurion? 200kw, 9.9L/100km fuel economy, and for once, it even looks good! Where does it fall? Its a front-wheel-drive. This isn’t to say that it doesn’t handle well or that its any less of a car compared to the falcon or commodore, but its different, and I am forever amazed as to why Toyota wont just bite the bullet and go rear-wheel-drive in order to create a truly better competitor to Ford and Holden.
Where else does the Toyota Aurion fall? Think about it, as a private buyer these days, when you go shopping for a family car, do you really wanna be just another Commodore or Falcon driver? Now if I extend that to, do you really wanna be a Toyota driver? How many people are willing to stand up and say yes to that? Why wouldn’t you go for a Honda Accord or a Subaru Liberty or heck even a BMW? Money off course! Why waste money on a Honda, Subaru or BMW when I can get a cheap Ford, Holden and now Toyota.
Well my friends, you should read about the depreciation of Australian vehicles. Whilst you save a few thousand dollars to begin with, the value of your beloved Commodore or Falcon depreciates so much in the first few years that you would have really been better of with the Honda or Subaru. What about the Aurion? Hows does that fare when it comes to depreciation? No one really knows yet, but if we look at the Toyota Camry, a base model 2005 Toyota Camry Altise Sedan (4dr Man 5sp 2.4i) has dropped around $7,000 of its value in just a year! Off course you have to take account the introduction of the new Camry this year, but nonetheless its not good! If you think about, $7000 in a year works out to nearly $20/day in depreciation!
Will the Aurion be a success? Only time will tell. Will it scare Holden and Ford and cause them to rethink their family sedans? Most probably, but only to the extent of adding some more features and perhaps realizing that a V6 (or inline 6 for the falcon) matched a four-speed auto is not what the Australian public is after. Nevertheless but if I was hedging my bets, I would really hope that the Australian car buyers wake up and realize that there is so much more choice now than ever before! Give the non-traditional family car a chance, they will surprise you!
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Probably an obvious statement but isn’t it the fleet sales that will ultimately decide whether the Aurion is a success or not?
I have a mate that sells earth-moving equipment and he would much rather drive a Toyota around the country than his Commodore because it keeps breaking down but his company wouldn’t even think about a fleet agreement with Toyota. Isn’t that sort of thinking considered unaustralian!
ITS A MAZDA IN DISGUISE
You are right Elleffe,
most companies tend not to go with the Toyota option, even though its a better deal.
It “reflects” on the companies image as not being Australian, it is a stupid mentality which shows lack of understanding
My 2 cents,
If Aussie just look for Australian Product to buy without care its quality, yes, you can keep the product in AU, but not the World…
Hmmm. In the latest Wheels magazine the Aurion did not fare so well against Commodore, Falcon or even the 380. It didn’t have the best fuel economy either over the same conditions…..
.
Depending on what someone wants from a car, Aurion may not be the large car answer.
.
Straight line speed? Aurion has it over base (or just up from base) Commodore, falcon, and 380. need to corner with some verve, basically forget it. It’s all relative though. I’m no Commodore or Holden fan, but aren’t Holden exporting Commodores globally ? The VE architecture and underpinnings are also the Global GM large car base for other GM products. Can’t be all bad then.
phhh, its still a toyota and its STILL ugly.
if the aurion is scoring better in almost every comparison to commodore and falcon why wouldnt they be scared? theyre a good car, but damn they look foul.
Any new competition in a controlled market is a good thing. It makes all brands involved work harder to intice the buyer to their product.
In regards to styling all cars are starting to look very similar due to GM, Ford, Toyota going for global appeal. Take away the front & rear paneling and the cars look the same. IE; Aerodynamics & lines of door panels & windows in Aurion & VE mirror BMW.
Value for money I would have to say “Aurion” over VE.
Aurion AT-X vs VE Omega
Price pretty much the same except VE A/c is extra
6spd Auto vs 4spd
6Airbags vs 2airbags
VSC & Traction vs only traction
200kw 9.9ltr vs 190kw 10.2ltr
$120 per service for 3yr/60,000km vs ????
But hey they are all great cars & in the end the individual makes the decision on which vehicle suits the company or families needs the best.
In my case value for money and safety is what I’m looking for with a young family.. So Aurion has my vote.
interseting comments on the aurion,
yes it maybe a good car and all but who am i to say i dont own one. I think it is just the ripples from the splash it made when it entered the market. thats right it chose beautifully the timing to enter the market.
just when people were getting over the entry the Ba falcon had and the changes they brought and suddenly they brought out the aurion. WOW something new !! Ok why not wait 2 years and release it with the new falcon in 2008??
I think the question should be are toyota scared to provide a direct comparison with say ford?
cause lets see ford are already into a lot of the features that Glenn mentioned above as being “toyota specials”
6 speed auto
6 airbags are there but maybe not on the base or for an extra charge i bet that will change with the new model though
vsc or something the same is available
200kw vs 190kw well we’ll let the torque figures do the talking there have you checked them out??? we all know with out torque power is nothing.the power figure is what they promote because people can relate to it better and if you wanted awesome power you’d grab yourself a turbo xr6 anyway (not to say 200kw aint sharp)
fuel economy? well if you are really trying to save .3l (36c for 100k) well may be you should buy an e-gas falcon and halve your fuel costs
as for servicing Ford tried FREE servicing to 60,000kms with the AU 11’s but quickly realised what it was costing them. so i couldnt imagine the partly absorbed cost of servicing to last for ever,
just to cap (dont get me wrong i dont hate toyotas) just wandering if the aurion will be remembered when ford brings out its new platform next year?
cause toyota only struck when ford stopped winning awards for its now 5 year old falcon base
why would you buy a aurion it has no guts! get a bloody falcon or commodore i would rather be seen in something with performance not something that would break down at 150km/h
We were in the market late06 ,was dissapointed with Aurion,only 500kg unbraked tow capacity,poor rear seating(too low,too far back,poor vision to side due to Cpillar.Foot operated park brake.
Sorry just did nothing for me.
As for Commodore VE,too big and ugly in the base models,too big a turning circle for the missus in the woolies car park.Iam sure they are a great driving car on the open country road.
Looked at Falcon but couldn’topen the wallet, too hard to get in & out without bashing your head and bootspace compromised with floor levels all over the place.
Ended up with Sonata V6 Elite all the leather and air bags etc at a good price,plus 5year 130K warranty.
Excellent legroom andvision from the rear,very quiet,smooth trans,huge flat floor boot.
As much stick as the commodore but not as involving a drive ,bland steering feel with a bit of torque steer if you really push it.
No street cred with the rev-heads but so far a very good car.
As for resale its no worse than the rest in this price /size category,we’ll keep it for three years and then review the situation again.
I have driven 2 Aurion Sportivo’s todate and they have been an excellant drive. Power was plentiful with an abundant of ‘ooompf’, Handling very respectful, brakes snappy, extremely refined while the quality and fit-n-finish way above the typical Commodore and Falcon.
Combine this with the excellant package of comfort and safety aswell as all your typical Toyota qualities of refinement, quality, reliability, dependability and durability and the Aurion is a damn fine car indeed.
I thoughly recommend a test drive because you will probably end up buying one. My thoughts – an excellant family car.
QUOTE = why would you buy a aurion it has no guts! get a bloody falcon or commodore i would rather be seen in something with performance not something that would break down at 150km/h
Lol no guts…. more power than the competition, someone obviously has no idea what they are talking about, particularly when you make reference to an Aurion breaking down despite these cars being much more reliable then their counterparts.
As for ‘Ray Giddings’… time will tell with the old Hyundais, you get all those features for the same price as every other car because costs have been cut… not becuase they are a nice company. So the reliability and quality is something to be desired in these cheaper Korean cars.
Paul,
you should know better than reading only power figures to tell the story. have a look at the torque figures. do people know what torque is. if you understand computers its like promoting a 4ghz processor (but with only 8 mb of ram). i am no computer genius but i know that the 4ghz quickly counts for nothing.
also on the quality, take a look at this posting….
http://www.caradvice.com.au/29.....ment-16410
and there is also one out on the prius just to name a couple.
and for comfort ill still say falcon has it all over the toyota. have you seen the cloth trim they use too?? it is the worst example i have seen of pilling an a motorvehicle, second only to flanelette bed sheets
How is Camry Upper Medium and Aurion is considered a Large car.
Aurion is nothing but a replacement for the old VIENTA! At least Avalon had a unique body and was physically bigger than Camry.
Aurion looks too small to taken seriously as a C’Dore/Falcon competitior.
I think its “to date” sales show that Toyota isnt fooling anybody.
Especially as the add show us it can outbrake a ten year old VR/VS C’dore.(Without any electronic aids)
A V6 Camry is never going to seriously compete with the “proper” large cars in our market.
How does the sales look with Aurion added to Camry like the Vientas were.
1954 (Aurion) plus 2027 (Camry) equals 3181. C’dore 5001. Even the ageing Falcon manged 2028.
I bet Holden is having a major panic attack!!!!!
QUOTE = Paul,
you should know better than reading only power figures to tell the story. have a look at the torque figures. do people know what torque is. if you understand computers its like promoting a 4ghz processor (but with only 8 mb of ram). i am no computer genius but i know that the 4ghz quickly counts for nothing
Yes I know mate… but in this case it has no major effect, the Aurion IS faster (it is stupid even arguing this as its FACT… numerous videos circulating showing it). It might not have the same effortless acceleration that pulls you back in your seat like a Falcon etc, which is where torque comes into it… but its not that big of a difference as the Aurion is a fair bit lighter then both Falcon and Commodore AND it has a 6 speed tranny which by all accounts does a great job at masking its relative low down torque. Soooo there isnt any evidence of its ‘lack of torque’ down low and it smashes the competition up high in the RPM… you should know better then to just go off power figures when a number of other things play a role in the way that power gets effectively to the wheels!
QUOTE = A V6 Camry is never going to seriously compete with the “proper” large cars in our market… 1954 (Aurion) plus 2027 (Camry) equals 3181. C’dore 5001. Even the ageing Falcon manged 2028.
How can it compete… well Id say winning best large car means its competing alright!! Im not one to deny its not really a large car, but do consumers really care… they compare it and even desptie its ’size’ disadvantage its still a better package, only abit less interior room, more powerful engine, more refined, better quality, better reliablity. As for sales, I would say they are worried, unlike Holden Toyota doesnt fully depend on the Aurion+Camry, afterall there is this car called the Corolla which is Australias and the worlds most popular car… while Holden does fully depdend on its Commodore sales. And FYI the only thing keeping the Commodore afloat sales wise are fleet sales, they sell 85% of cars to fleet… while the people that actually use their OWN money to buy cars, and as a resutl choose the best car for the money, go over to the Toyota camp cos I dont think anywhere near 85% of Aurions are fleet sales (I could stand corrected though… albeit unlikley)!
QUOTE = also on the quality, take a look at this posting….
http://www.caradvice.com.au/29…..ment-16410
and there is also one out on the prius just to name a couple.
HAHAHA just looked at your link, ok Toyotas reputation of quality and reliablity which has been built up over 20 or so years is now gone because a Camry has a headlight dimmer switch recall. You really are scraping the bottom of the barrel mate… and its rich coming from someone who obviously supports Holden when you consider the recalls they had just after the cars release, fuel pump and seat belt – now these are issues Id be worried about, a seat belt not doing its job seems alittle more concnering then a headlight that will either flicker or turn off MOMEMTARILY lol. People in glass houses…
Paul ill clear 2 things up now. there must be 2 Andrews out here and i did not belong to the camry/vienta comment. i will now address myself as Andrew M. and i am nowhere near a holden fan either.
Ford actually
Tell you what i have found that there is a lot of contradicting evidence about the falcon/aurion race. some people say they have seen different results so what are we to believe. i dont focus on either it actually.
yes i buy your comment about more than power figures. but you started it with only stating the aurion had more “power”, then i mentioned “torque” then you went with “weight”. weight really only matters when getting it off the line. so when driving on roads (as they are designed for) who would you say would overtake better or merge from 60-100?
also in these “tests” which models are being used?
manuals? 6sp? 5Sp?
or autos 4sp? 6sp?
same drivers? really that makes a difference too. are these a true fair test
and if you are really worried about getting to the end of 400m quicker wouldnt you buy an xr6 turbo? really what is .1 or a sec or whatever it is anyway
Paul,
also what i was just pointing out by posting that recall notice for toyota is perhaps you should stop “dissing” other manufacturers quality when every make seems to have some sort of flaws and yes even your beloved toyota.
and once again i am not a holden fan (but rather a ford fan) so your seat belt and fuel pump comments wont hurt me.
Yes all have issues, but its about which manufacterers have a lesser tendency for issues. Toyota have a rock solid reputation in this department, a few recalls isnt going to change 20 years of this… while Holden etc have never had a rep and they continue to have recall after recall. Thats the difference.
As for acceleration of Aurion, Im willing to concede such factors may play a role in the car beating the Faclon by alot as they are even in power but the Aurion has less torque (although you mention yourself less weight helps standing start which was tested in the race I am referring to!)… but the Aurion will smash the 380 and Commodore every day of the week, no matter what variables you try and consider. As for a rolling start, youd think the Ford n Co would have the advantage, but from what Ive read I dont think the Aurion is lacking, afterall on the roll the Aurion will be revving up closer to its peak torque which is relatively high up! ANYWAY my initial post was about some guy saying the Aurion had no guts compared to the Commodore and Falcon… I have proven this quite conclusively to be a lie as at the very worst its equal to the competitors!
you dont make sence Paul,
you agree with my point on the falcon having higher torque and being better on a rolling start, and then you say you think or have read that the aurion would win because it would be revving near its peak torque??
what the?? both cars would be revving at peak torque if driven properly.
Also whats the good of having your torque only arrive at high revs like you say the aurion would. have it kick in down low where you can actually use it like the falcon does.
a. In regards to rolling start, I said that the Aurion supposedly lacks low down torque… so naturally the advantage of these cars with low down torque should be off the line as it takes time for the Aurion to get up and going! Off a rolling start the Aurion is nearly or at peak torque just like the other vehicle, so low down torque has less of an effect if any. Overall torque is the issue in this case and although the Aurion has less (because it has less disspalcement afterall) it also weighs less. So rolling start is also debateable as to which is better. For the record the Falcon youd think would win… but not by heaps. THIS HAS BEEN MY POINT ALL ALONG in relation to the comment by some bogan that the Aurion lacks ‘guts’… which is wrong.
b. Well its called dual VVT-i… the good of it? 9.9L per 100km… thats the good of it!!! And although I have seen the torque curve of the Aurion yet, dont be fooled, peak torque isnt everything… having 80%+ torque down low is enough to get the car up and running… especially with its weight advantage. Its not going to pull you back in the seat as much yes, but its more than adequate. An example would be a V6 Camrys which Ive owned many of which have 90% of torque at 2500RPM… around 260NM. Although these cars weighed less, that amount of torque was more then enough to push you back in your seat from the line! So if the Aurion even only has 80% torque down low that is adequate in my eyes for daily driving! And its a worthwile tradeoff as I said, you get good fuel efficiency under normal driving conditions while under hard driving (ie higher RPMS) the car starts to shine.
Paul,
weight in the cars we talk about would have pretty much no effect in a rolling start. an example would be a car with a v8 option. v8 = a bit more weight and mostly more torque than the 6cyl version. once the v8 starts to wind out and get over the weight thing the v8 will win every time.
and you just proved my point of low down torque helping off the line too which is why i said earlier that i think it would be a pretty even start. before you go any further can you tell me exactlly which model ford and toyota you saw in this video.
and for 2 the falcon gets pretty much the same fuel figures as the toyota any how. depends what kind of driving you do one is geared for a bit more city style and the other more so the hwy.
and if its fuel$$$ you want to save wouldnt you jump into a dedicated gas model?? cause as you say under normal driving conditions its got great fuel efficiency/savings$$ (we are talking like half) and plenty of power to get you where you are going
Paragraph One:
Yes but a V8 puts on the same different in weight the Aurion has over the Falcon and Commodore with oh only an extra 150Nm+ of torque!!! We are talking about not that masssive of a difference in torque with a lighter car. As for the video, they were the current base model Falcons, Commodore, Aurion and 380.
Paragraph Two:
Gas powered costs more if you buy it from the dealer or costs to get it installed and it loses some power… its also not available at every petrol station. I forgot the exact figures but the Aurion is like 2L per 100km/h more efficient (mind you the Aurion figures are spot on… from what Ive heard from various people the best they have got is 7.5L per 100km, the worst 14L per 100km… the average 10L per 100km in their Aurions)… now that difference doesnt sound like much but per a 70L tank it equates to the Aurion getting an extra 100km! If your going through a tank a week… that is $600 per year you are saving… in the fastest car on the market!
paul, i just checked the fuel figures cause i knew it wasnt 2L difference it is more like .2L. i pulled up figures on the falcon at what i thought it was at 10.2L. that brings your $600 down to a realistic $87 a year
also a gas falcon will set you back $2,400 extra including auto so you could say it only sets you back $1,400 and also the government will kick in $1,000 as well so really a $400 outlay. so worst case if you work on $2,400 (just to make sure we are not giving it a head start) and only doing say 350k’s a week you would break even in like a year (using all round figures). yes it is not at every servo but becoming more and more available. i dont know many that dont have it either. it is as common as premium unleaded though and there is plenty of vehicles that are designed to take that now.
power loss might surprise you aswell its not that much. the rule of thumb they put out “is like putting the A/C on” i think the new falcon should have injected gas though which might give petrol a scare. i would love to see ford do a turbo gas and set a bit of a standard for what can be achieved
oh and the v8 comment…..
i was using that as an example to amplify the point on torque on a larger scale. it is easier to see the result if you explode the figures. im not saying it would be the same difference, i am merely pointing out it would work on the same theory/scale
Tbh Im sceptical about those official figures, from a number of real world examples they all consume more… but the difference was larger then 0.2L per 100km. And even more interesting is the VE Omega…. on paper exactly 1L more consumption with 20kw less and only alittle more torque!!! So costs you more fuel ($300 per year) for less power… a truly inefficient engine.
As for the Falcon with gas, well that must be abit cheaper… I know the Omega is gas injected thats why there is a bigger price difference.
On a slight tangent, was suprised at the cost of the base Falcon with 6 Speed… $37,500… from redbook. And if I read correctly no Stability control or side airbags standard. That certainly places the Aurion which has both of those features and more at $35,??? (would be close to $36k) in a favourable light.
Paul,
i know real world examples aswell the show that falcons get better fuel economy than what ford preach.
and for the record it is known the falcon is better on fuel than VE (im sure you know that) which would put your original figure of 2L nowhere near the mark if you say the comm is 1L worse.
Also holden doesnt do a dedicated gas model, so the duel fuel element would add a bit more too.
also i am interested how do you know the comm has gas injection?? the ford site labels their gas motor as gas injection but i know it is not a true injection setup. correct me if im wrong but i doubt holden has a true injected gas system as i remember them having troubles in putting gas on their new motor at the start because of certain plastic parts in the inlet manifold area and the harm that would be caused if a backfire ocurred
ford is trying to put true injected gas systems in but they are apparently facing copyright issues. they were meant to have it in at the start of 2006.
as for toyota offering more for money, id say its because they have to. it is a common stratogy for any product trying to break in to the market. mitsu 380 offers a lot as standard too in comparison. if they come in offering the same noone would look at them they have to load em up with features even to get a look in with reviewers. its the harsh reality
and if you look even further why do holden offer even less than ford??? because they are already sales leader so why should they care what they give you.
Paul just to add,
i didnt think the 6sp auto added $3,500?? are you talking onroad costs?? (they vary a bit)
i just copied something to show you how ford responds to the features new comers offer here it is……
For just $36,240*, Falcon ES is brimming with extras. Including 6-speed automatic transmission, Dynamic Stability Control and dual-zone climate control.
The package also includes 17″ alloy wheels#, Sports Control Blade Independent Rear Suspension, 6-disc CD, leather wrapped steeering wheel and more.
how does that compare to a base aurion now?? how many does the aurion not have?? i can name a few
Paul im still waiting for a reply on this one too
http://www.caradvice.com.au/31...../#comments
thought you may have lost touch as it went to the archive if you want to respond put it with this one i know u will watch this one!!!
You are right its not only gas, its dual, but thats better! Im prity sure its gas injected:
http://www.caradvice.com.au/99.....range-lpg/
The description is that it injects gas directly into the ‘engine’… dunno if they mean into the intake or directly into the cylinder with that description, but for all intensive purposes its gas injection.
And going back to your calcs about Gas, although the govt rebate does make it more effective… you must remember gas powered engines consume 6L per 100km/h more in fuel! So Im not sure about recouping the money in 1 year! Also you said previously gas was like having A/C on, I have just read the gas powered Falcon has 156kw… a loss of 44kw… lol Im not sure about Fords but my A/C might loses 5kw or so not 44kw! Thats a hefty amount. The Holden dual system only loses 5kw and 5Nm, so its better, albeit a newer model. All this info is contained in the link below:
http://www.webwombat.com.au/mo.....modore.htm
QUOTE = and if you look even further why do holden offer even less than ford??? because they are already sales leader so why should they care what they give you.
Yeah I know… thats partly why the attitude of some bogans that Holden is great and they dont consider any other brands like Toyota or even Ford is STUPID. Competition is a good thing, contrary to their belief that Toyota are bad… they provide innovation and set benchmarks like the massive features on their base model that the others have to match. The problem is bogans who have closed minds and buy whatever crap Holden dish up, so then they cut costs and dog the Australian public essentially and offer the Omega with its 4 speed tranny, no A/C, least fuel efficient, least powerful, not stability control etc… because they know people will still buy it!!! Those who do show such extreme loyaly are just doing themselves over, these big companies dont care about you, they care about $$$… and thats applies to Toyota, Ford and I know its hard for some to believe but Holden and the rest.
QUOTE = i didnt think the 6sp auto added $3,500?? are you talking onroad costs?? (they vary a bit)
i just copied something to show you how ford responds to the features new comers offer here it is
Ive seen it now, it was 2006 not 2007…. again evidence that Toyotas competition is having a positive effect – they are offering more features for less!
QUOTE = For just $36,240*, Falcon ES is brimming with extras. Including 6-speed automatic transmission, Dynamic Stability Control and dual-zone climate control.
The package also includes 17″ alloy wheels#, Sports Control Blade Independent Rear Suspension, 6-disc CD, leather wrapped steeering wheel and more.
how does that compare to a base aurion now?? how many does the aurion not have?? i can name a few
Ummm none. That Falcon is just under $1500 more then the Aurion, the features list is given here:
http://www.redbookasiapacific......y=TOYO06KM
The Aurion still nearly has DOUBLE. Mind you the Falcon ES despite Ford trying to con customers with 17 inch useless rims, useless sports suspension or lol leather wrapped steering wheel (all nice and cheap for them suprise suprise) STILL doesnt offer side airbags std, which if you were to get as an option I would say is around $2000+ and something that a car wanting $1500 more then the Aurion should have AT THE LEAST! Mind you given this fact, you are now getting into Aurion Sportivo country which costs $38k and on top of the ATX has even more features then the ES:
http://www.redbookasiapacific......2=FORD07KO
paul, i lost this page for a bit but im back to it now
1. tell me why is duel fuel better there is pros and cons for both. id say more pros for dedicated. for one how much do you value your boot space?
2. i read the info on the holden system and yes it must be an actual injected system i can reason to that now that i have read that it is an aftermarket system that has to be fitted. then also i would say any manufacturer that doesnt roll a car off the production line prob cant claim rights to producing a car on gas.
3. ok just for you lets revisit figures. (you seem to have something against gas) well the holden says you save $1000 a year, so with an out a pocket expense of $1900 it would take 1.9 years to recoup on your holden.
ill fine tune some figures for you on the falcon just to put your problem with my figures to rest.
ill work on 700k’s a week like you have been using earlier (tank a week in your aurion)
and gas at 52c and unleaded at 1.25
700k’s in your aurion costs you $87.50
700k’s in your gas falcon costs you $57.87
difference = 29.63 per week = you save $1540.76 a year
out of pocket expence for gas falcon = $400 = you break even in 13.5 weeks
NOW PICK AT THAT
4. yes power loss rule of thumb like A/C on. yes it works with most. maybe not with the new falcon but it is the rule of thumb out there. the falcon used to work on that too but the latest version has let that slip for some reason. ford has changed what their gas set up a bit for why i dont know but the last set up lost i think 8-10 kw and gained 5nm torque. yes it gained torque. im sure they are going to make huge improvements with the new model though and the new name of “G6E” suggests they will have a product really worth marketing
5. yes thats right companies only care about making money. funny that. im sure they arent in business to do favours and the reason holden is doin pretty good in sales is that they care more about marketing and image than any other car manufacturer now i can see past this but you have to give that to em if they can jag these sales no matter how that makes success. i think it is this marketing success that ford and toyota are starting to follow. where they will get caught out is when other companies gain same marketing and image status their poor quality will show.
6. well the features list might look longer on paper but you obviously didnt read it. the aurion states a lot of things that just go unsaid on the falcon. for instance since when was rear view mirrors and sunvisors something to sprook about? turn it up!!
7. and whooo settle down with the name calling on 17″ rims, sports suspension, leather wheel etc. that all costs money too and those 3 alone are worth more than what you “GUESS” side airbags are worth. and news flash people would choose nice wheels and sports suspension over extra airbags every day! they could advertise it as a choice airbags or shiny wheels and sports… but even you would choose wheels.
ok and with the sportivo extras what do you actually get for the extra $4k?? apart from…..
to read from your quote
17 inch useless rims or lol leather wrapped steering wheel (all nice and cheap for them suprise suprise)
now i would say the sportivo is a fair features comparison with the ES falcon and that makes the aurion now $2,560 dearer and you can keep your side airbags cause it still would leave the falcon 1k ahead
1. Alot of places dont have gas, if your running out… you dont want to be in that situation
3. Fair enough… still the Falcon loses alot of power! I wouldnt saying Im against gas but I just dont care about it… if we are talking future as well its hybrid / hydrogen cell not gas!
5. I have shown you are completely wrong in this regard. They sell 81% to fleets and aernt even in the top 5 for private sales where marketing etc actually has an effect!!! And my point is I know they are businesses, but you dont shyte on your loyal followers by bringin out a Lumina after they have all bought Omegas because their loyalty is what is keeping you in business. Bad practice… and Toyota who does the exact opposite, is reaping the benefits!
6. I knew you would say this, there are a handful… but the Falcon also mentions things like this, admit the Aurion has more features!
7. I wouldnt… we are talking about base model vehicles, people dont give a rats about suspension, they want safety, these are people who want a car to get them from a – z! Those costs are also nothing, I will give a rough example cos Im not going to go into huge detail, offering a true addition feature say airbags will cost Ford lets say $1000…. whereas offering sports suspension costs them $1000 MINUS the suspension they wont have to put in it and can be used on other vehciles $500 = $500 cost to Ford. This is a crude example, but you get the idea. Not to menton leather steering wheel lol… come’on as if that isnt low cost!
QUOTE = now i would say the sportivo is a fair features comparison with the ES falcon and that makes the aurion now $2,560 dearer and you can keep your side airbags cause it still would leave the falcon 1k ahead
Haha no… the Sportivo has exterior styling changes, significant suspension changes, significant interior changes, and a few more features. The problem is Toyota offer such a great package in the ATX which has it over the ES (no side airbags no esp etc) so then the Sportivo doesnt seem on paper to be heaps better but it is when you take this into account. And considering side airbags are at least $2000 (so not $1k ahead but $500) and stability who knows maybe $1000 and others features I couldnt be bothered looking up….the Sportivo even using your logic is still better value!
Paul,
1. also a lot of places do have gas then dont, and if you run out dont you call racq or racv or whoever you are with? and what sort of a planned trip is it if you leave with bugger all in your tank?
3. well hydrogen is a long way off and hybrids give you even less power. gas is here now and it is a cheap to run green car that has power over the hybrids right now. and how long do you think it will take to get refuelling stations for hydrogen? when it comes it will have the same supply problems as gas at the start
5. who cares sales are sales if you want i can think of excuses to discount toyota sales but its the runs on the board that count.(have i told you i dont like holden either??) holden has always looked after fleets so fleets look after holden. and every manufacturer brings out newer models that offer more than last hence the lumina. thats pretty much what it is a new model. thats the thing about holden they have a quicker turn over of models giving you a reason to upgrade. and i dont see people getting upset about it they have been doing it for years.
6. well its true the aurion listed a pile of things the falcon has but was unsaid admit that!
i say the features list is comparible. all i hear you going on about is side airbags.
7. wrong. people buy base models cause they cant afford the sports models. people do care about suspension and wheels. there is a lot of base models out there that people put big wheels on and lower them, if you dont see them you are blind. and how come sports models sell more than luxury models?
yes your figures were rough,
yes suspension is about $500 option, then the wheels are $1700 option and yes we will forget about the $200 for the steering wheel but its still $2200. yes steering wheel is low cost put it all makes the feel of the car.
8. ok so you are blind if you cant see the exterior styling diffefences on the ES falcon. and you know the falcon gets sports suspension so why are you talking it up on your sportivo. and the interior isnt significant it changes about the same as the falcon does which isnt really that much.
and dont bother trying to find extra features cause they arent there. oh did you find an option cost for parking sensors yet too? to sum up they are comparible at this level on features and cost. the toyota does not run away with it like you are making out
QUOTE = 3. well hydrogen is a long way off and hybrids give you even less power. gas is here now and it is a cheap to run green car that has power over the hybrids right now. and how long do you think it will take to get refuelling stations for hydrogen? when it comes it will have the same supply problems as gas at the start
Actually Honda already have hydrogen cell cars, and I believe they are releasing one into production in the U.S by around 2010.
QUOTE = 5. who cares sales are sales if you want i can think of excuses to discount toyota sales but its the runs on the board that count.(have i told you i dont like holden either??) holden has always looked after fleets so fleets look after holden. and every manufacturer brings out newer models that offer more than last hence the lumina. thats pretty much what it is a new model. thats the thing about holden they have a quicker turn over of models giving you a reason to upgrade. and i dont see people getting upset about it they have been doing it for years.
Toyota done… same with Honda to I think. Like they add features, but they never DISCOUNT their vehicles… they will for example with the limited addition Euro charge alittle more for alot more features. The BMW exec put it well, although he referred to luxury brands only when I think it applies to most… you dont discount, it cheapens ur image.
QUOTE = 7. wrong. people buy base models cause they cant afford the sports models. people do care about suspension and wheels. there is a lot of base models out there that people put big wheels on and lower them, if you dont see them you are blind. and how come sports models sell more than luxury models?
Thats a matter of opinion… if I already have $35k to spend Im sure I could save alittle more for the higher version. Imo people go for base models out of neccessity when it comes to private sales, rather then wanting some sports car. If you logic was the case, no one would buy the case models at all because they look like crap and instead get a cheaper car which looks bettter… doesnt happen heaps.
QUOTE = 8. ok so you are blind if you cant see the exterior styling diffefences on the ES falcon. and you know the falcon gets sports suspension so why are you talking it up on your sportivo. and the interior isnt significant it changes about the same as the falcon does which isnt really that much.
It gets sports ‘indepdent rear suspension’. The sportivo has more then that… I believe it obviously has stiffer suspension (so coils and shocks) and also additional bracing. Its abit more comprehensive then the ES. And its exterior styling is far more noticable, the ES still looks plain.
QUOTE = and dont bother trying to find extra features cause they arent there. oh did you find an option cost for parking sensors yet too? to sum up they are comparible at this level on features and cost. the toyota does not run away with it like you are making out
Lol I have proven it mate! I mention paying extra for side airbags and ESP just to compare… but going off current Falcon these aernt even options!!! So the Aurion has it all over the Falcon and even in the new Lumina.
Just one major error…. when I said Indepdent rear suspension I meant ’sports’ IRS
Paul,
1. we are talking about now not 3 yrs away cause i can tell you ford are working on a turbo xr6 hydrogen car.
2. toyota do so add special models the altise sports. remember that?? and i see they are discounting camrys at the moment like 29k drive out. dont say they dont do it and what does it matter. they do it to boost sales, to give em a spur on otherwise they go a bit stale.
3. what im saying is if people have the choice it would be wheels over airbags eg. people think like…….. hey i can afford another 3k – 3.5k hmmmmm airbags or sporty set up?? yep of course sports. take a look why does the XR6 out sell the fairmont and the SV6 outsell the calais?
4. well looks are a matter of opinion but you cant argue you are getting prob the same value put in to exterior styling. and the toyota needs more bracing cause its FWD. a strut brace for eg. wont do s**t on a RWD car. they dont need them. now here is a fact, the falcon handles better than the aurion. it has just fallen into 2nd behind the commodore thanks to their improvements
5.well stop laughing at yourself. you havent proven anything. yes you can point out 2 things for an extra $2500+ yet the falcon still has a couple of distinct features on its own. maybe the extra the falcon still has like parking sensors etc arent as expensive as airbags but thats why i call that coupled with the $2500+ a fair test for value.
also just because things arent listed on extras/options lists doesnt mean they arent on offer. for eg toyota doesnt list a towbar?
and for the record ford does list side airbags on options list, and i am still waiting to hear what “PILE” of features toyota still has over the ford APART FROM AIRBAGS!!! because that is where that $2500 premium comes in.
P.S. ford does have the driver aids of ABS, EBD, DSC
im sure ford are scared of the toyota aurion..but holden are far from it! soon holden might have some challenge with toyota..and ford will just give up and try and battle with hyundai or…kia
I really dought it!
I bought an Aurion , FANTASTIC CAR , go`s like a rocket but safer , makes holden and ford seem second rate , love it
Whilst I admit Toyota do build and engineer some decent cars built to last.. It’s often their exterior/unterior design that lets them down.
As Holden Designers Richard Fellazzo and Peter Hughes said.
The way a car looks is one of the most important things inorder for a car to sell and [hopefully] become a success – particularly as these days its all about image and the car says so much about the owner
If a car looks good it will attract potential customers and make them want to have a closer look..
They walk up to it open the door and if the interior looks good it will make them want to have a seat..
When they sit inside slide behind the wheel if it feels good ergonomic they’ll want to start her up..
If the engine sounds good it will make them want to go for a test drive and if the cars handling and performance is good it will make them want to buy one..
Then the only decision they have to make is which colour they want
And again, I’ll say. “I really dought it!”
well i dont DOUBT it
There is no doubt Aurion has more features than Commo and Falcon even new model for example, 6 speed auto and side curtain airbags are already included on all aurion models but not on commo and falcon.
I think ppl should have a look up the web pages showing the pricing and packages from Toyota, Holden and Ford before they say shyts.